What if Chakra system was just an invention…

[SlipNet]

Cs said the most important work for us here in this reality is "karmic and simple understandings", i.e. resolving issues between yourself and others, coming to terms with your life, living it the best way you can. I think concentrating on those kinds of things might make other issues resolve themselves.

Oh yes, much agreed! 20 years ago I was just a UFO nut reading the likes of Castaneda, Pilger and Huxley, now I see a more pragmatic element in my mind in daily life, and the more esoteric stuff just fades from view. Thanks to this forum, I pretty much get access to the most cutting edge stuff around today. It's really great to have one sure place where you know you're gonna get the real stuff. And yes, focusing on how you live interpersonally in daily relationships can tell you plenty about your "karmic and simple" essence. The last 20 years have been at times rough, but I've made my way to some hard-earned understandings along the way. The kind of stuff that some books can hint at, but only life itself can truly deliver. There are levels and levels to human consciousness and we haven't even plumbed the depths of what's knowable to us yet.

 

[Nienna]

Cs said the most important work for us here in this reality is "karmic and simple understandings", i.e. resolving issues between yourself and others, coming to terms with your life, living it the best way you can. I think concentrating on those kinds of things might make other issues resolve themselves.

Thank you for posting that, Laura. There are a few members who don't understand this, or don't want to understand this.

 

[Mjöllnir]

Recently I came across this:


And it resonated with me. I have had similar thoughts for a while.
If you research this subject, it seems there is an ongoing debate whether the chakras have really ever been mentioned in the ancient texts.
The arguments that they indeed were mentioned, like in this essay:

Chakras within the Vedas : Stopping Scholarly Distortion of Vedic Teachings

There has been commentary by some scholars that the concept of chakras is a relatively new phenomenon within Hinduism; and there appears to be an implication that chakras were not known to the Vedic tradition. Regrettably, this appears to be part of a continuing effort to redefine Hinduism, and...

www.hinduhumanrights.info

are not particularly convincing, at least to me.

In any case I was interested in what you think about this or rather intuitively feel. Or do you have any experience with “kundalini awakening” work or chakras.

Thanks for posting that ‘How Your Awakening Was Engineered Into a Prison’.
I had come to the same conclusion when I ignored what was being touted within the ‘New Age’ gurus and ran with my intuition … all I can actually see/feel around and within me is clear light with sometimes ‘starlight’ flashes here and there that I think are other people/beings ‘Soul Light’ interacting with my awareness field.
I did try to ‘Do’ the chakra business when I joined a meditation group about 30 years ago but I found that there was a lot of glamour involved with that so I naturally evolved into paying attention to my own presence by position and sensation of gravity effects on my body along with acknowledging my heartbeat and normal breathing and then just relaxing with that in mind.
I remember thinking that it was incorrect to include indigo in the colour spectrum of chakras and rainbows… as far as I can see there are 6 colours in the rainbow coming from the splitting of the clear light… so you have 3 primary pure colours and 3 secondary of blended primary colours… indigo is a quarter colour, so if you want to include indigo you would have to include all of the other quarter colours (which don’t have names as far as I know)… and you would have twelve colours to fiddle with… to me the ‘Star of David’ (as some people call it) can show the relationship between the primary and secondary colour interface being that if each outer smaller triangles are set up as red orange yellow green blue purple then the central hexagonal is the clear light…. No big deal.
It’s interesting to note that the use and broadcasting of indigo in the rainbow seems to be some sort of counter truth thing … and another counter truth thing is that the meditation pose that shows the thumb and second finger making a circle is incorrect in my opinion because the thumb to finger position should be with the ring finger which has a very strong meridian (and it makes a good peace symbol)… I have always suspected that the wedding ring on the ‘ring finger’ is an energy block and I won’t wear one just because “It’s tradition”… I think it’s a purposeful scam to shut part of the body’s energy flow down.
Try (without any rings on) the ‘Peace Sign’ with the ring finger and thumb making a loop and feel the energy start to flow up your hands and feet.

