Thoughts about Karma.

[BrendaH]

Hello!!

The other day I was reading some threads in the PSI section (If I remember correctly) and I read a reply to a post that apparently it remained stuck in my head because yesterday before I fell asleep I remembered the reply and some questions arose.

I tried to find the thread in the SPI section, I checked the search history and I looked in other sections that I had read that day just in case, but I couldn't find it. So I decided to create a similar situation, based on the reply that I couldn't find
and also to not change the facts of what really happened in case I say something wrong. So this is going to be like a hypothetical situation. Remember I will change some facts because I don't remember the exact details, anyway I'll try to make the changes as insignificant as possible. (I would have liked to ask the user who shared her story if she doesn't mind that I use her story as a reference and if she gives me permission to use it but I had no way to send her my question)

If a person (let's call it "A_") knows that a loved one ("B_") is going to die soon and A_ knows that the B_'s death is related to karma issues so A_ makes the decision to sacrifice an extremity of his body, with all that entails, in exchange that B_ can live. Then A_ suffer an accident and loses one extremity of his body, while the accident was taking place A_ receives instructions from a voice that tells him how to do to lose his extremity. A_ does his part and B_ lives.

After that a lot of questions come to my mind like:
with whom A_ made the agreement? Where did the voice come from? Let's suppose the agreement was done with the Universe/Divine Cosmic Mind, can the Universe allow such intervention in the karma of another person? Wouldn't this lead to consequences in B_'s life, like a intervention in B_'s lessons or even B_'s free will?

I made some speculations:

One possibility could be that it was already "predestined" that A_ save B_ for karmic reasons as well.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong:

1) IMO if the universe allows another person to pay for the karma of another person by own choice it's because there was a prior agreement or karmic issues, in this case for example between A_ and B_. If this is not the case, as far as I understand, there would be a violation of B_'s free will and lessons.

2) But in case that what it's written above is wrong and A_ could really have saved B_'s life because he wanted to, there must be a pure act of love on A_'s part, I mean he really wanted B_ to live. I speculate that A_ wasn't thinking about himself but about B_, maybe A_ wasn't thinking about all the pain he would have to face if B_ had died and he was thinking about B_'s life.

Anyway I prefer the 1st one, it sounds more logical to me since it doesn't violate free will and lessons.

Any thoughts?

Ps: Moderators I put this in the "what's on your mind" section because I don't know where else it can fit, but if any of you think this would fit better in another section feel free to move it.

 

[Nico]

There's no better answer for yourself that the one you've made up.

For me karma is in the feelings. The feelings that one have about life. And to take your exemple, I see a third place between A and B which is the "space between" or the beingness, I really doubt that there is any actual exchange of karmic energy is possible, it's just the interpretation of A or B about the event that will alleviate or wheigh the karma.

The goal is to alleviate feelings/karma FOR the beingness/universe, in order for IT to see itself more clearly through your body/mind.

In fact I don't really know, and I am not sure if the discussion is very useful for anyone to see more clearly. Because hypothesis is just hypothesis, and it has nothing to do with "real" life. This may obscure your perceptions more. I suggest that you alleviate your karma about this topic ^^.

 

[BrendaH]

Hi Nico and thanks for your answer!! Yes, this topic it's pretty much usless, it was literally "what was on my mind", I hesitated a lot before I posted it, when I created I did it with the intention to have some answers about what could possibly happen in the story written above, since it made me wonder many things. And the Hypotesis that I wrote are nothing more than that, a hypotesis. I made it with my little understanding about karma, so maybe they could seem vague. By the way, what do you mean with "alleviate your Karma about this topic"?

 

[obyvatel]

The idea of sacrificing oneself for another is ancient. There is historical evidence of such acts, some more famous than others. One such famous act was from Babar, the first Mughal emperor of India. Babar waged many wars through his life and established the foundations of an empire. When his son Humayun fell ill, all the medical treatment available for royalty in those days (16th century) could not cure him. A distraught Babar was urged to sacrifice something of great value to prevent the death of his son. Usually this meant giving up material wealth and I would speculate people suggesting such remedies stood to benefit the most from such sacrifices - like the priestly class. But Babar decided that he would offer his own life to the divine in exchange for his son's life. Babar died a few months later while Humayun was cured.

