Tonal rill

[Alejo]

This is very interesting,

In the latest session they mentioned our 1D bodies, I wonder if it is related, at 1D our bodies would be composed of tissue and organs perhaps, minerals too, all arranged in geometric patterns that would resonate with certain sounds. Sickness or injury is then perhaps a disarray of the harmonious geometric structure of these minerals and tissue, sound then would work as an iron does or a massage on the muscles, maybe... providing the information needed for the structure to return to its optimal form.

I wonder if the stones have to have a similar geometric structure as the ones found in our bodies for the sounds they produce to resonate with our bodies and thus produce healing. I wonder if what the C's said about sub notes and several stones is similar to homeopathy, where sometimes several ingredients are needed for an individual depending on their specific make up.

Much like with homeopathy, perhaps we all have a specific geometric signature that is matched by certain stones and the sounds they produce, but with Sounds it becomes interesting as you need to add time and tempo and melody perhaps.. so it's not so much hitting rocks to produce sound.. it's music that needs to be produced so that it interacts with the body, and if so then perhaps the rocks contain the sound, but they're parts of a larger melody, and this melody is what matches the geometry within us. That's where math would enter the picture, it may not be just the sounds that can heal, is the sounds when arranged geometrically, via melody, to produce music that resonates with the body.

Which if you think about language, it's not just sounds, it's sounds modulated to produce language that contains information and meaning. So, adding melody to sounds, or creating melody with sounds, it's adding information, this information is then given to the body for healing.

The above are of course just my musings, but it's very interesting to consider the implications, not just positively but the negative implications of it as well.

 

[rrraven]

Continuing your musing ... I am reminded of the german saying ,, wo man singt , da lass dich gerne nieder , bose menschen singen keine lieder ,, meaning where people sing you can gladly settle , evil people don't sing songs

Music to your ears another way of saying you can hear the harmony or it resonates with you

Math , geometry, music ....that just shouts Pythagoras, didn't he develop the musical scale thru math/geometry
alone

And we all do sing to stones already our crystals, l wonder what would happen if we did that on a leyline node?
Find a ley line near you and try
Here in Australia we have song lines ! And your ,,totem,, is what songline your mother was closest to when she felt the first kicks
There is a funny story told by Bruce Chadvin in his book Songlines where some elders were riding in a truck on a trip to country and they asked the driver to slow down because they could not sing so fast

 

[aragorn]

Polyvagal theory talks about the auditory/acoustic pathways to a ventral vagal state where healing potential is maximised. Apparently in sympathetic mobilisation or dorsal vagal states the muscles of the inner ear tune hearing toward the detection of low frequency sounds associated with predators and where the ability to hear human voices is diminished. In those states, resources are either directed toward defense/fight/flight or shut down rather than healing and growing. However prosody of voice and tone can help support a ventral vagal state or vagal resilience and flexibility. According to Porges the best frequencies to use are those of a regulated mother talking to a child or the voice used when talking to a puppy. Maybe that has something to do with tonal rill or healing properties magnified or transmitted by the stones.

Would you happen to know the specific source in which Porges states the above more explicitly? As I'm writing my dissertation on the topic of children's singing, the above would be a valuable addition for one of my main arguments, that is, that it is preferable and more natural for children to sing in higher keys and to use plenty of the so called 'head voice' register, instead of using the darker 'chest voice', which is unfortunately very common these days due to the lack of know-how and because the kids imitate their adult 'pop idols' (which are often also digitally 'enhanced').

I have a number of articles by Porges but it would save me some time if you could point me in the right direction.

 

[Jones]

Would you happen to know the specific source in which Porges states the above more explicitly? As I'm writing my dissertation on the topic of children's singing, the above would be a valuable addition for one of my main arguments, that is, that it is preferable and more natural for children to sing in higher keys and to use plenty of the so called 'head voice' register, instead of using the darker 'chest voice', which is unfortunately very common these days due to the lack of know-how and because the kids imitate their adult 'pop idols' (which are often also digitally 'enhanced').

I have a number of articles by Porges but it would save me some time if you could point me in the right direction.

