Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

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Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I feel bad for you since it seems you feel like you wasted so much time and energy.]I feel bad for you since it seems you feel like you wasted so much time and energy.

I was kid when I started and didn't have smarter things to do, it wasn't all waste of energy, it was a good lesson because the ultimate courage is absolute vulnerability. Few people could know to defend themselves in situations when 5 guys attack you but it's always better to run and fight only if you need, only thing that hurts is your ego. In karate kyokushinkai they teach you about modesty, they meditate, they tell you that when you got into situation tell other men that he is a stronger to avoid fight, they say be modest but keep your head always up, this is philosophy that is very good in my opinion and it's a rare martial art that deals in that way. After I quit I did bag punching and kick boxing but only thing I needed to do is to make my kicks stronger, and now I think that the situation would be different. I'am working on my fear and when it comes I don't identify with him, with my mind, it's all about mind. Now I'am more free in everything and can tell from experience that spiritual work advances everything you do. That is the most important thing-to have control over self.

There is no equivalent for Krav maga unles you know a language that copied all of the most brute force tactics from like 5 or 6 other languages, dumbed them down to work for a group of thugs who are only interested in a bloody body count. As a self defense style krav maga is the most psychopathic, and from what I have seen, not very effective unless you are fast and strong already. I have seen some of the crap they teach and it would only work if you were getting raped by someone representing the lowest end of the IQ measuring system.

I think that this is a subjective view because I know some guys that use Krav Maga and it helped them, they say teacher is calm, everybody is ok, if someone is hit they stop, help him, and it was useful for real because one was attacked in park and he did defend himself, it depends from club to club, from teacher to teacher. You say it's psycho but when you get in that situation you would do everything that is necessary to defend yourself, you wouldn't actually kiss the man who would attack you, would you?

I think balance is important also.

I agree, it's good to practice for a change because of all that reading and sitting you need to do something else, this is what i realized because if you are doing something to much and you force it you lose your will. It's always good to take a break and do something else although I think the knowledge needs to be in first place. ;)
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Masamune said:
Tai Chi was good but I am wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a better form of martial art.


Hi Masamune. I understand about the neck issue. I have a slightly twisted vertebrae at the top of my spine that causes a slight lack of proportion to my trapezius muscles. I have to be very careful because it's easy to cause a sprain.

I have a paperbook book on Tai-Chi that I wanted to learn, but I need an instructor to help guide me to proper form before practicing on my own. I see that you have had such personal instruction and I know that the art can be as simple and easy or as complicated and time-consuming as you want it to be. It is a gentle art that also help externalize attention by teaching focus, and it can be done alone.

Just out of curiosity, how would something else be 'better' for you in your situation?
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Even though it's best known for it's health benefits, Tai Chi can be a deadly combat art. Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to find a teacher who understands the high level combat principles of Tai Chi, and many who do are unwilling to teach that information. This (obviously) can make developing the advanced combat skills of Tai Chi very difficult. The way I see the Dim Mak aspect of the art is that of being close to useless in an actual fight. Unless you have the skill to strike a very precise target on a moving body in a combat situation and somehow know where exactly to strike (after factoring in the variance of these multiple locations from person to person) then you can see how challenging it is. Not that it can't cause serious physical and energetic damage... it can. I mean you're basically striking acupuncture points, the only difference being the intent - harm or heal.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Hi Buddy
I've always had a fascination/respect with the sticky hands technique ever since I'd heard reports about reading the pulse and flow of an opponent, quite literally.

It's like you said, difficult finding a a teacher (depending on your location) but it's definitely an art I want to explore especially as it is a close-quarter system and potentially one of the most effective/dangerous. I know it's a highly aggressive art yet I can't help but admire the focus on centerline attacks, using no wasted effort. I'm kinda interested to know what sort of sensitivity you developed when practicing Chi Sao, could you predict your opponent sense what's next etc?

