What the smurf did I just do??

[theos]

Hi everyone,

I just completed an 8-day seminar to become a certified natural health professional as a prelude to obtaining a doctorate in naturopathy. One of the lecturers informed us that it would be worth considering to become a minister in order to have practitioner-client confidentiality just as there is doctor-patient confidentialy as with MD's. This would be helpful in case you had to appear in court for whatever reason. I was hanging out with my mother last night when I just mentioned casually that I became an ordained minister over the internet. I could barely get the reason why out of my mouth before she was questioning me about what type of church it was and then the big question of "Are you saved?" came out.

I could've just said, "Yes, I am. You were there both times, remember?" Instead I said, "What do you mean by saved?" She asked me if I believed that Jesus was the son of God and that he died on the cross to save me from my sins. Now, I should have been thinking --and practicing -- strategic enclosure, Strategic Enclosure, STRATEGIC ENCLOSURE! and remembering that Anart said that her family thinks that she believes the same thing they do. (I only remembered that after the cat was out of the bag). Instead I said that I believed in Jesus but I'm not too comfortable with the whole dying-on-the-cross-to-save-me-from-my-sins bit. So, a conversation ensued.

She said that it was "terrible" that I didn't believe. She acknowlegded that she is a big ball of feelings and emotions (she was even crying at one point) but she believed that her beliefs were true because she has such a strong feeling for it and feels solace and comfort in it. I posed some questions such as: What kind of choice is it to believe when the alternative is to roast in hell? Why would God damn the majority of the world's population who are not Christians? Would you have me killed to redeem the sins of the people in your neighborhood? Does believing really strongly and feeling very emotional over something make it true? Have you ever deeply examined the Bible, your beliefs, or any material that analyzes the Bible even? (All useless questions I know. I had crossed the border into Sacred Cowville.) She did say that a lot of the Bible doesn't make sense and has some things in it she questions. She went on to say that she's heard the argument that Christianity was only pushed on us to make us more pacified and content with our sorry lot in life (even I can say amen to that one) but she still believes it because she feels so deeply that it is true. She added that I was too smart for my own good (I really beg to differ) and that there are some things you just shouldn't know. I said, in a nutshell, that knowlegde protects and keeps you from being a taken advantage of or getting into situations that are harmful and that "salvation" requires work and no one can do it for you.

I told her that I'd been reading about religion and I wonder what Jesus really meant when he said "the Kingdom of Heaven is within", what did the parables really mean, what did Jesus believe, what was ancient Christianity but it was hard to know with all the myth built up. In my family I've had a bit of a reputation for marching to the beat of my own drummer -- even before I came across the material here-- but I think this took the proverbial cake. It turns out that my brother talked to her about whether I was "saved" or not prior to this conversation because I'd asked him why there had to be a blood sacrifice for anything. (This was before I knew about strategic enclosure --not to be confused with the current situation of knowing strategic enclosure and stupidly forgetting to practice it.) So, she's had her suspicions but never said anything til now.

The conversation probably didn't last more than 10-15 minutes total and it ended by me asking her if she hated me and thought I was going to burn in hell. She said that she loved me and didn't think I would burn -- a contradiction in her beliefs, I know-- but she would pray that I would change my mind.

The conversation was not contentious but I feel as if the hounds may have been unleashed and I've done myself a great disservice by letting this part of me out. What the heck is all this love and light she's gonna send my way do to me? Could I have even done my mother a disservice as well? Could this push her even further into her fundamentalist beliefs because now she has a heathen daughter she has to work to save? A while ago she asked me to make SOTT her home page when we were discussing where to get reliable information about current events and occasionally she's read an article here and there. I fear that what I have done may turn her off as she might think that all this reading (all that craaazy book-learnin'!) led me into my heathen-dom.

I'm generally quiet and private but I think I put my foot in it this time. What the smurf did I do? (If there are any old fans of The Smurfs out there...I sometimes use "smurf" in place of a curse word). I must say I'm a bit worried about this and couldn't sleep.

Oddysey

****formerly known as Chachachick*****

Mods: I know that this topic has been covered in many places before so merge it if need be.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Hi Oddysey,

If it comes up again maybe you could just tell your mother that you are seeking - believing you will find, knocking - believing the door will open, and asking - believing there will be an answer.

This could be enough to maintain a strategic enclosure and provide some consolation for your mom.

