To grow a soul, one must study events of the past

RflctnOfU

Jedi Council Member
First, the excerpt from Meetings:
Meetings p. 7 said:
[...]In the third year I had begun to give to this outline a form of exposition which might be understandable to others, at least to those specially trained in, so to say, abstract thinking. But since, little by little, I had become more adroit in the art of concealing serious thoughts in an enticing, easliy grasped outer form, and in making all those thoughts which I term 'discernible only with the lapse of time' ensue from others usual to the thinking of most contemporary people, I changed the principle I had been following and, instead of seeking to achieve the aim I had set myself in writing by quantity, I adopted the principle of attaining this by quality alone.[...]

The excerpt posted, I think, is from the revised edition of BT's. The edition I would HIGHLY suggest that you aquire, is the 1950 version published by penguin compass and is 1238 pages long. The excerpt of which I was speaking is as follows:

BT's 15-16 said:
In view of the fact that I have happened here accidentally to touch upon a question which has lately become one of my so to speak "hobbies," namely, the process of human mentation, I consider it possible, without waiting for the corresponding place predetermined by me for the elucidation of this question, to state already now in this first chapter at least something concerning that axiom which has accidentally become known to me, that on Earth in the past it has been usual in every century that every man, in whom there arises the boldness to attain the right to be considered by others and to consider himself a "conscious thinker," should be informed while still in the early years of his responsible existence that man has in general two kinds of mentation: one kind, mentation by thought, in which words, always possessing a relative sense, are employed; and the other kind, which is proper to all animals as well as to man, which I would call "mentation by form."
The second kind of mentation, that is, "mentation by form," by which, strictly speaking, the exact sense of all writing must be also perceived, and after conscious confrontation with information already possessed, be assimilated, is formed in people in dependence upon the conditions of geographical locality, climate, time, and, in general, upon the whole environment in which the arising of the given man has proceeded and in which his existence has flowed up to manhood.

In regards to the 'third series', this 'mentation by form' is the means by which access is 'granted', and it takes a definite quantity of the flow of time as well as effort struggling with the 'second series', or the dual meaning of the text, for this 'mentation by form' to settle. In short, a lot of practice is necessary to aquire this 'skill'. A hint regarding this type of mentation was given by G, and recounted in one of the lectures from Views from the Real World p. 105
Before going any further, it would be useful to learn to think according to a definite order. Let everyone take some object. Let each of you ask himself questions relating to the object and answer these according to his knowledge and material:
Its origin
The cause of its origin
Its history
Its qualities and attributes
Objects connected with it and related to it
Its use and application
Its results and effects
What it explains and proves
Its end or its future
Your opinion, the cause and motives of this opinion

Incidentally, this order of thinking is related to the enneagram, and will help deepen the understanding of it.

Kris

edit: added excerpt from meetings
 

ROEL

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
In the initial post of this subject, Data writes:

"In answer to this exclamation of Skridlov, Father Giovanni, having remained silent for a moment, expressed those remarkable thoughts which I consider it necessary to reproduce, in so far as possible, word for word. I shall place them, as relating to the question of the soul, that is, the third independently formed part of the common presence of a man, in the chapter entitled 'The divine body of man, and its needs and possible manifestations according to law', but only in the third series of my writings. [Note: This is Life is only real when I Am] [...]"

Emphasis above is mine.

I cannot find a chapter entitled 'The divine body of man, and its needs and possible manifestations according to law' in the third series. Therefore, I'm confused. Is there something I missed or misunderstood in said initial post?
 

RflctnOfU

Jedi Council Member
ROEL said:
In the initial post of this subject, Data writes:

"In answer to this exclamation of Skridlov, Father Giovanni, having remained silent for a moment, expressed those remarkable thoughts which I consider it necessary to reproduce, in so far as possible, word for word. I shall place them, as relating to the question of the soul, that is, the third independently formed part of the common presence of a man, in the chapter entitled 'The divine body of man, and its needs and possible manifestations according to law', but only in the third series of my writings. [Note: This is Life is only real when I Am] [...]"

