Turkeys are our friends

[Laura]

Is there any way of feeding withough causing suffering to another being ? Well the only thing I can think of is the breastfeeding of babies (humans and animals).

Except that the mother must eat to produce the milk... does that "corrupt" the infant?

Does it make a difference whether the thing your consuming is more aware of what's happening to it on a physical level versus a spiritual/energetic level?

I don't know the answer. All of these questions are troubling when you get right down to it. They also are questions that posit a certain anthropocentricity to reality. Probably better questions would be: how does the Universe view the matter?

Who is the pot to say to the potter "why have you made me thus?"

I'm not particularly happy with the way things are, but it is as it is. I only see that we must utilize what is at hand to bootstrap ourselves out of a reality that is so repugnant on so many levels. And, at the same time, we cannot forget that the reality is as it is because that is what the Universe does, and to assume that the Universe doesn't know what it is doing is hubris.

Can we look at all the faces of God without flinching?

 

[StarFraction]

Laura wrote:

"Can we look at all the faces of God without flinching?"

Very, very difficult.

At least I have always found it to be so.

And do not many teachings warn us against too prematurely calling up a vision of God as he/she/it truly is? The warning being that we will be destroyed by such a vision (psychologically shattered?) if we are not well prepared for it.

Our world is, undeniably, an ongoing carnage at all levels. 'Nature red in tooth and claw.'

Gurdjieff - who was never shy about shocking people about themselves - actually seemed to me to be quite gentle when he taught of this matter. He called it 'reciprocal maintenance', or 'the exchange of energies', or, a bit stronger and more graphically, 'everything survives by eating everything else.'

I would call our situation - in all honesty - a 'bloody nightmare!' Or maybe just stand numbed before it, silently mouthing the words of Joseph Conrad: 'The horror ... the horror ....'

But, peeling away the protective coverings overlaying our perception of reality is crucial to our waking up to where we are, and the predicament we are in.

For we too are food.

We have to 'surface' and become aware of the manipulations of 'the wizard' who has hypnotised us all - in face of the facts - to perceive ourselves not as sheep or cattle for the slaughter, but as 'eagles' and 'lions' with a wonderful and already assured destiny.

So where do the often passionate arguments for vegetarianism/veganism as opposed to carnivorism (or, more correctly, omnivorism) fit in here?

Basically it is quite simple.

As consciously as possible do what you perceive to be necessary for yourself at the time. And treat all things/beings with respect. Vague guidance I know ... but now the time has come to throw away the rule books. We have to rely on our own conscience and what we perceive to be right - in an attitude of sincerity - for ourselves and others.

In other words, it all comes back to waking up to our situation. 'The terror of the situation.' And the struggle to come awake - as from those dreams in which you feel paralysed and have to make a real effort to move and come back to wakefulness - the struggle to awake ... is paramount.

I felt the need to 'go vegetarian' myself at one stage. So I did. I felt it was the right thing to do at the time, but my normally robust physique weakened, and I became endlessly tired, falling asleep at midday or mid-afternoon. (Being self-employed and working from home this wasn't a problem ... apart from the fact that I wasn't putting out the work as usual and therefore not earning my 'daily bread' as I had previously done!)

When I returned to my full enjoyment of rump steaks, roast chicken, grilled salmon etc., my strength returned and my tiredness evaporated. So what was I to do here?

Anyway, I made my choice. For better or for worse.

And then there are the vegetables and plants themselves!!!

From 'The Secret Life of Plants' - Peter Tomkins, Christopher Bird:

"Short of Aphrodite, there is nothing lovelier on this planet than a flower, nor more essential than a plant. The true of human life is the greensward covering mother earth. Without plants we would neither breathe nor eat. On the undersurface of every leaf a million movable lips are engaged in devouring carbon dioxide and expelling oxygen. All together, 25 million square miles of leaf surface are daily engaged in this miracle of photosynthesis, producing oxygen and food for man and beast."

"Of the 375 billion tons of food we consume each year the bulk comes from plants, which synthesize it out of air and soil with the help of sunlight. The remainder comes from animal products, which in turn are derived from plants. All the food, drink, intoxicants, drugs and medicines that keep man alive and, if properly used, radiantly healthy are ours through the sweetness of photosynthesis. Sugar produces all our starches, fats, oils, waxes, cellulose. From crib to coffin, man relies on cellulose as the basis for his shelter, clothing, fuel, fibres, basketry, cordage, musical instruments, and the paper on which he scribbles his philosophy. The abundance of plants profitably used by man is indicated by nearly six hundred pages in Uphof's _Dictionary of Economic Plants_. Agriculture-as the economists agree-is the basis for a nation's wealth."

