What does this quote mean???

[Menna]

"Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means." - Gurdjieff

Im going to take a crack at this...I have come up with two opinions

1) This could mean - In order to grow and progress you need to suffer but there comes a point when suffering is no longer needed no longer necessary to grow and if you wish to progress further you have to shed the suffering, because this suffering is now holding you back in some way

or

2) This could mean - When you are suffering you are growing and you need to suffer in order to grow but there comes a time when you have to realize that what is causing the suffering is not really suffering and you have to change your mindset because this suffering is actually what you wan't to be doing or there comes a time when you are so developed that there is no suffering and you just have to realize it.


I really can;t say I have the answer as to what this quote means anyone else care to share?

 

[tridean]

In its most simplest, IMO, we are addicted to needless subjective, attention seeking suffering, such as that portrayed on soap operas, but which makes us feel comfortable...and in order to sacrifice this comfort level we must suffer, by coming out of our comfort zone....I think! :)

 

[bjorb]

It's about recognizing the difference between Conscious Suffering and Mechanical Suffering.

Conscious suffering implies that by seeing yourself objectively, you will see your true self. And not the lie you always told yourself. - and this will result in seeing the emptiness of your actions. Which exist for many Internal Reasons. So it about Realizing that Ego is soulless. And since Ego plays a big role in our life this realization causes Suffering. And this Suffering is needed in order to shed of our self-importance. Because without it, there wouldn't be any struggle.

Than you got Mechanical Suffering. This implies things as, self-pity. And this is a huge distraction. Since when you are Suffering, it's isn't comfortable. So naturally you seek a comfort-zone. But this will hinders you greatly if you give in. Since Conscious Suffering is necessary. It means that we are realizing the Emptiness of our Ego.

Maybe this can help in explaining this case:

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=731

Or so I think...

 

[thevenusian]

"Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means." - Gurdjieff

I think what he means is that one needs to give up the idea that by suffering you will necessarily attain anything. In other words, giving up one's expectations and attachments to the outcome of your suffering.

 

[Phill4]

I personally believe and like to add, that when you subject yourself to (as G. says) "concious suffering" which may mean to SACRIFICE certain thing, is to therefore get something OR ATTAIN certain state or knowledge, which would help one to get whatever acording and deppending on what one would want to attain. I guess sacrifice is one of the key words.
IMO :P

 

[Menna]

Bjorn - You bring up a great point about Ego and the need for it to create an internal struggle or else we couldn’t progress. I remember (G) talking about Essence and Personality and how Essence stops progressing at a young age and personality takes over and this creates another struggle that can lead to the realization of our essence and will help us form a permanent I - It seems to be a re occurring theme that there has to be a struggle within to progress and learn.

So I honestly believe after doing more research that this quote means sacrifice is necessary to grow but once you reach a certain level it is no longer necessary. Interesting thought on Mechanical and Conscious suffering I have to look into that more.

 

[gurjf]

"Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means." - Gurdjieff

Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing the suffering attached to ......


:)

 

[Stevie Argyl]

Gurdjieff spoke about conscious labour and intentional suffering.

In Beelzebubs tales he states that the highest form of Intentional Suffering is to bear the unpleasant manifestations of others.
He also speaks again and again about the friction and suffering created by struggling with products/effects of our own self love and vanity especially emphasized in the chapters conscerning Ashieta Shamash.
There is mechanical suffering related to habits formed in life. In Beelzebubs tales he also explores some 'conscious suffering' which he saw absolutely no value in. The group the 'Self Tamers' in the chapter Tibet iirc, are engaged in a consciously chosen self immurement which Beelzebub see's no value in. (probably a reference to monks of the Nyen-de-kyi-buk monastery which G visited in his time in Tibet.)

So we could look at three types of suffering , the mechanical due to force of habit, eg suffering a dark mood when one doesn't get one's own way , mechanical suffering caused due to attachment to like/dislike. The conscious suffering that has little or no value cf the 'self tamers'. And the conscious suffering involved in trying to break our mechanical habits/trances and the suffering involved when interacting with others.

 

[Smallwood]

It's good that this was brought up, I've been thinking along these lines myself.

It seems to me that a lot of ego bound suffering is indeed 100% worthless. It can still be very immobilizing and serve no purpose at all, except lulling you into that victim-attitude where everything just happens to you and you expect the world to make up. I suffer from this a lot and it is really hard often to snap out of it. I think when having this it would help to concentrate on meeting the most basic external needs own your own, like monetary business. Because then it can show you that you can still affect things and that the idea that you can't is only in your head. That's what I'm going to try from now on.

I've experienced conscious suffering once and that lead to a whole lot of mechanical suffering. First things first is now my motto.

Edit:

I'm also reminded of Laura's nick ("Who wants to learn must suffer...") and it has me wondering whether I'm really growing at all? Would one example of conscious suffering be reliving those traumatic events of the past? That would atleast serve a purpose.

 

[Mountain Crown]

It's about recognizing the difference between Conscious Suffering and Mechanical Suffering.

To my understanding, this is precisely what G meant.

Mechanical sufferings are programs which support self-importance.

