Transformational sound

[Ryan]

Hey Ryan, sorry if i offended you. When i say 'we' i mean those of us forum members who are really kinda steeped in some new age spiritual or meditation group which we believe to be 'the one'.

Nah, you didn't offend me. I was just a little concerned because when the first thing you said was:

Where can one find an experienced teacher in in this form of meditation?

I thought that you might have become identified with the idea of the practise enough to want to start experimenting. We should always be mindful that there are "Cosmic Spammers" who will attempt to introduce such practises into the forum for the express purpose of seeing who they can snare.

Of course, if someone wishes to be manipulated then that is their free will, however we are against manipulation on this forum and do not wish to be a "meeting point" for manipulators and manipulatees. ;)

 

[wilecoyote]

I'm reading Laura's article on Cosmic COINTELPRO and COSMIC SPAM. Very interesting information. Thanks for the lead though.

It raises my awareness of the 'sweet' and 'fluffy' key words used in advertising new age groups, and 'space brothers'. The tactic used is a written form of hypnotism and NLP, used to block out one's critical thinking abilities.

I do admit i have been swayed before by many ads and marketing campaigns for 'spiritual' groups/organizations which utilize this form of word-hypnotism/ written Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It's just that seekers on the Path are more susceptible to various Cosmic con artists and 'wolves in sheeps clothing.'

On reading much of the QFS material, my spiritual naivity is 3/4 gone........i would say, i kinda toughened up mentally, if you catch my drift.

 

[kenlee]

There is often a kind of "mystical" allure to many of the meditation practices that originate in the far East. People often think that if it is foreign then it must be mystical. The weirder and the more exotic the meditative practice then the better it must be. But it must be remembered that these different methods of meditation originated in a different time and place among cultures different then we have now.

But today we now have Englishman trying to be Sufi's or whirling dervishes, or we have African witch doctors practicing their arts in the streets of Chicago, or we have Buddhist monks practicing their meditations on a hill in California, and so on. I think when we take different disciplines that have been geared to a specific time, place, and culture and then transpose them to a different time, place and culture then this just creates more conditioning.

It must not be forgotten that each culture has a certain "essence" and many of the meditation practices that originated in that particular culture was geared to separating and loosing the connections between the acquired personality (which are conditioned programs within in us which are derivatives of our specific culture) and our own essential nature that is also connected to the "cultural essence" of our own culture. So these different meditation practices, I think, are geared to that specific culture and it's associated "cultural essence."

Thus if you have a man who is born in Central America, with all the acquired cultural conditioning associated with that culture, who now becomes a Buddhist monk, then he is most likely just going to be re-conditioned from his Buddhist meditation practices since the Buddhist practices originated for a specific time, place and cultural setting. It may have worked in it's proper time period but when transposed to a different time period and culture it fails to work because the cultural essence is different.

Thus the end result of an Englishman becoming a Sufi or a Spaniard becoming a Zen Buddhist would just be more conditioning and the foreign meditation practices would, overall, fail to separate the real from the false in the man since it originated in a different culture. He meditates using the system and disciplines from a foriegn time and place and then puts on a suit and tie to go to work in his own culture. His efforts may give temporary results in separating his existential automatic flow of associations from his inner essense, allowing for experiences of more essential states of consciousness, but the end result of all these 'exotic' foreign meditation practices is just more aquired conditioning. Imo, no results could be permanent from all this.

 

[Excogitator]

Sorry if my post was taken as advertising. I was reading Laura's work and the C's comments rang true with my practice. I believe this is one of the truly open groups out there, so I contributed.

I am a very private person who rarely shares my private thoughts. I know that each of us is a great spirit, temporarily wearing physical garb and temporarily choosing to forget our real selves. As such, each of us is absolutely right in the attitudes and beliefs we now have, bacause we chose our path before coming here - so I will never criticise anyone or force my beliefs on anyone. Even if I think I have discovered a path to enlightenment, I know it's not the right path for all others - because the fun and learning are in the journey - as the C's constantly remind us.

