To post or not to post...there is the question !

[Esprit]

Hello everybody ! ;)

I want to participate but I find myself waiting and waiting and reporting a lot. One of the reason is to avoid noise. Another is before posting I usually use search to find if there was already a post on the subject. But I could do that indefinitly as one search lead to more search of other subjects and I could just wait untill I read all the books and posts before having something usefull to add.

I am currently reading Trapped in the Mirror from Elan Golomb. A hammer in the face of the narcissist that I'm finding out inside of me. I always thought of narcissists of someone spending his entire day looking at himself in front of a mirror, turns out there is much, much more than that. As it is, narcissists tend to surround themselves with other narcissists now I'm realising that all my close friends are as well.

I had a submerging feeling of compassion thinking about you guys who are deeper into The Work as how much isolation it can bring to see all those things in others and I'd like to say a very warm thank you for taking the time to listen and share with the newbies, your presence is invaluable and hopefully, I will eventually be able to communicate with you on a greater level as I am struggling to get into close relationship, probably a result of trying to avoid the truth in me, avoiding shocks.

Wich brings me to the question of interdependency. I always tried to make my way through life doing as much as I can by my own. I never wanted to be dependent of anyone or anything. I think it was Gurdjieff who mentionned that knowledge must be learned through someone knowledgeable.

So does that ultimately mean that there is absolutely no way of doing The Work on your own ?

I'm thinking about the very first ones who did it. Was there ever somebody to teach ?

I feel needy just asking...like my posts are demands rather than contributions. Another thing preventing me from posting.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Good question about why the Work can't be done on one's own. I think it has to do with what Gurdjieff said about how easy it is to sleep but dream that you are awake. To counter that you need alarm clocks but even those won't work after a while. You need other people to agree to wake you up if they see you sleeping.

 

[T.C.]

Hi Esprit!

Well done for posting :)

Hello everybody ! ;)

I want to participate but I find myself waiting and waiting and reporting a lot. One of the reason is to avoid noise. Another is before posting I usually use search to find if there was already a post on the subject. But I could do that indefinitly as one search lead to more search of other subjects and I could just wait untill I read all the books and posts before having something usefull to add.

I don't think it's very useful to just post things for the sake of posting things, just because you feel like posting something. But the network is here to discuss things and answer questions. I don't think this post is noise - it's good to hear from you.

It's not just about thinking of something interesting to start a thread with, either. You can contribute your own thoughts and experiences to other threads, too.

I am currently reading Trapped in the Mirror from Elan Golomb. A hammer in the face of the narcissist that I'm finding out inside of me. I always thought of narcissists of someone spending his entire day looking at himself in front of a mirror, turns out there is much, much more than that. As it is, narcissists tend to surround themselves with other narcissists now I'm realising that all my close friends are as well.

Yes, it's bad enough when we see these traits in ourselves, but when we realise our friends have them too, it's pretty painful.

But here we are on planet Earth in the year 2017, and "if you play in the dirt, you're going to get dirty." I don't think there are many people around who've managed to avoid picking up narcissistic traits. At the end of the day, we're all just human beings who've tried to do our best with what we had.

But to become informed on these topics, we can improve and become better people.

your presence is invaluable and hopefully, I will eventually be able to communicate with you on a greater level as I am struggling to get into close relationship, probably a result of trying to avoid the truth in me, avoiding shocks.

By "close relationship", do you mean a romantic relationship?

Wich brings me to the question of interdependency. I always tried to make my way through life doing as much as I can by my own. I never wanted to be dependent of anyone or anything. I think it was Gurdjieff who mentionned that knowledge must be learned through someone knowledgeable.

So does that ultimately mean that there is absolutely no way of doing The Work on your own ?

I'm thinking about the very first ones who did it. Was there ever somebody to teach ?

I think, yes, there's no way of doing the Work on your own. One of the problems of our condition is that we can't see ourselves clearly, and so we need other people who are sincere and truly care about us to point out our blindspots.

There's also the important fact that 100 different people have 100 different life experiences, and so they can all accelerate each other's development by sharing their experiences. Because of this, we could maybe learn 100 times more in one life than we could without a connection to a network.

As for the "first" initiates, I'm not sure about that. What comes to mind is someone like Mikao Usui, the originator of the practice of reiki. He said that the method and associated symbols and practices just sort of "came to him". Likewise, there are shamanic experiences and so forth. So it seems the Universe likes to give the human race a helping hand from 'outside', sometimes.

I feel needy just asking...like my posts are demands rather than contributions. Another thing preventing me from posting.

