Venusian Arts - Come pre-loaded in pyschopaths?

[obyvatel]

[quote author=luke wilson]
I went out recently with a friend and he put a challenge down about just talking to random people but using the method in the book. What got me is all the emotions that were going through me, the fear of approach, the fear of not being liked, the fear of looking bad, all this. It seemed to me like a mine-field of doing work. What programs will come up? Why do all this different fears exist? I mean, it was like 9 tenths of the battle was against oneself.
[/quote]
Gurdjieff talks about getting into situations in which a person is taken out of his comfort zone and how this helps in the Work.

[quote author=ISOTM]
You must realize that each man has a definite repertoire of roles which he plays in ordinary circumstances," said G. in this connection. "He has a role for every kind of circumstance in which he ordinarily finds himself in life; but put him into even only slightly different circumstances and he is unable to find a suitable role and for, a short time he becomes himself. The study of the roles a man plays represents a very necessary part of self-knowledge. Each man's repertoire is very limited.
................
But the point is that, outside his repertoire, a man feels very uncomfortable should something push him if only temporarily out of his rut, and he tries his hardest to return to any one of his usual roles. Directly he falls back into the rut everything at once goes smoothly again and the feeling of awkwardness and tension disappears. This is how it is in life; but in the work, in order to observe oneself, one must become reconciled to this awkwardness and tension and to the feeling of discomfort and helplessness. Only by experiencing this discomfort can a man really observe himself. And it is clear why this is so. When a man is not playing any of his usual roles, when he cannot find a suitable role in his repertoire, he feels that he is undressed. He is cold and ashamed and wants to run away from everybody. But the question arises: What does he want? A quiet life or to work on himself? If he wants a quiet life, he must certainly first of all never move out of his repertoire. In his usual roles he feels comfortable and at peace. But if he wants to work on himself, he must destroy his peace.
[/quote]
The key point as far as I see here is the aim with which such activity is undertaken. If you try socializing with people (in a safe environment) with the aim of observing your fears and tensions, then there is value in it as far as the Work is concerned.
[quote author=luke wilson]
Also from having read this, I can see that not anyone can do it, it requires people to work on themselves, to trim and get themselves in shape(physically, emotionally, intelectually), to figure themselves out, to understand there vulnerabilities to be able to be socially savvy and understand other people, it also pushes people to find value in themselves so that others can find value in them.
[/quote]
But if this is about getting popular with others for the sake of feeding one's vanity then it just strengthens the false personality and programs and is detrimental to the Work.

[quote author=luke wilson]
See, like anart said, get to know yourself, he says the only way to do this is if you step out of your comfort zone, go out there and try, meet your demons, defeat them and horn your skills. Love yourself, you have to essentially otherwise there would be no point of doing any of this. Work on yourself, it's work. So, eventhough the book essentially gives people skills that is hoped they would use to be more STS in nature interms of, all this is geared to sex, bottomline, the journey there will involve alot of work some of which is esoteric(like fighting personal demons) and aslong as someone just changes the motivation, then my take on it is that it isnt such a bad book.

That is why I am torn, not interms of what I will do but interms of what to think of it.

[/quote]
You are probably interpreting the content of the book through the filter of some concepts which are not part of this book. You can ask yourself how you would have understood this book (keeping in mind the "need to be liked by others" program in yourself) if you were not familiar with the concept of Work, and did not network here.

 

[luke wilson]

You are probably interpreting the content of the book through the filter of some concepts which are not part of this book. You can ask yourself how you would have understood this book (keeping in mind the "need to be liked by others" program in yourself) if you were not familiar with the concept of Work, and did not network here.

