Turkey shot down Russian bomber over Syria

[Mr.Cyan]

The latest from Pepe:

Syria: The break for the border

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/326536-turkey-isis-syria-erdogan/

.........

The current shadow play – which includes the deployment of US Special Forces to northern Syria – opens the possibility that Turks and Americans are about to launch a major offensive to expel Islamic State from the crucial Jarabulus crossroads. Erdogan’s pretext is well known: to block by any means the attempt by YPG Syrian Kurds to unite their three cantons in northern Syria. In this corridor, Erdogan wants to install a dodgy, hazy bunch of Turkmen – his proxies – mixed with unspecified Sunni “moderate rebels,” keeping all lines of communication (and smuggling) with Turkey open.

Syrian Kurds, on the other hand, want to get there first. With American air support. And with Russian air support. This is one of the few things Team Obama and the Kremlin do agree on in Syria – to the absolute despair of the Sultan. The inside word from Ankara is that Turkey would be ready for a ground push on Jarabulus but only under American cover. Quite absurd, considering Washington and Ankara hardly are looking for the same endgame.

............


So everything now hinges on the break for the border. Syrian Kurds have been loudly announcing something along the lines that “Real Kurds go to Jarabulus.” Jarabulus is, in a nutshell, Turkey’s last stand in Syria (the Russian Air Force has all but exterminated the Turkmen fight column in northern Latakia).

Imagine a Kurdish unification corridor – running from Afrin to the rest of Rojava. This means Turkey cut off from Syria; crucially, the end of the Jihadi Highway; the end of Turkish secret services offering lavish logistical support for Daesh, from Big Macs to holidays in Turkey; the end of the Syrian stolen oil Daesh Highway. Not to mention the YPG – allied with the PKK – controlling a semi-autonomous province with the status of a proto-state.

Make no mistake: the Sultan will go no holds barred to prevent it. ISIS was never an “existential threat” to Ankara. On the contrary; it was always a very useful indirect “ally.” Ankara will continue to plug the myth that the road to Daesh’s defeat goes through Assad regime change.

Russia exposed the bluff. Yet the lame duck Obama administration is still uncertain; should we use Erdogan even as he recklessly tries to pit NATO directly against Russia? Or should we dump him? The answer lies in who, and how, wins the break for the border.

 

[sitting]

The latest from Pepe:

ISIS was never an “existential threat” to Ankara.

I have always disliked this term, existential threat. It's used often by Zionists. Why not just major threats and minor threats. Or critical threats?

In truth, it's a propaganda term. A phrase to trick minds. Much like the phrase "clash of civilizations," and the so-called "arc of crisis."

Pure rubbish if you ask me. Particularly when you see who authored them. Scum like Huntington and Brzezinski. It's an example of how language can be so deceptive -- and dangerous.

FWIW.

 

[sitting]

The latest from Pepe:

ISIS was never an “existential threat” to Ankara.

Just to be clear, my remarks concerned only the term itself. And had nothing to do with Pepe.

FWIW.

 

[sToRmR1dR]

Russia says black box from warplane downed by Turkey unreadable

_http://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-crisis-russia-turkey-idUSKBN0U41PK20151221

Investigators in Moscow said on Monday they were unable to retrieve information from the damaged black box of a Russian warplane shot down by Turkey last month, data the Kremlin hoped would support its version of what happened.

Russia's Defence Ministry publicly opened the recorder last week, hoping its contents would confirm Moscow's assertions that the bomber did not stray into Turkish air space and was maliciously downed.

"Retrieving the information and a read out of flight data ... has proven to be impossible because of internal damage," said Sergei Bainetov, the Russian Air Force's deputy head of flight safety.

Bainetov said 13 of the flight recorder's 16 microchips had been destroyed and that those remaining were damaged.

The damage was so severe, he said, because of the sheer force with which the plane had hit the ground after being struck by an air-to-air missile, severing a cord that connected the black box and the jet's avionics.

The defense ministry would now turn to specialized scientific institutions in the hope that they could get something from the damaged chips, he said, saying it was an uncertain process that was likely to take "a lot of time."

