The whole control of the world by system.

[sedenion]

Hi Woodsman, before i reply just one remark : What a bunch of energy spent to analysing my little person !

2. You are submitting to a deep program common in most, if not all, people. Economy of Energy.

Yes ! and i know it... this is one of my biggest problem with this univers: entropy, the need to spend energy to do anything, this unceasing trade of energy, i hate this...

i.e., Work hurts

No, work is boring, or stimulating (depending)... life hurts.

and it’s easier to just keep being an object in motion.

That depend the initial state of the object. You will need some huge energy to propuls an canon ball...

-Reading a bunch of books (or learning a language like English which you have done, thus enabling communication here) represents a huge energy expenditure;

Depends how and why you do...

Your machine automatically groans and rejects the idea

Specialy if i don't asked anything...

does not want to undertake the measures necessary to be considerate to the rest of the kids in the class, demanding the teacher's energy be spent inefficiently -on you- so that you don't have to do the assigned homework.

Ho my... what are you trying to do again...

3. A deep dislike of dominating systems.

deep understanding too. ("know your enemy" Sun Tzu)

You don’t want to be brainwashed; to submit to authority. What respectable person would not feel this way? No friend of mine! -It is an affront! Especially when Ego is involved! What about YOU? What about YOUR special status? “I am a passing comet.” Ha ha. Maybe, but.., good grief, dude! I feel embarrassed on your behalf to hear you make such a statement. -What we would call around here another program; one which allows you to go on your merry way without having had to expend a whole lot of energy..,

Really, do you know how it is annoying to deal with google translate, switching from a tab to another, verifying what i said is "english understandable" ? Do you want i write in french ? :D I also can found another way to spent my time... Anyway don't worry, if i really find too boring to come here, i will simply go elswhere, doing other things... I come here and reply because i found this stimulating in some way: I am not american :D

but just look at the profitable result: “My own feelings of superiority and specialness reinforced.

Don't worry, i don't need to comes here for that, this is perfectly natural :p

A comet! Bright, independent star in the heavens

Huahaha ! ho yeah ! However, i think you know a comet is in fact dark as hell until it come near to the sun, where it begin to melt, letting this great and bright tail lighted by the sun light... Comets are much more about light reflexion (and refraction) than light emission.

exerting mysterious force upon those hapless in my path. Ahhh. sighhhh.”

In fact, what i was thinking about with comets, is that they pass (or crash, sometime, more rarely), they do not stay... i am not here to stay, even if your mass attract me by gravity.

But to get to the next level,

And again... the famous "next level"...

(and yes, there are levels of awareness, always have been, always will be, despite how offensive it may seem), people must learn that some or many of the programs they are playing host to are NOT theirs, are in fact foreign installations designed to keep them locked in nice, energy-efficient slots, remaining gears in a vast, sleeping machine.

I know these theories (i know almost all theories)... interesting, but i do not use as "work basis"... i can give some rational (and well argumented) answer to "where programs come from"... in fact, i think when you REALLY understand where they come from, you are more able to understand them... the "they come from external entities" is, from my point of view, not a "good" answer, even if there is maybe some truth lying here, from another perspective. you better have to simply observe animals, plants and physical laws. For example: Ego is originally here because you need it to survive in an hostile environment (self-protection purposes). This planet is a (very) hostile environment.

You have been deftly turned into your own jailer by the real Authorities. Just look at the convenient results of your current convictions: you are automatically put at war with some of the very people who might help you.

Oh, please... and because you are very fine psycholog, you probably beleive that the man you think i am, will read this, and suddently understands you and tell to itsef "but, this is true ! come on, lets go read Gurdjeif to save my life !" ? Do you know the difference between extracting somebody from its"hypothetical problem" and what you do now ? Please reconsider your tactic...

You have even been programmed to believe that you should NOT be helped.

Experience, my friend (painful experience). Do you think you are currently trying to help me ? I can answere you: NO... you are doing something else.