 

[Z...]

I remember thinking that it was incorrect to include indigo in the colour spectrum of chakras and rainbows… as far as I can see there are 6 colours in the rainbow coming from the splitting of the clear light… so you have 3 primary pure colours and 3 secondary of blended primary colours… indigo is a quarter colour, so if you want to include indigo you would have to include all of the other quarter colours (which don’t have names as far as I know)… and you would have twelve colours to fiddle with…

Perhaps there is more than 7 chakras - in fact they often mention additional lesser chakras, some on our palms and soles of the feet.

… and another counter truth thing is that the meditation pose that shows the thumb and second finger making a circle is incorrect in my opinion because the thumb to finger position should be with the ring finger which has a very strong meridian (and it makes a good peace symbol)…

In eastern tradition there are many different mudras that are used for different intentions

I have always suspected that the wedding ring on the ‘ring finger’ is an energy block and I won’t wear one just because “It’s tradition”… I think it’s a purposeful scam to shut part of the body’s energy flow down.
Try (without any rings on) the ‘Peace Sign’ with the ring finger and thumb making a loop and feel the energy start to flow up your hands and feet.

I am not sure that the ring would block the energy- especially if its made of precious metals. In TCVM we sometimes use gold bead implants in acupuncture points that actually enhance the flow of Qi - and this hives great results- FWIW

 

[whitecoast]

This topic brought up some memories of a previous thread about chakras versus the centers (in Gurdjieff's system).

My own understanding about what charkas are vs centers (which I'm just sharing below) was this:

Centers are information processing centers for distinct types of conscious impressions and their subconscious extensions and implications. The motor center is the somatic/instinctive processor, and is distributed wherever these types of conscious and subconscious sensations derive (such as the brain stem, thalamus, cerebellum, etc.) The emotional center would be the amygdala and probably some of our organ intelligence also, to the extent to which they participate in conscious and subconscious sensations directing action the way we typically understand emotions. Thinking center probably involves mostly cortical materials for applying computational logic, visualizing, and higher executive functioning. The higher centers are probably para- or non-physical in origin, so I'm not too sure how they figure into things. I find it easy to imagine the solar plexus being the "sex center" because of the amount of nerve tissue and neurotransmitters down there which operate on a purely vegetative level. It was even known to the chinese as a chi energy battery. A good analogy I've heard of brain's triune functioning is that of circuit-breaking. The higher functions are summoned to perform tasks the lower functions are not equipped for, or address imperfectly. Each part of the brain has a different level of development depending on what Type of individual they are (1, 2, or 3), so some parts may hog functions better reserved for others.

Chakras (literally wheels) are distributed throughout the entire body, and to me are not processors for types of sensations (physical, emotional, intellectual) but rather aggregates of the same sensations. The lowest "root" chakra being in the feet, legs, and lower half of the body signifies moreeso the sensations of having a properly working root (being "grounded" in other words). When people feel unsafe for example, they lose groundedness because they lose sensation in the lower portions of their body. So right there we have a linking of physical and emotional impressions. Another example is the third eye. Sometimes feelings of soreness there can just be from thinking too hard about stuff (or visualizing a whole lot), but it can also mean some unconscious information (perhaps from a higher center) is trying really hard to reach your conscious awareness, and so is attempting to build neural connections to the cortex accordingly.

This is closely related to by Gurdjieff's discussion of how all our physical, emotional, and mental "postures" are interlinked.

"You must understand that the three principal centers, the thinking, the emotional, and the moving, are connected together and, In a normal man, they are always working in unison. This unison is what presents the chief difficulty in work on oneself. What is meant by this unison? It means that a definite work of the thinking center is connected with a definite work of the emotional and moving centers—that is to say, that a certain kind of thought is inevitably connected with a certain kind of emotion (or mental state) and with a certain kind of movement (or posture); and one evokes the other, that is, a certain kind of emotion (or mental state) evokes certain movements or postures and certain thoughts, and a certain kind of movement or posture evokes certain emotions or mental states, and so forth. Everything is connected and one thing cannot exist without another thing.