Emphasis above is mine.

I cannot find a chapter entitled 'The divine body of man, and its needs and possible manifestations according to law' in the third series. Therefore, I'm confused. Is there something I missed or misunderstood in said initial post?

ROEL, if you will take the time to read the rest of the thread, that question is addressed.

Kris
 

dant

The Living Force
It seems to me, that different people have different G's PDF files?

I mention this only because if we are going to discuss G's series,
ought we be in sync? PDF files that I have are searchable.

I have PDF copies for all three series, and mine syncs with RflctnOfU's
BT but I am not sure about the others. I am willing to provide a link
which makes G's PDF accessible/download online but only if you think
is wise to do so?
 

RflctnOfU

Jedi Council Member
dant said:
It seems to me, that different people have different G's PDF files?

I mention this only because if we are going to discuss G's series,
ought we be in sync? PDF files that I have are searchable.

I have PDF copies for all three series, and mine syncs with RflctnOfU's
BT but I am not sure about the others. I am willing to provide a link
which makes G's PDF accessible/download online but only if you think
is wise to do so?

With the exception of an early typescript for life is real, there are no other editions of 'meetings' and 'life is real' available. (I have checked as far as I was able and came up zilch) Having the original version of BTs is the main concern IMO, as it was that book that G went to such pains to get published before he died. In my view, meetings and life is real are, at least to some extent, "flies turned into elephants" deliberately put out by G, to serve at least a few ends, one of which is to give hints regarding the second and third 'series', or the inner and inmost versions of BTs.

Kris
 

Kisito

Jedi Council Member
Extracted between father Giovanni , Professor Skridlov and G

"In our brotherhood there are two very old brothers , one is called the brother Akhel , the other Sèze [...] It Viennet here once or twice a year, and their arrival in our community is a great event. [...] The sermonts of these two brothers , who are saints almost equal degree , and who speak the same truth , have very different effects on all of us , especially me. When c ' Sèze is the brother who speaks, it sounds like the song of the bird of paradise . It is bewitched . [...] When is the brother Akhel preaching his word has an action almost opposite. He speaks evil of an indistinct voice [...] If sermonts Brother Sèze happen on- field a strong impression , by cons , the impression fades over time, and finally , there is nothing left . Regarding speech Brother Akhel , it does at first almost no impression. But time , the essence of his speech takes daily a more definite form, and enters a whole in the heart where it remains forever . [...] We set all to find out why this was so , and we came to the unanimous conclusion that sermonts brother Sèze came only from his intellect and therefore was only our intellect , while those of brother Akhel had his being and acting on our being. [...] and yes dear professor , knowledge and understanding are two entirely different things , only understanding can lead to be . Knowledge by itself has only a transient presence : New knowledge replaces the old , it is only nothingness poured into empty " .

It seems to me that the recapitulation is easier to read with our emotions interior, rather than listening to external speech.
 

David

Jedi Master
A seemingly random page selection of ‘Life is real only then, when I am’ landed on the end of the third talk while viewing this thread, funny how that works, sometimes

And so if you really wish to have in your self that which alone can distinguish a man from an ordinary animal, that is to say, if you wish to be really such a one to whom Great Nature has given the possibility with the desire, that is, with a desire issuing from all the three separate spiritualised parts and with the conscious striving to transform yourself into a so to say “cultivated soilfor the germination and growth of that upon which lay the hopes and expectations of the CREATOR OF EVERYTHING EXISTING, then you must always and in every-thing, struggling with the weaknesses that are in you according to law, attain at any cost, first of all, an all round understanding, and then the practical realisation in your presence,.....

Hopes and expectations of the creator of everything....? A bit of a tall order... if it’s for that which is unexpected, perhaps something extraordinary to emerge from what is known and expected of mechanical life.