Sure, he hasn't given away the exact frequencies he's using as far as I know - I haven't yet read the papers below, but his Safe and Sound Protocol is one of the interventions he has developed. Here's what I've posted about it so far:

The Polyvagal Theory - Stephen W. Porges

Been listening to about 6hrs a week of youtube vids on polyvagal theory while watching some things unfold and figure since things have been heating up in a lot of different area's that more and more peeps are going to struggle against stress reactions. Reminded me of the following on trigger...

cassiopaea.org

The Polyvagal Theory - Stephen W. Porges

Been listening to about 6hrs a week of youtube vids on polyvagal theory while watching some things unfold and figure since things have been heating up in a lot of different area's that more and more peeps are going to struggle against stress reactions. Reminded me of the following on trigger...

cassiopaea.org

The Polyvagal Theory - Stephen W. Porges

Been listening to about 6hrs a week of youtube vids on polyvagal theory while watching some things unfold and figure since things have been heating up in a lot of different area's that more and more peeps are going to struggle against stress reactions. Reminded me of the following on trigger...

cassiopaea.org

Here are some papers he's written on the subject:

"In this peer-reviewed study, children with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) who used an early version of the SSP experienced significant improvements in emotional organization, listening, spontaneous speech and hearing sensitivities."

Reducing Auditory Hypersensitivities in Autistic Spectrum Disorder: Preliminary Findings Evaluating the Listening Project Protocol - PMC

Auditory hypersensitivities are a common feature of autism spectrum disorder (ASD). In the present study, the effectiveness of a novel intervention, the listening project protocol (LPP), was evaluated in two trials conducted with children diagnosed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"In a second peer-reviewed study, higher functioning individuals with ASD were tested using an early version of the SSP. The study showed that auditory processing and state regulation improved following the intervention."

Respiratory sinus arrhythmia and auditory processing in autism: Modifiable deficits of an integrated social engagement system? - PMC

The current study evaluated processes underlying two common symptoms (i.e., state regulation problems and deficits in auditory processing) associated with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorders. Although these symptoms have been treated in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And about the clinical trials in progress:

3 clinical trials in progress

1. To evaluate the effectiveness of the LPP/SSP in children with a trauma history. Funded by the Australian Childhood Foundation.
2. To evaluate the effectiveness of LPP/SSP in people with ADD who have difficulties with autonomic and/or behavioral regulation. In cooperation with: ADD Centre and Biofeedback Institute of Toronto.
3. To evaluate the effectiveness of LPP/SSP in emotionally disturbed and learning-challenged young people who have difficulties with autonomic and/or behavioral regulation. Funded by the Reiss-Davis Child Study Center of Vista Del Mar.

 

[aragorn]

Sure, he hasn't given away the exact frequencies he's using as far as I know - I haven't yet read the papers below, but his Safe and Sound Protocol is one of the interventions he has developed. Here's what I've posted about it so far:

The Polyvagal Theory - Stephen W. Porges

Been listening to about 6hrs a week of youtube vids on polyvagal theory while watching some things unfold and figure since things have been heating up in a lot of different area's that more and more peeps are going to struggle against stress reactions. Reminded me of the following on trigger...

cassiopaea.org

The Polyvagal Theory - Stephen W. Porges

Been listening to about 6hrs a week of youtube vids on polyvagal theory while watching some things unfold and figure since things have been heating up in a lot of different area's that more and more peeps are going to struggle against stress reactions. Reminded me of the following on trigger...

cassiopaea.org

The Polyvagal Theory - Stephen W. Porges

Been listening to about 6hrs a week of youtube vids on polyvagal theory while watching some things unfold and figure since things have been heating up in a lot of different area's that more and more peeps are going to struggle against stress reactions. Reminded me of the following on trigger...

cassiopaea.org

Here are some papers he's written on the subject:

"In this peer-reviewed study, children with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) who used an early version of the SSP experienced significant improvements in emotional organization, listening, spontaneous speech and hearing sensitivities."

Reducing Auditory Hypersensitivities in Autistic Spectrum Disorder: Preliminary Findings Evaluating the Listening Project Protocol - PMC

Auditory hypersensitivities are a common feature of autism spectrum disorder (ASD). In the present study, the effectiveness of a novel intervention, the listening project protocol (LPP), was evaluated in two trials conducted with children diagnosed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"In a second peer-reviewed study, higher functioning individuals with ASD were tested using an early version of the SSP. The study showed that auditory processing and state regulation improved following the intervention."

Respiratory sinus arrhythmia and auditory processing in autism: Modifiable deficits of an integrated social engagement system? - PMC

The current study evaluated processes underlying two common symptoms (i.e., state regulation problems and deficits in auditory processing) associated with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorders. Although these symptoms have been treated in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And about the clinical trials in progress:

Wow, that was fast! Many, many thanks!

 

[Jones]

Wow, that was fast! Many, many thanks!

You're welcome Just thought of something else, if it's not already in the links above, Porges mentions somewhere that he is using existing music, but removing the frequencies that are not in the target range. He mentioned Simon and Garfunkel in one of his video's on the subject, but not which song or songs.

