What do you see?

[ana]

Hello Obyvatel,

The idea that it is practically quite difficult (or maybe impossible) to find the truth purely by individual efforts is not a prejudice or a braking system IMO. This is the motive force behind the impetus to network with a group which has the goal of finding the truth.

I do agree you need networking, you need to make great efforts, but is it impossible? if you think it is, Then where does this motive force behind the impetus to network with a group which has the goal of finding the truth. come from?

For clarification, what I wrote/meant was the concept that " finding the truth purely by individual efforts is quite difficult (or maybe impossible)" makes sense to me. When one recognizes this, the motivation to network with a group oriented towards the same goal is a natural consequence. If what I wrote was interpreted as "waking up is impossible" - that was not my intention.

Others make you great because they make you able to see things you are not able to see now, but you will only find the truth in yourself, inside you and reflected on the outside, and of these two you will make one.

Creating you own reality means dissociate, not see what you do not want to see and I am talking of total integration, non- duality.

Non-duality is perhaps not a property attainable to us in our present state. Non-duality may be an attribute of God or Prime Creator. Trying to put ourselves at the same level of God may be regarded as hubris. Here is a quote from T. Illion's Darkness Over Tibet - I would suggest reading this book in its entirety or looking at the following essay by Laura at
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/tibet.htm

From Darkness Over Tibet pg 69

....."Is it wrong to try to be good?"


"No, but it is wrong to try to be like God."

"But God is good. Trying to be like God leads to goodness."

"The creature must not overstep its limits by trying to be like God. If he does so, he acts like the angels who revolted against the Creator. There are two different types of impersonality - namely, Be-ing and Be- ness. The former is an attribute of the Creature, the latter an attribute of the Creator.
Be-ness is absolute impersonality where all division between the "I" and the "non-I" ceases. It is beyond the reach of the creature.

"What happens to a man who wants to attain this state?" asked Dolma.

"He commits the greatest and most deadly sin against the Creator."

FWIW

God is in all levels and degrees, God is everything and everything is God.
When you say (Trying to put ourselves at the same level of God may be regarded as hubris.)you forget you are in a degree of conciousness puting yourself in a God aspect, Are you being hubri for that?

Non-duality is an achievement for wich we need the emotion, the oneness is not comprehensible for reason or intellect, because it can not be reached through mental processes. That is why the bigest lessons about the truth are reflected in parables.
What if, the natural state of a non-pathological being is the non-duality.


STO, nothing remains hidden, so that nothing remains hidden, it is necessary the vision of non-duality.
It requires a full integration and acceptance of the opposites as own intrinsic parts.
STS, inability to "feel" oneness as they only see what they want to see, and the lack of superior emotion.

So the big difference is what do you see?

 

[Psalehesost]

God is in all levels and degrees, God is everything and everything is God.
When you say (Trying to put ourselves at the same level of God may be regarded as hubris.)you forget you are in a degree of conciousness puting yourself in a God aspect, Are you being hubri for that?

Non-duality is an achievement for wich we need the emotion, the oneness is not comprehensible for reason or intellect, because it can not be reached through mental processes. That is why the bigest lessons about the truth are reflected in parables.
What if, the natural state of a non-pathological being is the non-duality.


STO, nothing remains hidden, so that nothing remains hidden, it is necessary the vision of non-duality.
It requires a full integration and acceptance of the opposites as own intrinsic parts.
STS, inability to "feel" oneness as they only see what they want to see, and the lack of superior emotion.

So the big difference is what do you see?

"God" in this context, as far as I can see, is meant in the sense of the All.
You miss the distinction between the All and its parts. We are not at the level of the All. We cannot yet at this stage be at the level of the All. Therefore, trying to put oneself on a level with the All is not a constructive endeavor - and could be seen as hubris, which is a result of wishful thinking.

Non-duality is an achievement not of this level - and striving for it at this level is, as far as I understand, a dead end.

STO sees all, and as such it sees clearly the polarities of the cosmos, at every level wherein such polarities exist (6D and down) - and it is possible to see things of one's own level and below, which everything "above" remains fuzzy and illusory until such a level is reached; as such, what we can see clearly is polarity - duality - as it applies to 3D (we can also get a distorted inkling of what exists "above", but this glimpse changes nothing of what objectively IS at this level).

