Train derailments and explosions and chemical spills

[Possibility of Being]

Also, don't you think the driver's reaction seems a bit bizarre even when taking into account a huge shock he must have been in?

The train had two drivers and one was in hospital, the Galicia government said. It was not immediately clear which driver was under investigation or in hospital. The train was operated by state-owned company Renfe. Newspaper accounts cited witnesses as saying one driver, Francisco Jose Garzon, who had helped rescue victims, shouted into a phone: "I've derailed! What do I do?". El Pais newspaper said one of the drivers told the railway station by radio after being trapped in his cabin that the train entered the bend at 190 kilometers per hour (120 mph), twice the permitted speed. "We're only human! We're only human!" he told the station, the newspaper said, citing sources close to the investigation. "I hope there are no dead, because this will fall on my conscience." Investigators were trying to urgently establish why the train was going so fast and why failsafe security devices to keep speed within permitted limits had not worked [source]

The report I read in Spanish said he was walking back and forth on the tracks repeating "I derailed, what am I going to do...."

Yeah, that's how I understood that from the beginning, guessing there was a translation error. But that's not the part that sticks out most to me. That's the "we are only human" part. When do you usually say such a thing? When you make a mistake, overlook something, or are too weak to do something you think you should do. This kind of situations. Not when you are allegedly driving a train full of people at double permitted speed because... because of what? Out of fantasy? Cavalier attitude? Doesn't make sense. Assuming that's what he actually said (which may not be true), the only scenario I can think of for such comments to be said is some sort of a blackmail situation. You're forced to derail the train and the pressure is so big, and the price you are going to pay for not doing so is so high, that you do it and hope for the best possible outcome...

I know that's a bit a side issue in the whole picture, so fwiw...

This odd detail needs to be explained. If the driver knew he was going too fast, and had time to contact his operator to inform them that he was about to derail, why was he unable to do anything to avoid the outcome he foresaw?

http://www.news.nom.co/spain-train-crash-driver-had-boasted-news/

Spain train crash: Driver: 'I'm at 190kmph and we're going to derail!'

The driver of the train that crashed in northern Spain, killing at least 78 people, made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

Remote control? Makes me thinking about this thread:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,31644.msg423330.html#msg423330

I think this article says it all

Researchers Show How a Car’s Electronics Can Be Taken Over Remotely

 

[loreta]

I read someplace, I will try to find the source, that employees of Renfe if they arrive later on the schedule are penalized with their salary, almost all their pay is taken off.

For any reason it seems that maybe the train itself was out of control. So maybe there was a big problem in the mechanics of the train that is a train of fast speed and it is normal that it was ruling at fast speed. But arriving near the station was supposed to go down and descend to 80 km.

 

[Joe]

This odd detail needs to be explained. If the driver knew he was going too fast, and had time to contact his operator to inform them that he was about to derail, why was he unable to do anything to avoid the outcome he foresaw?

http://www.news.nom.co/spain-train-crash-driver-had-boasted-news/

Spain train crash: Driver: 'I'm at 190kmph and we're going to derail!'

The driver of the train that crashed in northern Spain, killing at least 78 people, made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

http://news.sky.com/story/1120591/spain-train-crash-driver-to-be-questioned

According to reports, one of the drivers realised what was about to happen before the crash and made a desperate call to Renfe ahead of the bend, saying: "I'm going at 190kmh, I'm going to derail."

In a second call to Renfe after the accident, the driver explained that he was trapped in the train.

http://everydayworldwide.com/spanish-train-crash-driver-im-at-190kmph-and-were-going-to-derail/

The driver of the train that crashed in northern Spain, killing at least 78 people, made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

“I’m at 190 (kmph) and I’m going to derail!” the engine driver told the controllers of RENFE, the rail network.

Two men were at the controls of the train at the time, and it was not clear who had made the call.

Police sources told Spanish newspaper El Pais that, moments after the crash, the traumatised driver made another call to the operator.

That sounds to me like he was unable to control or slow down the speed of the train.

Exactly, it's highly unlikely that if he knew he was going too fast and in danger of derailing he would not have tried to slow down. It sounds plausible to me that someone deliberately sabotaged the train speed computer. A sickening thought for sure.

 

[Leonarda]

This odd detail needs to be explained. If the driver knew he was going too fast, and had time to contact his operator to inform them that he was about to derail, why was he unable to do anything to avoid the outcome he foresaw?

http://www.news.nom.co/spain-train-crash-driver-had-boasted-news/

Spain train crash: Driver: 'I'm at 190kmph and we're going to derail!'

The driver of the train that crashed in northern Spain, killing at least 78 people, made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

http://news.sky.com/story/1120591/spain-train-crash-driver-to-be-questioned

According to reports, one of the drivers realised what was about to happen before the crash and made a desperate call to Renfe ahead of the bend, saying: "I'm going at 190kmh, I'm going to derail."