"At the beginning of the twentieth century a gifted Viennese biologist with the Gallic name of Raoul France put forth the idea, shocking to contemporary natural philosophers, that plants move their bodies as freely, easily, and gracefully as the most skilled animal or human, and that the only reason we don't appreciate the fact is that plants do so at a much slower pace than humans."

"Plants seem to know which ants will steal their nectar, closing when these ants are about, opening only when there is enough dew on their stems to keep the ants from climbing. The more sophisticated acacia actually enlists the protective services of certain ants which it rewards with nectar in return for the ants' protection against other insects and herbivorous mammals."

Hmmm.

And we are to think that to exclusively eat these beautiful 'creatures' is somehow more worthy than eating the animals who can only exist - like us - because of them?

"The real study of man is man" - Alexander Pope.

Regards,
StarFraction

"One should never carry moderation to extremes." - Oscar Wilde

 

[Nathan]

We have to 'surface' and become aware of the manipulations of 'the wizard' who has hypnotised us all - in face of the facts - to perceive ourselves not as sheep or cattle for the slaughter, but as 'eagles' and 'lions' with a wonderful and already assured destiny.

OK, I hardly think we have a "wonderful and already assured destiny". Far from it. To perceive ourselves as such would be deluding ourselves and far from increasing awareness. Actually, to perceive ourselves as sheep is probably closer to the truth, because that is what we are at the present. The only difference being that the sheep in this forum are more aware. But the fact is, we're stuck in the same paddock as everyone else.

Frankly, I would prefer not to have to eat at all. Now and again, I do enjoy what I am eating, but most of the time, no.

This has been my experience also, increasingly in the last few years. I have to force myself to eat to maintain energy levels, despite my complete loss of appetite. I imagine this is the experience of many on this forum. I guess it is something we have to tolerate, among other more horrendous things, while existing in third density.

 

[Keit]

I would call our situation - in all honesty - a 'bloody nightmare!' Or maybe just stand numbed before it, silently mouthing the words of Joseph Conrad: 'The horror ... the horror ....'

This is what I perceive when I try to think about the whole issue.
Personally, I have no problem with eating, and I very much enjoy eating tasty and well-prepared food, especially juicy entrecote steak. I don't hold it as a horrendous experience and see it as an unavoidable reality, but I do believe that things should be different.

It's seems that the whole "meat" issue is loaded with denial and some sort of hypocrisy. Most of the humans find the idea of eating cats or dogs as something close to abomination because we hold them as pets (or the example of feeling pity for a pet sheep). Some cultures don't have such "problems". Lot of people who eat meat with pleasure say that they don't want to go to the butcher house, because after such visit they will lose an appetite for meat or will feel constant guilt. So there is this denial, we prefer not to know, not to see in order to continue enjoying our next meal - horror indeed. Does it mean that we all should be pure vegetarians and the world will be better? I don't think so.
The same veggies that feel so much for animal kingdom will have no problem to avoid other kinds of "feeding" -psychological and physical abuse, starvation, etc. They will execute the same denial toward those other problems in order to continue to live in their illusion that by avoiding meat they made this world somehow better. And maybe they just made themselves feel better about themselves, because they feel that it's so damn difficult to face the horror without trying to change it.

 

[Nathan]

How did you lose your appetite in the first place?

Good question, I don't remember precisely, but I do remember in 2001 starting to lose interest in eating, which I initially blamed on depression (which comes and goes for me), then later blamed on not cooking interesting enough meals for myself. Eventually, I realised that I was just simply losing interest in it. It became about as interesting as doing the laundry. Before writing this post, I had to almost force feed myself, but I'm so used to that now it hardly bothers me. And yes, it is annoying to lose one's appetite in Melbourne ;)

Whether it is linked to my "awakening", is hard to say. It could be for another reason entirely. Has anyone else had similiar loss of interest in appetite? Or other things related to physicality?

 

[Z...]

Thanks for the insight Laura and Henry. I was just wondering if it would be morally the same to eat humans (not that I'd want to), animals, plants, etc. Would it matter in terms of developing ones being which one you ate/ate the most of? Does it make a difference whether the thing your consuming is more aware of what's happening to it on a physical level versus a spiritual/energetic level? I'm sure plants can feel things too but wouldn't it be more agonizing for a being to be cut with a knife where it severs their nerves which transmitts the sensation of pain to their brain rather than cutting a piece of broccoli which would not experience it in the same manner (I'm assuming it would not, but I don't know how it feels to be a broccoli on a physical level)? I guess killing a living being to consume is cutting the life force from the physical body either way, but does it matter if they experience it the same?