Having said that, there may be some readers who benefit from the sound and light meditation as I have, so there it is :)

Cheers,
Gerry

BTW - Sound and Light meditation is no "walk in the park" - it's tough work, but rewarding.

 

[Ryan]

I can see how people can be critical of any paths, but those that work for them, where they have invested time and effort. I can see how people devoted to Gurdjieff, Mouravieff and the C's can consider those directions as the foundation upon which all their understanding is built.

I think being critical of spiritual paths is a healthy attitude as long as one is equally critical of the directions they can tend to take for granted. Otherwise, its easy to fall into doctrinist attitudes. The C's, in fact, encourage such a critical approach for everything and encourage us not to play favorites without testing, osit.

This is an important point EQ, and I'll take the opportunity to expand upon it. When I first came across the Cassiopaean material, I considered the C's little more than amusing "science fiction". It was only after reading more of Laura's historical articles, and being impressed with the keen insight, critical mind and passionate drive that she brought to her research, that I started to take the site more seriously. That, and the fact that she did not shy away from addressing the obvious (to me) problems of politics, government and conspiracy.

I discovered the site approximately six months after what might be called a "bankruptcy" period in my life, and despite the many other therapies and treatments I was occupying myself with to attempt to gain a measure of healing and understanding (hypnosis tapes, kinesiology, martial arts, dianetic "clearing", meditation, EFT etc - to say nothing of the stuff I was into before that!), Laura's work gave me the first sense of something Real, rather than a fleeting illusion or manufactured sense of self-calming. And this was not because she was providing a "formula" or "ritual" for enlightenment, but rather pointing through history at the many clues to a reasonably complete, internally consistent body of esoteric knowledge.

Thus, my first stop on the path of verifying Laura's work was to find out more about this Gurdjieff dude. I'm not going to say that I realised Gurdjieff was "the Truth", because the process of verification is ongoing - there is a LOT of literature about Gurdjieff. I found that to be an interesting thing in itself. However, the following quote (as recounted by Ouspensky in "In Search of the Miraculous") really struck a chord with me:

"At first it is very difficult to verify whether the work is right or wrong, whether the directions received are correct or incorrect. The theoretical part of the work may prove useful in this respect, because a man can judge more easily from this aspect of it. He knows what he knows and what he does not know. He knows what can be learned by ordinary means and what cannot. And if he learns something new, something that cannot be learned in the ordinary way from books and so on, this, to a certain extent, is a guarantee that the other, the practical side, may also be right. But this of course is far from being a full guarantee because here also mistakes are possible. All occult and spiritualistic societies and circles assert that they possess a new knowledge. And there are people who believe it.
"In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.

Now, regardless of whether Gurdjieff was legit or not, his statement about the theoretical part of the work proving useful for analysis is spot on. And it is in many New Age type teachings that I have observed the lack of such a "theoretical part" of the work. It's all about feeling and doing. One is expected to dive right in and start meditating/hypnosis/whatever - to "see for yourself" the results that can be obtained. This is the trap. Many of these techniques DO work - from the point of view of self-calming and releasing a storm of chemical bliss from the brain. Thus, the results are taken as "self-evident", and the student becomes susceptible to whatever the "Guru" wishes to introduce next.

Mouravieff did truthseekers a great service IMO because he took the system that Gurdjieff was teaching and "laid it out on the table". The theoretical underpinnings, detail of the methods and results that can be expected are all there. One seldom sees this with the New Age. Theory is minimal, methods are simple and the results are ill-defined beyond "happiness" and "life benefit" or suchlike.

The work of the QFG, Mouravieff and Gurdjieff will keep me busy learning and verifying for a long time. And the more I do it, the more value I see in continuing to learn and verify further. In contrast to such a rich, palette of knowledge, open to examination and experiment, the ill-defined, feel-good teachings of the many "Guru Whatshisface"'s out there are frankly, pathetic.