In a second call to Renfe after the accident, the driver explained that he was trapped in the train.

http://everydayworldwide.com/spanish-train-crash-driver-im-at-190kmph-and-were-going-to-derail/

The driver of the train that crashed in northern Spain, killing at least 78 people, made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

“I’m at 190 (kmph) and I’m going to derail!” the engine driver told the controllers of RENFE, the rail network.

Two men were at the controls of the train at the time, and it was not clear who had made the call.

Police sources told Spanish newspaper El Pais that, moments after the crash, the traumatised driver made another call to the operator.

That sounds to me like he was unable to control or slow down the speed of the train.

Exactly, it's highly unlikely that if he knew he was going too fast and in danger of derailing he would not have tried to slow down. It sounds plausible to me that someone deliberately sabotaged the train speed computer. A sickening thought for sure.

Ok, so as far as I am reading in different engineer's forum It happened this way:

1. the train was in a highspeed railway at 190 km/h (the speed permitted here is 200 km/h)
2. at km nº80 , the train enters a conventional railway (here the speed limit is 80 km/h as he is only 4 km away of Santiago's train station- as you can see, he has very little time to slow down, he needs to be very focused)
3. the crash happened in km nº83-84 right after the curve.

So the question is what happened between km nº80 and 83-84 that the driver was aware of the speed but couldn't slow down? I think the mind control is a plausible thought! Specially knowing that he had been doing this at least 60 times in the last couple of years without any incident.

 

[Olesya]

This odd detail needs to be explained. If the driver knew he was going too fast, and had time to contact his operator to inform them that he was about to derail, why was he unable to do anything to avoid the outcome he foresaw?

http://www.news.nom.co/spain-train-crash-driver-had-boasted-news/

Spain train crash: Driver: 'I'm at 190kmph and we're going to derail!'

The driver of the train that crashed in northern Spain, killing at least 78 people, made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

http://news.sky.com/story/1120591/spain-train-crash-driver-to-be-questioned

According to reports, one of the drivers realised what was about to happen before the crash and made a desperate call to Renfe ahead of the bend, saying: "I'm going at 190kmh, I'm going to derail."

In a second call to Renfe after the accident, the driver explained that he was trapped in the train.

http://everydayworldwide.com/spanish-train-crash-driver-im-at-190kmph-and-were-going-to-derail/

The driver of the train that crashed in northern Spain, killing at least 78 people, made a panicked phone call moments before the crash saying that the train was going too fast.

“I’m at 190 (kmph) and I’m going to derail!” the engine driver told the controllers of RENFE, the rail network.

Two men were at the controls of the train at the time, and it was not clear who had made the call.

Police sources told Spanish newspaper El Pais that, moments after the crash, the traumatised driver made another call to the operator.

That sounds to me like he was unable to control or slow down the speed of the train.

Exactly, it's highly unlikely that if he knew he was going too fast and in danger of derailing he would not have tried to slow down. It sounds plausible to me that someone deliberately sabotaged the train speed computer. A sickening thought for sure.

Found a comment by jeal10 here: _http://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/Probe-of-deadly-derailment-focuses-on-train-speed-4685782.php

For those of you wondering, trains operating at these speeds are controlled by computers...humans are only there to take over when the computer "crashes". If the driver hit the overide and train was in manual control, it only means that person saw the danger and tried to save the train, just couldn't (and I stress couldn't) do it in time

All this talk about the driver, Francisco Jose Garzon Amo, apparently bragging on his Facebook page about going to fast in 2012 _http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/elmundo/conducia-exceso-de-velocidad-implicado-accidente-espana-articulo-435956, I find really suspicious. His page, btw, was closed shortly right after the accident. And look at photos of him here ( supposedly from his Facebook page) _http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/26/spain-train-crash-driver-bragged-about-hitting-speeds-of-200kmph-on-facebook-3899466/ and here ( also supposedly from his Facebook page, the one that was closed) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRzXZFCFN8M Two different people? To me, they don't look the same.

 

[Gawan]

Ok, so as far as I am reading in different engineer's forum It happened this way:

1. the train was in a highspeed railway at 190 km/h (the speed permitted here is 200 km/h)
2. at km nº80 , the train enters a conventional railway (here the speed limit is 80 km/h as he is only 4 km away of Santiago's train station- as you can see, he has very little time to slow down, he needs to be very focused)

What I read was, that this sudden speed change was criticized as the train line was built or finished. And I had the same thought that the control of the train may have been remotely disabled/changed and goes a bit in loretas question why the automatic (speed) system did fail.