EDIT: According to the C's, a 4D-being perceives things and entities in terms of its own unity with all of them. There you do have a simultaneous perceiving of duality and non-duality. (the difference between STS and STO here, I'd think, is how the other-self and other-thing is perceived in relation to the self. a contractive perspective that results in an attitude of seeing oneself as the "highest", and everything else as playthings and/or food belonging to oneself - perhaps as part of a unity where the 4D STS-er imagines itself as the center around which all revolves - versus an expansive perspective where all is recognized as sovereign in itself and there is a perception of "unity in diversity", and the 4D STO-entity sees itself as part of the same whole - a greater whole. but of course, all I can do here is speculate)

 

[Al Today]

... which everything "above" remains fuzzy and illusory until such a level is reached; ...

If & when one does "graduate" to an upper level classroom, there will probably be more and new lessons to learn. My ole gramma told me:

[quote author=ole gramma] ... that the day you quit learnin', is the day you start dyin' ...[/quote]

 

[ana]

Hello Csayeursost :)

God is in all levels and degrees, God is everything and everything is God.
When you say (Trying to put ourselves at the same level of God may be regarded as hubris.)you forget you are in a degree of conciousness puting yourself in a God aspect, Are you being hubri for that?

Non-duality is an achievement for wich we need the emotion, the oneness is not comprehensible for reason or intellect, because it can not be reached through mental processes. That is why the bigest lessons about the truth are reflected in parables.
What if, the natural state of a non-pathological being is the non-duality.


STO, nothing remains hidden, so that nothing remains hidden, it is necessary the vision of non-duality.
It requires a full integration and acceptance of the opposites as own intrinsic parts.
STS, inability to "feel" oneness as they only see what they want to see, and the lack of superior emotion.

So the big difference is what do you see?

"God" in this context, as far as I can see, is meant in the sense of the All.
You miss the distinction between the All and its parts. We are not at the level of the All. We cannot yet at this stage be at the level of the All. Therefore, trying to put oneself on a level with the All is not a constructive endeavor - and could be seen as hubris, which is a result of wishful thinking.

Non-duality is an achievement not of this level - and striving for it at this level is, as far as I understand, a dead end.

STO sees all, and as such it sees clearly the polarities of the cosmos, at every level wherein such polarities exist (6D and down) - and it is possible to see things of one's own level and below, which everything "above" remains fuzzy and illusory until such a level is reached; as such, what we can see clearly is polarity - duality - as it applies to 3D (we can also get a distorted inkling of what exists "above", but this glimpse changes nothing of what objectively IS at this level).

EDIT: According to the C's, a 4D-being perceives things and entities in terms of its own unity with all of them. There you do have a simultaneous perceiving of duality and non-duality. (the difference between STS and STO here, I'd think, is how the other-self and other-thing is perceived in relation to the self. a contractive perspective that results in an attitude of seeing oneself as the "highest", and everything else as playthings and/or food belonging to oneself - perhaps as part of a unity where the 4D STS-er imagines itself as the center around which all revolves - versus an expansive perspective where all is recognized as sovereign in itself and there is a perception of "unity in diversity", and the 4D STO-entity sees itself as part of the same whole - a greater whole. but of course, all I can do here is speculate)

Sorry did not find the date of the transcript.