The downing of the Russian SU-24 fighter-bomber by Turkish jets on Nov. 24 was the most serious confrontation between Moscow and a NATO member state in the last 50 years.

Russian President Vladimir Putin accused Turkey of "stabbing Russia in the back" and ordered a raft of retaliatory economic sanctions against Ankara.

Turkey says the warplane, part of Russia's Syria-based strike force, strayed into its airspace and ignored repeated warnings to leave. Russia says the plane did not leave Syria and posed no threat to Turkey.

 

[sToRmR1dR]

BREAKING NEWS:

Chinese FM: Russian Su-24 bomber downed during anti-ISIS op in Syria, it undermines intl efforts

_https://www.rt.com/news/326734-china-su24-downing-statement/

The downing of the Russian Su-24 bomber over Syria while carrying out anti-terrorist operations is a great loss to the international efforts in the fight against terrorism, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said.

“We have taken note that the downed Russian plane was fulfilling a mission… It was downed while destroying terrorist targets in Syrian territory," Hong Lei said.

Late last month, China said the downing of the Russian jet-fighter by Turkey needed to be “further clarified.”

"China is deeply concerned about this issue," Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hong Lei told a press briefing when asked to comment, according to Xinhua.

Hong Lei said: “China supports all international efforts on anti-terrorism," adding that Beijing wants more communication between those involved.

Last week, Moscow started analyzing the Su-24’s flight recorder. It was opened live in front of international experts and journalists during a press conference. The Russian military has invited experts from 14 nations to work on the black box, but only China and British experts have so far agreed to take part, Lieutenant General Sergey Dronov, deputy commander of the Russian Air and Space Forces, told the media on Friday.

On November 24, a Turkish F-16 downed a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M bomber, killing one pilot and seriously straining relations between Moscow and Ankara. Turkey refused to apologize, insisting the Russian warplane had violated its airspace and had been warned many times before the F-16 fired its air-to-air missile. The Russian military has repeatedly stated the aircraft was shot down over Syria and that the Turkish fighter jet attacked from behind.

 

[sToRmR1dR]

ISIL 'Steals Thousands of Blank Passports' to Flood Europe with Killer Jihadis

_http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13941001000450

The claims have been made in German Sunday newspaper Die Welt am Sonntag, who claim ISIL has acquired the blank passports in Syria, Iraq and Libya, Daily Star reported.

Security sources say the situation in Syria is so chaotic that it would be almost impossible to detect which documents were genuine or fake.

The "tens of thousands" of passports could be issued to would-be attackers to enter the EU, having been stolen in ISIL-controlled areas.

The devastating Friday the 13th attacks in Paris, which killed 130 people, were carried out by a group of terrorists, some of whom appear to have travelled from Syria to Europe.

Die Welt also claims that ISIL, also known as Daesh, has launched a money-spinning operation with the fake documents, selling them on the black market where they fetch up to £1,000 each.

Two unidentified Stade de France attackers have been traced to two fake Syrian passports used to enter Europe, with Greek authorities confirming that one man passed through the country in October this year.

Fabrice Leggeri, head of the EU border agency, said: “The large influx of people who are travelling to Europe unchecked represents a security risk."

He added that no one in chaotic Syria would be able to guarantee “that documents that look real were actually issued by an official authority”.

Asked about the report, the German interior ministry offered a similar assessment.

A spokesman for the German interior ministry said: “In light of the large number of entering migrants, it cannot be ruled out that among them are for example, criminals, war criminals, members of militant groups or terror organisations. or individuals with extremist views."

Tonight Belgian authorities have arrested yet another suspect in connection with the Paris attacks.

The UK has been on high alert ever since the Paris attacks, with Met cops told they must constantly advance towards a marauding gunman, even if they are being fired at, in the event of similar incidents in London.