That is correct obyvatel. I read it and checked what it said with what I have found out here - I try to do this nowadays with whatever new information I come across. It comes across as being manipulative and the bottom line of it is having sex solely, not getting to know the other person in like a genuine way. However, I realised that if you change that motivation into a motivation to do work, step out of your comfort zone in a safe peaceful environment just to talk to other people, you can observe oneself and do work on oneself interms of seeing fears and tension let alone improving social skills plus knowing how to relate to a wide-array of people that one wouldnt normally meet or talk to. Basically, this will result in improved self-observation and self-remembering plus one can work on internal/external consideration etc etc OSIT.

luke,

I don't understand why you are torn? Are you comparing the manipulation techniques in this book to the concept of the 'Work' as described here on this forum? From what little I've read of this book from what you've posted so far, it seems like the book is concerned about changing external appearances without changing the substance of the man underneath. For instance, it says to "smile more". Well, that might be appropriate in some instances and totally inappropriate in others. On the inside one changes nothing by smiling more. It just leads to a greater disconnect between your expressions and your real feelings; hardly something that most women would consider beneficial for an enduring relationship.

The reason why I am torn is because if you apply knowledge of the work and esoterism and STO v STS whilst reading the book then it comes across as a way of doing work, i.e. stepping out of ones comfort zone where one will come face to face with the predators mind and the many I's. Applying this concept more broadly, one gains more confident the more one steps out of there comfort zone which drives one further in there quest. The trick as you say is not to enforce the false personality but rather to enforce the real I and will to master the many I's.

However, apart from the bet I mentioned, I havent done anything else, right now I am just giving it alot of brain service, not taking action interms of talking to strangers at social gatherings.

Without the third force, ponerization always takes over.

Economics is part of my course at uni and there are some parts of it that are designed on human behaviour. Or rather what they'd like to call rational human behaviour where people act in a certain way given certain choices. The way is to maximise there welfare and it is said people will always act like this. Many lecturers have said that, this isnt entirely accurate but the reason economic models are based on such assumptions is because it simplifies them and they think this will benefit those most capable(now I know this are pyschopaths and other pathologicals) and the results should trickle down to others. None of this stuff works! All it takes is for someone to look out there window and realise even so called developed countries arent that much developed... What's the point of being developed interms of materialism and technology if millions upon millions of citizens are poor, doing dead-end jobs and barely realising there potential, a whole bunch of people taking drugs in order to search for something more or mask the pain, people being stressed, depressed, awhole lot of suppressed negative emotions locked up withing the citizenry etc etc. None of this stuff works. It's all just a bunch of hooey in my opinion. The 3rd force is not taken into consideration(and I suspect it's hardly studied or even acknowledged) and there is a good reason for it. We are not meant to be free or realise our potential if you take into account the fact that we are meant to be food, furthermore, we are meant to be slaves (either wage slaves or slaves to the cultural/matrix system) and slaves cannot be given tools that will help them free themselves. Slaves are only to be made to work harder and more efficiently whilst causing there masters the least amount of head-ache interms of cries for freedom, rebellion etc etc.

 

[RyanX]

luke,

I don't understand why you are torn? Are you comparing the manipulation techniques in this book to the concept of the 'Work' as described here on this forum? From what little I've read of this book from what you've posted so far, it seems like the book is concerned about changing external appearances without changing the substance of the man underneath. For instance, it says to "smile more". Well, that might be appropriate in some instances and totally inappropriate in others. On the inside one changes nothing by smiling more. It just leads to a greater disconnect between your expressions and your real feelings; hardly something that most women would consider beneficial for an enduring relationship.

The reason why I am torn is because if you apply knowledge of the work and esoterism and STO v STS whilst reading the book then it comes across as a way of doing work, i.e. stepping out of ones comfort zone where one will come face to face with the predators mind and the many I's. Applying this concept more broadly, one gains more confident the more one steps out of there comfort zone which drives one further in there quest. The trick as you say is not to enforce the false personality but rather to enforce the real I and will to master the many I's.

luke,

I think obtyval said it best when he said that you seem to be reading this book through a filter. The problem with this is that there seem to be a lot of wrong ideas in this book even if you filter out the overt manipulation of women for sex. AI already pointed out the thing about Maslow. I personally couldn't see very little that would related to any esoteric ideas, but then again I haven't read the whole book, and probably won't since there are SO many other vital books that could be read in its place! That's what gets me is why would you bother with a book like this when there are countless other books recommended on this forum that contain knowledge that may actually help you to serve others. I think it's good that you're able to read this book critically, and at least see the problems with certain parts, but why sift through what you know is mud when this network has already done that sifting it to compile an excellent recommendation of books. For instance, why not pick up a copy of Women who Love Psychopaths by Sandra Brown? It sounds like this book you're reading may contain some of the same ideas, although flipped around and used in the context of preying on women instead of helping them.