Is this a subjective point of view? Perhaps. I'll leave that up to the reader to decide.

Even then every path has truth in a certain percentage, and it's the spirit of that truth that matters more than the letter.

If "spirit" could be said to be analagous to "direction", then I agree.

I think that if any teaching or Path leads to a "block" or "obsession" at some point, it should be abandoned and the seeker must move on. I do not exclude the Work of Gurdjieff, Mouravieff or the QFG from this. It seems however (IMO) that the concept of the network/mirror as embodied by the QFG is unique among Paths, in respect that it is a method consciously intended to prevent such "blocks" developing. It is a living, evolving, creative "Work In Progress".

Anyway EQ, thanks for your perspective - it is appreciated.

 

[wilecoyote]

Many of these techniques DO work - from the point of view of self-calming and releasing a storm of chemical bliss from the brain. Thus, the results are taken as "self-evident", and the student becomes susceptible to whatever the "Guru" wishes to introduce next.

Now that my friend, again is spot on.......a direct hit. A meditation providing some form of chemical bliss, to the non-critical, open, non-discerning seeker, is taken as the ultimate meditation form; the one.
Ok, fine, it makes one feel good, and blissful, but has any real spritual work, (ie thinking with a hammer) taken place?.... No.

The body feels good, and since many people aren't developed 6th sense wise, they use their 5 senses as their validation for a particular technique. So, to them, a neurochemical 'high' is interpreted as enlightenment.

Being in this forum has made me ask myself some really critical and analytical questions, because, i was once a gullible seeker; i was always interested in meditation and spirituality and magick, so, to my fresh and naive mind, anything that was marketed properly or had good adverts would get me hooked. I think in terms of spirituality, my greatest obstacle has been to analytically see through new age and spiritual marketing propaganda. I do admit i'm the 'try first analyze later' type. I just want to figure out if the stuff works, u know. But that could be my greatest downfall. I know i need to be more careful in my spiritual ambitions, it's just that i have this massive drive to explore other dimensions, hence my interest in Hemi-sync's gateway experience, Robert Bruce's astral travel guide, etc.

So to each his own. Transformational sound meditation will work for some, but not for others, and the same goes for other techniques and practices.

 

[ark]

I just want to figure out if the stuff works, u know.

Of course it works. A hammer works, scissors work, and fire works. Each has a different action. So, it all depends on what you want to achieve. Do you want to be more objective or less objective? Do you want to DO more, or to DO less? A simple method works here: analyze who was using which methods and then mercilessly analyze what they have accomplished on this planet.

 

[wilecoyote]

Thanks very much for that Ark.
'By their fruit shall you know them' or something to that extent.
The brutal analysis method screens out almost 3/4 of the new age fluff.

Cheers

 

[ark]

Thanks very much for that Ark.
'By their fruit shall you know them' or something to that extent.
The brutal analysis method screens out almost 3/4 of the new age fluff.

Cheers

How did you get the number "3/4"? I am really curious.

I mean I would be not that curious if you have written "4/4". But, instead. you wrote "3/4". This makes me curious.

 

[wilecoyote]

I just wanted to put a numerical value to 'the majority' or 'most' of the new age stuff, because, the Ra material is new age and is credible....um, i just didn't want to say that everything out there does not stand up to the 'hammer' of critical analysis test. I say this because i haven't explored exhaustively.
But you know, i just might be in denial. Because i just listened to the most recent SOTT podcast with Laura, and she said something to the extent that there is a disinformation program out there for everyone, regardless of beliefs, interests focus etc.......

And my willingness to believe that there is still 'something' out there, is what can get me trapped. My dilemma is whether to become a blatant skeptic, or an open believer. But the 3rd option is to critically analyze the accomplishments of such groups before subscribing to their system/methods. This method is proving to be very 'ugly' with regards to organizations i've been involved with in the past. What i mean is that they have accomplished duping more people into a 'blissful' state of mind, and disconnectedness from the real world. These past groups only advocate, 'meditate, meditate' even if the world crumbles around you.