You have touched on an interesting subject here.
When first presented with the idea that 3D STO beings actually walked the earth as hunther -gatherer type I was slightly dissapointed, but then I got rid of wrong conceptions and it started making sense.

Imagine the culture which is in unison with nature and all its cycles including the cycle of life and death. It is only our culture where death is concieved as something horrendous.
It is indicated that people before fall were communing with gods therefore I dont see a reason why they couldnt have comunicate with other forms of life such as animals.

In such scenario its very easy to imagine the situation where animals are apeased with appropriate thoughts by hunters and then they agre to sacrifice their life
for the continuation of the life of others. Certan tribes still have shamanic rituals preeceding the hunt which are aimed at totemic soul of certain animal species. The hunt is always done according to the rules of fair game - therefore the weakest or the sick have to go first. Whether hunted or not, whether caught or not the animal is always treated it with greatest reverence and veneration. The only way appropriate to treat soemone who gives you life, so they take particular care to comfort the animal and releive it from anxiety, even before eating its flesh they become one with animal and the animal sort of speaking dies happy for greater good.

What a contrast to concentration camps in which we keep our animals today.

As for the person that started this thread I usually use argument that renders defensles any vegetarian.
Human being is omnivourous being, the length and the structure of digestive organs is particularly different in carnivors, herbivores and omnivores.
In spite of all wsihfull thinking and purple baloons of positive enregy we are omnivores and thats a scientific fact.

I remember reading somewhere years ago that the domestic pig is a "created" critter - a hybrid engineered with human genes in there somehow. Might have been Cayce or someone like him who said this, so of course it is without any evidence. If, however, that is even remotely true, and it is also true that pork is not good for anyone, then that suggests that cannibalism is not a very smart choice just from the point of view of health.

All domestic animals are created critters.
It happens that I know abit about history of domestic animals. Pigs were developed from so called proto- pigs. These "primitive" types of pigs are much more closely related to wild boar then to modern pigs and they are stil in existance. You can still find them in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. They are even nowadays used to introduce fresh blood in weeakend pure breeds when need arises.
Striking resemblance to humans and also great intelligence has always been causing people to come up with wierd theories.
I am aware that we live in strange world and I wouldnt totally dismiss the possibilitiy
that domestig pigs are product of genetic ingeneering including some human genes. After all there are indications we are the same.
But at this point we can only speculate.

What I always found curious was Yahveh's ban on consumption of certain flesh. I think it was Laura in TSHOTW who explaind this with hemoglobin and better digestibilty for "yahveh".
I dont see scientific reason why shouldnt we eat pork in moderation. Actually of all meats the pork keeps us full the longest. The arguments about higher content of fat dont hold because I said in moderation and we do need animal fat.

And lastly canibalism.
I think its all the matter of perspective and it is all irelevant in cosmic sense. Its just organic matter anyways - the spirit is what gives it life - that is when person dies, but while it lives body should be its temple and shouldnt be compromised in any way.

Just to highlight this difference in perspective did you know that
one of the bigest delicacies in Greece is fried placenta of the newborn baby, after the birth all memebrs of the family eat the placenta prepared in special way and thus recive life force. Mother is entitled to biggest portion whic only makes sense as she need to replenish the energy she lost during the delivery.
I have read about this many times but maybe our member Irini should confirm if this is true or not.

Actually, to perceive ourselves as sheep is probably closer to the truth, because that is what we are at the present. The only difference being that the sheep in this forum are more aware. But the fact is, we're stuck in the same paddock as everyone else.

spot on nathan

Frankly, I would prefer not to have to eat at all. Now and again, I do enjoy what I am eating, but most of the time, no.

This has been my experience also, increasingly in the last few years. I have to force myself to eat to maintain energy levels, despite my complete loss of appetite. I imagine this is the experience of many on this forum. I guess it is something we have to tolerate, among other more horrendous things, while existing in third density.

I can report the same, at first I was worried but now I cant care less

 

[dhess31]

I think one of the problems we have with situations like this is that, just like trying to analyze free will in every situation, we don't really have the perceptions we need to be able to discern what is really going on.

Foe example, if we didn't eat plants because we thought is "hurt" them, they would STILL get eaten by insects or parasites would they not? Man isn't the only predator that eats plants, so there must be a REASON plants get eaten.

Same thing with animals. Man isn't the ONLY predator who eats various forms of meat either. It happens all over in nature completely independent of what WE, as humans, do.

Again one might observe that it is so and then ask "What is the reason for this?"