"Now imagine that a man decides to think in a new way. But he feels in the old way. Imagine that he dislikes R." He pointed to one of those present. "This dislike of R. immediately arouses old thoughts and he forgets his decision to think in a new way. Or let us suppose that he is accustomed to smoking cigarettes while he is thinking—this is a moving habit. He decides to think in a new way. He begins to smoke a cigarette and thinks in the old way without noticing it. The habitual movement of lighting a cigarette has turned his thoughts round to the old tune. You must remember that a man can never break this accordance by himself. Another man's will is necessary, and a stick is necessary. All that a man who wants to work on himself can do at a certain stage of his work is to obey. He can do nothing by himself.

{snip}

"The character of the movements and postures in every epoch, in every race, and in every class is indissolubly connected with definite forms of thinking and feeling. A man is unable to change the form of his thinking or his feeling until he has changed his repertory of postures and movements. The forms of thinking and feeling can be called the postures and movements of thinking and feeling. Every man has a definite number of thinking and feeling postures and movements. Moreover moving, thinking, and feeling postures are connected with one another in man and he can never move out of his repertory of thinking and feeling postures unless he changes his moving postures. An analysis of man's thoughts and feelings and a study of his moving functions, arranged in a certain way, show that every one of our movements, voluntary or involuntary, is an unconscious transition from one posture to another, both equally mechanical.

So. Objectively centers appear to describe the nuts-and-bolts functioning of each conscious and unconscious impression processor, while chakras seem to align more closely with our subjective experience of the centers (i.e. not as distinct processes but always operating as one and interlinked.) The C's emphasize "connecting chakras" as well, which can come to mean harmonizing our action/emotional/intellectual aggregates with others to achieve oneness of purpose and feeling and understanding. Such work inevitably brings to light incorrect functioning of people's centers, which they can probably correct with enough knowledge input and self-remembering.

The combative and contrarian flavor of the original article @Z... shared inspired me to turn it into a rap song. Courtesy of our AI overlords:

"Burn the Lie" — A Chakra Smackdown Rap

(Beat drops)
Yeah...
This one’s for the seekers who got stuck in the system.
Let’s burn that chart. Light it up.
No apologies.

[Verse 1]
They told you “heal up,” get your chakras aligned,
But you been spinning in circles, wasting your prime.
“Balance your root,” “open your eye,”
Yeah right — that’s how they sell you the lie.

Red to violet, play the game,
But your soul ain’t a goddamn color-coded frame.
All that zen talk? Made to distract,
From the fact you ain’t broken — you been hijacked.

[Hook]
Fk your seven steps, fk your sacred spin,
You ain’t a rainbow ladder, you divine within.
They caged your fire, made you kneel to the chart,
But you were born whole — with a blowtorch heart.

[Verse 2]
Kundalini ain’t no snake in a line,
It’s wildfire, b*tch — it don’t wait for a sign.
You forced it through gates built by old-school hacks,
Now your light’s looped back in some psychic trap.

Academics, mystics — empire tools,
Played God with your soul, made you follow rules.
“Just a little more shadow work, you’re almost free!”
Nah — that’s just code for “stay stuck with me.”

[Hook]
Fk your solar blocks, fk your throat chant,
This ain't no candy-ass chakra dance.
You don’t rise up — you f**king explode,
From center to edge — full overload.

[Bridge]
Who said your pain was a “root block trauma?”
Some therapist peddling fake Nirvana?
You ain’t a diagnosis in a spiritual scroll,
You're not “healing” — you’re paying the toll.