 

[sToRmR1dR]

BREAKING NEWS:

Daesh rockets kill nine girls at Syrian schools

_http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/12/22/442768/Syria-Daesh-attack-rockets-school-girls

At least nine Syrian girls are killed, and 15 others injured after rockets fired by Daesh terrorists land at a school in the city of Deir ez-Zour.

 

[Cosmos]

Russia says black box from warplane downed by Turkey unreadable

_http://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-crisis-russia-turkey-idUSKBN0U41PK20151221

Investigators in Moscow said on Monday they were unable to retrieve information from the damaged black box of a Russian warplane shot down by Turkey last month, data the Kremlin hoped would support its version of what happened.

Russia's Defence Ministry publicly opened the recorder last week, hoping its contents would confirm Moscow's assertions that the bomber did not stray into Turkish air space and was maliciously downed.

"Retrieving the information and a read out of flight data ... has proven to be impossible because of internal damage," said Sergei Bainetov, the Russian Air Force's deputy head of flight safety.

Bainetov said 13 of the flight recorder's 16 microchips had been destroyed and that those remaining were damaged.

The damage was so severe, he said, because of the sheer force with which the plane had hit the ground after being struck by an air-to-air missile, severing a cord that connected the black box and the jet's avionics.

The defense ministry would now turn to specialized scientific institutions in the hope that they could get something from the damaged chips, he said, saying it was an uncertain process that was likely to take "a lot of time."

The downing of the Russian SU-24 fighter-bomber by Turkish jets on Nov. 24 was the most serious confrontation between Moscow and a NATO member state in the last 50 years.

Russian President Vladimir Putin accused Turkey of "stabbing Russia in the back" and ordered a raft of retaliatory economic sanctions against Ankara.

Turkey says the warplane, part of Russia's Syria-based strike force, strayed into its airspace and ignored repeated warnings to leave. Russia says the plane did not leave Syria and posed no threat to Turkey.

Quite interesting development...

So what can we make of that? Certainly one would think that this new development represents a perfect opportunity for the western media to scream "we knew it, the russian government was lying about the shot down of the jet from the get go, now they destroyed the evidence. How convenient!".

But nothing of that sort can be füund in the mainstream media yet, which is quite interesting as well.

So what are the possibilities?

- The russians made the opening of the flight box and the gathering of data a very public investigation + getting foreign investigators on board to monitor the process

- Russian government officials made it clear, before the data of the box was investigated, that they are pretty certain that the data will proof what they have said

- Now they say, to get the data is "impossible because of internal damage" but say in the same breath that "The defense ministry would now turn to specialized scientific institutions in the hope that they could get something from the damaged chips, he said, saying it was an uncertain process that was likely to take "a lot of time."

- Maybe they found data there, that proofs something else, like NATO/US/Israel involvement, and they do not want to lie about it to the public and decided to say instead that it is impossible to get the data right now, but maybe "a lot of time" later when experts have checked the damage chips.

- Maybe the west found a way to damage the data

- The fact that the mainstream media does not jump on it, suggest to me though, that maybe something else is happening

- Maybe the russians did say that on purpose, as some kind of bait for the western media?

I dunno, but it is certainly interesting...

 

[Mr.Cyan]

- The fact that the mainstream media does not jump on it, suggest to me though, that maybe something else is happening

- Maybe the russians did say that on purpose, as some kind of bait for the western media?

I dunno, but it is certainly interesting...

This news is definitely interesting; thought about it too, and maybe this was part of the deal when Putin met Kerry. The message being "you stay from Syria for now, and in return we can keep a lid on the black box data (that clearly implicates the Empire) " just speculating fwiw...

 

[Cosmos]

- The fact that the mainstream media does not jump on it, suggest to me though, that maybe something else is happening

- Maybe the russians did say that on purpose, as some kind of bait for the western media?

I dunno, but it is certainly interesting...

This news is definitely interesting; thought about it too, and maybe this was part of the deal when Putin met Kerry. The message being "you stay from Syria for now, and in return we can keep a lid on the black box data (that clearly implicates the Empire) " just speculating fwiw...

I didn't even think about that possibility. Could be as well...