Besides, if WE don't eat, we die, then is it possible we have went AGAINST what the universe wants? Because Gudrjieff, Mouravieff and company all say we were created to be a bridge between organic life and "higher" energies streaming from the "sun" and that the planet and moon would die without us.

So, the best thing to do, I think at this point, is to stop worrying about it and do what makes us healthy which appears, through data, albeit some of it anecdotal, to differ from one to another.

Don

 

[Keit]

Check out the site for a photo.

Turkeys try for fast train out of Jersey

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061123/ap_on_fe_st/turkeys_train

RAMSEY, N.J. - Some wild turkeys, it appears, were trying to get out of New Jersey before Thanksgiving Day. A spokesman for the NJ Transit said train officials reported a dozen or so wild turkeys waiting on a station platform in Ramsey, about 20 miles northwest of New York City, on Wednesday afternoon. The line travels to Suffern, N.Y.

"For a moment, it looked like the turkeys were waiting for the next outbound train," said Dan Stessel, a spokesman for NJ Transit. "Clearly, they're trying to catch a train and escape their fate."

Transit workers followed the bird's movements on surveillance cameras. "I have no idea how they got there," Stessel said.

A Ramsey police dispatcher said the department had received three calls about the traveling turkeys who also were blamed for causing morning rush hour traffic problems on a roadway.

"From time to time, I've heard calls that there are turkeys on the loose," said Erik Endress, president of the Ramsey Rescue Squad, a volunteer group. "Maybe they're trying to make a break."

 

[CarpeDiem]

Has anyone else had similiar loss of interest in appetite?

Almost entirely. No pleasure in eating at all. I would call it "consuming gross energy" now. Some time ago i enjoyed cooking, and was eager to find some weird african or italian recipes to surprise everybody. It's all gone. Fresh carrot juice - that's a breakfast as i developed sight / vision problems. Can stay without a dinner with no problem like today (and yesterday, and the day before too). Honestly i have no idea how my body manages to maintain a constant weight with that little i eat daily. There are also some i would say philosophical problems with meat-eating recently: every time i have to go for a fresh tenderloin for my son, i think that those peskies also stay in line for the freshest cut of neg emotions seasoned meat of some our fellow human. We are like those farm-raised chickens in run as in that english cartoon by Nick Park.

 

[StarFraction]

Deckard wrote:

"Imagine the culture which is in unison with nature and all its cycles including the cycle of life and death. It is only our culture where death is conceived as something horrendous.

"It is indicated that people before fall were communing with gods therefore I don't see a reason why they couldn't have communicated with other forms of life such as animals.

In such scenario its very easy to imagine the situation where animals are appeased with appropriate thoughts by hunters and then they agree to sacrifice their life for the continuation of the life of others."

This was exactly my meaning when I posted:

"As consciously as possible do what you perceive to be necessary for yourself at the time. And treat all things/beings with respect."

It reminds me of the opening to the Daniel Day-Lewis film 'The Last Of The Mohicans."

Hawkeye, Chingachcook and Uncas are running through the forest chasing their prey ... a magnificent, antlered buck ....

'1757 ... the American Colonies ... it is the third year of the war between England and France for possession of the Colonies ....

'.... Three men ... the last of a vanishing people ... are in the frontier west of the Hudson River ....'

Hawkeye takes aim ... and fires.

The buck tumbles and dies. Food for many days and nights ... and many people.

The three hunters approach the dead buck and crouch down beside it ... with reverence.

Chingachcook speaks:

"We're sorry to kill you Brother. We do honour to your courage, your speed, your strength."

Respect.

Regards,
StarFraction

 

[Mr. Premise]

A couple of things. No one has really responded to the fact that industrial meat production is extremely wasteful of energy and food resources in a planet where probably over a billion people are undernourished.

Also, when you say killing vegetables hurts them, grain comes from annual grasses, they produce their seed and die. Nuts are tree seeds that are produced and would fall on their own, as do fruit. Those things were meant to be collected, eaten and thereby distributed by mammals and birds.

The argument (aside from the blood-type health argument) seems to be we can't be pure, so let's not worry about improvements. Same logic as saying perfection is unattainable so I won't try to improve myself. Each choice is important.

In some areas we have little choice, but in other areas, like what we eat we have lots of choices. If not vegetarianism, what about eating organic, for example. Do we want to encourage genetically engineered foods and seeds and the massive use of pesticides?

How many of us think like a hammer about what we eat? How many of us eat what our parents eat and what those around us eat? Not trying to be doctrinaire, just raising questions.

So has anyone seen Fast Food Nation yet? I haven't read the book yet, even, but I like Linklater as a filmmaker.