Part of the work is coming to the understanding that we can't trust the way we think. Do you really feel that you've assimilated enough knowledge to be able to judge right ideas from wrong ideas already?

Here is a post by Laura from a past thread that I've found useful when it comes to seeking out knowledge and ideas.

Considering the fact that we know very well that there is a serious and deadly game being played on the global stage today, that psychopaths rule the world and that they have unique insight into how to attract, engage and entrap "normal" people who do not have adequate psychological knowledge, something in the intro to Anna Salter's book on predators sticks in my mind:

"Above all, I encourage parents to make careful, slow choices about people they include in their
children's lives - and fast choices about the people they exclude."

This should be applied to ourselves as well as our children. In fact, we should guard our own souls as carefully and anxiously as we would guard a well-loved child.

In the case of religions and philosophies and "esoteric teachings," we very desperately need to apply this same maxim: Make careful and slow choices about any individual, teaching, material you assimilate to your psyche, and when you see the tiniest indication that something is amiss, make a fast decision to exclude it.

The quote was given in the context of the teachings of Michael Tasarion, but I think it could be applied to any system of ideas of beliefs. I think it is good advise to consider your psyche as a malleable child and treat it with utmost care.

 

[luke wilson]

Part of the work is coming to the understanding that we can't trust the way we think. Do you really feel that you've assimilated enough knowledge to be able to judge right ideas from wrong ideas already?

No I have no where near the kind of knowledge where I can correctly discern what is wrong or right. The reason I seem so hung up on this particular book is because I have a "fault" in that I dont have the kind of relationships with other people especially women that I want to have so I gave this book the "time of day" because I wanted to see what it says about relationship building. I immediately noticed the manipulative stance it took and the whole sex driven agenda.

However, after some consideration, I am not going to do what it says. That on one hand will mean that the way my relationships are will remain the same unless I somehow get like a quantum boost interms of development which is unlikely - hallo mr wave, :P - a boy can only dream. What I was really after that got me all excited after reading this book is what obyvatel quoted below.

You must realize that each man has a definite repertoire of roles which he plays in ordinary circumstances," said G. in this connection. "He has a role for every kind of circumstance in which he ordinarily finds himself in life; but put him into even only slightly different circumstances and he is unable to find a suitable role and for, a short time he becomes himself. The study of the roles a man plays represents a very necessary part of self-knowledge. Each man's repertoire is very limited.
................
But the point is that, outside his repertoire, a man feels very uncomfortable should something push him if only temporarily out of his rut, and he tries his hardest to return to any one of his usual roles. Directly he falls back into the rut everything at once goes smoothly again and the feeling of awkwardness and tension disappears. This is how it is in life; but in the work, in order to observe oneself, one must become reconciled to this awkwardness and tension and to the feeling of discomfort and helplessness. Only by experiencing this discomfort can a man really observe himself. And it is clear why this is so. When a man is not playing any of his usual roles, when he cannot find a suitable role in his repertoire, he feels that he is undressed. He is cold and ashamed and wants to run away from everybody. But the question arises: What does he want? A quiet life or to work on himself? If he wants a quiet life, he must certainly first of all never move out of his repertoire. In his usual roles he feels comfortable and at peace. But if he wants to work on himself, he must destroy his peace.

What I want to ask is:

How does one know if they are making progress interms of the work or freeing themselves from the matrix given a certain starting point which is the point they were at before consciously embarking on this journey?

How can one speed up the process? What obyvatel said is quite theoretical and I am wondering if there is a way to transform this to practise.

 

[Gimpy]

What I want to ask is:

How does one know if they are making progress in terms of the work or freeing themselves from the matrix given a certain starting point which is the point they were at before consciously embarking on this journey?

