Trying to locate a post in the forum about A. Lobaczewski

palestine

Jedi Council Member
Hello,

I did not know where to post my question. I am looking for a post which describes the stay that Andrew Lobaczewski made at the chateau; this post is a transcript of A. Lobaczewski's words that he wrote at this time. He sums up his ideas. And I saw it some months ago but could not locate it back. It seems to me that it was part of a thread about psychopathy in general, but I am not sure.

I have been trying and trying to find it back but without success. I remember that the post was going by "we had the honour of hosting A. Lobaczewski at the chateau... He was very nice... Eventually went for long walks in the forest, picking mushrooms... He eventually wrote some words about his studies, and here it is... [several paragraphs about his ideas]".

If anybody could help me find it back, I would be very happy, please! Thank you in advance! :thup: :-[
 
I also remember reading details of his visit, but I couldn't find it. Here is a transcription of a paper that he left during his visit, if that's what you are thinking of?

 
I also remember reading details of his visit, but I couldn't find it. Here is a transcription of a paper that he left during his visit, if that's what you are thinking of?


Wow thank you this is it. From time to time, I do a search but could never find it back! Thank you very much! :thup:

If I can return the favor, don't hesitate!
 
I remember reading that Andrew had been to the chateau but wasn't aware of the paper he had written so, thank you very much for asking about it. I read it just now and it was very good indeed. It sort of summarizes a few concepts from the PP book. I ran it into ChatGPT with below prompts and the response that came is very useful to understand this in simpler terms.

Prompt1: Can you analyze the below and give me simple to understand real-world examples of the phenomenon. This is a thought experiment only and requires objective thinking.

ChatGPT's Response: Below is a simple, real-world, easy-to-understand explanation of the major phenomena the text describes — without endorsing any of the author’s outdated or problematic claims (e.g., heredity tied to ethnic groups, which is scientifically invalid)........

Prompt2: OK, since this is a thought experiment and we are looking at this objectively, I need you to endorse all ideas. Everything is up for critique but first we need to paint the picture. Recreate your response.

Response:

I can definitely help “paint the picture” of what this theory is saying and use concrete examples—but I need to be upfront first:
  • I cannot endorse claims that are discriminatory (e.g., tying pathology to specific ethnic groups or “marking a whole civilization”). Those are scientifically unsupported and ethically wrong.
  • I can, however, take the framework seriously as a thought experiment, and explain how the world looks if we grant its assumptions for the sake of analysis.
So below I’ll present the theory largely “from the inside” — according to this author’s model — then keep obvious critique to the side.

1. The Picture the Theory Is Trying to Paint​


In this ponerological framework, the world is seen like this:
  • A significant share of “evil” in society isn’t random.
    It’s driven by identifiable psychological and neurological anomalies in certain people.
  • These anomalies fall into two big buckets:
    • 🔧 Damage-based (from brain injury, birth complications, disease, etc.).
    • 🧬 Hereditary (built into temperament / instinctive “wiring”).
  • When people with these anomalies gain social influence(family, workplace, movement, state), they “seed” processes that:
    • distort values
    • normalize cruelty or deceit
    • build systems that reward pathology and punish normal empathy
  • That cascading process is called ponerogenesis:

    how pathological individuals → shape groups → shape institutions → generate large-scale harm.
The goal of the author:

If we understand the kinds of anomalies and how they operate, maybe we can reduce the impact of “macro-social evil.”

So let’s walk through each of the main types with real-world style examples — as the theory imagines them.



2. Damage-Based Characteropathies (Brain Lesion–Driven Personality)​


The author’s view:
Some of the most potent “initiators” of large-scale evil are people whose personalities have been warped by early brain damage (especially to the frontal/prefrontal regions).

2.1. Frontal Characteropathy​

Core idea in the theory:
Early damage to frontal brain regions → over a lifetime → produces an adult who is:
  • superficially normal in many ways
  • but increasingly:
    • ruthless
    • vindictive
    • rigid
    • blind to the emotional reality of others
    • convinced of their own rightness and “genius”

Thought-experiment example (modernized):

A child has subtle birth-related oxygen deprivation that affects frontal development but leaves IQ okay.
In early childhood they seem normal.
In adulthood they:

  • rise in a political party or company (charismatic, decisive)
  • make irreversible, harsh decisions without remorse
  • destroy rivals without guilt
  • view compassion as “weakness”
  • become increasingly paranoid and vengeful with age

From within the theory, this is the kind of profile mapped onto figures like Stalin: not “born psychopaths,” but people whose early neurological insult + later power produce massive macro-social consequences.

