The Venus Project

[Snowalker]

After being exposed to the zeitgeist series of videos like so many of us, I began to look more closely at The Venus Project and Jacques Fresco. I was particularly struck by his essays on monetary vs resource based economic systems and the use of the Scientific Method as the basis for determining the most efficacious direction for humanity as a whole to move in now that we are understanding - through experience - the fallacy of the current pathocratic led system.

I have not seen much discussion on his ideas, which seems strange to me given the similar approach (i.e. The Scientific Method) that both organizations are taking. With the current dissolution of the dollar as reserve currency this seems like the perfect time to discuss and disseminate information on how to move into a non-monetary based system. This has the added benefit of removing players from the current system further reducing the movement of assets from the greater portion of humanity to the elite.

I think that the idea of a resource based economy has merit and would like to see more discussion on this topic.

 

[PepperFritz]

The Venus Project proposes a model for human civilization "based on human concern...where the primary function would be to maximize the quality of life rather than profits." They assert that "a world embracing the proposals advanced by The Venus Project ... would ensure a prosperous future for all the world's people".

Well, there are any number of better models for human civilization than the one we are living in, based on "human concern" and "quality of life", it's really not that hard to come up with one of those. The current impediment to the world adopting such models is the same as it as always been: Political Ponerology, political/social systems run by psychopaths which reward psychopathic behaviour. As far as I can see, the people behind the Venus Project seem to think that the only impediment is lack of awareness of other models, and that the solution lies in "education". There doesn't seem to be anything in their proposal that addresses exactly HOW the reality of political ponerology is to be eliminated and/or side-stepped.

Ya can't fix the problem if you don't know what the problem is in the first place.....

Information about The Venus Project can be read on their website:
_http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm

 

[Snowalker]

"There doesn't seem to be anything in their proposal that addresses exactly HOW the reality of political ponerology is to be eliminated and/or side-stepped."

And this is where I think there could be real collaboration. SOTT is the best there is in terms of understanding and identifying the ponerogenic in society and could be instrumental in helping this movement avoid getting ponerized. And when you say that "...there are any number of better models for human civilization than the one we're living in." what does that really mean? Fresco has in my opinion a pretty compelling model. Would you dismiss it out of hand simply because he does not address the 6% directly?

And what if the current situation exposes the banking cartel in ways they cannot cover? If there is no alternative for people to consider in that moment then what? Wouldn't that give the elite the opportunity to regroup, adjust their strategy and strike back? I don't want to get too far afield with hypothetical possibilities but my point here is that Fresco has something that is captivating the human imagination and spirit in ways that can help people move away from participating in (or in your words side-stepping) the "game" and wouldn't that be of real benefit?

For example, people in the area where I live (New England) are using alternative currencies and barter to avoid the pain and misery being inflicted upon them. They are learning that they don't need Federal Reserve Notes to live and interact with others in their communities. A database of people with goods and services is exactly what Fresco is talking about. That is a resource based economy. Fresco has the infrastructure and SOTT has the understanding of why this mode of living is necessary in order to render the elite impotent. I cannot think of two more powerful organizations on the planet whose collaboration could have immensely positive impact on our current situation.

 

[PepperFritz]

when you say that "...there are any number of better models for human civilization than the one we're living in." what does that really mean? Fresco has in my opinion a pretty compelling model.

That was not to detract from the potential effectiveness of Franco's model if it were ever adopted. It was meant to underline the fact that the problem is not the lack of a model based on "human concern" (of which many have been proposed, and even adopted, though only on a small-scale basis); the problem is that which prevents, and has always prevented, such models from being adopted and incorporated on a wide basis -- i.e. political ponerology.

SOTT is the best there is in terms of understanding and identifying the ponerogenic in society and could be instrumental in helping this movement avoid getting ponerized.

How so? I am not aware that anyone at SOTT/Cassiopaean Experiment had identified a means and method for escaping the reality of political ponerology, except within the context of a small, esoteric group. How do you know that the Venus Project is not already ponerized? What do you know about those who are funding it?

Would you dismiss it out of hand simply because he does not address the 6% directly?

Are you suggesting that only 6% of our population is ponerized? The point is that those who are at the top of the political food chain and make decisions affecting the whole are 100% ponerized, if not completely psychopathic. It doesn't matter how well thought out a proposed political/social model is, if it is unable to address/solve the problem that prevents it from being adopted on a widespread basis (or being ponderized in the process), I can't see the point of supporting it -- can you?