To announce to people. "Do not try to help me! It would be a big mistake!"

that's it... you better should speak with me, normaly, without any intent to help me. Do i have asked for help ? no... do you want ME to ASK for help ? YES... now think about what YOU WANT and what I NEED, and go read cassiopaean again. (sorry i am a little brutal, but sometimes...)

How very convenient for your jailers that an intelligent, powerful mind should adopt such an attitude!

flattery does not work with me, try another thing.

You won’t lose yourself. Quite the contrary.

Then finaly, after a loooonnng analysis of what i am... Always intersting seeing (again) somebody else telling my who i am... to finally discover (as usual) that he even don't know one simple thing about me.

I don't fear "losing myself" by reading the "materials suggested", understanding "the definitions".and "Spend the energy" i just DON'T WANT, because that don't interst me. However, people like you are pretty scary, yes, please stay away from me... thanks.

 

[Neil]

Do you even realize how your question is complex and have MANY questions hidden behind others ?

Yes, it could easily become the subject of a book, which is precisely why I asked it; I wanted some insights into your philosophical position. This also harkens back to the original "conflict" that arose in this thread; that of reading the material. You could in fact write me a book, or you could summarize your position on it, reference various works which support your position, where you agree and disagree with them, and how your personal experience of the subject matter from these different sources makes the knowledge you possess worth more than the sum of its parts. Then it is up to me if I am genuinely interested to invest my own energy in understanding your perspective. Are there people on this forum who quote Gurdjieff to give them an air of authority without having to think for themselves? Most likely, but usually it is a way to encourage someone to get actively up to speed on the complex ideas that we discuss here without having to constantly "reinvent the wheel" with a post that is a mile long covering ground that has already been covered. You gave me a general synopsis of your ideas, which is fine, I wasn't expecting an exhaustive exposition of every concept. In my experience, there aren't very many truly original ideas. The universe is connected through archetypes, which the Sufis called divine names, which are different facets of the Universal Consciousness, which reverberate throughout the totality of existence expressing themselves in the multitude of forms we can observe at our level with our small consciousness. Different people are animated by different archetypes and can express them to various degrees of complexity and purity. A significant part of "evolution" at this level is to increase the depth and breadth of our understanding of these archetypes and identify which ones we wish to align with. Development at this level appears to move towards two poles, which could be loosely defined as self centric and self-sharing negative/positive.

Lets try that: What if you simply creates a society where "predatory business man" just can't exist, because the socity is based on some rules and values that simply prevent this kind of thing to happen ? Currently, the society is MADE by these predators, they created the rules, so they are sure to win...

I have thought about this, and while you can create a society that incentivizes kinship and virtue instead of profit, the problem is, if one does a critical analysis of the UFO phenomenon and its influence on humanity, one comes to the conclusion that humanity has basically been bred to be a servile resource for the aliens. The aliens have control over genetics and mental energies surrounding the planet so that they can "infuse" people who are weak willed or have genetic aberrations to become agents in their diabolical plan. Unless a certain group of people can rise to the aliens' level of consciousness and resist their efforts to maintain humanity as a sort of cattle race, we are stuck with what we have, a weak fickle race that is a "plaything of the gods" constantly vulnerable to the incursions of evil. The utopian version can't work with what we've got, we need a pragmatic version that can mitigate the damage in the realm that we are confined to. It is the difference between Plato's Republic and Laws although there is more to the story than that, certainly. These ideas are explored extensively in this thread, which kind of gives you an insight into the forum's overall philosophy on society. It's a bit of a slog, but you may find it intriguing. http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,41130.0.html

Again, this is a very dificult question, and it even depend on what you name "controversy". Personnaly, i think controversy, as a way for debate, is a key feature to make things go further... however, controversy can also be a pure waste of time, if you make some controversy about the colours of your shoes while your home is burning (we have some abilities for that in France, especially in mainstream medias), this is not the best idea you could have.