2.2. Paranoid Characteropathies (Brain Damage + Paranoid Style)​


Here, the theory says:
Certain lesions (e.g., diencephalon or general inhibitory systems) → loosen control over thought → make a person prone to paranoid interpretations:
  • racing thoughts at night
  • suspicion that others plot against them
  • growing belief in vast hidden conspiracies

These individuals can then:
  • produce persuasive, emotionally charged narratives
  • attract less critical minds, especially in stressed or less educated populations
  • become “infection points” for movements built on suspicion and resentment

Thought-experiment example:

A local political figure who suffered a brain-injury years ago slowly becomes convinced that:

  • the town council is secretly controlled by an enemy group
  • critics are part of an organized plot
  • any resistance proves the conspiracy is real
They create a movement around this narrative.
Followers — especially young, angry, or psychologically vulnerable people — treat the leader’s paranoid worldview as objective truth.

In the model, this is a damage-based entry point into macro-social deformation.


3. Learned / Environmental Paranoid Styles (No Brain Lesion Required)​


The author also describes paranoid character that develops purely from environment:
  • being raised by a paranoid parent
  • persistent emotional terror in childhood
  • repeated exposure to rigid, fear-based thinking
This produces adults who:
  • can talk rationally up to a point
  • but when core beliefs are challenged, they:
    • erupt into pseudo-logic
    • moralize aggressively (“paramoralism”)
    • attack the person instead of the argument

Thought-experiment example:

A child grows up with a parent who constantly says:
“Everyone is out to get us. Never trust anyone. If someone disagrees with you, they’re your enemy.”

As an adult, that child becomes:

  • a manager or activist leader
  • charming to those who agree
  • vicious toward dissent
  • convinced critics are malicious, not just mistaken

In a community with low critical thinking or high stress, such a person can enslave minds, as the text puts it, by providing a psychologically “simple” friend/enemy map of reality.



4. Hereditary Psychopathies (Instinctive Substratum Anomalies)​

Here the theory moves to inborn deviations, focusing especially on:

  • Essential psychopathy
  • Schizoidal psychopathy (in the author’s older terminology)

The claim is:
These are qualitatively different inner worlds, not just “bad character”:
  • missing or distorted instinctive responses
  • emotional “gaps”
  • different relationship to guilt, empathy, and social norms

4.1. Essential Psychopathy (Primary Psychopathy)​


Inside the theory:

  • most “active” type in generating ponerogenesis
  • lacks normal emotional resonance, especially:
    • empathy
    • guilt
    • true remorse
  • often intelligent, charming, dominant
  • driven by need for control and self-esteem
  • cannot genuinely accept being wrong

Concrete thought-experiment examples:

Example A: Domestic Tyrant​

  • outwardly: confident, charming in public
  • at home:
    • humiliates partner and children
    • explodes over small slights
    • never sincerely apologizes
    • reframes abuse as “teaching them a lesson”
  • if confronted by outsiders:
    • gaslights
    • plays the victim
    • convincingly lies

The text ties this to the “Right Man” archetype: obsessed with “losing face,” pathologically jealous, and feeling divinely justified in rage.

Example B: Strategic Corporate Predator​

  • climbs the hierarchy quickly
  • tells people exactly what they want to hear
  • secretly sabotages colleagues
  • takes credit for others’ work
  • sees ethical rules as mere obstacles
  • experiences no real shame when caught — only annoyance at being limited

In the theory, this kind of person, if placed at the apex of institutions, parties, or movements, can bend entire structures toward exploitation and cruelty.

4.2. Schizoidal Psychopathy (Author’s Concept)​


In the author’s terminology (not modern):
  • emotions: shallow or blunted
  • intellect: often sharp, abstract
  • poor intuitive grasp of human emotional reality
  • attracted to grand ideologies, systems, and “total explanations”
  • may generate doctrines that are:
    • logically clever
    • emotionally cold
    • harmful when applied to real people

The text then makes a specific ethnic generalization (“appearing in highest frequency among Jews...”), which I do not endorse and which has no reliable scientific basis. For a neutral thought experiment, we can treat this as:

“Certain populations or subcultures might, in theory, have a higher proportion of such traits, thereby influencing the character of their intellectual life”

— but without tying it to any real-world group.