And what if the current situation exposes the banking cartel in ways they cannot cover?

What if it does? Do you honestly believe that those at the top do not have control over the current situation? Do you honestly believe they are "losing their grip" on their power? As the theatre of the latest presidency change-over shows, no matter how much the actors, scripts, and scenery changes, the play remains the same, and firmly in control of the directors.

If there is no alternative for people to consider in that moment then what? Wouldn't that give the elite the opportunity to regroup, adjust their strategy and strike back?

What makes you think that they are in danger of becoming "ungrouped", or that what is currently happening is not part of a greater strategy? The PTB have too many contingency plans in place to ever allow for a gap in power. Even when things may seem that way, it is only theatre created for the purpose of distraction. It would not be surprising to find that an enterprise like the Venus Project is actually funded by those it proposes to displace; what better way to distract the populace from the real problem than to get them to expend their energy, money, and hopes on the development of a model that they would never allow to get off the ground?

my point here is that Fresco has something that is captivating the human imagination and spirit in ways that can help people move away from participating in (or in your words side-stepping) the "game" and wouldn't that be of real benefit?

Not unless there is a specific and realistic strategy in place that is capable of "helping people move away from participating in the game". "Captivating" their "imagination and spirit" to believe in a pie-in-the-sky utopia that does not address the very real impediments it would face is not of "benefit" to anyone. One could even argue that it dangerously plays into the hands of the PTB (if it is not being orchestrated by the PTB itself).

For example, people in the area where I live (New England) are using alternative currencies and barter to avoid the pain and misery being inflicted upon them. They are learning that they don't need Federal Reserve Notes to live and interact with others in their communities. A database of people with goods and services is exactly what Fresco is talking about. That is a resource based economy.

It has always been possible for small communities to adopt more cooperative community-based practices, as long as they do not attract too much attention. History has shown that as soon as such practices show signs of becoming widespread, or turning into a "movement", they become co-opted by those wishing to limit their influence and/or make a profit from it.

Fresco has the infrastructure...

No, he doesn't. He just has a model, with no feasible way of side-stepping the decision-makers whose interests would not be served by such a model.

and SOTT has the understanding of why this mode of living is necessary in order to render the elite impotent.

There's a big difference between being able to recognize the potential benefits of a political/social model if it were to be adopted, and actually having the means to sidestep those who would never allow it to be adopted.

I cannot think of two more powerful organizations on the planet whose collaboration could have immensely positive impact on our current situation.

I think you overestimate the "powers" of both organizations.

The first step towards changing your world is changing yourself. And that means learning to see both yourself and the world around you as OBJECTIVELY as possible, not just through the prism of your own SUBJECTIVE wishful thinking. OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE, and the application of that knowledge, is the only means of protecting yourself from the ponerization of our society. Without it, you are simply "food", a sitting duck for anyone offering a new version of "Utopia"....

 

[Snowalker]

Forgive me for not including your comments here but first let me say that you are correct in my opinion on all of the responses you have just made. I am very cognizant of the "terror of the situation" and know that it is folly to think that any one attempt at "fighting back" as it were is doomed to failure. But I would like to talk more in terms of the evolutionary process.

What is it that brings a person into a change of thinking. According to Gurdjeiff it is shocks that cause a course change in one's perceptions. Sometimes big shocks are required and sometimes even the slightest little thing is enough to cause a person to completely reorient their perspective. The work that Fresco has done and by extension what Peter Joseph has done with the Zeitgeist videos, again IMHO, has been a useful shock to many people.

What I am trying to articulate here is an opportunity to bring our understanding of Ponerology to those who see Fresco's ideas and want to "run" with them but have no ability to protect themselves while doing so. Maybe I am engaging in an exercise of wishful thinking here but perhaps we are witnessing a jump in evolution that can be solidified.

 

[PepperFritz]

I know that it is folly to think that any one attempt at "fighting back", as it were, is doomed to failure.

It's nothing to do with whether one should or should not "fight back". I just do not see how investing in a societal-reorganization model that does not address political ponerology could ever "succeed" in what it purports to achieve.

What is it that brings a person into a change of thinking. According to Gurdjeiff it is shocks that cause a course change in one's perceptions.

