Victim mindset, some thoughts

[RedFox]

Hi all

I've been reading over several threads this last month(s), where quite a few of the people involved where stuck in (and unable to see/break out of) a victim mind set, when whatever original cause was now past. I could see a lot of my past behavior in them. I’ve come to some new understandings and would like to check with you all that they are not faulty/missing anything?

Along with a lot of people at the moment my workload is pretty high, combined with some other mounting responsibilities, depleted energy and pondering those threads I found myself slipping back in to the comfortable old (well practiced) victim mindset. This was a little surprising (hadn't I 'dealt' with this before?) but different in that I managed to self observe a little more than previously, which meant I could at least observe what was going on instead of identifying with it 100%.

Well the mind set took hold and my mood sank and my energy dropped and then I realized something, this 'victim mindset' is probably the predators mindset! Talk about snapping me out of it! It was like coming up for air from under the ocean.

I did notice afterwards that I was on a sort of high (like you might get from a sugar rush), so concluded that this probably wasn't the whole picture (although possibly a large chunk?), and resolved to post here last week asking what observation I may be missing....which I didn't get round to.

Several things happened that I observed over this last week. My energy levels instantly increased, along with my ability to cope with every day life and self observe. My mechanicalness also seems to have increased quite a lot too (or perhaps I’m just observing better?). I'm staying up later at night…draining the freed up energy. But absolutely no 'victim' mindset!
Given it felt like I was missing something I eventually concluded it wasn't so much that the victim mindset Was the predators mind (although this did give me room to be objective), more that the victim mindset (and being a victim) ok (in the context of Actually being one), but had been twisted into a form of internal (and thus external) manipulation. I'd never seen that before. I can see why understanding pathologies is so important to freeing yourself.

It was about this time that I had two nightmares.
I dreamt that my girlfriend had suddenly decided to see another man, and that my friends supported her decision because of 'what I'd done'. She seemed happy, and my friends seemed hostile towards me. Before I could even ask what it was that I had done, they all disappeared into rooms in the house. I followed only to walk in on my girlfriend intimately involved with her 'new man' (seconds after telling me). I shut the door half wanting to ask what the hell was going on, half not wanting to disturb them (this part of me won). It felt like my heart and guts had been ripped out. Talking to my friends they asked if I felt guilty about what I'd done….still not knowing what it was I said 'no?' They left in disgust.

I woke up with the physical feelings still there (and not diminishing). It being 4am I couldn’t wake my girlfriend to talk to her about it (seek comfort!), it also made absolutely no sense. I knew this couldn’t happen. I fell asleep and the dream virtually repeated with some minor variations (this has never happened before), all with that feeling/emotion in my guts still there.
The theme's being rejection by my girlfriend (for another man who was somewhat abusive, and she seemed completely happy/head over heels about it), and by my friends (through something I'd done to my girlfriend I was oblivious of!). I woke up in a mild panic…..only managed to calm myself by conceding that if she decided she could leave me, and that I may unfortunately (although hopefully very remotely) do something I was oblivious of to drive her away.

It only dawned on my today that I'd taken the dream too literally, and it was actually about what I'd done in tarring the victim mindset (and All the emotions that go with it!) as the predators mind.
By rejecting my negative mindset (which I still think is correct) along with my negative emotions (where my mistake was), I'd done what I’ve learnt my mother did to me as a child (she was rejecting of my negative emotions, and by proxy me).
Today is the first day I can remember feeling emotional pain and not feeling like a victim (or should I say thinking like a victim) or feeling unhappy about it. Its funny how much of my life (pretty much all of it) I can now see is about being rejected (or fearing being rejected). This forum especially (the fear of being rejected by it)!

So I'd like to ask, how's my understanding doing? Am I on the right track or is it faulty? And if its not faulty maybe it'll be useful to others...without 'feeding' my desire to be accepted externally (I need to look internally for that).
Lots of work for me to do now, but I finally feel hopeful about it!
Any and all observations welcomed.

 

[Annette1]

Hi RF!

I found your thoughts and insights helpful and some of it resonated with me. The victim mindset/predator mindset as an energy drain certainly did. Removing oneself from the victim mindset certainly does free up a lot of energy. Pinpointing the mechanicalness of it, imo, is an asset in preventing oneself from slipping into that mode of thought.

Better yet is that every revelation that propels us toward understanding and knowledge and applying it toward positive growth garners the energy to move forward! :D

 

[Buddy]

Any and all observations welcomed.

Hi RedFox;

Well the mind set took hold and my mood sank and my energy dropped and then I realized something, this 'victim mindset' is probably the predators mindset!

That's the way I see it. This clever metaphor for the system of buffers is very useful for gaining some valuable perspective. Sorta like being able to step outside of it so that you can see it as 'not me'.