Well, there's the argument that by participating and sharing, you're giving something to the network. Interactions are always a two-way thing.

And those here with a lot of experience are pretty good at spotting feeding and manipulation. So if someone was sincerely wanting to Work on themselves and they had it brought to their attention that that's what they're doing, then they'd be very grateful for the info :)

 

[PhoenixToEmber]

Hello everybody ! ;)

I want to participate but I find myself waiting and waiting and reporting a lot. One of the reason is to avoid noise. Another is before posting I usually use search to find if there was already a post on the subject. But I could do that indefinitly as one search lead to more search of other subjects and I could just wait untill I read all the books and posts before having something usefull to add.

Just because there are already posts on a specific subject doesn't mean you don't have anything to contribute. Even if you find you're saying the same thing as other members, perhaps it may be something worth repeating on that thread - your post could make the difference of something really "sinking in" for other members.

I am currently reading Trapped in the Mirror from Elan Golomb. A hammer in the face of the narcissist that I'm finding out inside of me. I always thought of narcissists of someone spending his entire day looking at himself in front of a mirror, turns out there is much, much more than that. As it is, narcissists tend to surround themselves with other narcissists now I'm realising that all my close friends are as well.

Great book. Read it over a year ago and had similar realizations. It helps to remember, though, that we live in a narcissistic society, and such values trickle down from the more pathological leaders into the entire populace, so it's really no surprise that we, and most of our friends and family, will exhibit those characteristics. It's a vicious cycle. Being raised by narcissists breeds more narcissists.

I had a submerging feeling of compassion thinking about you guys who are deeper into The Work as how much isolation it can bring to see all those things in others and I'd like to say a very warm thank you for taking the time to listen and share with the newbies, your presence is invaluable and hopefully, I will eventually be able to communicate with you on a greater level as I am struggling to get into close relationship, probably a result of trying to avoid the truth in me, avoiding shocks.

I think avoiding posting, opening ourselves up, discussing our issues, and networking is likely an avoidance of the shocks, whether consciously or unconsciously. The shocks definitely hurt. It's not pleasant to begin seeing who and what we really are, and just how little control we have over ourselves, and how what we think is "us" is really a multitude of "I's" that make up a false personality.

Wich brings me to the question of interdependency. I always tried to make my way through life doing as much as I can by my own. I never wanted to be dependent of anyone or anything. I think it was Gurdjieff who mentionned that knowledge must be learned through someone knowledgeable.

So does that ultimately mean that there is absolutely no way of doing The Work on your own ?

I'm thinking about the very first ones who did it. Was there ever somebody to teach ?

It seems unlikely that it's possible to do the Work on our own. Unfortunately, we are blind to many aspects of ourselves, so it becomes necessary to network with others doing the Work who often see us better than we're able to see ourselves, especially at the beginning of the process. This is how we begin to notice the "little I's" and to identify them. When one steps in we aren't perceptive enough to notice - we identify with it so much it feels like it's really "us" - because we don't yet know our True Self we think we are the same person from moment to moment. But others who have been observing us as well as themselves enough to know how fractured we all are, are able to point it out to us, and we may even be capable of pointing out the pitfalls in others. It creates a shock, the shock lights a fire inside of us, and if we can sustain the heat long enough without buffering the shock, we may begin to "takes notes" about ourselves and identify the various "I's" and the centers. Eventually, we may be able to solidify into a single, complete "I", but this takes a very long and sustained effort, and it certainly requires teachers and other students undergoing the process alongside us.

 

[luc]

Hi Esprit,

There, you did it - you posted a very good post, sharing your observations (which ultimately helps others here), and bringing up some interesting questions! ;)

Wich brings me to the question of interdependency. I always tried to make my way through life doing as much as I can by my own. I never wanted to be dependent of anyone or anything. I think it was Gurdjieff who mentionned that knowledge must be learned through someone knowledgeable.

So does that ultimately mean that there is absolutely no way of doing The Work on your own ?

I'm thinking about the very first ones who did it. Was there ever somebody to teach ?

As far as I understand it, in the Work, or esoteric quest if you will, there always needs to be someone who initiates you. You can think of this place with all the great knowledge as the one doing the initiation. If you want to know how to do it 'alone', I think you will find some answers in Laura's Wave series and in her autobiography Amazing Grace. Suffice to say it's a very hard way indeed, and even then, there was someone who initiated her: a higher source, the Cs. That's my take on it at least.