Shocks can, potentially, act as catalysts for a "change in one's perceptions". More often they push people further into denial, causing them to burrow in deeper in their attitudes and beliefs; or, out of fear, align themselves with "powerful" people and organizations that they believe will "protect" them.; or simply paralyze them from being able to perceive and respond to what is happening around them (see Naomi Klein's book The Shock Doctrine).

The work that Fresco has done and by extension what Peter Joseph has done with the Zeitgeist videos, again IMHO, has been a useful shock to many people.

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean -- in what way are the videos "shocking"? And how do you know that the "shock" they provide are acting as catalysts for personal change in the way that Gurdjieff meant? How do you know that the "shock" is not causing viewers to be drawn to The Venus Project out of fear, or a misguided belief that this organization has the power to "save" them?

What I am trying to articulate here is an opportunity to bring our understanding of Ponerology to those who see Fresco's ideas and want to "run" with them but have no ability to protect themselves while doing so.

But if they were to have a full "understanding of Ponerology", they would see that the model for what it is: A pie-in-the-sky model of Utopia that does not address the reality of political ponerology. They would no longer wish to "run" with Fresco's ideas, because they would recognize that they are unrealistic, and in the wrong hands, even dangerous. They would "protect themselves" by not getting involved with The Venus Project, and finding more viable means of "protection".

You seem to believe that if people from SOTT/Cassiopaea Experiment were to join forces with The Venus Project, that the impediment of political ponerology would no longer exist. But that is not the case. Awareness of political ponerology does not give one the ability to eliminate it, or avoid it to the point of being able to implement a new international monetary system and social order.

Here's an analogy: Group A develops a model for developing sustainable agriculture in the desert regions of the world that fails to address the fact that such regions have no water. Group B already knows that there is no water in the desert, and actively tries to make people aware of that fact. Individual C thinks that if Group A joins forces with Group B, then the fact that there is no water in the desert will no longer be a problem and Group A's model can go ahead with success. Do you see the illogic of Individual C's belief? Neither groups have a solution to the problem of no water in the desert, the only difference is that Group B knows there is no water, and Group A is oblivious to the fact.

Maybe I am engaging in an exercise of wishful thinking here....

I think you are, FWIW. But others may view the subject differently....

 

[anart]

Forgive me for not including your comments here but first let me say that you are correct in my opinion on all of the responses you have just made.  I am very cognizant of the "terror of the situation" and know that it is folly to think that any one attempt at "fighting back" as it were is doomed to failure.  But I would like to talk more in terms of the evolutionary process.

What is it that brings a person into a change of thinking.  According to Gurdjeiff it is shocks that cause a course change in one's perceptions.  Sometimes big shocks are required and sometimes even the slightest little thing is enough to cause a person to completely reorient their perspective.  The work that Fresco has done and by extension what Peter Joseph has done with the Zeitgeist videos, again IMHO, has been a useful shock to many people.

What I am trying to articulate here is an opportunity to bring our understanding of Ponerology to those who see Fresco's ideas and want to "run" with them but have no ability to protect themselves while doing so.  Maybe I am engaging in an exercise of wishful thinking here but perhaps we are witnessing a jump in evolution that can be solidified.

Hi Snowalker, I think I see your point and I agree.  Ideally, a fusion of a new social model with the knowledge to protect it from Ponerization would be ideal.  I suppose, ultimately, it would come down to how open those who are 'running with' Fresco's model are to the information that all is not as it appears.  Historically, there is an idealism that tends to get in the way, however, I suppose there is no way of knowing what the outcome might be without trying it.  Are you at all involved with these people who are running with Fresco's ideas?  It might be an interesting experiment to introduce them to Ponerology to see the response.

Our reality is controlled - completely - so there is a tendency to assume that any movement allowed to 'move' is allowed to do so for a reason - however - one will never know if one doesn't try to find out, right?  :)

 

[Snowalker]

Hi Snowalker, I think I see your point and I agree. Ideally, a fusion of a new social model with the knowledge to protect it from Ponerization would be ideal. I suppose, ultimately, it would come down to how open those who are 'running with' Fresco's model are to the information that all is not as it appears. Historically, there is an idealism that tends to get in the way, however, I suppose there is no way of knowing what the outcome might be without trying it. Are you at all involved with these people who are running with Fresco's ideas? It might be an interesting experiment to introduce them to Ponerology to see the response.

I am just beginning to discuss ideas on their forum but wanted to get some feedback before I plunged ahead. I do think it is worth trying unless someone knows something negative about them that I am unaware of. So far the discussions that I am seeing indicate that a significant number of people active in the group called The ZeitGeist Movement seem to be dancing around the ponerology issue but there isn't anything substantive.