Talk about snapping me out of it! It was like coming up for air from under the ocean.
I did notice afterwards that I was on a sort of high (like you might get from a sugar rush), so concluded that this probably wasn't the whole picture (although possibly a large chunk?), and resolved to post here last week asking what observation I may be missing....which I didn't get round to.

That seems to be one of the more useful features of that realization - liberating some emotion for fuel - or liberating oneself from a trap that narrows focus. Possibly the same thing it seems to me; just viewed from two different points.
On the rare occasion that I have felt an emotional surge of that magnitude, I had to wonder if I had just traded one mindset for another without really gaining much objectivity. Sorta like saying the victim mind-set dropped out, but a manic type of mind-set took its place. Maybe the answer for a given individual in that circumstance lies in whether the emotion was simply there to be experienced and/or used as desired, or if it was accompanied by a driving force. I'm really not too sure, but that sounds reasonable.

It only dawned on my today that I'd taken the dream too literally, and it was actually about what I'd done in tarring the victim mindset (and All the emotions that go with it!) as the predators mind.

I'm only guessing, but this does sound like an important realization, considering what was going on before.

Its funny how much of my life (pretty much all of it) I can now see is about being rejected (or fearing being rejected). This forum especially (the fear of being rejected by it)!

You may already be aware of this, but another useful way of looking at this is in thinking that it is the 'predator's mind' that fears rejection by you should you discover its machinations. After all, the predator's mind is not the 'real you' is it? What is it about the 'real you' that could possibly be rejected? :)

 

[RedFox]

I found your thoughts and insights helpful and some of it resonated with me. The victim mindset/predator mindset as an energy drain certainly did. Removing oneself from the victim mindset certainly does free up a lot of energy. Pinpointing the mechanicalness of it, imo, is an asset in preventing oneself from slipping into that mode of thought.

Definitely. I've had some of the old pattern of thoughts resurface a few times over the last few days. This time however they carried a lot less weight/force to them, and I was able to reason the thoughts away, allow the emotion to be there and take note of what triggered it. I find being able to observe myself like this quite exciting!
I guess it all boils down to learning how not to identify with your thoughts.

Better yet is that every revelation that propels us toward understanding and knowledge and applying it toward positive growth garners the energy to move forward! :D

So it seems. Part of me is trying to find a balance to all this available energy now, and have just noticed my negative interject just stealing a chunk by stating 'I need to find balance' in such a way as to suggest this energy is somehow wrong. Weeding through these thoughts to find balance is quite a challenge....and in other ways it isn't as long as I keep paying attention.

That's the way I see it. This clever metaphor for the system of buffers is very useful for gaining some valuable perspective. Sorta like being able to step outside of it so that you can see it as 'not me'.

To learn how to step outside, and to now be able to keep applying it has been fantastic to me. I've understood the theory for so long, so to actually Do it feels liberating (I think learning to realise you need to, and how to step outside yourself and observe takes a while to understand). I actually seem to be able to apply this daily...if not minute by minute (When I remember to).

On the rare occasion that I have felt an emotional surge of that magnitude, I had to wonder if I had just traded one mindset for another without really gaining much objectivity. Sorta like saying the victim mind-set dropped out, but a manic type of mind-set took its place. Maybe the answer for a given individual in that circumstance lies in whether the emotion was simply there to be experienced and/or used as desired, or if it was accompanied by a driving force. I'm really not too sure, but that sounds reasonable.

This seems to be where I'm at too, and some of the reason for posting. To work out if I hadn't swapped one mindset (program) for another. So far I have been able to notice that many of the thoughts tied to this (trying to find balance....or even that I need to, fear of another program etc etc) are actually negative programs themself, and they are trying to take this energy (even if the thoughts themself may have some truth in them).
Perhaps even if it is just some sort of manic mind set I've traded the victim one for, the only way I'll know is by allowing it to be there and observe where it leads/what it does. So far everything else has seems to have derailed it (stolen its energy) when its shown up!!
Hmm

You may already be aware of this, but another useful way of looking at this is in thinking that it is the 'predator's mind' that fears rejection by you should you discover its machinations. After all, the predator's mind is not the 'real you' is it? What is it about the 'real you' that could possibly be rejected? :)

Actually no I wasn't aware of the connection until you pointed it out, you made my day when I read this yesterday and I've been able to apply it to many other observations since. :)
However I did try seeing it from another perspective....

What is it about the 'real you' that could possibly be rejected?

I have to ask, is this a possibility? Or am I letting the predators mind convince me these are my thoughts? This seems a very sore area for me...
Part of me wants input/reassurance etc....and I think its trying to feed of that...
Another part of me feels like a deer caught in headlights...
Its funny, I think given the understanding I initially posted if the 'real I' was rejected by someone, it wouldn't matter to me.

Having said all that though, I think I need some help/pointers on untangling these thoughts....feels like a bit of a war going on inside me over this one!