 

[MK Scarlett]

Leonarda and Kniall you are absolutely right. I don't have tv but I know that the driver is pointed as the guilty man before anything else. On radio they were very morbid talking incessantly about the "cadavers". There is another problem with media in Spain and is that news reporters can not say anything that in against the government. If you criticize the system you will loose your job.

So Spain is a dictatorship like under Franco. Rajoy was due to give a conference about his relation with Barcenas, but now this subject is forgotten. How convenient.

This is a video that explains how it is impossible that the cause of the accident is the speed because the system has some "barriers" that are there to stop the train in case of an urgency, for example if the driver faint, or is sick or anything else. And they were 2 drivers in that train. The video is in Spanish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paWzTzFOLXM

I just can confirm this, because I worked as hostess on TGV (Called South-West in France, it was before the Bordeaux-Paris line be opened), for one year (and more as free traveller). This gave to me (as others) the opportunity to travel in the loco with the driver (several times), learning how all this stuff works and so on. I can add that IF the driver has a faintness for exemple, because his hands are not on the wheel anymore, the train stops! They are many process of safety on a TGV.
Hereafter a video explaining these safety systems (Video in French):
http://www.ina.fr/video/CAB85101360

It also seems that the train was not running so fast as media and politics claime, we can see it because of the cars above the train; The speed seems almost the same. Maybe a bit more for the train, but not a so big distance.
So, the question is: What really happened?

Edit: (added Video in French)

 

[Gary]

ETCS not operable on Santiago crash train
Written by Fernando Puente

"SPANISH transport minister Mr Rafael Catala has confirmed in a radio broadcast that excessive speed is believed to be a factor in the derailment of a Madrid – Ferrol service 4km south of Santiago de Compostela on July 24, which killed 78 people.


Police are waiting to question the hospitalised driver, who is under formal investigation, and the train event recorder has now been recovered from the wreckage for analysis.

The accident occurred in the transition section between ETCS Level 1, which is used on the 87km Ourense – Santiago high-speed line over which the train had travelled, and the standard Spanish Asfa system used on the conventional network. Santiago is one of dozens of ETCS-Afsa transition points on the Spanish network.

IRJ has learned from a senior source at Renfe that while ETCS is operable on the Ourense – Santiago high-speed line, class 730 sets of the type involved in the derailment operate exclusively on Asfa on this route despite the fact that they are equipped with ETCS. All other passenger trains operating on this line, including the fleet of class 121 Avant emus, operate on ETCS. The reasons for this have not yet been firmly established.

However, the final ETCS balise on the high-speed line, which is situated 4km from the crash site, would only inform the driver that he is exiting an ETCS section, that all automatic driving modes are disabled, and that manual driving mode is active. This means that if ETCS was in use the accident may still have occurred, and any train could in theory enter the 80km/h section at 200km/h. Drivers of Avant trains brake manually on the section where the accident occurred because the driver interface does not display a braking curve in the transition section between ETCS and Afsa.

The train passed Afsa distant signal E7 4km before the derailment, and E7 150m from the crash site.

Both Asfa and the more advanced Asfa Digital are automatic train protection (ATP) systems, but the latter provides the driver with information on braking curves while standard Asfa only triggers an emergency brake application if a signal has been passed at danger. It is unclear at this stage which version of Asfa is installed on the line.

The operation of both systems is linked to the interlockings but not to speed limits, which must be observed by the driver at all times.

This means that when a route is set on a main line with signals showing a green aspect, no command is triggered onboard the train to adjust the speed. The accident could only have been prevented by the Asfa signal before the curve where the derailment occurred if the following signal, positioned on the approach to Santiago station, was at danger.

The S-bend where the train derailed was intended only as a temporary link between the high-speed line and the conventional network and would have been eliminated by the extension of the high-speed line north towards A Coruña, although these plans have now been deferred.

A second driver was onboard the train, seated in coach 7. In Spain trains normally operate with only one driver in the cab except in the event of an Asfa failure."

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/etcs-not-operable-on-santiago-crash-train.html?channel=542

 

[Keit]

All this talk about the driver, Francisco Jose Garzon Amo, apparently bragging on his Facebook page about going to fast in 2012 _http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/elmundo/conducia-exceso-de-velocidad-implicado-accidente-espana-articulo-435956, I find really suspicious. His page, btw, was closed shortly right after the accident. And look at photos of him here ( supposedly from his Facebook page) _http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/26/spain-train-crash-driver-bragged-about-hitting-speeds-of-200kmph-on-facebook-3899466/ and here ( also supposedly from his Facebook page, the one that was closed) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRzXZFCFN8M Two different people? To me, they don't look the same.

Earlier today Russian news reported that the driver is to blame, and that it was due to his speed obsession. They also displayed the facebook image of the supposed speedometer on 200. Right now they report that the main theory is that the accident was due to recklessness, since he drove twice the allowed speed limit.