Q: (L) State of awareness?
A: Exactly. Now, when we go from the measuring system, which of course has been nicely formulated so that you can understand it, of density levels one through seven, the key concept, of course, is state of awareness. All the way through. So, once you rise to a higher state of awareness, such things as physical limitation evaporate. And, when they evaporate, vast distances, as you perceive them, become non-existent. So, just because you are unable to see and understand has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what is or is not possible. Except within your own level of density. And this is what almost no one on your current level of density is able to understand. If you can understand it and convey it to them, you will be performing the greatest service that your kind has ever seen. Think about that for a moment. Let it seep into your consciousness. Analyze it. Dissect it. Look at it carefully and then put it back together again.
Q: (L) What is it that limits our awareness?
A: Your environment. And it is the environment that you have chosen. By your level of progress. And that is what limits everything. As you rise to higher levels of density, limitations are removed.
Q: (L) What creates this environment of limitation?
A: It is the grand illusion which is there for the purpose of learning.
Q: (L) And who put the illusion into place?
A: The Creator who is also the Created. Which is also you and us and all. As we have told you, we are you and vice versa. And so is everything else.
Q: (L) Is the key that it is all illusion?
A: Basically, yes. As we have told you before, if you will be patient just a moment, the universe is merely a school. And, a school is there for all to learn. That is why everything exists. There is no other reason. Now, if only you understood the true depth of that statement, you would begin to start to see, and experience for yourself, all the levels of density that it is possible to experience, all the dimensions that it is possible to experience, all awareness. When an individual understands that statement to its greatest possible depth, that individual becomes illumined. And, certainly you have heard of that. And, for one moment, which lasts for all eternity, that individual knows absolutely everything that there is to know.

 

[anart]

Pryf, you've taken many of my comments and twisted them again in an attempt to make rather tenuous points that really bear little relation to what I was saying. I really don't have the time currently to go through it point by point, since the twists are such that it would take a lot of time and energy - neither of which I currently have. The most obvious question for you at this point is whether or not you have read the recommended psychological texts? Your misunderstanding of dissociation indicates that either you have not read them or you would benefit from reading them again. The main books I'm referring to are:

Myth of Sanity
Trapped in the Mirror
Unholy Hungers
The Narcissistic Family

Your YCYOR tendencies appear to be blinding you to the objective reality of the matter, and as your sacred cow, you appear to be clinging to these tendencies quite tightly. In short, you cannot think about the way you think with the way you think - so - are you interested in actually moving past that? If so, then the psychological reading is a great start - if not, then perhaps a more newage forum would be a better fit for you?

 

[obyvatel]

Hi Pryf,

Others make you great because they make you able to see things you are not able to see now, but you will only find the truth in yourself, inside you and reflected on the outside, and of these two you will make one.

I agree that my own attributes which are often hidden from me are reflected on the outside - in others - and thus through others I learn about my own self. But this does not mean to me that others are "me" at this present level. We are all perhaps "parts of a whole" and by learning about the different parts we get a more objective understanding of the "whole".

God is in all levels and degrees, God is everything and everything is God.
When you say (Trying to put ourselves at the same level of God may be regarded as hubris.)you forget you are in a degree of consciousness puting yourself in a God aspect, Are you being hubri for that?

I do not deny or forget that perhaps I am a part of God like everything else that exists. But being a part of something is not the same as being the "whole". IMO hubris lies in this mistaking a part (a minuscule/infinitely small part that is me) as the whole (which is God/existence).

STO, nothing remains hidden, so that nothing remains hidden, it is necessary the vision of non-duality.

I do not agree that STO=Nothing remains hidden = Non-duality. STO and STS both are parts of the whole.

It requires a full integration and acceptance of the opposites as own intrinsic parts.

To me being a STO candidate involves learning the lessons at this level of reality and that does involve the true acceptance of opposites as parts of the whole. I can only speculate that STO is one who recognizes that it is only a part of the whole and honors and appreciates all that is - including the STS. So I agree with the "acceptance" part of your statement quoted above but not the "integration" part.

STS, inability to "feel" oneness as they only see what they want to see, and the lack of superior emotion.

Or perhaps STS does try to "feel this oneness" and strives to make this "oneness" happen in their reality? Perhaps the STS does not see and appreciate the difference in manifest reality of which it is a part but instead tries to enforce this oneness by making everything within its power to conform to its own subjective idea of what this "oneness" should be like? And perhaps herein lies the hubris and what Illion in "Darkness Over Tibet" refers to quite dramatically as the "greatest and most deadly sin against the Creator"?

I am somewhat familiar with the oneness principle from the Hindu Advaita (translated as non-duality) philosophy. IMO the new age movement has latched onto this principle without a thorough study. And if they are asked to study this principle, perhaps the standard response is

Non-duality is an achievement for which we need the emotion, the oneness is not comprehensible for reason or intellect, because it can not be reached through mental processes.