Right I'm focusing BJJ and Systema and the BJJ, although very effective on the ground, is not something I'd completely depend on, some purists would say otherwise. I do enjoy the cardio benefits as it's excellent workout and very technical.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

although i don't know much of anything about martial arts, i thought i'd chime in with a thought.

As a self defense style krav maga is the most psychopathic, and from what I have seen, not very effective unless you are fast and strong already. I have seen some of the crap they teach and it would only work if you were getting raped by someone representing the lowest end of the IQ measuring system.

i've noticed that a lot of people (from my country at least) are practicing martial arts with no particular aim, or you have people who think that karate will help them beat people up or something. i've noticed that (pertaining to quote above) through passive observation, it seems a lot of martial arts wouldn't help you defend yourself unless you are fighting a complete idiot, with no disrespect to practicioners of martial arts. it seems that to me, one limiting factor about martial arts is the knowledge level, and how much you practice, but that is true of anything. just because i know that i can kill a man by punching him in the nose at a certain angle doesn't mean i'm gonna get it right the first time. plus, it seems like some martial arts schools boil everything down to be so simple that you walk out with a black belt before the year is up, and that's ridiculous. i've had friends before who've taken martial arts and it's funny, they either aren't in the mental condition to take it seriously, or they couldn't demonstrate anything for you at all. of course i couldnt really do better. i'm not being cynical or anything, that's just some things i've noticed (though as usual, could be wrong, like i said, i don't know anything about martial arts) and what's that about reading pulse and flow? seems interesting
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Le Rhino said:
I'm kinda interested to know what sort of sensitivity you developed when practicing Chi Sao, could you predict your opponent sense what's next etc?

Hi Le Rhino. The only practice partners I've had was an advanced student I met in the Navy, who needed a partner and so agreed to participate with me. Practice was irregular and not always long enough.

I was told that I had natural sensitivity and could be good at it, but that I needed to do the Chi Sao with a partner until all the moves were 'grooved in' and I would have a kind of 'sympathetic rapport'. At that point, I was supposed to be able to defocus my eyes a bit and let the other person's body provide the impulse for my own reaction.

It made sense. The spine is considered the pivot point or swing for yin and yang energy and once you can feel that, you will feel when a movement is too much and will know how to conserve motion automatically...or something like that.

When he moved on, I tried to encourage other friends to take it up, but they weren't interested, so I wound up practicing mostly on a beat-up PVC mook jong (Muk Yan Jong). That can give a good workout (assuming you can find or make one) but is not nearly as satisfying.

I always have my eyes open for an opportunity to take it back up though.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Masamune said:
I am interested in getting back into it but I have serious health problems. I am wondering can anyone on the forum recommend an internal martial art that could be practiced by someone with health issues? For example, no quick movements or jerking of the limbs, just a fluid martial art? Tai Chi was good but I am wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a better form of martial art.

Hi Masamune,
as Buddy pointed out, I am also curious on what you would be looking for in "a better form of martial art". Would it be in regards to your neck?

I have a very limited knowledge about most forms of martial arts, except for Tai Chi and Chi Qong (the latter is not really a martial art, but oh well..)
From these two, Chi Qong is probably the safest, just because almost any Chi Qong class should be able to reach all types of people. Classes are in general very gentle, but if well done, with enhanced health benefits. They work from the Chinese Medicine perspective that all major organs are linked to meridians, and exercises are done accordingly, I am not an expert in Chinese Medicine, but I do know that the practice has made me stronger and my breathing capacity has improved. The meditative quality of the movement helps me to focus.

Tai Chi can be very safe, or not. Depends on the class and depends on the teacher, more then the style itself. Some classes have an enhanced martial arts focus, some classes have an health benefit focus, some classes have a Chinese philosophy focus, some have their focus on Chinese medicine. If you try a few different ones you might find which should best suit your needs.