As a person examining his or her past may conclude that there was no other outcome that lead to the narrative of what passes itself off as oneself today...
 

Niall

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
This went up on SOTT yesterday:

http://www.sott.net/article/284813-New-underground-structures-still-being-found-at-ancient-Armenian-city-of-Ani-first-discovered-by-Georges-Gurdjieff-in-the-19th-century

The original title of this article from Ancient Origins reads:

'Secret underground tunnels of ancient Mesopotamian cult revealed under Ani ruins'

...based on 'the original discovery by Georges Gurdjieff as told in his journal'.

I don't know what 'journal' this is, but they seem to be referring to a chapter from Meetings With Remarkable Men:

It was in the 1880s, that 'Underground Ani', as locals call it, was first discovered. George Ivanovic Gurdjieff, who spent most of his childhood and youth in Kars, was with a friend named Pogosyan, when he noticed a disturbance in the soil. They began digging until they came across a narrow tunnel. It was the beginning of an incredible discovery - secret water channels, undiscovered monk cells, meditation rooms, huge corridors, intricate tunnels, traps and corners were found under the ruins of the ancient Armenian town of Ani.

In one of the rooms, Gurdjieff found a scrap of parchment in a niche. Although he spoke Armenian very well, he had great difficulty reading the writing in the parchment. As it turns out, the text was written in an ancient Armenian language, the first sign that the underground world of Ani was very, very old.

After some time, Gurdjieff managed to piece together the meaning of the unusual script. He learned that the parchment was a letter written from one monk to another monk. According to the parchment, there was a famous Mesopotamian esoteric school in the place where they found the letters. Gurdjieff recorded his discovery in a journal. He writes:

MWRM said:
"We were especially interested in one letter in which the writer referred to information he had received concerning certain mysteries....Towards the end, one passage particularly attracted our attention. It said: 'Our worthy Father Telvant has at last succeeded in learning the truth about the Sarmoung Brotherhood. Their organisation actually did exist near the town of Siranoush, and fifty years ago, soon after the migration of peoples, they also migrated and settled in the valley of Izrumin, three days journey from Nivssi....' Then the letter went on about other matters. What struck us most was the word "Sarmoung", which we had come across several times in the book called "Merkhavat". This word is the name of a famous esoteric school which, according to tradition, was founded in Babylon as far back as 2500 BC, and which was known to have existed somewhere in Mesopotamia up to the sixth or seventh century AD; but about its further existence one could not obtain anywhere the least information. This school was said to have possessed great knowledge, containing the key to many secret mysteries."

"Gurdjieff's discovery, nearly 135 years ago, could not have been confirmed until the excavation works of 1915. Years later, an Italian excavation team confirmed that there was a monastery," said history researcher Sezai Yazıcı, who spoke at the symposium.

Whatever about the 'Sarmoung Brotherhood' being an "ancient Mesopotamian cult", we have a good idea that this 'accidental discovery' by Gurdjieff inspired his quest - or was at least significant enough to him to merit describing it in MWRM - to seek ancient knowledge throughout the Middle East and Central Asia, knowledge that formed the basis of his later work.

Given what we know now to be the likely reason for building underground structures (to cope with cosmic and environmental catastrophes),I think it's fascinating that Gurdjieff, of all people, discovered this underground city!
 

Persej

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
This part from MWRM is interesting:

Arriving in Alexandropol, we chose as such a place the isolated ruins of the ancient Armenian capital, Ani, which is thirty miles from Alexandropol, and having built a hut among the ruins we settled there, getting our food from the neighbouring villages and from shepherds.

Ani became the capital of the Bagratid kings of Armenia in the year 962. It was taken by the Byzantine Emperor in 1046, and at that time was already called the 'City of a Thousand Churches'. Later it was conquered by the Seljuk Turks; between 1125 and 1209 it was taken five times by the Georgians; in 1239 it was taken by the Mongols, and in 1313 it was completely destroyed by earthquake.