You don't, especially without a means to 'track yourself'. ;) Perhaps begin a journal of some kind on your end....just bear in mind, it's useless without feedback and mirroring from a network.

How can one speed up the process?

There are no shortcuts in the Work luke. Going too fast is just as bad as not Working at all, osit.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

What I want to ask is:

How does one know if they are making progress interms of the work or freeing themselves from the matrix given a certain starting point which is the point they were at before consciously embarking on this journey?

How can one speed up the process? What obyvatel said is quite theoretical and I am wondering if there is a way to transform this to practise.

Like Gurdjieff said, we cannot change ourselves at first. And focusing on "results" and "transformation" can be a dead end. Yes, we need an aim, but this aim will never be realized if we anticipate. So where to start? Efforts to self-remember and efforts to self-observe, impartially. You may not like what you see, but it's only after these impressions of yourself accumulate that you'll have the energy to actually change.

 

[Mr. Premise]

I would add, Luke, that you would probably develop faster or more effectively if your AIM is outside yourself, and that the working on yourself is to more effectively fulfill your AIM which is outside yourself.

On another thread you mentioned that one program you have stems from reactions from your family when you were young when you felt they found you boring because you talked too much. Flash forward to today, and most of your posts on the forum have to do with your problems and your preoccupations. People do find others boring if they only talk about themselves. It's an unbalanced exchange and it drains people. It is natural at your age to be self-preoccupied, but maybe instead of worrying all the time about your progress, about your loneliness, about your relationship troubles, you could also try giving to other people in different ways. On the forum it may be helping others out with their problems sometimes instead of always asking everyone here to help you with yours.

You may find that some of your blockages dissolve without you even noticing at first.

Just a thought

What I want to ask is:

How does one know if they are making progress interms of the work or freeing themselves from the matrix given a certain starting point which is the point they were at before consciously embarking on this journey?

How can one speed up the process? What obyvatel said is quite theoretical and I am wondering if there is a way to transform this to practise.

Like Gurdjieff said, we cannot change ourselves at first. And focusing on "results" and "transformation" can be a dead end. Yes, we need an aim, but this aim will never be realized if we anticipate. So where to start? Efforts to self-remember and efforts to self-observe, impartially. You may not like what you see, but it's only after these impressions of yourself accumulate that you'll have the energy to actually change.

 

[luke wilson]

I would add, Luke, that you would probably develop faster or more effectively if your AIM is outside yourself, and that the working on yourself is to more effectively fulfill your AIM which is outside yourself.

On another thread you mentioned that one program you have stems from reactions from your family when you were young when you felt they found you boring because you talked too much. Flash forward to today, and most of your posts on the forum have to do with your problems and your preoccupations. People do find others boring if they only talk about themselves. It's an unbalanced exchange and it drains people. It is natural at your age to be self-preoccupied, but maybe instead of worrying all the time about your progress, about your loneliness, about your relationship troubles, you could also try giving to other people in different ways. On the forum it may be helping others out with their problems sometimes instead of always asking everyone here to help you with yours.

You may find that some of your blockages dissolve without you even noticing at first.

Just a thought

What I want to ask is:

How does one know if they are making progress interms of the work or freeing themselves from the matrix given a certain starting point which is the point they were at before consciously embarking on this journey?

How can one speed up the process? What obyvatel said is quite theoretical and I am wondering if there is a way to transform this to practise.

Like Gurdjieff said, we cannot change ourselves at first. And focusing on "results" and "transformation" can be a dead end. Yes, we need an aim, but this aim will never be realized if we anticipate. So where to start? Efforts to self-remember and efforts to self-observe, impartially. You may not like what you see, but it's only after these impressions of yourself accumulate that you'll have the energy to actually change.