As I have mentioned I don't know a lot of the other martial arts forms, but most seem to bear some sort of impact and higher risk, that is why I mentioned Chi Qong and Tai Chi. Although you have practiced Tai Chi in the past, trying a new teacher can be very refreshing, classes really differ, as much as one person varies from the other. You might have done it for years, come to a new class and discover a whole new way of doing it. Sometimes, what we gain from the practice really is up to the ability of teacher on being able to convey the information you need.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Masamune said:
Tai Chi was good but I am wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a better form of martial art.

Buddy said:
I have a paperbook book on Tai-Chi that I wanted to learn, but I need an instructor to help guide me to proper form before practicing on my own. I see that you have had such personal instruction and I know that the art can be as simple and easy or as complicated and time-consuming as you want it to be. It is a gentle art that also help externalize attention by teaching focus, and it can be done alone.

Just out of curiosity, how would something else be 'better' for you in your situation?

Hi Buddy and Gertrudes, what I meant by the above statement is that I liked Yang style Tai Chi and I was able to do it but I was asking for an opinion from the forum if they knew of any other types of martial arts that might be better for someone in my situation. I did not mention this in the previous post but I have a serious neurological disorder called chiari malformation and it could potentially be very harmful to me if I participated in a full contact martial art. I do not know what the members of this forum would think of this form of Tai Chi or even if it was a worthwhile form to study.

I do not know much about martial arts but I would be looking for the most authentic form of the martial art with the best teacher available. I guess at this point I would possibly be interested in a form that would be most beneficial to my health, as in getting my energy flowing, but also possibly teach me some self defense. In the area that I live I have not been able to find another school teaching this form and was wondering what other options others would recommend.

As for Chi Qong, I have serious breathing difficulties so I would be unable to do this activity. :(
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

dannybananny said:
I think that this is a subjective view because I know some guys that use Krav Maga and it helped them, they say teacher is calm, everybody is ok, if someone is hit they stop, help him, and it was useful for real because one was attacked in park and he did defend himself, it depends from club to club, from teacher to teacher. You say it's psycho but when you get in that situation you would do everything that is necessary to defend yourself, you wouldn't actually kiss the man who would attack you, would you?

In a practical self defense situation one has to do what is necessary to defend oneself. But the martial art philosophy and the level of training would determine what "necessary" is. Arts like Systema and Aikido have a basic philosophy to defend oneself while causing minimum permanent damage to the attackers. This requires not only a high level of martial training but also a high level of mental development. Some martial arts may have a set of brutal moves to cause serious damage to the attacker and get out of the situation. Looking at a martial art philosophy and also the basic strategic doctrine may help to clarify some of these basic issues. The ability to defend oneself while causing minimal damage to the attacker is something worth striving for imo.

Buddy said:
At that point, I was supposed to be able to defocus my eyes a bit and let the other person's body provide the impulse for my own reaction.

This defocusing of the eyes is probably called eagle vision. I have found that when the eyes are defocused a lot more information can enter. For example I can see many more movements within my field of vision with the eyes defocused - eg when I am stopped at a traffic light and defocus my eyes, not only can I sense the light changing without directly looking at it but also a lot of movements which I would not be aware of previously like a bird flying, people walking on the sidewalks etc. It seems that in general defocusing eyes is a good way to detect small movements as well as becoming more aware of the surroundings which come in handy in martial arts as well.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Hi Masamune,

If you are in the NYC area, I recommend Master Chu. Years ago my health was completely restored under his instruction of the tai chi form and Nei Kung.

If you are not in the vicinity, one of his students may be available to you.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

MC said:
Hi Masamune,

If you are in the NYC area, I recommend Master Chu. Years ago my health was completely restored under his instruction of the tai chi form and Nei Kung.

If you are not in the vicinity, one of his students may be available to you.

Hi MC, what exactly did Master Chu teach you? For example what forms did you learn, did you learn push hands, weapon training, etc.?