 

[Gawan]

Fwiw there was another incident near Paris yesterday, where a thunderstorm did cause a TGV and Eurostar to stop and 1000 passengers were trapped for about 2 hours. Passengers reported immense heat and some children and pregnant women were on board. Right now are no existing English news about it.

_http://www.leparisien.fr/oise-60/orages-un-tgv-et-un-eurostar-avec-1-000-passagers-bloques-dans-l-oise-26-07-2013-3010397.php

 

[loreta]

Here there is an article (in Spanish) that explains maybe why the system that was supposed to stop the train did not worked in that particular situation. The system of this train was ASFA, not a good system because obsolete and not so secure as the system ERTMS that is much more modern and is this system that the EU advise that each train of high speed should have. One congressman criticized, one month ago, that the train relying Madrid-Alicante have the system ASFA, the same of our train of Santiago. The system ASFA can minimize the speed when the train goes more than 200 km per hour.

For now the machinist is arrested and surely will be accused of 78 death for unintentional homicide.

http://noticias.lainformacion.com/espana/el-ave-a-alicante-tiene-el-mismo-sistema-de-control-del-accidente-de-santiago_Fp5LSatTocSAaeyjDNz7L/

 

[Keit]

Another accident with mass causalities, this time in Italy.
http://www.sott.net/article/264425-At-least-37-dead-after-coach-plunges-into-ravine-in-Southern-Italy

 

[Gawan]

Another accident with mass causalities, this time in Italy.
http://www.sott.net/article/264425-At-least-37-dead-after-coach-plunges-into-ravine-in-Southern-Italy

Yes, that was again pretty sad. So far 36 kids/pretty young people died plus the driver and several are severe wounded. As I heard they were pilgrims too or visited the birthplace of Pater Pio.

 

[Tigersoap]

Yeah that's terrible.

Each time I read or see these things happening I can't help to think about how life is fragile, how any minute everything can be wiped out just like that. It's sad to think how all those people had dreams, hopes and so on and now it's gone... those who are left behind have to deal with the loss & grief now.

I know it may be too much 3d thinking but that's how I see things and I don't find much comfort in trying to soothe myself with any kind of after life idea.

 

[Gary]

"Rome (CNN) -- A bus returning pilgrims from a weekend visit to a Catholic shrine went off a bridge in southern Italy on Sunday, leaving at least 38 dead -- including some children, officials said.

The death toll rose by two after one person who was hospitalized died, and the body of another victim was found under the bus, fire brigade commander Alessio Barbarulo said Monday.

Ten people survived, Barbarulo said.

The bus was traveling east of Naples in Avellino province, the Italian news agency ANSA reported.

More bodies could be found in the wreckage, Avellino police official Pasquale Picone said. Picone did not have an exact figure for the number of passengers on the bus, though reports indicate as many as 50 may have been on board.

The passengers had participated in a weekend pilgrimage to the Padre Pio shrine in Pietrelcina.


The bus was returning pilgrims from a weekend visit to a Catholic shrine when it went off a bridge in southern Italy on Sunday, July 28, killing dozens of passengers, including some children, officials said.



Picone said the bus struck 11 cars on the road before falling off the bridge, leading police to suspect the bus had brake problems. But the exact cause of the accident remains unknown.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/28/world/europe/italy-bus-crash


"Reports said it hit several cars and then plunged off the viaduct. There was no obvious cause of the crash, but Ansa reported unnamed sources saying police believed there may have been a problem with the coach's braking mechanism.

A reporter for Naples daily Il Mattino, Giuseppe Crimaldi, told Sky TG24 TV from the scene that some witnesses told him the bus had been going at a "normal" speed on the downhill stretch of the highway when it suddenly veered and started hitting cars. He said some witnesses thought they heard a noise as if the bus had blown a tyre.

Early reports said the passengers had spent the day in Puglia, an area near the Adriatic on the east coast famed for religious shrines. But on Monday, a state radio reporter at the scene said authorities told him the bus had been bringing the passengers home after an outing to a thermal spa area near Benevento, not far from Avellino.

Others at the scene said the passengers might have visited a town near Benevento that was the early home of Padre Pio, a late mystic monk highly popular among Catholics in Italy.

Passengers came from small towns near Naples, and relatives streamed to the crash site. Initial estimates said there were up to 49 people on board at the time of the accident.

A local prosecutor arrived at the crash scene to begin an investigation into the cause of the crash."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/29/italy-bus-crash-killed-avellino




Yet another European transport tragedy within 5 days. Both may have a connection to Catholic pilgrimages, with driver error due to excessive speed and/or faulty braking being touted predominately as the initial causes in both cases. Of course, the official investigations in both tragedies are ongoing.

Could be just a terrible coincidence or is there something more symbolic going on here?