Water fluoridation insanity in Québec

[Buddy]

...I didn't see anything described above that isn't happening on a massive, global scale. Maybe, however, there are some troublesome, vocal "holdouts" in Quebec that need to be taught a lesson?

I agree with you. I wonder what the "professional complainers" and the rest of the public in Quebec would do if they found out that Dr Horacio Arruda & co. thinks of them as "noisy monkeys" that need to be quietened down with fluoride to make them and everyone else more docile? I wouldn't know what Arruda or anyone else thinks, of course, but if that is the case it wouldn't surprise me. It might trigger some righteous anger, though.

 

[United Gnosis]

...I didn't see anything described above that isn't happening on a massive, global scale. Maybe, however, there are some troublesome, vocal "holdouts" in Quebec that need to be taught a lesson?

I agree with you. I wonder what the "professional complainers" and the rest of the public in Quebec would do if they found out that Dr Horacio Arruda & co. thinks of them as "noisy monkeys" that need to be quietened down with fluoride to make them and everyone else more docile? I wouldn't know what Arruda or anyone else thinks, of course, but if that is the case it wouldn't surprise me. It might trigger some righteous anger, though.

Yes... this is generally the culturally-relevant approach I take when I feel some info deserves to be shared, i.e. stuff that does not break my strategic enclosure (which is more specifically focused on Work aspects). I always make sure to poke my separatist friends with stuff like "If sovereignty is so important to you, why doesn't bureaucrats injecting unasked-for chemicals in your drinking water anger you?"

On a similar note, here in Costa Rica salt is fluoridated by law. It's a great way to ensure that everyone gets dosed without ever thinking about it. Imported sea salt, kosher salt/etc is even technically illegal if it was not treated with fluoride! Fortunately, it is still relatively easy to find unadulteraded pink himalayan salt. That also means you can never eat out except in intentional communities that are diet-aware, but for someone following a paleo- or keto- diet this barely adds any restriction.

Maybe there are lessons to learn about Costa Rica? Stockpile a few kilos of uncrushed pink himalayan salt, a great investment for the future!

 

[Rose]

...I didn't see anything described above that isn't happening on a massive, global scale. Maybe, however, there are some troublesome, vocal "holdouts" in Quebec that need to be taught a lesson?

I agree with you. I wonder what the "professional complainers" and the rest of the public in Quebec would do if they found out that Dr Horacio Arruda & co. thinks of them as "noisy monkeys" that need to be quietened down with fluoride to make them and everyone else more docile? I wouldn't know what Arruda or anyone else thinks, of course, but if that is the case it wouldn't surprise me. It might trigger some righteous anger, though.

My first impression when I read about this is that they're probably trying to dumb the people down and make them more docile in order to avoid having to deal with another printemps érable. Some righteous anger would be nice, but somehow, I don't think it's going to happen. The Québécois do love to complain about everything, but in general, they rarely do anything about it.

 

[Buddy]

My first impression when I read about this is that they're probably trying to dumb the people down and make them more docile in order to avoid having to deal with another printemps érable. Some righteous anger would be nice, but somehow, I don't think it's going to happen. The Québécois do love to complain about everything, but in general, they rarely do anything about it.

And so it goes. This was my first impression as well, so thanks for mentioning it.

At least there seem to be people who care. To my way of thinking, that old argument that asks: "what can be done when people understand the problems but just don't care?" is invalid. If you don't care, you tend to not see a problem in the first place. You don't notice problems until you do care. And sometimes people can care so much, it drives them neurotic. So, there's that, which then naturally leads to the question "what to do?"

Can there be people who care and who intellectually understand the problems and yet for some reason they are frozen in place, too rigid to do anything personally effective? I think so and I think that sometimes it's due to insisting on understanding everything within a preferred intellectual framework.