Among the ruins there are, by the way, the remains of the Patriarchs' Church, finished in the year 1010, the remains of two churches also of the eleventh century, and of a church which was completed about 1215.

At this point in my writings I cannot pass by in silence a fact which, in my opinion, may be of interest to certain readers, namely, that these historical data which I have just cited concerning the ancient Armenian capital Ani are the first, and I hope the last, that I have taken from information officially recognized on earth; that is to say, it is the first instance since the beginning of my writing activities in which I have had recourse to an encyclopedia.

What to make of that? Does it mean that G wanted us to study history of Ani?
 

Niall

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Persej said:
...and in 1313 it was completely destroyed by earthquake.

What to make of that? Does it mean that G wanted us to study history of Ani?

It may be where he had a 'lightbulb' moment and realized that civilizations can be wiped out rather suddenly.
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
FYI: I checked the Historical Events Database for this earthquake in 1313 but found no mention of it there yet.
 

Persej

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Kniall said:
It may be where he had a 'lightbulb' moment and realized that civilizations can be wiped out rather suddenly.

Aha. Yes, it could be. A city of 100,000–200,000 people wiped out with single earthquake. That information really would give him a 'lightbulb' moment.

Palinurus said:
FYI: I checked the Historical Events Database for this earthquake in 1313 but found no mention of it there yet.

Our modern encyclopedia, wikipedia, says it happened in 1319: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ani
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Persej said:
Kniall said:
It may be where he had a 'lightbulb' moment and realized that civilizations can be wiped out rather suddenly.

Aha. Yes, it could be. A city of 100,000–200,000 people wiped out with single earthquake. That information really would give him a 'lightbulb' moment.

Palinurus said:
FYI: I checked the Historical Events Database for this earthquake in 1313 but found no mention of it there yet.

Our modern encyclopedia, wikipedia, says it happened in 1319: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ani

Persej, I cannot find an explicit mentioning of an earthquake in wikipedia; not in the main article you referenced, nor in the article about the Cathedral. It simply states that the city was abandoned in 1319 for unspecified reasons, respectively that the dome of the cathedral collapsed in 1319, also without mentioning an earthquake or anything else as a cause.

The database has earthquakes mentioned for 1310 (Shahrizur. In Kurdistan) and 1316 (January 5, Gulpaigan. In Persia) with nothing in between.

This may not mean much, only that the sources thus far compiled didn't mention the Ani earthquake. But neither does wikipedia in so many words, as far as I can tell.

Nevertheless, there may be other sources besides Gurdjieff's mentioning of it. They have yet to be found, though....
 

Persej

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Palinurus said:
Persej, I cannot find an explicit mentioning of an earthquake in wikipedia; not in the main article you referenced, nor in the article about the Cathedral. It simply states that the city was abandoned in 1319 for unspecified reasons, respectively that the dome of the cathedral collapsed in 1319, also without mentioning an earthquake or anything else as a cause.

The database has earthquakes mentioned for 1310 (Shahrizur. In Kurdistan) and 1316 (January 5, Gulpaigan. In Persia) with nothing in between.

This may not mean much, only that the sources thus far compiled didn't mention the Ani earthquake. But neither does wikipedia in so many words, as far as I can tell.

Nevertheless, there may be other sources besides Gurdjieff's mentioning of it. They have yet to be found, though....

Yes, they didn't mention explicitly an earthquake as a cause of destruction, but they did quoted "Landmarks Foundation" where they said: "Earthquakes in 1319, 1832, and 1988, Army Target practice and general neglect all have had devastating effects on the architecture of the city."

And on this website it says:

It is a myth (still propagated in many guide books about Turkey) that the city was abandoned after an earthquake in 1319.

http://www.virtualani.org/history/part1.htm

G probably read some of those books. I guess we still don't know much about Ani.
 
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