What I was looking for (and perhaps have found) is whether this growing organization has had previous contact with SOTT. It would appear that it has not and so I would like to pursue this line of communication to see where it leads.

 

[anart]

I am just beginning to discuss ideas on their forum but wanted to get some feedback before I plunged ahead. I do think it is worth trying unless someone knows something negative about them that I am unaware of.

I'm not personally well-informed enough about them to say anything one way or another. I would, however, keep in mind that we are living in a ponerized society and that any movement capable of making a difference is infiltrated fairly early on - so - to assume this is not the case in this instance would be to ignore the large body of evidence to the contrary on a societal level. Thus, this is likely to be quite informative.

So far the discussions that I am seeing indicate that a significant number of people active in the group called The ZeitGeist Movement seem to be dancing around the ponerology issue but there isn't anything substantive.

I think that's fairly substantive in and of itself. After all, the truth is the truth - any dancing around the truth is an issue.

What I was looking for (and perhaps have found) is whether this growing organization has had previous contact with SOTT. It would appear that it has not and so I would like to pursue this line of communication to see where it leads.

Well, I think it will be quite instructive. I would also suggest that you keep in mind all that has been discussed here regarding the process of ponerization, disinformation, useful idiots, vectoring, and general societal control - merely to observe the response you get. I think, ultimately, it will be an interesting experiment - if for no other reason than you will discover how interested these people really are in the big picture. You also might get a glimpse into how widespread the control really is.

 

[spyraal]

Personally, I admit i found Venus Project very reasonable as a potentially sustainable model for humanity. Especially i liked the part where it mentions that under the current status quo, some practical human problems are being addressed politically only because they are not allowed to be addressed technologically. "Politics can only produce laws, science can produce actual solutions" as the Venus project people say more or less. Not a bad point IMO.

But unfortunately, without taking into account the missing link of Ponerology, any such system is due to fail in time with mathematical precision. Science today is not independent from politics and corporations, and thus by extension it seems to be ponerized itself to a great extend. Maybe people need first to understand why reality is as it is now, before wishing and considering to make any such drastic changes. If ever the bitter truth of psychopathy and it's effect on societies is discovered and understood by a greater part of humanity, then i guess it might be time to consider such projects as Venus for "the Day After" scenarios... Until then, i think that such ambitious projects can still serve us, but only as a distant beacon which reminds us that the way things are today might not necessarily be the only one...

:)

 

[Tigersoap]

I had looked at it a while ago but never got really into their proposed solution that science will save us all.

Where does come into their proposals, working on the self ?
Is there any possibility of change if scientific progress isn't paralleled with self-development as well ?
I don't think so.

Although it looks nice and clean (sanitized maybe ?) this can easily turn into an Orwellian nightmare because everyone would be totally dependant of such system to live.
Exactly like how today's world turning into, it just looks nicer and sci-fi enough to attract a lot of people.

To me it's the perfect 4DSTS "dream" if people are thinking that by being surrounded by clean buildings, clean machines will help to outgrow their cavemens habit and as said previously, that psychopaths are amongst us, I'll see that one falling from afar.

My two cents.

 

[Erna]

[quote author=PepperFritz]
Sorry, I have no idea what you mean -- in what way are the videos "shocking"?
[/quote]

Well, 2 people whom I’ve given Zeitgeist copies to, one of them when I asked him loooong before I gave him Zeitgeist, I asked him if he believes what the Bible says, and his answer was something to the effect of “I believe it 13 000%”. For him Zeitgeist only served as a catalyst and got him reading on the topic. His exact words to me was that it was a shock to him.

The other person whom I gave it to, her husband is a bit of a sceptic and never much liked her interest into esoteric matters. They are quite unhappily married because of this total clash of interest. When she gave him Zeitgeist to watch she went to bed halfway through, and the next morning when she asked him what he thought of it, he turned round and said “911 was an inside job”. So it probably shocked him.