 

[Kesdjan]

I remember reading somewhere years ago that the domestic pig is a "created" critter - a hybrid engineered with human genes in there somehow. Might have been Cayce or someone like him who said this, so of course it is without any evidence. If, however, that is even remotely true, and it is also true that pork is not good for anyone, then that suggests that cannibalism is not a very smart choice just from the point of view of health.

This does not suggest that cannibalisim is not healthy. It does not follow from the premises "pigs have human genes" and "pork is not good for anyone" that eating human flesh is not healthy. It is possible that the other animal that was involved in the pigs' hybridization is the cause of the unhealthiness of pork. Actually, considering the human body has all the essential nutrients required by the human body, it would seem cannibalism is extremely healthy (not that I'm promoting it). I have read that cannibalism causes certain diseases (such as the fatal Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease) due to the ingestion of malformed proteins called prions, however, so I would't advise doing such for health reasons.

 

[anart]

A couple of things. No one has really responded to the fact that industrial meat production is extremely wasteful of energy and food resources in a planet where probably over a billion people are undernourished.

I could have missed it, but I don't think anyone has said anything positive about factory farming or the industrialization of meat production - that whole industry is beyond redemption, as far as I'm concerned. The cruelty alone is enough to cause nightmares.

Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to ensure that the meat they eat comes from a less cruel environment. It sounds like those in France have a lucky step up in that department, since there is still some sense of compassion for the animals that over-rides the quest for the mighty dollar (or Euro).

In a perfect world we wouldn't have to consume others, much less cause them untold suffering and lives of misery before we consume them - but, we're not in a perfect world - I know that's not very enlightening, but it comes back to the idea that we have to 'eat' to live, to be here, to learn these lessons and to do what we came here to do. Yes, I do think making an effort to reduce the amount of suffering involved is a decision that I would make if I ate meat, but not everyone is in a position to do that easily, if at all. FWIW

 

[Adaryn]

Also, when you say killing vegetables hurts them, grain comes from annual grasses, they produce their seed and die. Nuts are tree seeds that are produced and would fall on their own, as do fruit. Those things were meant to be collected, eaten and thereby distributed by mammals and birds.

Good point, I was thinking of it too.
I looked for some explanation on the process :Let's take a fruit, its flesh is meant to nourrish the pit. When the fruit falls naturally on the ground when it is ripe, only the fruit that has been fertilised when it was a flower has the chance to produce a plant which will become mature. Then if you do things in conscience, you can collect the fruits which won't produce an adult plant (the fruits which lie in shadow, which are not on a favourable ground...) You only collect the percentage that is lost for the biotope.

Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to ensure that the meat they eat comes from a less cruel environment. It sounds like those in France have a lucky step up in that department, since there is still some sense of compassion for the animals that over-rides the quest for the mighty dollar (or Euro).

Not sure it's about compassion... we still have animal experiments and corrida in France, both things are very cruel and especially the infamous corrida, which is just killing for pleasure, it's not even "for the sake of science".
Check these : http://www.onevoice-ear.org/english/campaigns/killing_pleasure/index.html
http://www.experimentation-animale.org/index_english.html

And we have a powerful lobby of hunters... a lot of them kill just for pleasure, they don't even eat what they kill. They kill protected bird species, birds on migration... just anything. Sometimes they even shoot humans.

Except that the mother must eat to produce the milk... does that "corrupt" the infant?

Yes in a way, since all the mother eats passes in the milk. Though the most essential thing for milk producing is for the mother to drink a lot rather to eat. She can fast, as long as she drinks. But in the end, she still must eat.

 

[Meager1]

Since the Earth itself is mostly a huge rocky mass hurtling through space, it seems that the primary hard mass stripped down, is nothing more then a container for sleeping consciousness. And would seriously out "weigh" any awake consciousness living on it.

The next layer, or the idea of Mother Nature as life, beginning with the grasses and trees, flowers and weeds etc, feed on the rocky mass and break it down ever so slowly.

The next layer, containing animals that eat the grasses and the weeds, fruits etc, and humans, along with predators that eat those animals, take everything progressively further, from the rocky mass itself.

So it seems that life, or Nature itself, on the Earth is designed to continually feed on and remove the hard blocks that hold sleeping consciousness within this solid mass.

Life on Earth, could even be considered the long cycle design, for breaking down or releasing the blocks of sleeping consciousness.

Then world wide cataclysms could be the slowing down process, removing the life that helps to break down, release or wake up sleeping consciousness.

Does this sound even remotely likely? Or just spooky?

Because "Mother Nature" itself, in this case, would simply be one giant and continuous long cycle eating mechanism and everything would be designed to perpetuate it.