Time

David George

The Force is Strong With This One
It appears to me that there are two kinds of "time" that we perceive; and we place one kind of time over the other, like overlaying a set of spatial locations onto a spatial map.

The first, more general kind of time is the temporal equivalent of the spatial map: it is the linear "river" of time - or the temporal component of the space-time continuum. But this space-time continuum map does not fit well into the spatial map of, for example, a graph, which has an origin in the center and three axes (both negative and positive) radiating from the origin. The time component of the linear space-time continuum has only a positive axis, radiating from somewhere close to its origin (T=0) but not touching its origin. (Whether this linear spacetime continuum is simply our measurement of a continuum of causal events, or an independently existing physically real continuum, we will put aside for the time being.)

The second, more immediate kind of time is found in the causal sequence of events. It cannot be said to be a "river" in the same way as the linear space-time continuum. Events in the causal sequence necessarily "follow", but there is no intrinsic linear "forward" component to them. They relate to each other by order of occurrence: cause precedes effect, and that is all we can say. But we then overlay these causal sequences onto the more general linear space-time continuum "map", and we place the causal events nearer the origin and the effects farther away from it. So it appears that there is a natural relation between the linear space-time continuum and the causal sequential time. But we might just as easily say that a causal event lies in the future relative to an effect. For example, a light source emits light, which is then detected. The light source lies in the future relative to the light it emits; the light lies in the future relative to its detection; and carrying on, the detection lies in the future relative to our "sense" (our brain processing apparatus, making sense of our detection). In this scenario, "time" flows from future to past. But we then have a mapping problem. If we say that this sequential time is how it is, we would have to place the prime mover, the unmoved mover, the prime cause, at T=0, in the future relative to all its effects.

But how real is the general linear space-time continuum we have constructed to measure events? Is it not simply a measurement device? We must ask ourselves whether the linear space-time continuum exists independently of the events that supposedly taken place "in" it. It is impossible to deal with physical reality unless we treat the space-time continuum as if it exists in physical reality - but we then come up against Einstein's general theory, in which the space-time continuum is only "a structural quality of the field": it has no independent existence. If the field (here the gravitational field) is removed, no space-time continuum remains. And, in the presence of bodies of matter, the field they create determines the form of the space-time continuum - which in turn determines how the bodies of matter move. ("Matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.")

So according to general relativity, not only is the resulting space-time continuum warped, but it is entirely dependent on the presence of matter (or more generally energy). Nevertheless, we can still say arbitrarily that it moves, linearly, away from past and toward the future. But now if the field, the energy of the universe, is removed, then the space-time continuum is necessarily removed, and we then have only the event sequence scenario in which the cause precedes the effect. At this point we seem to be free to choose: does the cause lie in the future relative to the effect, or does it lie in the past? For example, imagine ourselves to be in the "middle" of nowhere, no time, waiting for something to happen. Relative to this imaginary spaceless, timeless, existence does the prime mover, the universal cause, lie in the future or in the past? Since we cannot easily (if at all) imagine such a nonexistent scenario, we are more or less compelled to start up a clock. So, say that after a few ticks (or a practically infinite number of ticks) of the nonexistent clock, space begins to expand. Does the signal for spatial expansion arrive from the future, or from the past?

Now we appear to have two choices: the signal arrives from the future, or it arrives from the past. It is integral to the current dominant scenario of universal evolution, the Big Bang scenario, that the signal for spatial expansion arrives from the past: the prime mover lies at T=0; an indeterminate length of time "later", the universe exists in a hot dense state and begins its inexorable journey to oblivion due to entropy: from perfect symmetry, the universe cools, and fields and particles "freeze out" by spontaneous symmetry breaking; and unfortunate beings such as ourselves eventually emerge, powered by temporary "entropy pumps" (stars), to ponder the eventual universal doom. Ignoring general relativity, "space" expands due to the radiation pressure of the virtually infinitely hot dense initial condition. But in this case, "space" is not a structural quality of the field; it is a component of an independently existing linear space-time continuum. This is because the early universe is described not by general relativity but by quantum field theory. It is assumed that, all the energy of the universe appearing spontaneously and at one time at T=0, general relativity breaks down (it predicts infinite gravitational spacetime curvature) and is no use here.