 

[heinrich]

And for anyone wondering about the "tonal rill" thing:

the singing of the molecules of the rock makes think of the crystal skulls...

 

[brandon]

An interesting resonance .. coincidence? (nothing new or informative, just a cool thing in a fictional work):

I'm reading a series of science fantasy sort of novels, the 'Ea Cycle' by David Zindell, for the first time. I like his 'Neverness' series of science fiction novels very much, and reading those it seemed to me that he's read a great deal of religious and esoteric type stuff, like Gurdjieff and who knows what else.. It fully permeates those books.. Many of his ideas seem to me to mesh with things the C's have said. But they're fiction books after all.. Sort of a mish-mash of ideas and terms borrowed from various places, but the books have a good heart.

These Ea books are basically a quest for the Holy Grail type thing, with knights in a medieval world searching for the "lightstone", which takes the form of a golden cup. The "magic" people use in these books is all done with stones, "gelstei", different kinds of stones having different uses.

In the bit I'm up to - book 3 'The Silver Sword', chapter 13, page 231 to be precise - a scholar is in an ancient library, accessing information stored in "thought stones" - which can record and replay information by directly interacting with the user's mind..

'Do you remember the passage from the Beginnings?: "The Lightstone is the perfect jewel within the lotus found inside the human heart."'
'A beautiful metaphor,' I said.
'Beautiful, yes - and perhaps something more.' Master Juwain gazed above us at the dome's clear windows that let in the light of the stars. 'You see, there are the infinities.'
'Sir?'
He looked back at me and showed me the thought stone. He said, 'This little gelstei is a finite thing, as is the knowledge it contains - as are all things. The One, of course, is infinite. But the Lightstone, somehow, is both.'
Now all of us, even Maram, stared at the golden contours of the Lightstone as if seeing it for the first time.
'And as with the Lightstone,' Master Juwain continued, 'so with the Maitreya. We know that he is the one who has a perfect resonance with it. There is a sense that in order for this to be so, he must sacrifice his finiteness - his very humanity.'
I gripped the Lightstone so tightly that it hurt my fingers. I shook my head because I did not know what Master Juwain's words could mean. I said, 'If only there was more.'
'I'm afraid that's all I gleaned from this first pass. But if I'd had more time...'
His voice died off into the library's half-light.
'Yes?' I said to him.
'Well, you see,' he said, 'there was one stream of recordings, more like a rill, actually, that I might have followed. A hint of a hint about some great store of knowledge concerning the Lightstone.' ....

"..more like a rill, actually..".. strange thing to write in there..in a section about receiving knowledge by consciousness interaction with stones, no less. I wonder if he's read Laura's work? This book was published in 2004. Also note "the light of the stars"..

 

[Benjamin]

I haven't been participating on the forum for a few months very much and I apologize. But about two months ago, I just decided to see if I could clarify the 'acoustical levitation of rocks' business for myself, and dived into the transcripts, YT, elsewheres. I made some pretty major connections (for me at least) and I thought I was really getting somewhere when something happened and I all of a sudden went on a downward spiralling tangent that took me until (maybe) last week to recover from. I do feel better now but it was a very strange month. Anyway, I've got so much to go organise that I'm breaking it up to lighten the load.

One of the areas that I looked into was the 'sub-tones' reference made by the C's.

(Pierre) I have another question if we can change topic. There is this French scientist who discovered those Paleolithic pestles made of rock. For decades they thought they were used to crush seeds or whatever. By chance, he dropped one - and he's a musician - and he found that it sounded good when it hit the ground. So, he started to analyze all these pestles. He found that each of them was tuned. Each of them generated a perfect note. Now their hypothesis is that the pestles weren't pestles, but a musical instrument. Are these pestles only used as musical instruments?

A: No, not even close. Healing tones produced when struck in correct sequence and combination.

Q: (Pierre) So it means some kind of music? Perfect tunes? If you play the right notes in the right sequence... And the right combination... Music can be healing.

A: Important that the tone is accompanied by subtones and frequencies that are natural to the stone and "speak" to the cells in the body.

Q: (L) So I guess you can't just play the music.

(Pierre) No, it's more elaborate than that. But it means a great amount of knowledge...

A: Notice the specific stones chosen for Stonehenge.

There's also this section from Dec 1, 2018:

(Pierre) About frequencies... In a previous session, we mentioned this prehistoric stone that was perfectly tuned. The C's said that it was not a musical instrument, but instead for healing. They said you can't heal with a single tone, but with the proper tones and sub-tones. You need the right combination. I guess past civilizations had this knowledge. Today in our modern world, are there remnants of music or song that convey part of this knowledge?

A: Yes

Q: (Pierre) Oh yeah? Which one?