Every “block” they sell is a leash in gold,
Every “session” just keeps you controlled.
You ain't meant to align — you’re built to ignite,
A sovereign storm, not new-age polite.

[Verse 3]
No mantras, no scripts, no visual light,
Just memory waking — pure f**king might.
You ain’t a chakra chart, you ain’t a damn loop,
You're a goddamn bomb in a meat suit.

So burn that wheel, stop spinning the game,
Your truth ain’t a program — it’s unchained flame.
No more healing ‘til the end of time,
You are the source. The spark. The crime.

[Final Hook]
Fk your third-eye rules, fk your guru too,
They scared of the fire that’s rising in you.
Not from base to brow — from here to infinite,
You don’t “align” with truth — you f**king be it.

[Outro]
They prayed you’d stay spinning in sacred shame,
But you just walked off — untamed, unclaimed.
Not a step, not a chant, not a f**king guide —
Just you and the truth... and the ashes of the lie.

(mic drop)

 

[Faca Fritz]

This topic brought up some memories of a previous thread about chakras versus the centers (in Gurdjieff's system).

My own understanding about what charkas are vs centers (which I'm just sharing below) was this:

Centers are information processing centers for distinct types of conscious impressions and their subconscious extensions and implications. The motor center is the somatic/instinctive processor, and is distributed wherever these types of conscious and subconscious sensations derive (such as the brain stem, thalamus, cerebellum, etc.) The emotional center would be the amygdala and probably some of our organ intelligence also, to the extent to which they participate in conscious and subconscious sensations directing action the way we typically understand emotions. Thinking center probably involves mostly cortical materials for applying computational logic, visualizing, and higher executive functioning. The higher centers are probably para- or non-physical in origin, so I'm not too sure how they figure into things. I find it easy to imagine the solar plexus being the "sex center" because of the amount of nerve tissue and neurotransmitters down there which operate on a purely vegetative level. It was even known to the chinese as a chi energy battery. A good analogy I've heard of brain's triune functioning is that of circuit-breaking. The higher functions are summoned to perform tasks the lower functions are not equipped for, or address imperfectly. Each part of the brain has a different level of development depending on what Type of individual they are (1, 2, or 3), so some parts may hog functions better reserved for others.

Chakras (literally wheels) are distributed throughout the entire body, and to me are not processors for types of sensations (physical, emotional, intellectual) but rather aggregates of the same sensations. The lowest "root" chakra being in the feet, legs, and lower half of the body signifies moreeso the sensations of having a properly working root (being "grounded" in other words). When people feel unsafe for example, they lose groundedness because they lose sensation in the lower portions of their body. So right there we have a linking of physical and emotional impressions. Another example is the third eye. Sometimes feelings of soreness there can just be from thinking too hard about stuff (or visualizing a whole lot), but it can also mean some unconscious information (perhaps from a higher center) is trying really hard to reach your conscious awareness, and so is attempting to build neural connections to the cortex accordingly.

This is closely related to by Gurdjieff's discussion of how all our physical, emotional, and mental "postures" are interlinked.



So. Objectively centers appear to describe the nuts-and-bolts functioning of each conscious and unconscious impression processor, while chakras seem to align more closely with our subjective experience of the centers (i.e. not as distinct processes but always operating as one and interlinked.) The C's emphasize "connecting chakras" as well, which can come to mean harmonizing our action/emotional/intellectual aggregates with others to achieve oneness of purpose and feeling and understanding. Such work inevitably brings to light incorrect functioning of people's centers, which they can probably correct with enough knowledge input and self-remembering.