However, there is that other choice: that the signal for spatial expansion arrives from the future. And as the linear space-time continuum proceeds from the past to the future, the signal remains in the future, and continues to power the universe. To my knowledge there is no scenario such as this recognized by physics at the present time. It is a scenario for a universe continually under power. And in this scenario, there is no "spacetime-energy complex", only a universal field (with its initial condition being expanding space). And Einstein's description of the spacetime continuum as a structural quality of the field takes on a new meaning. The field is indistinguishable from spacetime. From the spacetime-energy complex we derive a fundamental understanding that spacetime = energy. (How this field creates pressure must be explained, later.)

How does this second scenario affect our previous understanding of "time"? For one thing, it provides us with an opportunity to examine the idea of the linear space-time continuum more closely. For example, does it exist in physical reality? And we find, not necessarily. We could do away with it and replace it with "memory". So the past becomes "memory" - and what of the future? In this powered universe, the future (beside powering "the present") is the source of memory, because in this powered universe, the creation moment, T=0, lies in the future.

This is as far as I can go at the moment.
 
Let's say you travel to the past then from a spacetime coordinates point of view you went backwards in time but from the point of view of your worldline you still went into the future. In some sense all the possibilities for the past and future could already exist complete with entities at all locations on all worldlines. You and me just happen to be travelling via specific spacetime locations associated with specific worldlines.

Perhaps before a decoherence/quantum jump you may be travelling via multiple worldlines in multiple worlds of a Many-Worlds theory. Perhaps these multiple worlds are connected via some non-linear bosons. Right after a decoherence/quantum jump you would get back to a single worldline in a single world of the Many Worlds theory. Perhaps probabilities for choosing a single worldline are associated with interference in the worldlines' future. Thus there would be a future effects past causality.
 
Bluelamp,

Perhaps, in a sense that is beyond me! As far as I understand anything about decoherence/quantum jumps, what appears to be an instantaneous quantum jump may be simply a very rapid decoherence/recoherence between energy levels in an atom. I imagine that in a "Many-Worlds theory" practically anything is possible, but I imagine myself to be stuck in one world, namely that of my sense experience. In that world, cause precedes effect, and that is a basis for a physically real sequential time. It appears to me that which way "time" flows in the physical reality we experience with our senses is up to us. I am suggesting there is an alternative to the Big Bang time arrow scenario: the alternative being that "past" is memory; and the universal creation moment lies not in a physically real past 13.7 billion years ago, but in the future (which cannot be located in the physical reality we sense since it is always a moment ahead of us, but which powers the universe forever).
 
I hadn't read this thread before today. When Woodsman posted the 'time' thread as questions for the c's, I thought I'd leave it alone and post my thoughts here.

First, if David George is still interested, I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion, because I find myself essentially in agreement with his perception of the 'two' kinds of time. Only, I'm thinking the cyclic time is the first condition and the linear time is added to the individual.

In that other thread this is kinda what I wanted to respond to as a beginning because ever since Woodsman's particular way of framing the issue, I haven't been able to get the subject off my mind for long, until I gave it some serious thought.

Woodsman said:
I was wondering if the C's might give some specifics on the mechanics behind how our brains perceive time. They said that our perception of time comes as a result of our DNA, which doesn't necessarily suggest a biological clock, but it might.


Taking the C's remarks about 'time' in consideration, my impression is that the reference to DNA was a reference to "the whole person".

What if, instead of "time as biological component", the C's "time as illusion" idea just refers to "a particular way of structuring" part of our being - from our perceptions, involving our cognitive layer, to the clock-work like mechanicalness of our physical movements? Somewhat similar to what DG was saying, I think.