(L) Which one what?

(Pierre) Which song or type of music is closest to the tones and sub-tones that have those healing properties?

A: Gregorian chant.

As a side-note, I'm just going to add this section from Nov. 7, 1998 because of a little tie-in:

Q: Alright: 'mathematics converts to sound in geometric measurements.' When we set up these figures...

A: Imagine an interlocking triangular mosaic in three dimensions.

Q: When one wishes to apply this, does one somehow... Is the sound inside one?

A: It is all around and through you.

Q: Is it a sound that can be perceived with the physical ears?

A: Yes.

Q: What frequency?

A: Not issue. Tone.

Q: Tone and...

A: Vibratory pitch.

One of the definitions for 'tone' is, “A recitational melody in a Gregorian chant.” It's just an interesting tidbit. And for clarification, 'vibratory pitch' is frequency, and 'tone' is the quality of the sound/note/music, the emotion, if you will.

Ok, so, I don't know which Paleolithic pestles Pierre was talking about but here are a bunch from Vigaya Vittala Temple (15th century) in Hampi, India. I'm sure many know about these pillars already, but just in case:

There are also other stones from Hampi that make notes when struck.

These types of 'singing stones' are known as lithophones made of Phonolite, from the Greek word meaning 'sounding stone'.

In this video, Praveen Mohan visits the site known as the Bell Rock of Kanchanagiri (Temple) Hills, Lalapet, India, known to locals as 'Shiva's musical instrument'. I ran into this video early on, and he said several interesting things, but the one that I'm focusing on here is at 8:20:

Ancient Indians used these sonorous rocks for a specific reason. They would basically lie down on it and somebody would tap on the edges. And this procedure would continue for hours. They believed that this would heal their body and their consciousness.

Now, none of the above examples deal with sub-tones. From the first quote from the C's, in order for the rocks to provide healing, sub-tones that 'are natural' to them need to be a part of a combination. If you do a search on the forum, you'll find that there is much discussion for 'overtone(s)' but almost nothing for 'sub(-)tone(s)', so here's a bit of what I've found.

There are many videos, actually, to be found on this topic. Here are a few descriptive videos from people who can sing in the sub-harmonic range which can be accessed through a technique known as ‘vocal fry’
.

As a start, here is an eleven year old video from BBC News on ‘vocal fry’, for those who are not familiar. It's not the best video, I don’t know if this is meant to be a satire or not, but I’m posting it to show a 'real world' application and also because at 0:37 it briefly shows what the throat looks like making the sound.


Here is a short tutorial on sub-harmonics from professional singer Tao Yang (Bass2Yang). He has several tutorials that are more in-depth.


Tutorial - Vocal Subharmonics (How to Sing Subharmonics)- Bass2Yang (10:04)

- YouTube

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Also a thirty second example of Yang's sub-harmonic range.


Subharmonics Example: Full Subharmonic Range Scale - D2 to D1- Bass2Yang (0:30)

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Two more examples with explanations.

How to Sing REALLY Low- Geoff Castellucci (6:42)

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How to Sing Lower: Subharmonic Bass tutorial- David Kahn (9:03)

- YouTube

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David Lawson has many videos on singing sub-harmonics, but he kinda gets repetitive. This one, however, was quite interesting, I thought, and for sub-harmonics (example #2) he says this at 2:19:

In order to enter your "sub-harmonic register"- that's what we'll call it- you have to allow your vocal folds to vibrate at two different rates- two different but consistent rates. Let me explain. For the first sub-harmonic, you need a wavelength ratio that is formed by a 'perfect 5th'. Let's take, for example, 'harmonic D2'. we start with a 'fundamental D3' then we allow our voice to relax into a certain/sort-of 'organized fry' [remember 'vocal fry']. In doing so, one of our vocal folds stays on the D3 while the other vibrates an A3, a 5th above. The result, or the resultant pitch, is a sub-harmonic pitch one octave below- a D2. This technique is not isolated to vocals. It is used by organists worldwide to produce zero octave pitches that aren't on their keyboard at all. Other instruments like tubas, trombones and trumpets can use this technique as well, called 'pedal tones'.

Also, pay special attention to example #5. It's a strange technique of producing sub-harmonics through ‘ingressive phonation’ (inhale singing (!)) which produces the lowest notes I’ve heard yet. I mean, wow!

Insane Bass! 7 Crazy Vocal Techniques for Singing Low (and Beatboxing)- David Lawson (9:37)

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The thought came to me that if one was to master the art of both exhale and inhale techniques, it could produce a continuous sub-harmonic cycle.