Conscious suffering is the will to endure the conscience when dropping that which buffers it.

 

[Oxajil]

It's about recognizing the difference between Conscious Suffering and Mechanical Suffering.

To my understanding, this is precisely what G meant.

Mechanical sufferings are programs which support self-importance.

Conscious suffering is the will to endure the conscience when dropping that which buffers it.

I think so too. And many times, I think, mechanical suffering happens without notice. Some people think they're living the dream, while they are not. Some think they are having a great relationship, when it couldn't be more further away from the truth. Some see their suffering, but somehow they accept it. We love to be close to that which makes us comfortable in a way, according to our programs it is a good place to stay. And I think that when we are able to see this suffering, by doing lots of work, we'll be shocked and then we'll have to make the choice of either staying in that mess, or go and Do that which is uncomfortable to our ego, programs, predator. We need to get rid of this suffering that feeds the predator, which hurts us (and others) in silence.

If we choose that which is uncomfortable for the ego, but not for the heart, we can grow. And we learn to live Life with less mechanical suffering and more conscious suffering. We let the predator suffer, not ourselves. And sometimes we are hurt as well along the process, but the key is to not see ourselves as victims or as weak, but to take all responsibility for our own actions, and to take opportunities to grow.

So to come back to his quote:

"Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means." - Gurdjieff

You need to sacrifice the suffering the ego/programs/predator feels comfortable with and start suffering by doing that which is not comfortable to the ego, but ís comfortable to you, that part of you who wishes to grow.

 

[nwigal]

"Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means." - Gurdjieff

In my current understanding, I think he was stressing the need to propitiate the General Law, or throw the Predator a piece of meat, at the very beginning, to "buy some time" for the Work as a form of esoteric game theory.

From Paying in Advance from the Cassiopedia:
We have to understand that all other measuring units, talent, erudition, culture, genius, are changing units, units of detail. The only true measure, never changing, objective, the only real one, it is the measure of inner vision. 'I' see - 'I' see myself - and you have measured. With a higher, real part, you have measured a lower one, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the respective roles of each part, will bring you to self-respect. But you will see it is not easy. And it is not a bargain. One has to pay a lot. For the bad payers, the lazy, the losers, no chance. One must pay, pay a lot, pay immediately and pay in advance. Pay from oneself. With sincere efforts, wholeheartedly, without expectations. The more you will be willing to pay without reticence, without cheating, without falsity, the more you will receive. And from then on, you will meet your true nature.

From an on-line dictionary:
Sacrifice: to sell at a loss.

Sacrifice is also used metaphorically to describe a number of plays in games. Sacrifices, in this sense, are plays that deliberately lose pieces or opportunities in order to obtain some other advantage.

 

[anart]

"Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means." - Gurdjieff

In my current understanding, I think he was stressing the need to propitiate the General Law, or throw the Predator a piece of meat, at the very beginning, to "buy some time" for the Work as a form of esoteric game theory.

I think he makes it rather clear later in the book that he is referring to mechanical suffering versus conscious suffering, as others have pointed out in the thread. One must get rid of the suffering they enjoy (a very hard thing to do) and consciously suffer to learn.

 

[Alejo]

if i may add, from the point of view of G. nothing can be attained without suffering, because in order to attain something one must be able to DO, and in order to do one must start to observe and realize the mechanicalness, and in order to escape mechanicalness one must utilize "shocks" which would be understood as suffering for the sleeping being.

from that point, Suffering, albeit conscious, is the only way to attain anything, however, through observation it becomes evident how addicted we are to being depressed and to suffer in sleep, so if i may that phrase means.... to suffer consciously is the first step towards Doing, which is the only way to attain anything, but in that process one must wake up to the Suffering that is a hinderance for progress and sacrifice it, and the term is used because any addiction feels good and comfortable, progress which is understood to be moving towards the aim of attaining a will which cannot be done mechanically, thus the suffering that is a hinderance is that one which is mechanical or unconscious.

just my two cents here :)

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=anart]
I think he makes it rather clear later in the book that he is referring to mechanical suffering versus conscious suffering, as others have pointed out in the thread. One must get rid of the suffering they enjoy (a very hard thing to do) and consciously suffer to learn.
[/quote]

Yes. G was clear that nothing of value can come from anything mechanical. This includes suffering.

[quote author=IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS, pp. 56, 58]The evolution of man can be taken as the development in him of those powers and possibilities which never develop by themselves, that is, mechanically. Only this kind of development, only this kind of growth, marks the real evolution of man. There is, and there can be, no other kind of evolution whatever.…
In speaking of evolution it is necessary to understand from the outset that no mechanical evolution is possible. The evolution of man is the evolution of his consciousness. And ‘consciousness’ cannot evolve unconsciously. The evolution of man is the evolution of his will, and ‘will’ cannot evolve involuntarily. The evolution of man is the evolution of his power of doing, and ‘doing’ cannot be the result of things which ‘happen.’[/quote]

[quote author=G. I. Gurdjieff]In the river of life suffering is not intentional. In conscious life suffering is intentional and of great value.[/quote]

[quote author=G. I. Gurdjieff]A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering.[/quote]