Maybe for some people all that is needed is to reformulate the problem and solution into a simple metaphor so that the experiential mind can grasp it? The one I'm thinking of was mentioned in Pirsig's ZAMM. UG has elsewhere implied he has read the book, so he'll probably remember it.

The Monkey and the Rice

...the most striking example of value rigidity I can think of is the old South Indian Monkey Trap, which depends on value rigidity for its effectiveness. The trap consists of a hollowed-out coconut chained to a stake. The coconut has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole. The hole is big enough so that the monkey's hand can go in, but too small for his fist with rice in it to come out. The monkey reaches in and is suddenly trapped...by nothing more than his own value rigidity. He can't revalue the rice. He cannot see that freedom without rice is more valuable than capture with it.

The villagers are coming to get him and take him away. They're coming closer -- closer! -- now!

What should the monkey do to gain his freedom and avoid being permanently captured? Well, assuming the rice represents government services and benefits and "protections" of every kind and type, the answer is still the same. Look over your recent life and ask yourself if the things you think are important are really so important after all. Ask yourself...is the rice more important than my freedom or sovereignty? Do we really need the rice-providing "elite"? Can I let go of everything the government offers and depend only on myself and my resources to survive? Heck, with all the info on this forum... why not?

I'm not suggesting that there never could be a form of government that could provide services we could depend on, but I am suggesting current political frameworks are corrupt through and through. If people want central governments, they should probably start all over from scratch with an all new recipe.

Also, I see interesting connections between this example and this post.


My 2 cents.

 

[MoonGlow]

This is the first I've seen about fluoridation on the forum, so I thought I'd weigh in, even if this isn't specifically about the troubles in Quebec.

There seems to be a "Sam's Club" approach to nutrition in the Western world. That is to say, if one of something is good, fifty of something must be better.

A comparison of small, isolated villages conducted one hundred years ago once revealed that places with an abundance of fluoride naturally occurring in the groundwater tended to have lower incidence of cavities. There were no known cases of over-fluoridation at the time that study was made.

The trouble with too much fluoride is that it crowds out the calcium in teeth and other bones, and stunts new growth. Also, its ions rack up in the pituitary. It takes a whole lot of fluoride for these sorts of problems to emerge. But, we've had infrastructure in place for a long time to exaggerate our exposure.

Fluoride is one of those things that doesn't go away when introduced to the ecosystem. It builds up in our bodies and passes to those who feed on us, and has no natural means of leaving a body. In the states, we've been fluoridating since the 40s. The amount of fluoride in the affected ecosystems is growing all the time. If we stopped fluoridating now, it would take hundreds of years for the levels to return to normal.

 

[Nienna]

This is the first I've seen about fluoridation on the forum, so I thought I'd weigh in, even if this isn't specifically about the troubles in Quebec.

There's actually quite a bit on fluoride here on this forum. Putting the word fluoride in the search function at the top right corner of the page, and making sure it is for the "entire forum" will bring up a lot of hits which shows what has been found about poisonous fluoride.

 

[mcb]

...A comparison of small, isolated villages conducted one hundred years ago once revealed that places with an abundance of fluoride naturally occurring in the groundwater tended to have lower incidence of cavities. There were no known cases of over-fluoridation at the time that study was made...

The problem is that any reasoning that says the lower incidence of cavities was caused by the fluoride is not valid. Often, the bad logic is applied by someone other than the researchers, to pursue an agenda, and sometimes the original data is cherry picked to even establish the observation in the first place.

If you have a specific citation, we could look more closely at what was done, but groundwater fluoride tends to be associated with disease, not health, from what I know. I was born in the high-fluoride belt of the southwest US, and my parents had to buy bottled drinking water until they moved away from there (when I was two).

 

[MoonGlow]

...A comparison of small, isolated villages conducted one hundred years ago once revealed that places with an abundance of fluoride naturally occurring in the groundwater tended to have lower incidence of cavities. There were no known cases of over-fluoridation at the time that study was made...