Thanks for this Mr.Premise. I have actually thought about this and have regressed on my posting in other peoples thread. This hasnt happened necessarily because I am overly occupied with myself that I become blind to other people. In all honesty, I made the conscious decision to withhold unless it is something I know with absolute certainty and most of the problems people post about on the forum is to do with problems they are experiencing in there life or thoughts they are having and I dont have enough knowledge or insight to be helpful in this regard. Atleast not yet. The only way I know how to be helpful right now is by asking questions.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Thanks for this Mr.Premise. I have actually thought about this and have regressed on my posting in other peoples thread. This hasnt happened necessarily because I am overly occupied with myself that I become blind to other people. In all honesty, I made the conscious decision to withhold unless it is something I know with absolute certainty and most of the problems people post about on the forum is to do with problems they are experiencing in there life or thoughts they are having and I dont have enough knowledge or insight to be helpful in this regard. Atleast not yet. The only way I know how to be helpful right now is by asking questions.

If you wait until you have absolute certainty before you offer your perspective, you will never help anyone. As long as you offer what you can and make FWIW disclaimers that the observations are just the way you see things now and you could be wrong, what's the worst that could happen? But I understand what you are saying. But people aren't always asking for solutions, sometimes they are looking for empathy or understanding, and people at any stage can always offer that!

 

[Buddy]

You may find that some of your blockages dissolve without you even noticing at first.

Just a thought

This is true, as I see it.

In all honesty, I made the conscious decision to withhold unless it is something I know with absolute certainty...

Absolute certainty is hard to come by. OSIT and IMHO may help. :)

...and most of the problems people post about on the forum is to do with problems they are experiencing in there life or thoughts they are having and I dont have enough knowledge or insight to be helpful in this regard. Atleast not yet. The only way I know how to be helpful right now is by asking questions.

If you'll refrain from making excuses for a minute you might find this funny:

There's been a few times when I felt the same way, and didn't have anything to say, but the thread was interesting. At least twice I spent several hours researching a subject, composing a post with 'helpful' info, only to go back to the thread to find someone just posted the info I spent hours looking for.

So I just saved it to my computer and went on to something else. If the subject is an issue that is recurring, then it pays to continue researching it because it may come up again later.

I've even went off on tangents studying related issues and been absent from the forum for a couple of days, but learning is fun and never ending and the more you learn the more you'll have available to share, OSIT.

Where theres a 'will to do', a 'way' can be discovered.

I've already mentioned the idea of 'hidden opposites'. Granted it might not be a 'pretty' concept, or sound like what others are saying, but it would likely have helped you to uncover areas in your life where the third force is not operating.

Also, either one of the Glossaries that we use contain a lot of useful information:

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php
http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Main_Page

 

[Oxajil]

Thanks for this Mr.Premise. I have actually thought about this and have regressed on my posting in other peoples thread. This hasnt happened necessarily because I am overly occupied with myself that I become blind to other people. In all honesty, I made the conscious decision to withhold unless it is something I know with absolute certainty and most of the problems people post about on the forum is to do with problems they are experiencing in there life or thoughts they are having and I dont have enough knowledge or insight to be helpful in this regard. Atleast not yet. The only way I know how to be helpful right now is by asking questions.

If you wait until you have absolute certainty before you offer your perspective, you will never help anyone. As long as you offer what you can and make FWIW disclaimers that the observations are just the way you see things now and you could be wrong, what's the worst that could happen? But I understand what you are saying. But people aren't always asking for solutions, sometimes they are looking for empathy or understanding, and people at any stage can always offer that!

Exactly. And it's different when you think you are all-knowing and think you are here to just teach people.
If you are being open to learn what there is to learn and decide to share your thoughts when you think they could be helpful, you observe from that point on to see how people react to that post of yours and maybe get an idea if it was helpful or not, either way you can take it as a lesson. You might discover some points you could consider before posting next time, or you'll learn other things or maybe nothing. Or maybe people might not respond.
Many possibilities, possibilities to learn from.

Try to be considerate, open, keep on reading, networking and observing... and:
“Shoot for the moon and if you miss you will still be among the stars if you choose to.”

I've even went off on tangents studying related issues and been absent from the forum for a couple of days, but learning is fun and never ending and the more you learn the more you'll have available to share, OSIT.

Very good point, also!