Some clarity seems to come from the part wanting reassurance...its probable that a child 'i' from the time I was rejected is also tangled in this and needs healing. Could it be that the feeding element of that is something the predators twisted for its own purpose? Never allowing that part of me to be healed as it would limit its ability to feed?

 

[Buddy]

What is it about the 'real you' that could possibly be rejected?

I have to ask, is this a possibility? Or am I letting the predators mind convince me these are my thoughts? This seems a very sore area for me...
Part of me wants input/reassurance etc....and I think its trying to feed of that...
Another part of me feels like a deer caught in headlights...
Its funny, I think given the understanding I initially posted if the 'real I' was rejected by someone, it wouldn't matter to me.

Having said all that though, I think I need some help/pointers on untangling these thoughts....feels like a bit of a war going on inside me over this one!

Hi RedFox;

By the 'real I', I am referring to the part of you that is capable of observing without identifying at this point in the Work. This is our goal for the practice of self-observation. An 'observer I' that is capable of gathering information, even while being beaten with abandon. The part that can't be harmed no matter what happens to you.

While you are sitting at your computer typing your thoughts, there may, or may not be, another part of you that is watching this process as well as noting your posture, elements in your environment as well as 'noting' anything else there is to note...even the struggle to clarify your struggle for readers. This 'observer I' is rather impartial and unconcerned and notes your activities as naturally flowing from your goal of the moment.

The problem is that this observer I can evaporate in the blink of an eye...especially in the presence of emotion, even if the emotion is only a confusion. This is one reason why self-observing can be so difficult, however, as long as we maintain a drive to become conscious (of our buffers and the reasons for them), we may reach a point where we can maintain our observer presence for some little time. Fundamentally, I think it's simply a matter of choice and whatever amount of 'will' we may have to direct its accomplishment. Sounds good doesn't it? But it is so hard.

I compare the difficulty of the drive to become conscious, with the effort a runner has to make before he can become a marathon winner. In the training phase, there are only the blood vessels and paths needed to supply and maintain the status quo. But the runner has a goal to go farther than that. He has to run...and run...and run...until the body is forced to accommodate the increased need for blood supply by growing new blood vessels and forging new connections with the tissues. At some point he realizes he is experiencing more and more 'second winds' and eventually, is able to complete his marathon much, much more easily than he would have had he tried to take on more than he was ready for at the beginning.

It IS hard, and as the the 'real I' cannot stand a lie in any form, it tends to disappear often, but if we can initiate and maintain a drive to become consciously aware (of a wider view), or of anything at all times, and keep doing the Work, maybe we'll be able to fuse our little I's, maintain that 'higher view' and hold our position on top of the mountain as 'the one in charge'.

What is there about this 'real I' that can possibly be rejected? Only programs can be identified and 'rejected'. OSIT.

 

[RedFox]

Thanks buddy, that helps no end.
One thing is now clear to me is my understanding of these things is not what I thought it was (its lacking in quite a few areas)....I'm getting caught up in peices of the whole picture.
I think (and could well be wrong) that I actually experienced the observer 'i' last night (in probably quite a limit way). I only realised it might be the case because after 10 seconds of some crystal clear observations (including, oddly, observing myself observing myself?) it evaporated and I couldn't get it back....hmm
I'm getting good at self observing (osit), but this seemed a step beyond that.

Back to the books!

 

[cv]

I woke up with the physical feelings still there (and not diminishing). It being 4am I couldn’t wake my girlfriend to talk to her about it (seek comfort!), it also made absolutely no sense. I knew this couldn’t happen. I fell asleep and the dream virtually repeated with some minor variations (this has never happened before), all with that feeling/emotion in my guts still there.

Some friendly advice: Don't ever talk about these types of insecurities with your girlfriend. This kind of weakness (if excessive) is a huge turn off. Women are attracted to safety / security for the large part. 9/10 marry up for those exact reasons.

Any and all observations welcomed.

Eliminating the victim mindset is like lifting a ton of bricks off your shoulders and suddenly creates this incredible (almost invincible) person that can accomplish almost anything. When other 'victims' see failure, you see opportunity, they see mistakes - you see learning experiences that make you stronger.

 

[anart]

Some friendly advice: Don't ever talk about these types of insecurities with your girlfriend.

May I ask why you would give such 'friendly advice'? While alarming another person about impressions that are frightening is never wise, it appears that you are promoting the 'hiding' of a part of himself, which is very different, though I think I do grasp your underlying point, it is the 'don't ever talk about' idea that is alarming. In a healthy relationship, there should be very little about each other that should fall in to the 'don't ever talk about' category. Of course, external consideration should come into play.

This kind of weakness (if excessive) is a huge turn off.

It sounds like you are projecting and making enormous assumptions about other people that are not based in facts - nor are they very helpful.