The problem is that any reasoning that says the lower incidence of cavities was caused by the fluoride is not valid. Often, the bad logic is applied by someone other than the researchers, to pursue an agenda, and sometimes the original data is cherry picked to even establish the observation in the first place.

If you have a specific citation, we could look more closely at what was done, but groundwater fluoride tends to be associated with disease, not health, from what I know. I was born in the high-fluoride belt of the southwest US, and my parents had to buy bottled drinking water until they moved away from there (when I was two).

Problematically (need I say, "flying in the face of the scientific method"), such research is not reproducible in modern times. The problem is that there is way more fluoride in our groundwater and everywhere else, such that it is impossible to conduct studies on whether just a little bit more fluoride than occurs naturally might be a good thing. This is because fluoridation programs have robbed us of any natural conditions to work with.

As it stands, current fluoride levels are almost certainly a bad thing, and something we are powerless to reverse. If we stopped fluoridating today, it would take an estimated three hundred years for fluoride levels to return to natural.

 

[mcb]

Natural groundwater fluoride does not derive from industrial waste from fertilizer production, as the kind being added to drinking water does. The common denominator is fluorine itself and its compounds, which are extremely toxic. It is pretty clear they can kill dental bacteria the way they kill anything else (although fluoride compounds appear to weaken teeth, not strengthen them -- hence the bottled water) but it is not at all clear that dental bacteria are in any way the "cause" of tooth decay.

I would say that all in all, fluoridation is a tangled mess on a global scale that smells of corporate malfeasance (which could translate to 4D STS influences).

 

[Buddy]

The problem is that any reasoning that says the lower incidence of cavities was caused by the fluoride is not valid. Often, the bad logic is applied by someone other than the researchers, to pursue an agenda, and sometimes the original data is cherry picked to even establish the observation in the first place.

If you have a specific citation, we could look more closely at what was done, but groundwater fluoride tends to be associated with disease, not health, from what I know.

I agree and besides, to MoonGlow: the picture any researcher presents of the "small, isolated villages" could be broadened to include other information, like quantity of sugars in the diet, amounts of fats...everything...the whole picture of life, otherwise how do we know the fluoride-cavity link is not simply a non-sequiter (it does not follow) reasoning?

 

[Mal7]

As it stands, current fluoride levels are almost certainly a bad thing, and something we are powerless to reverse. If we stopped fluoridating today, it would take an estimated three hundred years for fluoride levels to return to natural.

Just because something is found in the natural environment, it doesn't mean it is safe. Mercury and arsenic are also naturally occuring compounds. Death-cap mushrooms are as natural as field mushrooms.

There is no one level at which fluoride occurs naturally. Some parts of the world have unsafe natural levels of fluoride, and the populations are trying to find cost-effective ways of reducing the amount of fluoride in their water supply to make it safer to drink. In other parts of the world, the natural levels are about a tenth of the level found in water that has been artificially fluoridated (usually done at around 1 part per million, which may not sound like much, but it like adding a cubic centimetre of a very toxic substance to 1 cubic metre of water).

Dangerous levels of fluoride are also released naturally in the ash clouds from volcanic eruptions, and cause harm to the surrounding agriculture and water supplies.

Also there is no one level of fluoride that is safe for everybody. While some people may not develop problems like chronic fatigue, lowered immune response, or impaired neurological functioning at the levels found in artificially fluoridated water, other people with greater sensitivities to fluoride will.

The evidence that fluoride actually reduces cavities is not particularly strong. Tooth decay rates have declined in many western cultures over the last generation, but they have declined at the same rate in areas that have never been fluoridated as in areas that have been (e.g. tooth decay is just as low in the city of Christchurch, New Zealand, which has never been fluoridated, as it is in other fluoridated cities in New Zealand). Some studies suggest there might be a slight decrease in cavities among children when fluoride is taken topically (e.g. in fluoridated toothpaste), but that there is no benefit to adult teeth of topical fluoride, and no benefit from ingesting or drinking fluoridated water for children or adults. (I wouldn't recommend fluoridated toothpaste for children either, as the harms still outweigh any small benefit.)