[quote author=PepperFritz]
And how do you know that the "shock" they provide are acting as catalysts for personal change in the way that Gurdjieff meant? How do you know that the "shock" is not causing viewers to be drawn to The Venus Project out of fear, or a misguided belief that this organization has the power to "save" them?
[/quote]

Well, no-one can say for sure, but it’s unlikely that ‘someone' who bashes the two main control systems of our time, namely religion and the monetary system, has more control as their aim. Unless they see the possible collapse of these control mechanisms as inevitable in future, and need to prepare the replacement control mechanisms. And of course more likely they are just uneducated with regards to ponerology. This whole Venus project reminds me a little of Dr. Michio Kaku who says we are on the cusp of moving from a type 0 civilization (who harness energy from dead plants – coal and oil) to a type 1 civilization. I think every initiative for change are worth looking into objectively. No effort is perfect in it's approach, but to me personally, Zeitgeist have done a tremendous amount to remove people's blinkers. Excellent execution in my view. But of course there's the argument of our consciousness not being on par with our technology (which is very problematic for progress), so who knows. But let me study that website a bit more...

 

[Renaissance]

Seems to me that The Venus Project, or more precisely Zeitgeist, could fall into a category of 'social psychotherapy' mind control: a category similar to the shock doctrine. The difference seems in the method used and the effect it has on the individual. The shock doctrine changes social programs though manufactured external shocks (shocks which do not involve seeing the self), and during such new programs are implemented. The category Zeitgeist falls into also uses external shocks by exposing the falseness of religion and the monetary control systems. The 'more truth' method does seem to bring more consciousness into the picture, but as has already been mentioned there's no consideration of the self. And what of will? Perhaps some people who find Zeitgiest were already asking and searching, but I suspect even from the many who still accept the shock that they were not asking.

Gurdjieff called these people 'conscious sheep'. Conscious sheep still get eaten.

"If man overcomes unconsciousness, he will possess consciousness; if he overcomes mechanicalness he will produce will. If he understands the nature of powers he can attain, it will be clear to him that they cannot be given; these powers must be developed by effort. If we were made more conscious, we would remain conscious machines. Mr. Gurdjeiff told me that in some schools they could, by some special methods, make a sheep conscious. But it just remained a conscious sheep. I asked him what they did with it, and he said they ate it.

The idea of a conscious sheep is this: suppose a man is made conscious by someone else; he will be an instrument in the hands of others. One's own efforts are necessary, because otherwise, even if a man is made conscious, he will not be able to use it. It is in the very nature of things that consciousness and will cannot be given. If someone could give them to you, it would not be an advantage. This is the reason why one must buy everything, nothing is given free. The most difficult thing is to learn how to pay. But if it could be explained in a few words, there would be no need to go to school. One has to pay not only for consciousness but for everything. Not the smallest idea can become one's own until one has paid for it.

 

[spyraal]

To me it's the perfect 4DSTS "dream" if people are thinking that by being surrounded by clean buildings, clean machines will help to outgrow their cavemens habit and as said previously, that psychopaths are amongst us, I'll see that one falling from afar.

Indeed. I just recently read Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" where the main concept (for those who are unfamiliar with it) is about a scientific kind of global dictatorship where people even came to be contented with their servitude, since they were provided by "science" with enough things to shop, drugs, and order... (what a great book!). So, i share your concerns about this potentially "dark" side of Venus-like projects. Finally, maybe it will always depend on the sum of consciousness and knowledge the people of each time possess before the one or the other thing happens...

On the occasion, here is a quite fitting link to an old yet still very interesting interview of Aldous Huxley about his book and totalitarianism in general: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGaYXahbcL4

:)

 

[JonnyRadar]

[quote author=E][...] but it’s unlikely that ‘someone' who bashes the two main control systems of our time, namely religion and the monetary system, has more control as their aim. [...][/quote]

it may not necessarily be their aim, but that doesn't preclude them from being (perhaps unwittingly or not) tools of the control systems they "bash." this is one of the most effective ways to keep people distracted and looping. lies and distractions are easily missed when laced among fragments of truth. the problem with them being "missed" is that they are still assimilated by the person who is bent towards truth-seeking, and then acted upon whether realized or not. this can happen if one is not vigilant about critical thinking.

i.e. the venus project wants to save the world and awaken the sisterly/brotherly aspects of humankind. this is a perceivably noble effort. however two major things are wrong with this picture: they quite readily admit to "knowing" what is right and good and just for all, and stand at the ready to violate free will en masse; and they completely ignore the fact that psychopaths will not stand idly by as the world joins hands in song.

be very cautious of those that proclaim themselves to be freedom fighters in possession of the solution to all our ills. by and large this crowd is drowned in wishful thinking and has put on blinders of their own, while believing themselves to be removing the blinders of others.