Women are attracted to safety / security for the large part. 9/10 marry up for those exact reasons.

Would these be neanderthal women?

Eliminating the victim mindset is like lifting a ton of bricks off your shoulders and suddenly creates this incredible (almost invincible) person that can accomplish almost anything.

Sounds like a buffer, which is ultimately anything but helpful.

cv, from your posts thus far, it appears that you are not aware of the purpose of this forum or what it is we do here. That is easily remedied by some research and reading on your part, if you are sincere. It is also helpful to be aware of the Work of GI Gurdjieff, Mouravieff and Laura's works to be able to communicate productively and contribute here, though at least beginning that process and learning is enough of a sign of sincerity to make up for 'newbie' mistakes.

Hopefully, if you are not aware of these works, you will get up to speed so as to be able to join us in the conversation - looking forward to it.

 

[Buddy]

Hi cv;

While you're getting around to your "2-do list", you may or may not find the following comparison interesting:

Eliminating the victim mindset is like lifting a ton of bricks off your shoulders and suddenly creates this incredible (almost invincible) person that can accomplish almost anything.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6989.msg49142#msg49142
[quote author=Laura]
[...]
The way this happens is described in Martha Stout's book, "The Myth of Sanity." It is called "dissociation." When the negative introject comes in, the individual dissociates into fantasy about the self being strong and powerful, capable, able to outsmart everyone else...[/quote]

 

[PepperFritz]

Some friendly advice: Don't ever talk about these types of insecurities with your girlfriend. This kind of weakness (if excessive) is a huge turn off. Women are attracted to safety / security for the large part. 9/10 marry up for those exact reasons.

Wow. That seems like the kind of "advice" macho fathers offered their sons in the 1950s, just like our "Real Women" mothers used to offer us girls the "female" version:

"Don't ever let your boyfriend know that you might be smarter than him. That kind of strength (if excessive) is a huge turn off. Men are attracted to women who are weaker than them and need taking care of. 9/10 marry up for those exact reasons."

CV: Do you really believe that men and women are incapable of having healthy relationships outside of such stereotyped role-playing? Do you really think that such antiquated thinking fits in with the aims of this forum?

 

[Gimpy]

Some friendly advice: Don't ever talk about these types of insecurities with your girlfriend. This kind of weakness (if excessive) is a huge turn off. Women are attracted to safety / security for the large part. 9/10 marry up for those exact reasons.

I haven't heard this kind of 'advice' since jr high school.

It sounds like a great example of the juvenile dictionary in action.

 

[RedFox]

Hi cv

Some friendly advice: Don't ever talk about these types of insecurities with your girlfriend. This kind of weakness (if excessive) is a huge turn off. Women are attracted to safety / security for the large part. 9/10 marry up for those exact reasons.

fwiw anart is pretty spot on, the reason I didn't wake my girlfriend up at 4am because of the highly emotional dream was because of external considering. Early morning/sleepiness combined with my emotions running away with me made for a situation which could have developed into feeding or any kind of negative program.
In the end I spoke to her about the dream in the morning when she had woken up enough and I had calmed down enough :)
She certainly didn't see it as a weakness, and neither do I. Infact we both laughed at the absurdity of the dream. I got to the bottom of the meaning of it through contemplation and posting here.
The relationship with my girlfriend has been built by both of us based on open communication about pretty much everything (external considering has helped fine tune this no end). Neither of us has spoken to anyone else in our lives as much as we talk to each other daily, which has made us both more communicative to others too. :)

Your advice does seem to suggest a view of male emotions/insecurities as being a sign of weakness, let alone missing the meaning of the dream and the reason for my post. It also suggests that you also have the equally close minded view that women are only attracted to 'strong' (i.e. emotionally dead) men.
This is quite a pathological view of things, and although may be a view held in some parts of society is not representative of what constitutes a healthy relationship. Perhaps it would be useful to you to try and work out where you got those views from?

Women are attracted to safety / security for the large part. 9/10 marry up for those exact reasons.

Would these be neanderthal women?

I now have an image of Captin Caveman in my head!

Eliminating the victim mindset is like lifting a ton of bricks off your shoulders and suddenly creates this incredible (almost invincible) person that can accomplish almost anything.

Sounds like a buffer, which is ultimately anything but helpful.

And this was one of the reasons for my post, tuning my perceptions to help me learn how to challenge the thinking without adding to my buffers, to check that I hadn't added any. Maybe you can see the distinction by rereading the thread?
If it can be removed without adding buffers, then yes it is liberating. But it is tricky and an ongoing thing. It doesn't remove the negative thoughts just teaches you not to identify with them, along with the negative emotions. Infact its actually had an interesting effect when it comes to feeling 'invincible' I actually feel far more vulnerable in objective way, my victim mindset kept me from many things including facing my own mortality in a healthy way.