Also if you don't mind telling, what health issues were resolved for you with the practice of Tai Chi and Nei Kung?
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Based on everyones positive thought on System I've decided to try it out. The YouTube clips I've seen are also very promising. There's a new Systema group here in KL, and a seminar in December, so it'll be interesting to see how it works. From my point of view the most important things I'm looking for are non-anticipation, relaxation of body, breathing, and then knife defense (in KL almost all robberies are with knife or machete). That is, apart from the general Work-oriented things, like how to deal and communicate with people.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

[QUOTE author=Masamune]Hi MC, what exactly did Master Chu teach you? For example what forms did you learn, did you learn push hands, weapon training, etc.?

Also if you don't mind telling, what health issues were resolved for you with the practice of Tai Chi and Nei Kung?[/QUOTE]

Although I initially intended to study Tai chi as a martial art, I was unable to stay long enough to do so for lack of funds.

When I first moved to NYC from the Great Lakes, I had no more than a thousand dollars and a music degree. Responsibility as a husband required earning a living outside my training as a musician. At the time, the workforce had only started to rely on using PCs. Rudimentary skills with spreadsheets provided me entry into Corporate America (no one knew any better then) and by secretly teaching myself while on the jobs I had, I eventually was hired on the trading floor as assistant to the financier of the Gov't Bonds Department of one of the top Primary Dealers.

The stress level of this milieu is difficult to understand without actually experiencing it (somewhat accurately portrayed in the movie Wall Street starring Michael Douglas and Tom Cruise.) Needless to say, competition was fierce on all levels, and a matter of course. Rarely was anything said without challenging one's ego, mostly by an insult requiring a comeback, an interplay in which I neither wanted nor was able to participate.

It was made clear to me that no time off would be granted for musical pursuits, there was no opportunity for advancement, I should be grateful for even having a job, and handed an overwhelming workload. This all came from people who commented on a the news of homeless people being dowsed with gasoline and ignited that "they deserved it because they didn't have a job."

At the same time I was rehearsing four evenings a week, studying with two coaches on Saturday afternoon, performing Saturday evenings and Sunday matinees, as well as holding a church gig on Sunday morning - every week, for a number of years.

I began to die. I lost nearly all physical, mental, and emotional energy. I suffered a weak immune system, chronic knee problems, back pain severe enough to completely immobilize me, insomnia, depression, irritability, unbearable irrational, vexing thought loops. All spiritual pursuits until then were unhelpful. I was aware however, that my life was unacceptable and something had to be done - I wasn't comfortable with "throwing in the towel."

I quit my job and singing at the outrage of wife and family, and decided to give Tai Chi a try (Taoism was attractive to me since early adulthood.) While studying the form, Master Chu encouraged me to take his Nei Kung workshop. I remember him gently pressing my left side at the kidney for no apparent reason one evening, and having a most peculiar dream that night. The next day there was a subtle balance and I felt better.

Because of the fact that I had to end my instruction, I'm grateful to have learned Nei Kung which through diligent practice literally reversed my age, making me stronger and healthier than ever before. I should say however, that while improving health, ultimate existential issues were not met; after a long time, gradual decrease of practice and the concerns of life led to me virtually abandoning the practice. Some things still remain in my inventory.

Master Chu teaches full Tai Chi martial art, including stick-fighting, broad sword, and double edge sword. Before the NY banning of full contact competition, some of his students were champions.

Apologies for the wordy reply. My condition wasn't of a few isolated issues, it was systemic, so I felt an explanation was necessary.
 
Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

My Systema instructor posted a very interesting article on neurological reaction time and learning. I thought it was so interesting that I wanted to share it here:

Dr Andrea Bisaz said:
Systema, Neurological Reaction Time and Learning.
A major factor in fighting arts is the speed of response to a given attack. As we know this is dependant on many different factors. Timely action is crucial for a positive outcome with an adversary.

Different fighting disciplines have implemented various strategies in order to gain a time advantage over their opponent.

A common approach by many professionals such as SWAT Teams, Special Forces etc. is to use just a hand full of very generic applicable techniques based on gross motor skills. The idea behind this approach is:

• One, to decrease decision time of the mind, thus to shorten your reaction time (response time) to a given attack.