 

[angelburst29]

Russia says black box from warplane downed by Turkey unreadable

_http://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-crisis-russia-turkey-idUSKBN0U41PK20151221

So what are the possibilities?

[...]

- Now they say, to get the data is "impossible because of internal damage" but say in the same breath that "The defense ministry would now turn to specialized scientific institutions in the hope that they could get something from the damaged chips, he said, saying it was an uncertain process that was likely to take "a lot of time."

Maybe they found data there, that proofs something else, like NATO/US/Israel involvement, and they do not want to lie about it to the public and decided to say instead that it is impossible to get the data right now, but maybe "a lot of time" later when experts have checked the damage chips.

The Russian black box is readable, cryptology expert says
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/2015/12/21/the-russian-black-box-is-readable-cryptology-expert-says

(Note: dailysabah is news from Istanbul )

Çetin Kaya Koç, a professor of cryptology from the University of California, Santa Barbara, dismissed recent Russian protestations that they could not retrieve information from the flight data recorder, known as the "black box", of the downed SU-24 jet while describing Russian technical expertise as world class.

Speaking to Daily Sabah, Koç said that the only excuse he deemed realistic was that Russians did not want to recover the data in the first place.

"If they bring the box to me, I'll be glad to retrieve all the relevant information," he said, adding that all he needs is the necessary equipment, which would be readily available for Russians.

I've seen the footage showing the black box with Putin, and from the way it looks, it is readable," Koç said, explaining that black boxes are very redundant and include many layers to protect them from breaking into pieces, damage or fire. "I will not believe that this black box cannot be read unless I see it with my own eyes," he said.

Professor Koç described the Russian stance on the black box as a 'scheme', something that was planned before. "They are trying to close the issue and they do not want to receive information from the black box," he said.

Russians claimed that they could not retrieve information from the box with the tools available for now. Koç dismissed this claim, and explained that Russians are pretty advanced in this field. "Russians prefer closed technologies, it is their way of working in general. Their technology is different but they do a pretty good job. I know that Russians can currently hack even remote-controlled missiles," he said.

 

[goyacobol]

Military to Military

Seymour M. Hersh on US intelligence sharing in the Syrian war
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

6831 words - Worth the read.

In this article mentioned by angelburst29 (in the Putin thread) the author says that Russia did have "incursions" Turkish airspace before the downed Russian bomber incident.

Russian incursions into Turkish airspace began soon after Putin authorised the bombings, and the Russian air force deployed electronic jamming systems that interfered with Turkish radar. The message being sent to the Turkish air force, the JCS adviser said, was: ‘We’re going to fly our fighter planes where we want and when we want and jam your radar. Do not fuck with us. Putin was letting the Turks know what they were up against.’ Russia’s aggression led to Turkish complaints and Russian denials, along with more aggressive border patrolling by the Turkish air force. There were no significant incidents until 24 November, when two Turkish F-16 fighters, apparently acting under more aggressive rules of engagement, shot down a Russian Su-24M jet that had crossed into Turkish airspace for no more than 17 seconds. In the days after the fighter was shot down, Obama expressed support for Erdoğan, and after they met in private on 1 December he told a press conference that his administration remained ‘very much committed to Turkey’s security and its sovereignty’. He said that as long as Russia remained allied with Assad, ‘a lot of Russian resources are still going to be targeted at opposition groups … that we support … So I don’t think we should be under any illusions that somehow Russia starts hitting only Isil targets. That’s not happening now. It was never happening. It’s not going to be happening in the next several weeks.’

I don't know if that is true or not. It could have a bearing on the black box I think. FWIW

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Military to Military

Seymour M. Hersh on US intelligence sharing in the Syrian war
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

6831 words - Worth the read.

In this article mentioned by angelburst29 (in the Putin thread) the author says that Russia did have "incursions" Turkish airspace before the downed Russian bomber incident.