As to how the Work is done - I think it is done both alone and in a group. By this I mean, we apply the Work principles in our daily lives as best as we can, just as you do when you observe your reactions to knowledge, other people in your life and so on, and learn about yourself and possible actions. However, we know from psychology that our thinking can, and will, go horribly wrong: we twist the concepts we learn, create narratives to justify certain behavior, apply the wrong concepts to the wrong situations etc. All this can, and does, lead us astray. That's why it is so crucially important to share with other people in the Work when we struggle, are not sure, worry, doubt, or run into problems - which will happen if we choose this path. Others then can correct our thinking with an informed look from outside.

Just my 2 cents, I hope it makes sense!

I feel needy just asking...like my posts are demands rather than contributions. Another thing preventing me from posting.

Nonsense! Your post was very helpful, not only for you but others as well. See, I just tried to explain something and thus had to think about it and formulate my thoughts, so I learned something from it. Maybe someone will offer a different perspective or correct me, in which case I learned even more. Everyone wins!

 

[lainey]

Good question about why the Work can't be done on one's own. I think it has to do with what Gurdjieff said about Joe easy it is to sleep but dream that you are awake. To counter that you need alarm clocks but even those won't work after a while. You need other people to agree to wake you up if they see you sleeping.

Plus, you would only have your own subjective view of things for feedback, so it would be nigh-on impossible to pick the truth out of anything seen through the lens through which you view the world.

Thanks for sharing, I find that the more you post, the easier it gets. You could post in areas that will help all members who read your feedback. Like sharing EE experiences, how you are managing with your diet and health, any results you get from detoxes that you take part in, or sharing your interpretations of other members posts who have asked for advice.

There are threads for many of the books that members read. You could share your view on some of the titles you have read and get tips on where to go next.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy!

 

[PhoenixToEmber]

As to how the Work is done - I think it is done both alone and in a group. By this I mean, we apply the Work principles in our daily lives as best as we can, just as you do when you observe your reactions to knowledge, other people in your life and so on, and learn about yourself and possible actions. However, we know from psychology that our thinking can, and will, go horribly wrong: we twist the concepts we learn, create narratives to justify certain behavior, apply the wrong concepts to the wrong situations etc. All this can, and does, lead us astray. That's why it is so crucially important to share with other people in the Work when we struggle, are not sure, worry, doubt, or run into problems - which will happen if we choose this path. Others then can correct our thinking with an informed look from outside.

This is a good point. It's done alone in the sense that no one can make the choice to set on this path for you, and no one can take action for you to wake up, to change, to become master of yourself. At the same time, one cannot take action to wake up, to change, to master themselves if they are blind to themselves in ways only others doing the Work can point out to them. Others can direct you, point you in the right direction, but only you can make the steps in that direction. For example, I can recommend a good book that may be helpful to you regarding a certain issue, but I can't read that book for you and pour the information into your head - I can't absorb the information for you, and apply that knowledge for you.

 

[Esprit]

By "close relationship", do you mean a romantic relationship?

I'm actually alternating between being open and honest and close myself. So in that sense for romantic relationships it makes hard to keep the relation alive as I tend to go on and off with an authentic exchange. Same thing can be applied to 'regular' relationships. As I speek about it, I think it can simply be alternating between being awake or sleeping basically....Mmmmm...

There's also the important fact that 100 different people have 100 different life experiences, and so they can all accelerate each other's development by sharing their experiences. Because of this, we could maybe learn 100 times more in one life than we could without a connection to a network.

Good point. I can surely say that without my involvement and opening with other people's point of views, I would still be at the very basics of what this life as brought to me in terms of learning to this day.

As for the "first" initiates, I'm not sure about that. What comes to mind is someone like Mikao Usui, the originator of the practice of reiki. He said that the method and associated symbols and practices just sort of "came to him". Likewise, there are shamanic experiences and so forth. So it seems the Universe likes to give the human race a helping hand from 'outside', sometimes.

My Reiki master told us that he received the symbols as flash through his mind walking outside if I recall correctly. My teacher has been thought my a lady named Brown who was thought by Hawayo Takata if remember correctly. It seems the lineage is good. She did a lot of research to find the real Reiki line and was certified twice and travelled to the US because she wanted to know who was teaching what and wich one was worth it. She took the time to explain to us where Reiki was coming from on complete night of history before a full week end of teaching. She seemed to have done quite a lot of research on the subject I would recommend her for anyone around Montreal.

And those here with a lot of experience are pretty good at spotting feeding and manipulation. So if someone was sincerely wanting to Work on themselves and they had it brought to their attention that that's what they're doing, then they'd be very grateful for the info :)

I'm counting on it I'm in the mood for peircing, striking truths !