That in itself is useless and selfish. I know our situation is dire, and the the PTB are clamping down slowly but surely via the police state, constant monitoring and surveillance, but we should not just give up yet. The people who are aware of the manipulation and propaganda going on, have to keep their bubble of resistance and awareness strong, and not just turn within, where everything is nice and peaceful. There is no possibility of internal struggle resulting in crystalization, when all is blissful.

So, as i stated earlier, maybe all the present 'new age' material out there is tainted, and haven't accomplished anything with regards to the betterment of humanity, except for a few like the QFG, SOTT website, this forum, and Cassiopaea.org

 

[Guest]

EsoQuest wrote:
Even then every path has truth in a certain percentage, and it's the spirit of that truth that matters more than the letter.

If "spirit" could be said to be analagous to "direction", then I agree.

The problem is that any path to truth, since human beings began such quests, has been subject to disinformation and corruption. And most of the fundamental terminologies associated with truth (even the word "truth" itself, as well as words such as spirit, love, teaching, knowledge) have been so abused, corrupted and twisted that one has to be really careful to observe one's own responses when such words come into view.

What I mean by "spirit of the word" is the original vision or revelation upon which the word is based, which is analogous to the intended direction that inspired the word in the first place. Just like this forum, any true vision or revelation is a target by directions that feel threatened by it. Today, we are stuck with a legacy of corrupt terminologies and understandings, so more than ever, being careful and discriminating is important.

The concept of the network/mirror is not unique. I encountered it in the works of Sri Aurobindo, who collected a group of people under the guise of "discipleship" so they could be a mirror to him and each other of the forces that inhibit growth and realization. And that group was under constant attacks, until the founders died and the "ashram" turned into a commercial enterprise.

As for me, I once tried reading Ouspensky (Tertium Organum and the Fourth Way) and could not digest him. It just seemed to me he was not part of what he was trying to communicate, and so gave only part of the story. So I moved to other sources, where I discovered that at best I could find nuggets of truth.

Even though the idea most "teachers were pushing" was to follow one path and stick to it thick or thin, I felt that there was a vision in me that was shattered and by finding nuggets here and there that reminded me of it, I could piece it together. I felt that if there is a truth, then it cannot just be in one place, but scattered in varying degrees under a heap of corruption throughout the spectrum of "traditional teachings".

And I have been ruthless in this despite insinuations from people I knew that such an attitude was "disrespectful" to "great teachers". Who was I to discern? After I quit falling for that routine, I realized that I don't have to be anybody. Just keep moving to put the pieces together. And now that the picture is more coherent than it was, I realize it is not incompatible with directions such as Gurdjieff that I did not pursue.

My conclusion is that although it is important that we are all on the same page so to speak, I think it is also important to keep in mind that it is a very big page, and each of us views it from the angle of individuality. I think being on the same page and understanding the many views of that page are perspectives that need not be in conflict. That is what is good about the network/mirror dynamic. It provides the interweaving of many perspectives so the page itself can become clearer to all (provided that story-lines of falshood can be weeded out, of course).

The concept of network/mirror, like the ideas of ponerology, is a major threat to those that promote falshood. Because it is a threat, it means it is effective against these forces. And as you mentioned, it is effective because it directly targets the "blocks" of falshood themselves.

 

[Ryan]

The concept of the network/mirror is not unique. I encountered it in the works of Sri Aurobindo, who collected a group of people under the guise of "discipleship" so they could be a mirror to him and each other of the forces that inhibit growth and realization. And that group was under constant attacks, until the founders died and the "ashram" turned into a commercial enterprise.

I hadn't heard of him before, so I read through the entry regarding him on Wikipedia. Seems like an interesting person with quite a developed social conscience.