• Two, the gross motor skills allow people to still perform under duress.

Whilst the response in our brain to physical attack is very complex and varied, there is an intriguing aspect, which I would like to discuss. It is important in understanding the response time of the subconscious approach (Systema) as opposed to the conscious choice approach mentioned above.

It is relatively unknown that when our brain prepares for a movement, for example in response to an attack on our person, it will always do a dry-run first, without activating our muscle and without our conscious awareness. This means the brain has an emulator. Before we become aware of our intended movement, our brain will dry-run the movement through its brain maps. This will include hormonal activation, blood pressure changes and all the usual psycho-physiological adaptations. The only thing which is missing is the activation of our muscles (and our awareness). Only following this dry-run will our intended movement become conscious and we will perform this action with our muscles activated. To our conscious minds this movement appears spontaneous and original, as we are not aware that in actual fact we have already done it in our brains.

Now here is the difference: if movement is directed by our subconscious mind or as we call it, if movement happens spontaneously, then our conscious response will be the second run through by the brain. However in the example of conscious mind control (SWAT team, Special Forces…), if a technique selection is required, then the brain will repeat the dry-run with the chosen technique, before activating the muscles in a third run through. Whilst a small selection number (of technique choices) decreases selection time, it still remains the third fully performed run through by the brain when applying a conscious mind approach. Systema however relies on a subconscious response, meaning that we can act on the second performed run through. Whilst this advantage represents only a fraction of a second, it is nevertheless very significant.

This however is not the whole story. Where do the brain’s initial ideas for the subconscious response originate? Neurologists refer to these sudden reaction movements as Fixed Action Patterns (FAPs). A FAP is a chosen system by natural selection for a reduction of choice and decision time. In other words, through past experiences the body has learned to react in a certain way under certain circumstances (Trigger Event), and in order to reduce reaction time a quick “movement package” is applied in a coordinated fashion whenever needed, without the brain having to repeatedly invent the wheel again. These patterns are very deeply rooted in our response system. They can range from very simple withdrawal actions to complex movement patterns. That doesn’t however make them the best or most efficient choice under any given circumstance.

Let me give you an example: if you touch a hot object you will withdraw your hand immediately in a FAP, nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, if someone grabs your finger in a finger lock this same FAP will be activated putting you in a much worse situation as you have just increased pressure on your finger lock. How then can we change this situation and how can we change FAPs or any other rapid reaction movement?

The answer is training.

Training has the ability to override current FAPs.

Lets look at this a bit closer. The brain has many body maps spread throughout its different areas. The most basic (and famous) are the primary motor and sensory maps also referred to as homunculi. These body maps interact in hierarchical fashion from lower- to higher-grade maps. Information from the body enters the primary sensory map and then rises through complex processing and constant reassessing procedures up to layers of higher maps. The higher up they travel the more information gets incorporated in the processing of an action such as emotions, memories, body images, beliefs, pain patterns etc etc. On the way up information gets constantly fed down the chain again for reassessment and confirmation with new sensory information just entered. Eventually appropriate action is decided on and emulated, then fed down through the hierarchy and all the way to the primary motor maps, from which muscles are activated and conscious movement arises. Lets bare in mind that these complex procedures and interactions take but split seconds to occur. We also can see that no matter how much we try, every action has an emotional association attached. We might not be consciously aware of it but it is unavoidable!

Through regular training we can teach our body to behave with chosen patterned responses to particular situations. The interesting point here is that we can learn specific patterns (techniques) or we can teach our body principled responses such as relaxed generalised movement patterns. The difference being that we allow our bodies to come up with its own solutions to problems as long as it adheres to chosen principles such as relaxed, efficient, natural movements as in the case of Systema. In order to allow for this wide range of body applications we have to understand that the nervous system works via what we call facilitation. In simple terms this means; the more we use an action the more likely the same action will be chosen the next time. Now if we use a mirror action over and over again we will eventually reinforce this action in a specific way as a FAP to be used by what’s deemed as relevant situations (Trigger Event). However if we continually vary the specific movements, whilst keeping the modus operandi more constant, this being a calm, relaxed way of movement, then the quality of this habit will start to instill itself as a FAP response without a specific hyper-facilitated movement pattern attached. The brain will then pair up it’s own choice of movement pattern, which it regards as most appropriate. It will draw from familiar movement patterns that have been trained, however more ‘freedom’ exists, which will be advantageous in adapting precisely to individual situations.