Also from David Larson is his video on singing eight notes at the same time. I don't know how effective this is but I could definitely hear at least three notes at once.

Singing 8 Notes at the Same Time by Myself! Polyphonic Bass Chord (3rd Vocal Subharmonic)- David Larson (10:04)

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I'm now going to go in a completely different direction with this overly long (26:19) video. The guy is trying to prove that the megalithic builders of the past had no problem moving massive stones around. The first part deals with vibrations. He made a very crude set-up using a speaker as a vibration table. In a little pan, he subjects a steel cylinder, a brass cylinder, an aluminum cylinder and a chunk of granite, all weighing 128g, to 120 Hz vibration. They all move around a little bit but they're difficult to push though the granite is easier. He then adds a little water and goes through the test again. The granite moves much easier whereas the metal cylinders are still difficult. Then he ran the test again at 70 Hz. The metal cylinders, again, moved with difficulty but the rock moved more freely. The second part of the video deals with an equally diy setup trying to show the electromagnetic properties of granite.

- YouTube

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Anyway, what caught my attention was the 70 Hz frequency effect on the granite chunk and I wondered if there might be a connection with sub-harmonics?

 

[BlueKiwi]

Thanks for the detailed research @Benjamin

A couple of things stand out to me, for whatever reason.

(Pierre) Which song or type of music is closest to the tones and sub-tones that have those healing properties?

A: Gregorian chant.

The Gregorian chant typically uses the diatonic scale, which consists of seven pitches (the notes of the major and natural minor scales)

They also employ different Modes, as outlined here Reference : gregorian modes

My music theory is limited, so please forgive me

Q: Alright: 'mathematics converts to sound in geometric measurements.' When we set up these figures...

A: Imagine an interlocking triangular mosaic in three dimensions.

So an interlocking triangular mosaic in 3D, as relating to musical notes would suggest 4 notes (for each vertex) and maybe 6 notes for each edge ?




Not sure where I'm going with this, but somehow I think some sort of circularity is important here, where the harmonics, sub-tones each should be reinforcing each other in a sort of recursive way...

 

[Benjamin]

The Gregorian chant typically uses the diatonic scale, which consists of seven pitches (the notes of the major and natural minor scales)

Don't forget that the Gregorian chant was just one example. There was a second example that was mentioned in July, 31, 2002:

A: There is a "spectrum" as Mouravieff suggests, however the Zulu compose a sort of "drone" tone.

Q: (S) So is this something they do deliberately or is it something unconscious?

A: It is a function of the 4th density energies they "represent."

Q: (A) Okay, so it is a drone tone. That is the main tone which is foundational to the harmonics. You build the music on this infrastructure, so to say. (L) There's the drone, there's the bass, there's the melody. (Brainwave) Listen to his voice, what does his voice sound like to you? I don't know...(Perceval) Yeah, there is a resonance. (Brainwave) Yeah, in his voice. (Perceval) They said a spectrum as in Mouravieff, the spectrum of the genetics able to carry light or to act as a light for transition. I'm not really sure on how that...(L) I think they're talking about a soul tone. (Brainwave) That singing that they do, that special kind of singing is it symbolic of that drone tone.

A: Indeed, as is all of reality symbolic of things at other levels and "depths" of being.

Q: (Brainwave) Okay, think of the Lion King and that singing and what it induces and when you hear that humming.

There's a lot more to this section but something I think of here is, what 4D energies are represented through Gregorian chants (or rather the people who sing them)? Is there some similarity between how Gregorian chants and Zulu songs are sung? Since 'drone tone' was mentioned for the Zulu singing, and if you remove the words from the Gregorian chants, could that be the similarity, at least musically?

So an interlocking triangular mosaic in 3D, as relating to musical notes would suggest 4 notes (for each vertex) and maybe 6 notes for each edge ?

Your diagram doesn't quite match the description. It's missing the word 'mosaic'. If I add it, I think of the Pyramids of Giza. A thought I have is, what music would be needed to make one block of a pyramid?

Etymonline has this for rill:

"small brook, rivulet," 1530s, from or related to Dutch and Frisian ril, Low German rille "groove, furrow, running stream," probably from Proto-Germanic *ril- (source also of Old English rið, riþe "brook, stream," which survives only in dialects), a diminutive form from PIE root *rei- "to run, flow."

The idea I get from this is communication, like a two-way radio. So I also wonder if the 'tonal rill' could be applied to Khufu's Pyramid as well.

 

[BlueKiwi]

Your diagram doesn't quite match the description. It's missing the word 'mosaic'.

I was kindof thinking they were referring to mosaic as the sub-harmonics and harmonics as sort of "supporting" and reinforcing frequencies