There are also studies showing that fluoridation leads to an increase in osteoporosis in older women, and an increase in rare bone cancers in young males.

 

[Deleted member 8431]

...I didn't see anything described above that isn't happening on a massive, global scale. Maybe, however, there are some troublesome, vocal "holdouts" in Quebec that need to be taught a lesson?

I agree with you. I wonder what the "professional complainers" and the rest of the public in Quebec would do if they found out that Dr Horacio Arruda & co. thinks of them as "noisy monkeys" that need to be quietened down with fluoride to make them and everyone else more docile? I wouldn't know what Arruda or anyone else thinks, of course, but if that is the case it wouldn't surprise me. It might trigger some righteous anger, though.

Good points. If they knew that, I'm pretty convinced that it would trigger some massive anger. But the thing is that like with pretty much anything else, people tend not to see any further that ''commercial interests''. Sure money is often a reason why things are done but what if there is a far more evil and sinister plan behind it? That is were people fail to investigate in general and tend to not believe that the PTB would be so evil (ie. psychopaths). For them, such things are just dumb 'conspiracy theories'.

So yes, professional complainers indeed. But as United Gnosis pointed out a few posts earlier, most people are stuck in statism. Many groups, people and organizations DO protest but are still stuck with the belief that the problem is solely that we have the 'wrong government'. They think that the solution lies in a ''good government'' and/or independence. Nothing else.

*Sigh* that's too bad. I have only met one person who agrees that we are ruled by psychopaths. The others tend to laugh at this thinking that they are at worst mere greedy human beings.

The problem is that there is way more fluoride in our groundwater and everywhere else, such that it is impossible to conduct studies on whether just a little bit more fluoride than occurs naturally might be a good thing.

Such studies could easily be done to some point, osit. There are groundwaters that only contain traces amount of fluoride. And more so, they could simply filter some H2O by reverse osmosis and then distribute part of it to some subjects while adding whatever small amount of fluoride is required to give to the other subjects to make a comparaison. But on the other hand, other factors would need to be considered such as diet and all the sources of pollution to which people are exposed. And perhaps more.

As it stands, current fluoride levels are almost certainly a bad thing, and something we are powerless to reverse.

Probably, yes, but the Truth is that we could at least purify contaminated water quite easily for human consumption. But of course, this won't happen. So better do it ourselves or simply buy the pure stuff.

Sad situation indeed. When the source of life becomes a source of sickness and health degradation, we know that we've got a major problem.

 

[loreta]

*Sigh* that's too bad. I have only met one person who agrees that we are ruled by psychopaths. The others tend to laugh at this thinking that they are at worst mere greedy human beings.

This is so true. I try to give insights to people around me about psychopathy but to not avail. They say: they are humans, after that. They are not perfect, they try... but can not. etc. Bla bla bla.

Why is so hard to see that they are psychopaths? Is it to scary? To scary to see that we are governed by people really, really mad? And that we live in an inferno?

Fluor, Aspartame, MSG, mammography, etc. all are insights that give us the clue that the PTB are completely sick and wanted our finality in big sufferance. They hate us. People are very afraid to see this, and that is why they refuse to listen, to see, to change.
And that's why there is no future for humanity.

 

[Deleted member 8431]

Why is so hard to see that they are psychopaths? Is it to scary? To scary to see that we are governed by people really, really mad? And that we live in an inferno?

Another problem is the general idea of a psychopath among the population in general. They think of a psychopath as being solely a mass-murderer, serial rapist, pedophile etc. While this is certainly often the case, they fail to understand that a psychopath isn't necessarily violent and that the most dangerous ones are those who are in the highest spheres of power because they basically go unnoticed and most importantly, they have no conscience.