Russian incursions into Turkish airspace began soon after Putin authorised the bombings, and the Russian air force deployed electronic jamming systems that interfered with Turkish radar. The message being sent to the Turkish air force, the JCS adviser said, was: ‘We’re going to fly our fighter planes where we want and when we want and jam your radar. Do not -flick- with us. Putin was letting the Turks know what they were up against.’ Russia’s aggression led to Turkish complaints and Russian denials, along with more aggressive border patrolling by the Turkish air force. There were no significant incidents until 24 November, when two Turkish F-16 fighters, apparently acting under more aggressive rules of engagement, shot down a Russian Su-24M jet that had crossed into Turkish airspace for no more than 17 seconds. In the days after the fighter was shot down, Obama expressed support for Erdoğan, and after they met in private on 1 December he told a press conference that his administration remained ‘very much committed to Turkey’s security and its sovereignty’. He said that as long as Russia remained allied with Assad, ‘a lot of Russian resources are still going to be targeted at opposition groups … that we support … So I don’t think we should be under any illusions that somehow Russia starts hitting only Isil targets. That’s not happening now. It was never happening. It’s not going to be happening in the next several weeks.’

I don't know if that is true or not. It could have a bearing on the black box I think. FWIW

Yes, a couple of these made the news at the time. The U.S./NATO freaked out, calling them gross violations of Turkish sovereignty. Turkey said they talked it over with Russia, Russia apologized, and it was no big deal. Later, he MOD said that one of the incursions was because the jet had been targeted by an anti-aircraft system and was taking evasive maneuvers (which took it into Turkey).

http://www.sott.net/article/303351-Did-Russia-violate-Turkish-airspace-Or-did-Turkey-just-move-its-border
http://www.sott.net/article/303371-Russian-admits-Turkey-airspace-violation-mistake-Ankara-says-no-tension-NATO-sour-grapes

But I'm not sure about Hersh's whole "Turkish complaints and Russian denials" in relation to a concerted campaign to essentially troll Turkey's airspace. The impression in the news was that these were relatively isolated events. Who knows, though!

 

[sToRmR1dR]

Captured Daesh Fighter Reveals Details of Turkey’s Ties With Terror Group

_http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151222/1032169144/daesh-group-member-captured-reveals-information.html

Mahmut Ghazi Tatar a captured member of the Daesh terrorist organization, spoke to Sputnik Turkey, revealing details about being in the ranks of Daesh and Turkey’s ties with the terror group.

A Sputnik Türkiye correspondent managed to record an interview with a member of Daesh (Islamic State) who was captured by Kurdish troops in Syria. The 24-year-old Mahmut Ghazi Tatar who joined Daesh from the Turkish city of Adıyaman.

Mahmut Ghazi joined Daesh after being influenced by a friend who had joined the group earlier. He, together with 27 other Turks, was helped to cross the border into Syria where he joined the ranks of the militants.

“After crossing border we were moved to a training camp 5 km from the border. We received military training and attended religious classes. Before the start of training, each of us was asked whether we want to be martyrs. I refused. This question is asked of all new recruits. Those who agree, within 6 months receive special religious training. Since I refused, my education and training lasted 70 days. We learned by the Turkish books. During the training, a few people from Turkey came to check on us. They did not have beards and they were not members of Daesh,” Mahmut Tatar told Sputnik Turkiye during an interview.

After receiving their training the 27 members who were all Turkish were sent to the city of Tel Abaid where they lived in houses and where their training continued. Their names were kept secret and they were not allowed to contact their families for a period of six months.
Talking about how he was caught by Kurdish soldiers, Ghazi said that upon receiving warning of the presence of Kurdish soldiers from other Daesh members he and 12 other group members ran away from Tal Abaid. They were hiding in a nearby village. But the next morning when Ghazi tried to make a run for it he was caught.

“Kurds treat prisoners well, they feed them, give water and even cigarettes. I was kept in this room along with several other people. I did not think that they will treat me so well, I was afraid of torture. I thought we would be killed, but it turned out that the Kurdish troops do not kill captives. I heard that Daesh when being captured by Kurds are either killed at once or are kept alive to make prisoner exchange with the Kurds.”