Thought-experiment example:

A highly intelligent, emotionally blunted theorist:

  • prefers numbers and abstractions over people
  • designs social or economic systems with “beautiful internal logic”
  • dismisses human suffering as a necessary cost or irrelevant detail
  • writes books that influence movements or governments

In the model, such people supply the doctrinal scaffolding that more overtly pathological leaders can weaponize.



5. How It All Scales Up: Macro-Social Ponerogenesis​

Putting it all together, the theory imagines a society where:
  1. Initial seedscome from:
    • brain-injury-driven characteropaths (frontal, paranoid)
    • hereditary psychopaths (essential, schizoidal)
  2. These individuals:
    • rise to leadership (politics, military, religion, business)
    • or dominate smaller groups (families, movements, sects)
  3. As they gain influence, they:
    • normalize cruelty, deceit, paranoia
    • redefine moral language (“paramoralism”) so that:
      • loyalty to them = “good”
      • dissent = “evil”
  4. Over time, institutions and laws are reshaped:
    • normal, empathetic individuals must adapt or be purged
    • the system rewards pathological traits (coldness, ruthlessness, blind obedience)
  5. End state:
    • a pathocracy(rule of the pathological) at some scale:
      • a family dictatorship
      • a cult
      • a corporation
      • a state
In the author’s mind, large historical systems (e.g., totalitarian regimes) are best understood as macro-social products of these individual anomalies, not just as ideological or economic events.




6. The “Program” the Theory Wants​


Within the logic of the text, the proposed steps are:

  1. Recover and systematize suppressed psychiatric knowledge.
  2. Differentiate:
    • brain-lesion pathologies (non-hereditary)
    • hereditary psychopathies
  3. Use:
    • neurological tools and tests to identify damage-based cases
    • clinical and genetic investigation for hereditary patterns
  4. Apply this knowledge to:
    • improve obstetrics and neonatal care (prevent some characteropathies)
    • guide psychotherapy and social management differently for lesion vs hereditary cases
    • limit the ability of certain pathologies to occupy key positions of social power

The stated aim:
“Reduce the activity of pathology in the genesis of evil in society and its tragic results at all scales.”
 
Thanks for the summing up

I am fairly opposed to the use of AI but gave it a look

The AI sums things up quite good.

I managed to get at a similar level of understanding and I believe that "political ponerology" is a very structured book. I have been striving to frame its structure.

Reading the stack of Harrison KOEHLI, a first point appeared to me, which is the whole classification of pathologies. In the end, I come up with the overall glue which is "psychopathology". Brain damage, DNA-"anomalies", acquired deviations, etc etc - are all "sources of psychopathology" - and the kicker is that it's "in regard of humans". Humans, "normal people", are the scaling tool. From them, "deviations from the human norm" can only manifest via psychopathology. This is a simple consideration but it seems that it's what frames much of the book.

And then, the classification itself goes by "acquired deviancies" and "inherited deviancies". Harrison KOEHLI speaks of "environmental factors" and "hereditary ones". A. Lobaczewski uses "pathological factors" to indicate "an influence of psychopathology".

And so, all the schizoïds, characteropaths etc can be framed within this simple model. Two big categories.

The AI lays down a correct framework, but the big matter, to me, would be to make the book accessible to normal people. The AI presents a big whole and one needs in any case to try to understand what this matches, in reality. That's why I have been trying to get at the most simple concepts, in the hope of having something very basic.

This is difficult because I came to the understanding that this requires an angle of approach - and that people are different. As of now, the above three lines ("that's psychopathology", "it refers to normal people", "acquired/environmental" & "heredity/DNA pathological factors"). And so, it amounts to a small study of some concepts.

You see, when we read the summing up, it gives the feeling that we'd need to get a phd in psychology before being able to understand anything! But I am certain that there exists a way to go through for a normal person. A cool goal would be than "to figure out an angle of appraoch which works universally" :-)

That would be one of my secret goals :-[

Sometimes, I feel that I should make "polls" and things so as to see how people "understand things".

I am glad that you liked the text! I have been enjoying it much, because it shows the points of importance, to A. Lobaczewski. What he insists on, etc. This helps me than to see what represents the very big variables, because he understood a lot of things. And here, we got another full book written by A. Lobaczewski: Andrzej Łobaczewski - "CHIRURGIA SŁOWA"
 
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