Once the initial subconscious response has taken place we can include a consciously directed action if necessary, as we can perform it concurrently with the already happening responses, thus we don’t suffer an apparent time delay. In simple terms the brain is multitasking (although strictly speaking due to the on/off nature of the nervous system it is actually an alternating action).

A subconscious approach requires a certain level of faith, as we teach ourselves principles, hoping that the best response will be chosen subconsciously at a time of need. It is a very different approach to training specific names and techniques for specific situations. An advantage of the ‘principle approach’ versus the ‘technique approach’ is that the brain does not get bored through endless repetitions of the same movements, as every movement is slightly different and somehow novel. Once the principles have established themselves though a marvelous thing occurs: Instead of a limited set of technique responses, we now have an unlimited array of ‘principle responses’ available. We have trained our bodies to come up with its own creative solutions to a given situation. Of course the body will always develop its favorite idiosyncrasies, largely due to neurological facilitation, individual body parameters and individual abilities.

It is also very important to mention that RELAXATION is absolutely imperative in order to work subconsciously. When afflicted by tension (fear, aggression etc) our brains will lose their ability to be creative, to multitask and eventually to function efficiently altogether. Much has been written about the debilitating effects of tension on our performance, especially in the flight-fight situation. It is not the purpose of this article to discuss this, but I simply would like to stress that it is crucial to instill a relaxed manner of working, if we want work efficiently subconsciously.

It is also important when training for conflict situations to incorporated regular human-to-human interaction with significant contact such as strikes, aggressive behavior and the like. This will assist in providing proper trigger events and help in reconditioning specific ‘approach and avoidance behaviours’ already present in FAPs. If done properly, it will also assist in reducing fear and pain based tension.

An additional interesting point is that research has shown slow training of complex movements to significantly shorten the learning time required for those movements…sounds familiar?

Now the more we train the lower down on the brain-map-hierarchy we move the processing. This means that after many years of training our principled responses can be processed mostly in our primary motor maps. At this point we have made the system our own and we will instinctively and spontaneously respond with FAPs according to our training. In other words our subconscious mind will now start to respond spontaneously to attacks in a smooth, creative and intelligent way just like in training, instead of in a rushed, abrupt and tense fashion. With appropriate training we will also be able to work with much less emotional involvement and less disruptive fear based tension.

Obviously technique based training can override the spontaneous FAP response too, however if we continue to involve our conscious mind for technique choices we will still react with the third brain run through only. Alternatively if Systema practitioners miss this point of subconscious action either through faulty training or lack of faith/trust, then they too will respond to the third run through only. This is particularly apparent in new students and will only change after considerable training.

As mentioned, it is very acceptable, even advisable to use conscious decisions during a physical conflict but the trick is not to initiate with a conscious action if spontaneously challenged. Rather intermingle it sparingly amongst plenty of subconscious work. This will minimise interference and allow your work to be fast, fluid and natural, whilst still maintaining some conscious strategic control.

As simple as this all may sounds and as easy and natural as a competent Systema practitioner can look in motion, this is actually very difficult to achieve. Difficult inasmuch as it takes dedication and years of mindful training in order to acquire this natural and efficient subconscious/conscious response process when under attack or duress. A good dose of playfulness, dedication and faith can make this journey however spectacularly joyful and satisfying. Not to mention the insight into our persona and our emotions, which we can gain through introspection and through feeling during training.

_http://www.rmasystema-australia.com/topics-of-interest
 
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