Well, this is an interesting reply because I was under the impression from some of your previous posts that you want to debate just for the sake of debate. Often people with this attitude just want to play "point, counterpoint" tossing various intellectual "darts" at people simply to evoke a response, any kind of response. They copy and paste various eloquently articulated, but fundamentally vacuous arguments, prying at grey areas using rhetorical ploys to confuse any argument in a sea of moral relativism. It is a mask to hide a deep dark hole while trying to appear as some "learned elder". So I would agree that controversy is entirely frivolous without some fundamental underlying substance, in which case it can be consciousness expanding if approached in an adult manner. The intent must be to inform, not to discredit or "score points."

i have even a conflict with my own existence in the univers, i see myself as kind of "informatic bug", so, my role in the society. I think i should even not exists... this was a bad idea...

Why? And do you really believe that? Is it because you are surrounded by various authorities, scientifics, philosophers, etc who tell you they have the key to life, but upon further investigation, they have no clue what they are talking about? That you can't get away from the charlatans wherever you go and there's just no point?

I have several theories... some are contradictory to others. And again your question is contextual... "manifest universe", you mean, physical one, the one we see, ear, etc ? then you talk about creation, while "creating" is probably the less understandable key concept of the... creation...

I mean what you interact with at all levels of your present awareness, physical, emotional, mental, psychic...

Yes... but probably not "objective" as one would think. "Perception of reality" is, by definition "subjective"... try some intellectual playing: we suppose that at some level, we are "god", so, we become "the creator", so, what "objective perception of reality" means if you litterally creates your reality ? your are not even in some "perception"... to perceive, you have to be "subjective", you have to separate yourself from your creation...

I think this comes back to what you were saying earlier about there being different levels of truth that are nested within each other; scaling up to perhaps some absolute truth that encompasses everything...An idea that we play with here is that the creator is the created and it cycles back in forth in the plane of infinity. This is also a fairly widespread notion among various esoteric traditions articulated to varying degrees of clarity. At the highest level in the highest reality, the Universal Consciousness exists in a purely spiritual realm containing an infinite amount of energy, intelligence, etc expanding infinitely until it comes back to itself. The only thing the Universal Consciousness wants is experience, it is all about the experiences. Different experiences became possible when it "fragmented" instead of existing as a static, unchanging perfected thought form. You, me, and everything else connected to the creative flow of the universe is the act of the Universal Consciousness experiencing itself and the permutations of the experiences expanding infinitely until it comes back to itself and completes the cycle. If one could arrive at the level of awareness the Universal Consciousness had "before" the fragmentation, one would contain all that exists. Of course this fragmentation happens in a realm beyond the boundaries of space and time, the unification, fragmentation, and reunification is all happening simultaneously in the eternal now of the present, we are only separated from it by our awareness. I wrote three posts in this thread explaining my comprehension of this apparent "paradox" in some more detail. http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,41435.msg645914.html#msg645914

What ? let me re-read the question... no, sorry, i don't understand the question...The key energy of the supreme consciousness from the 16th dimension... no, ok... i am sorry but, you are way too serious, can we set the discussion to a more lightwheight level ?

It's ok, you pretty much answered my questions. I was trying to examine your existential perspective with broad, open-ended questions to see where you would go with them. I understand this is a highly theoretical and abstract area of research where there are no hard an fast answers.

Which brings me to my concluding statements. You seem to have a nihilistic bent in you (thinking you shouldn't exist) while we all want to exist to the fullest of our potential. While at the ultimate level these two extremes are unified (there is existence and the concept of nonexistence, which sprung forth from the same Universal Consciousness) the positive archetype seeks to maintain and enhance its positivity while the negative archetype seeks to maintain and enhance its negativity as each moves closer to its respective source. Mixing the two leads to some interesting effects, but ultimately results in a loss of polarity. Ra summarized in a slightly different context.

Ra: I am Ra. At the level of time/space at which this takes place in the form of what you may call thought-war, the most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded, engulfed, and transformed by positive energies.

This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

It is thus that those who deal with this thought-war must be defensive rather than accepting in order to preserve their usefulness in service to others. Thusly, they cannot accept fully what the Orion Confederation wishes to give, that being enslavement. Thusly, some polarity is lost due to this friction and both sides, if you will, must then regroup.