Talking about what he heard from his commander the captured member revealed that during his training camp in May 2015, one Daesh commander Abu Talha told them that the group sells oil to Turkey. According to Abu Talha, the money that was raised from sale of oil in Turkey helped Daesh resolve all financial difficulties.

“The oil tankers that were sent every day to Turkey had crude oil, fuel oil and gasoline. The main source of income for Daesh is oil trade and oil inventories will last them a long time.”

“Abu Talha also said that the group earns a lot of money in trade with Turkey. He also said that the oil is sold through the mediation of a number of businessmen and merchants, but did not give names. Daesh also receives many products from Turkey and other Arab countries,” Mahmut Ghazi revealed.

He mentioned that his commanders did not attach particular importance to the US bombings. They believed that it was done as a pretense.

One of the militants asked the commander why Daesh was not fighting against Israel. Abu Talha said: “First we need to break down a small wall and then destroy the large one.”

According to the captured member most new recruits joined the group from Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Yemen, Qatar, Lebanon and Egypt. They crossed the Turkish border, which is very simple to do. The fighters from Europe and America follow the same route.

“The commanders told us that they were going to commit a terrorist act that would exceed the scale of the September 11 attacks on the US,” Mahmut Ghazi concluded.

 

[angelburst29]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

I'm wondering if the Turks are lying about the jet's flight path, or if they are claiming their 'borders' encompass land that is actually Syria. Can someone overlay the two images in this article to see (i.e. the Turkish-provided map and the Russian one shown in the YT vid)?

http://fortruss.blogspot.fr/2015/11/who-violated-whos-airspace-you-decide.html

The coastlines look different in each one, so they may not be using the same mapping methods, but maybe something can be gleaned.

Russia “Violated” Turkish Airspace Because Turkey “Moved” Its Border
http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-violated-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border/5480430

(This article originally published on October 7, 2015 is of utmost relevance in understanding the action taken by Turkey to down a Russian jet fighter over Syria airspace. (GR. Editor. M. Ch.)

One Russian plane may even indeed have slightly crossed the border [in October] while maneuvering. But the real reason why the U.S. military official and Turkey claim the above “violations” is because Turkey unilaterally “moved” the Turkish-Syrian border five miles south:

Turkey has maintained a buffer zone five miles inside Syria since June 2012, when a Syrian air defense missile shot down a Turkish fighter plane that had strayed into Syrian airspace. Under revised rules of engagement put in effect then, the Turkish air force would evaluate any target coming within five miles of the Turkish border as an enemy and act accordingly.

I think, Hersh does a good general analysis, for the most part and has stated some interesting information "of behind the scenes" negotiating of different Military operatives but he may not be aware of Turkey's actions in creating an additional five mile "buffer zone" into Syria for it's own agenda. Turkey/U.S./NATO are the one's harping for a Safety Zone to keep their supply routes open in Syria. Elicit oil wasn't their only game in Syria. Erdogan has turned Turkey into a cesspool with the help of NATO, U.S. and Israel. They use Incirlik Air Base as a multiple playground for transferring weapons, supplies and drugs. Israel uses Turkey's airspace to bomb Syria and Iraq. President Putin has consistently provided valid Documentation, in both the Plane incident and the stealing of elicit oil and their transit roots. I would imagine, he has a "vault" full of damaging data that would sink, not only Erdogan but the U.S., NATO and Israel?

Quote: Turkey remains a significant transit country for illicit drug trafficking. Heroin, opium, and cocaine are generally trafficked through Turkey to European markets, and methamphetamine and amphetamine-type stimulants (ATS) are trafficked to markets in the Middle East and Southeast Asia. Large amounts of opiates and hashish continue to be seized in Turkey.
_http://www.state.gov/j/inl/rls/nrcrpt/2014/vol1/223081.htm

This was reported last October but the reports are numerous:
Turkish men due in court over £500million North Sea cocaine boat
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen/735567/turkish-men-due-court-500million-north-sea-cocaine-boat/

It is alleged that cocaine with a street value of approximately £500 million was found on board the vessel.