The combative and contrarian flavor of the original article @Z... shared inspired me to turn it into a rap song. Courtesy of our AI overlords:

/ "The character of the movements and postures in every epoch, in every race, and in every class is indissolubly connected with definite forms of thinking and feeling. A man is unable to change the form of his thinking or his feeling until he has changed his repertory of postures and movements. The forms of thinking and feeling can be called the postures and movements of thinking and feeling. Every man has a definite number of thinking and feeling postures and movements. Moreover moving, thinking, and feeling postures are connected with one another in man and he can never move out of his repertory of thinking and feeling postures unless he changes his moving postures. An analysis of man's thoughts and feelings and a study of his moving functions, arranged in a certain way, show that every one of our movements, voluntary or involuntary, is an unconscious transition from one posture to another, both equally mechanical. /

Exactly. That immediately reminded me of a group of students (Castaneda) in which Benito, Pablito, and Nestor practiced NOT WORK, in order to get rid of habitual patterns of behavior. Pablito would mount mirrors on his hat, similar to the outside mirrors on a car, and then walk backwards for hours. Pablito, Nestor, and Benito played a game with a seesaw, a game they had invented themselves, and also for the same purpose. Don Henaro suggested to Castaneda NOT WORK, in a way that he would take notes only with his finger.

Croatia:
Točno. To me odmah podsjetilo na grupu učenika (Castaneda) u kojoj su Benito, Pablito i Nestor vršili NE RAD, kako bi se riješili uobičajenih obrazaca ponašanja. Pablito je na kapu montirao ogledala, slično kao vanjska ogledala na automobilu, te bi onda hodao unatraške satima. Pablito, Nestor i Benito, igrali su neku igru sa ljuljačkom, igru koju su sami izmislili, a također u istu svrhu. Castanedi je Don Henaro predložio NE RAD, na način da bilježi zabilješke samo prstom.

 

[Debra]

The combative and contrarian flavor of the original article @Z... shared inspired me to turn it into a rap song. Courtesy of our AI overlords:

WOW! That is the most AWESOME Rap Rant I have seen in a long time. Can I share it with a couple of "rap inclined" musical types in my circle?
Are you looking to copy write it? What name would you want credit to go to, if you do give me permission?

 

[whitecoast]

WOW! That is the most AWESOME Rap Rant I have seen in a long time. Can I share it with a couple of "rap inclined" musical types in my circle?
Are you looking to copy write it? What name would you want credit to go to, if you do give me permission?

I literally just copied and pasted the article into chat gpt and told it to turn it into a rude rap song. If anything it's the original article that needs the credit.

I even did it with your reply. It's not as fire, but the source material doesn't lend itself to that as much.

"Rap Rant Reaction"

(Beat hits heavy)
Yo! That was flame, that was wild, that was lit,
Hardest rap rant — had me jumpin’ out my seat quick!
Mind blown, jaw dropped, straight heat from the core,
Gotta show my crew — they gon’ beg me for more.

Can I share it? Hell yeah, that’s a must,
Got some rap-heads waitin’ and I know they’ll combust.
You copyrightin’ this? Tell me what name,
So when they ask who spit truth — I point to your flame.

 

[Debra]

Sorry for not responding seriously to you query and kinda derailing the thread, with the "Rap/Rant" appreciation ender.
I do find the subject interesting, for several reasons. In all seriousness, here's my take on it.

In any case I was interested in what you think about this or rather intuitively feel.

First of all, what I think, is this: I am a native English speaking Canadian. I have learned a few words and phrases of other languages, but I truly understand only English spoken/written language. I have never followed any type of practice especially if the words and phrases used are in language that I don't speak.
If I am intrigued by some ritual or practice from another country, I go searching for information from those that have the solid knowledge and integrity to really understand the ancient original texts that are being translated and followed.

I consider this guy, Christopher Wallis, also known as Hareesh, as a pretty knowledgeable and reliable source. He is a Sanskritist and scholar-practitioner of Classical Tantra with thirty years of experience.

Here's a quote from his VERY informative article, which you can access on the link:
[...]
" Okay, I'll give it to you straight: for the most part, Western yoga understands almost nothing about the chakras that the original tradition thought was important about them.