It has not been fruitful for either side. The only consequence which has been helpful is a balancing of the energies available to this planet so that these energies have less necessity to be balanced in this space/time, thus lessening the chances of planetary annihilation.

Nihilism and a sort of creative existentialism cannot coexist on our level, they are mutually exclusive. Attempting to convert anyone from either archetypal camp, unless it is specifically asked for, simply results in a loss of polarity and nothing more. However, your inquisitive nature suggests you aren't quite "sold" on the nihilistic philosophy. You may disagree with our methods, you may regard us an obscure group of crazy people who occasionally say interesting things and observe from a distance, you may see us as one source among many, but at a certain level all of that is irrelevant. This plane of reality is all about making the choice, and the crux of the matter is simply this:

What do you choose?

 

[BHelmet]

A fascinating discussion. In the start, Sendenion defined himself as a Troll, but over the course of the words in the boxes, it seems to me that his definition of Troll is not the standard definition of someone causing disruption just for the hell of it or as a total destructive distraction. Perhaps some defensiveness and assumptions/accusations in various quarters were made based on the initial "splash". Some of those assumptions may yet prove to be true, but acting upon the supposed certainty of those assumptions, without testing, can be a pitfall.

Furthermore, the cultural and idiomatic differences in language have become apparent as a stumbling block to communication and mutual understanding. It is quite illuminating since it throws light on the unseen biases built into both language and culture.

Nihilism and a sort of creative existentialism cannot coexist on our level, they are mutually exclusive. ...You may disagree with our methods, you may regard us an obscure group of crazy people who occasionally say interesting things and observe from a distance, you may see us as one source among many, but at a certain level all of that is irrelevant. This plane of reality is all about making the choice...

Why are nihilism and existentialism mutually exclusive? (especially in a dualistic world) From a purely physical point of view I could argue nihilism in that our physical vehicles are doomed to die so what's the point? But from a spiritual point of view I can argue existentialism and the need to give meaning and purpose to life and action through choice, as was implied. Mixtus Orbis and all that.

Perhaps focusing on the "Us" vs. "You" paradigm generates a kind of skewed relationship a la Dubya's "You're with us or against us". (along with perhaps amplifying narcissistic content by putting the spotlight on "you/Sendenion" instead of ideas/observations) . And then there is speaking for 'us' as though there actually is an 'us'. I see 'us' as a collection of free agents and individuals with different aims, different experience, different knowledge etc. albeit with certain shared intention/purposes: e.g. learning; sharing; evolving.

Sort of a joke: When I would say 'we' or 'us' when trying to speak for everyone and try to make some proclamation of universal truth, a great friend of mine used to say "Who? You and the mouse in your pocket?"

A boat load of mental concepts may not be the best route to awareness and real being. Just as the observer/scientist has an influence on the experiment and thus alters the results of what is seen and measured when seeking objectivity, those mental concepts can act as a shield crowding out the truth. (like confirmation bias)

Qui sait ?

 

[Al Today]

[...]
A person may be able to grasp such things in theory, be able to perceive them intellectually, but how do you apply such theories into action, into that which can have an affect on our Being, on what we are?
[...]

I think so very important that this be reiterated to all. One may understand that there is level of commitment needed to perform the Work, to Do the walk, not only talk the talk. To know inside what may be the best possibility of truth. Where one changes and be fluid. A "feeling" from the inner being as to which path is to be followed. Seems I am reinforcing this concept to myself here. Speaking here as one old boy who has preached on the pulpit before, perhaps that could be likened to a "religious" experience, but Work for a conversion of Being. Boy-o-boy, and do I have a lot of things to overcome. Never say never, expect nothing, keep eyes wide open, and keep on keeping on.

Reminds me of an old story where a church member asked the preacher, "Why do we keep hearing the same messages over and over?". And the preacher said, "I keep teaching the lessons over and over because we keep forgetting them".


edit for clarity.