My personal experience is that at a practical level, trying to feel this oneness through superior emotions leads to self-calming and a shutting out of the reality of life at this level. The oneness principle at a superficial level has great appeal precisely due to this self-calming effect - it lets a person sleep soundly while the house burns since ultimately it is all one and the fire is actually a illusion right - ;).

 

[ana]

Pryf, you've taken many of my comments and twisted them again in an attempt to make rather tenuous points that really bear little relation to what I was saying. I really don't have the time currently to go through it point by point, since the twists are such that it would take a lot of time and energy - neither of which I currently have. The most obvious question for you at this point is whether or not you have read the recommended psychological texts? Your misunderstanding of dissociation indicates that either you have not read them or you would benefit from reading them again. The main books I'm referring to are:

Myth of Sanity
Trapped in the Mirror
Unholy Hungers
The Narcissistic Family

Your YCYOR tendencies appear to be blinding you to the objective reality of the matter, and as your sacred cow, you appear to be clinging to these tendencies quite tightly. In short, you cannot think about the way you think with the way you think - so - are you interested in actually moving past that? If so, then the psychological reading is a great start - if not, then perhaps a more newage forum would be a better fit for you?

You are right I didn't read those and I will try to, step by step.
Thank you

 

[ana]

Hi Pryf,

Others make you great because they make you able to see things you are not able to see now, but you will only find the truth in yourself, inside you and reflected on the outside, and of these two you will make one.

I agree that my own attributes which are often hidden from me are reflected on the outside - in others - and thus through others I learn about my own self. But this does not mean to me that others are "me" at this present level. We are all perhaps "parts of a whole" and by learning about the different parts we get a more objective understanding of the "whole".

God is in all levels and degrees, God is everything and everything is God.
When you say (Trying to put ourselves at the same level of God may be regarded as hubris.)you forget you are in a degree of consciousness puting yourself in a God aspect, Are you being hubri for that?

I do not deny or forget that perhaps I am a part of God like everything else that exists. But being a part of something is not the same as being the "whole". IMO hubris lies in this mistaking a part (a minuscule/infinitely small part that is me) as the whole (which is God/existence).

STO, nothing remains hidden, so that nothing remains hidden, it is necessary the vision of non-duality.

I do not agree that STO=Nothing remains hidden = Non-duality. STO and STS both are parts of the whole.

It requires a full integration and acceptance of the opposites as own intrinsic parts.

To me being a STO candidate involves learning the lessons at this level of reality and that does involve the true acceptance of opposites as parts of the whole. I can only speculate that STO is one who recognizes that it is only a part of the whole and honors and appreciates all that is - including the STS. So I agree with the "acceptance" part of your statement quoted above but not the "integration" part.

STS, inability to "feel" oneness as they only see what they want to see, and the lack of superior emotion.

Or perhaps STS does try to "feel this oneness" and strives to make this "oneness" happen in their reality? Perhaps the STS does not see and appreciate the difference in manifest reality of which it is a part but instead tries to enforce this oneness by making everything within its power to conform to its own subjective idea of what this "oneness" should be like? And perhaps herein lies the hubris and what Illion in "Darkness Over Tibet" refers to quite dramatically as the "greatest and most deadly sin against the Creator"?

I am somewhat familiar with the oneness principle from the Hindu Advaita (translated as non-duality) philosophy. IMO the new age movement has latched onto this principle without a thorough study. And if they are asked to study this principle, perhaps the standard response is

Non-duality is an achievement for which we need the emotion, the oneness is not comprehensible for reason or intellect, because it can not be reached through mental processes.

My personal experience is that at a practical level, trying to feel this oneness through superior emotions leads to self-calming and a shutting out of the reality of life at this level. The oneness principle at a superficial level has great appeal precisely due to this self-calming effect - it lets a person sleep soundly while the house burns since ultimately it is all one and the fire is actually a illusion right - ;).

Hello Obyvatel,

I do really apreciate your participation and thoughts, but don't want to make you all waste time and energy on me.
First will try to read those books.

Thank you so much