As for me, I once tried reading Ouspensky (Tertium Organum and the Fourth Way) and could not digest him. It just seemed to me he was not part of what he was trying to communicate, and so gave only part of the story.

I have heard similar opinions of Ouspensky from others and do see this aspect in his writing, but I never found it to be a real barrier. Perhaps this is where personality types enter the equation?

Even though the idea most "teachers were pushing" was to follow one path and stick to it thick or thin, I felt that there was a vision in me that was shattered and by finding nuggets here and there that reminded me of it, I could piece it together.

That is an interesting description. With myself, I had characterised it as an "inner compass" that I felt some unseen hand had given a huge "flick" at some point, and it firstly had to "spin down" and lose its momentum before it could begin to give a reading for "true north". The concept of the "magnetic center" resonated quite strongly with me when I first read about it.

My conclusion is that although it is important that we are all on the same page so to speak, I think it is also important to keep in mind that it is a very big page, and each of us views it from the angle of individuality. I think being on the same page and understanding the many views of that page are perspectives that need not be in conflict. That is what is good about the network/mirror dynamic. It provides the interweaving of many perspectives so the page itself can become clearer to all (provided that story-lines of falshood can be weeded out, of course).

Such story lines are what I was referring to regarding COINTELPRO "Gurus" and the "New Age". I do not mean to disparage legitimate teachings or teachers.

 

[salleles]

Seems like an interesting person with quite a developed social conscience.

I wasn't aware of Aurobindo either. What he says below definitively makes sense.

9-4-1923

Question :
Do you think that in Russia what they have attempted is real democracy ?

Sri Aurobindo :
In Europe they have always tried for democracy. Real democracy has always failed, and failed because it is against human nature. There are certain men who are bound to govern. One must be prepared to face facts. Even in the democracies those men manage to rule and one knows too well the villagers do not. Only, those people govern in their name, and it sometimes makes them more free and reckless.

In Russia - one does not know the exact situation - the attempt was for creating real rule of the people, i.e. of the village. You see in what it has ended ? It has established again an oligarchy of the Lenin-party. One may even ask : What has Russia created ? It has tried to destroy capital and thus tried to destroy and perhaps succeeded in destroying city life. It is trying mechanically to equalise men. But it is not a success.

The Western social life rests on interests and rights. It depends upon the vitalistic existence of men which is largely governed by his rational mind helped by scientific inventions. Reason gives man the rigid methods of classification and mental construction and theory to justify his interests and rights, and science gives him the required efficiency, force and power. Thus he is sure of his goal.

But one may say that, though organised and effective, European life is not organic. The view that it takes of man is a very imperfect view, and the ideal it sets before man an incomplete ideal. That is why you find there class-war and struggle for rights governed by the rational intellect. Europe-anal life is very powerful because it can put the whole force of its life at once in operation by a coordination of all its members.

In old times the ideal was different. They - the ancients - based their society on the structure of religion. I do not mean narrow religion but the highest law of our being. The whole social fabric was built up to fulfil that purpose. There was no talk in those days of individual liberty in the present sense of the term. But there was absolute communal liberty. Every community was completely free to develop its own religion, the law of its being. Even the selection of the line was a matter of free choice for the individual.

Evening talks with Sri Aurobindo

Also interesting to note is that, exactly 75 years after his birth on August 15 1872, India became independent.

 

[pstott]

IMHO, it is not that there are 'certain men who are bound to govern' so much as 'There are certain people with psycopathic tendencies that always want to control those around them - for various purposes, i.e. enjoying the sense of power, self aggrandizement, wealth, arrogance etc.'
In human society, ever since the biggest caveman in the tribe declared himself chief, there have been those who have striven to rule and dominate.
Until mankind learns of a way to prevent psychopaths from gaining power we are stuck in this rut.

I also think that there is much evidence that most 'religions' are tools used to control people more effectively than the use of force. It comes down to the use of fear of what might happen to you in the afterlife if you don't do as you are told in this life.

Phil