Humayun almost lost the empire that his father handed down to him. He was addicted to opium and was not a gifted general like his father. The tottering empire was eventually stabilized and expanded by Humayun's son, Akbar, who is hailed to this day as the greatest Mughal emperor. Akbar was not only a skilled general, but an able administrator who built bridges with the majority Hindu population that he ruled over. Akbar was not born when Babar apparently sacrificed his life for Humayun. The Mughal empire was to last about three centuries before being overthrown by the British colonists.

One could speculate that given the known historical facts, Humayun's illness could have been a way for him to get out of a life with constant warfare and administrative challenges that he did not really want to deal with. Babar's sacrifice played a role in him having to stay back and deal with the responsibility of being an emperor of a new and unstable empire.

From Babar's perspective, along with his love for his son, if Humayun, his chosen heir, passed away before him, the fledgling empire would most likely have collapsed. One could say his sacrifice was accepted by the universe and paved the way for his legacy to survive for about 3 centuries.

We can have our judgement about such acts based on concepts like free will and karma, but at the end of the day we cannot know the consequence and ramifications of a certain action in the future. What can on the surface look like an act of great nobility and virtue in the present time can turn out to have evil and disastrous consequences in the future. Similarly despicable acts in the present can pave the way for future harmony and benefit for others.

For me, the value of such study and discussion lies in bringing about a ever deeper realization of how little we do know or even can know about the larger reality and thus help choose an attitude appropriate to such a state of affairs. It also brings home the reality of hazard or significant uncertainty from a more philosophical perspective.

 

[BrendaH]

Thanks obyvatel, what you wrote reminded me of this session:

Q: Now he says further: 'Yes, everything is lessons and if a person has chosen a specific path they should be allowed to go and learn their way. But, let's say this is happening to someone you really love. And let's say that the person may be in a period of his life that his/her thoughts are probably taking her/him to commit, let's say, a murder. Don't you think that if you send this person love, even unconsciously, that it may provide the necessary energy (influence) to stop that murder?' Comment please.

A: No, no, no!!! In fact, if anything, such an energy transference even could enhance the effect.

Q: In what way?

A: Imbalanced waves could be drawn upon by the receiver.

Q: I think that this word he used is a clue: 'Don't you think that if you send the person love, it could provide the person the necessary energy' and in parentheses he has the word 'influence' which implies control of the other person's behavior, to 'stop that murder.' So, it seems that there is a desire to control the actions of another person.

A: Yes.

Q: But, his intent is entirely benevolent because he wants to stop a murder which is the saving of a life, as well as prevent the loved one from going to prison. So, it SEEMS to be benevolent in intent. Does this not make a difference?

A: Have we forgotten about Karma?

Q: Well, both S and I mentioned the fact that one cannot always judge these situations because we don't know. We cannot know. For all we know the potential murder victim is an Adolf Hitler type or the potential parent of one, or something like that, and then the murder would save many lives with the sacrifice of two lives, or that this murder is supposed to happen because of some karmic interaction that is essential between the murderer and victim, and that we simply cannot KNOW these things and judge them.

A: Yes

 

[Nico]

Hi Nico and thanks for your answer!! Yes, this topic it's pretty much usless, it was literally "what was on my mind", I hesitated a lot before I posted it, when I created I did it with the intention to have some answers about what could possibly happen in the story written above, since it made me wonder many things. And the Hypotesis that I wrote are nothing more than that, a hypotesis. I made it with my little understanding about karma, so maybe they could seem vague. By the way, what do you mean with "alleviate your Karma about this topic"?

I say stay in silence and watch the question about Karma float in awareness, without trying to put words or make stories, and allow all discomfort to rise and vanish. Maybe you'll see the answer, when you've finished, simply let go.

In fact you've received a part of the answer with obyvatel :).

For me, the value of such study and discussion lies in bringing about a ever deeper realization of how little we do know or even can know about the larger reality and thus help choose an attitude appropriate to such a state of affairs. It also brings home the reality of hazard or significant uncertainty from a more philosophical perspective.

So my guess is that "no intent" will clear the pathway for you and others when it comes to relationship.

 

[BrendaH]

I say stay in silence and watch the question about Karma float in awareness, without trying to put words or make stories, and allow all discomfort to rise and vanish. Maybe you'll see the answer, when you've finished, simply let go.

Nico, thanks for the explanation!! :)