The picture that emerges for me could be described as a 'linear sequencing algorithm' on a deeper level of our being and that has equivalent expressions in different contexts of our lives. Much like the idea of how the equations of fluid dynamics could be said to exist on a deeper, more subtle level of the universe around us, yet manifesting on the physical level (in water as well as the atmosphere) as the various flows that we've become accustomed to seeing.

In this picture, DNA could probably be pre-programmed by some external influence, or we can see it as an overlooked aspect of our regular programming.
 
Bud said:
First, if David George is still interested, I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion, because I find myself essentially in agreement with his perception of the 'two' kinds of time. Only, I'm thinking the cyclic time is the first condition and the linear time is added to the individual...

the C's "time as illusion" idea just refers to "a particular way of structuring" part of our being - from our perceptions, involving our cognitive layer, to the clock-work like mechanicalness of our physical movements? Somewhat similar to what DG was saying, I think...

In this picture, DNA could probably be pre-programmed by some external influence, or we can see it as an overlooked aspect of our regular programming.
Ark had given this link earlier. It discusses the two types of time from a physics point of view.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stone-catend/PIRT-IX-APStone-FullText.pdf

Maybe our programming is such that we are kind of stuck with noticing a path of least resistance and have little awareness of other patterns that do or could come into play.
 
Thanks Bluelamp. That's a bit complicated for me to follow though at this time. From my perspective, the universe has both non-linear (inductive) and linear (pre-determined, deductive-type) aspects. And consistent with that hermetic axiom: 'as above, so below', and the C's remarks concerning how we are a micro version of the macrocosm, the human brain/being does as well.

If they are trying to model the complete concept with software, I think maybe a part of the picture might always be missing. Computers are dynamite at what they do, but they don't have a context-based cognitive loop as yet (as far as I can tell :)).

Having said that, If you understand that paper well enough to translate it into a real life analogy or metaphor based on what can be perceived by the senses, I'd owe you one. :D
 
Bud said:
Thanks Bluelamp. That's a bit complicated for me to follow though at this time. From my perspective, the universe has both non-linear (inductive) and linear (pre-determined, deductive-type) aspects.

If they are trying to model the complete concept with software, I think maybe a part of the picture might always be missing.

Having said that, If you understand that paper well enough to translate it into a real life analogy or metaphor based on what can be perceived by the senses, I'd owe you one. :D

Let's say the whole history of the Universe (including the future) is represented on one playing card. This could be a normal boring general relativity universe but let's at least upgrade it to have some non-linear "infinity symbol" paths too. Then lets make another playing card that looks exactly like the first one. Then lets have a bunch of lines connecting back and forth between the two cards.

Following the lines back and forth can can create normal general relativity paths but perhaps in some places they create paths like going back and forth between the two cards and staying at the same point forever (it would be like suspended animation).

Lets say in reality there are lots and lots of cards that represent different universe possibilities with different connecting lines to the other cards. We however in our current states/playing cards seem to be stuck using connecting lines that mostly just recreate normal general relativity things. So even though these connecting lines between states have the ability to create really interesting patterns, we are kind of just using them to create general relativity things and most aren't even noticing interesting cyclical things that get in there too.

The "software" I think is just kind of showing that you can create really old paths with not so old spacetimes (kind of like the suspended animation example I gave).

Perhaps to really use the connecting lines in an interesting way, you need a "gravitational neutral" that Laura mentioned in the adventure series:

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/adventures268.htm

the gravitational neutral zone of a three body system which we have also identified as being connected to the wobble cycle of 18.6 years, which then connects to the "dancing of the god" at Stonehenge every 19 years, which is called the Metonic cycle. And of course, we are beginning to realize that all of this connects to the ideas of the Holy Grail, the Ark of the Covenant, and certain periods - cyclical in nature - in which transfer of perimeters is most easily accomplished!
 
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