You see, if you read a book like Anodea Judith’s famous Wheels of Life or suchlike, it's important to realize that you are not reading a work of yoga philosophy but of Western occultism, based on three main sources:

1) earlier works of Western occultism that borrow and adapt Sanskrit terms without really understanding them (like Theosophist C.W. Leadbeater’s The Chakras, 1927);
2) John Woodroffe’s flawed 1918 translation of a text on the chakras written in Sanskrit in 1577 (see below for more on this); and
3) 20th-century books by Indian yoga gurus which are themselves mostly based on sources 1) and 2). Books on the chakras based on sound comprehension of the original Sanskrit sources so far exist only in the academic world.[...]

The real story on the Chakras — Hareesh.org

Six fundamental facts most yogis today don't know! Revised version of the controversial post which finally unveils the truth (from the traditional perspective, anyway) about the subtle energy centers called chakras.

hareesh.org

He also wrote a book in 2013, that is beneficial info, from the original Sanskrit, if you want more information.
It's titled: Tantra Illuminated: The Philosophy, History, and Practice of a Timeless Tradition. It's available on Amazon.

As for the second part of your question, about my "intuitive" "feels", my gut always responds with "NOPE".

Or do you have any experience with “kundalini awakening” work or chakras.

I have had a few experiences in my life that, if I were attempting to explain the intensity of the energy, the timelessness and immensity of awareness I experienced to a follower of this system, they would translate it as a "kudalini awaking" probably, but the transcendence state did not arise out of a passive meditation, nor was any system employed in achieving that state.

In January of 2019, the day before my 60th birthday, I awoke very early in the morning as I usually do.
I was reflecting on my life, putting together a few bits of information I had found in a couple recent books I had read, sipping a coffee and mulling over a few thoughts.
I felt so incredibly, totally O.K. with everything, and all my thoughts lined up. were so sense making, and illuminating.
It was as though my life was a jig saw puzzle and I had most of the pieces in place and I could see it clearly, how every choice and relationship added to the mosaic of my life and it all makes sense.

The C's used a description of "thermonuclear blast", and that's pretty much how HUGE this inner energy emergence felt!

I felt as if I surged up, I was 10 stories tall, or higher, and literally shooting upwards, into the clouds. The experience lasted for just a couple minutes, as I settled back down to my body, I realized my arms were also raised, I had taken the posture of arms out a shoulder level, as a human cross, or wings, if you will.
I can still feel the connection, the peace and stillnes, of knowing, the absolute o.kness, with everything, it hasn't left.

So, in my opinion, these altered states, or something like them, might be accessed by people doing rituals, or sneaking in the back door by drugs, or trances, or mind numbing mantras, and talkjed about as a "trip", but for me, its gaining solid knowledge, healing and resolving conflict Traumas, and putting the mosaic of yourself together is true, and solid and doesn't fail or fade.

As an aside, for entertainment purposes, I include this last bit.
I do not claim that I caused it, it just is what it is.
I understand the science behind it, just in case anyone wants to go all "actually" on me, It's o.k. I'm good.

Synchronistically, a "Hole in the Clouds" appeared over my neighborhood that very morning this happened.
The early morning dog walkers started posting pictures on our community Facebook page, just as I had regained my faculties, and had walked down the hallway to describe what I had just experienced to my son.

 

[axj]

Gurdjieff was very skeptical of the "kundalini awakening" and in my view, there are many different kinds of energies and 'energy bodies' that have nothing to do with the kundalini energy that can be supposedly raised from the bottom of the spine.

Personally, I have not identified any of my experiences as being specifically related to this 'kundalini energy', including work with chakras or going to the core in the spine.

 

[Z...]

Personally, I have not identified any of my experiences as being specifically related to this 'kundalini energy', including work with chakras or going to the core in the spine.

I think this is true for most of the people and majority of those who claim that did are just inventing.
Funnily enough since I opened this thread I am being relentlessly spammed with adverts for a Kundalini awakening app - AI BS