 

[Esprit]

It creates a shock, the shock lights a fire inside of us, and if we can sustain the heat long enough without buffering the shock, we may begin to "takes notes" about ourselves and identify the various "I's" and the centers. Eventually, we may be able to solidify into a single, complete "I", but this takes a very long and sustained effort, and it certainly requires teachers and other students undergoing the process alongside us.

I like this idea very much. I think I've been doing it, sustaining the eat the way I see it, could be simply self-remembering, as the observer, letting the emotions flow to identify the source wich I think often comes from the mind as judgement on events (lies).

 

[Esprit]

As far as I understand it, in the Work, or esoteric quest if you will, there always needs to be someone who initiates you. You can think of this place with all the great knowledge as the one doing the initiation. If you want to know how to do it 'alone', I think you will find some answers in Laura's Wave series and in her autobiography Amazing Grace. Suffice to say it's a very hard way indeed, and even then, there was someone who initiated her: a higher source, the Cs. That's my take on it at least.

I'm currently at chapter 46 it's a great read. I noticed how some of the C's concept have been borrowed or repeated by another channel. Namely the concept of Celebrating:

Q: Hello. Are you there? I am not comfortable with this information about SV. It seems to be contradictory to everything I can observe and feel.

A: Hiklu Cassiopaea. Worry not further! Discomfort is not necessarily danger, and is indicative of growth and learning. So, proceed and celebrate!!

It's been noted to me to avoid talking about other channels but can we possibly debate on some concept that's been channeled elsewhere ?

Although I realised with time the possibility of split channel and it would make sense in a lot of the material I read, I feel there are also some very interesting info or guidance. So what's the verdict on this ?
Can we talk about other sources with an open mind about it being true or false ?

As to how the Work is done - I think it is done both alone and in a group. By this I mean, we apply the Work principles in our daily lives as best as we can, just as you do when you observe your reactions to knowledge, other people in your life and so on, and learn about yourself and possible actions. However, we know from psychology that our thinking can, and will, go horribly wrong: we twist the concepts we learn, create narratives to justify certain behavior, apply the wrong concepts to the wrong situations etc. All this can, and does, lead us astray. That's why it is so crucially important to share with other people in the Work when we struggle, are not sure, worry, doubt, or run into problems - which will happen if we choose this path. Others then can correct our thinking with an informed look from outside.

I noticed some parts of myself contradicting. It's been brought to me by my surroundings and on the spot when it happens the ego does'nt want to let go, 'I know I'm right' kind of attitude. When actually there is an inside conflict that wants to say that they are right and that i'm contradicting myself. Also comes with it, some people will criticize you for being honest, pointing the finger at you ' there you see your wrong and blablabla...' so sometimes I feel it's just better to continue with the lie, even if I was just toabout to correct myself to avoid unnecessery conflicts.

Nonsense! Your post was very helpful, not only for you but others as well. See, I just tried to explain something and thus had to think about it and formulate my thoughts, so I learned something from it. Maybe someone will offer a different perspective or correct me, in which case I learned even more. Everyone wins!

That's very heartwarming and I appreciate a lot thanks to you all for your amazing support !

 

[Esprit]

Good question about why the Work can't be done on one's own. I think it has to do with what Gurdjieff said about Joe easy it is to sleep but dream that you are awake. To counter that you need alarm clocks but even those won't work after a while. You need other people to agree to wake you up if they see you sleeping.

That's scary ! a dream in a dream...Now The Matrix is inside Inception !

Plus, you would only have your own subjective view of things for feedback, so it would be nigh-on impossible to pick the truth out of anything seen through the lens through which you view the world.

Good point. It's very easy to tell yourself you know the truth when nobody is validating you !

Thanks for sharing, I find that the more you post, the easier it gets. You could post in areas that will help all members who read your feedback. Like sharing EE experiences, how you are managing with your diet and health, any results you get from detoxes that you take part in, or sharing your interpretations of other members posts who have asked for advice.

There are threads for many of the books that members read. You could share your view on some of the titles you have read and get tips on where to go next.

It seems easier to post about myself than to make research to bring to the board or continuing a post with my thoughts. I recently found the newbie section to be very enlightning as the question and answers in those are like baby steps I can relate to!
You made me realised of conflicting personnalities in me. Two contradicting sides of narcissim- One wants to be the center of the attention, the king and be admired for who he is by starting a post and the other the negative introjection says your not good enough or not qualified to post or comment.