 

[truth seeker]

I totally got and loved the smurf reference!

MC's advice was what I was thinking. Basically you upset her expectations for/of you and I think the advice given will add a safety net for her.

When you say that you became an ordained minister over the net, was that true or were you just joking about the situation that came up with one of the lecturers? Meaning, did you go through with it?

Tell her (if you really do) that you believe in Jesus but like her also have unanswered questions and are searching like everyone else. I'm not really clear as to whether "being saved" amounts to the same or if there's some ritual involved with that...

 

[theos]

When you say that you became an ordained minister over the net, was that true or were you just joking about the situation that came up with one of the lecturers? Meaning, did you go through with it?

Yes, I did become an ordained minister. It was completely generic and only required you filling your name in a form. For a small fee they'll send you a card. The way the lecturer explained it it makes sense if you are ever raked over the coals for dispensing natural health advice, or if one of your clients ends up in court and the topic of your sessions with him/her is brought under question.

The ritual in being saved involves going up to the front of the church and professing that you believe Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for your sins, went to hell and defeated Satan and rose on the third day. Or at least that's what my Grandpa told me to repeat. It's usually followed by baptism. I wrote about my first experience in http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.msg86307#msg86307 . My second experience was nowhere near as traumatic. But it still didn't "take".

Thanks for the replies, MC and truth seeker. I will heed your advice.

 

[truth seeker]

When you say that you became an ordained minister over the net, was that true or were you just joking about the situation that came up with one of the lecturers? Meaning, did you go through with it?

Yes, I did become an ordained minister. It was completely generic and only required you filling your name in a form. For a small fee they'll send you a card. The way the lecturer explained it it makes sense if you are ever raked over the coals for dispensing natural health advice, or if one of your clients ends up in court and the topic of your sessions with him/her is brought under question.

The ritual in being saved involves going up to the front of the church and professing that you believe Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for your sins, went to hell and defeated Satan and rose on the third day. Or at least that's what my Grandpa told me to repeat. It's usually followed by baptism. I wrote about my first experience in http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.msg86307#msg86307 . My second experience was nowhere near as traumatic. But it still didn't "take".

Thanks for the replies, MC and truth seeker. I will heed your advice.

Ah yes... it all comes back to me now. It's been a lifetime since I went through that. Thanks for explaining!

I'm also thinking that with your participation on this site coupled with becoming ordained will put you in a really good position to help people in the coming days. The certification will add credibility to what you are saying for those willing to hear.

 

[anart]

I could've just said, "Yes, I am. You were there both times, remember?" Instead I said, "What do you mean by saved?" She asked me if I believed that Jesus was the son of God and that he died on the cross to save me from my sins. Now, I should have been thinking --and practicing -- strategic enclosure, Strategic Enclosure, STRATEGIC ENCLOSURE! and remembering that Anart said that her family thinks that she believes the same thing they do. (I only remembered that after the cat was out of the bag). Instead I said that I believed in Jesus but I'm not too comfortable with the whole dying-on-the-cross-to-save-me-from-my-sins bit. So, a conversation ensued.

Well, don't be too hard on yourself - it's my personal theory that mothers have a secret back door to emotional programs and triggering the mouth to engage before the mind even notices a conversation is going on, so - I think the situation can likely be salvaged - and it's a good lesson!!

The conversation was not contentious but I feel as if the hounds may have been unleashed and I've done myself a great disservice by letting this part of me out. What the heck is all this love and light she's gonna send my way do to me?

Nothing - don't worry, she simply lives in a 'different world' than you do - a different reality, so you keep working on defining yours objectively and hers will be hers.

Could I have even done my mother a disservice as well? Could this push her even further into her fundamentalist beliefs because now she has a heathen daughter she has to work to save? A while ago she asked me to make SOTT her home page when we were discussing where to get reliable information about current events and occasionally she's read an article here and there. I fear that what I have done may turn her off as she might think that all this reading (all that craaazy book-learnin'!) led me into my heathen-dom.

Well, it might help to remember that your mother is not you - and there's really not much, if anything, you can do about her own path and her own fundamentalist beliefs. It can be a really hard thing to accept and grok, especially with family, but not everyone is capable or even wants to be capable of seeing things as they are.

I think MC's advice is pretty helpful - ultimately, your mother wants to believe that you're saved and living for Jesus - if you give her even the smallest hint or sign that this is not out of the question and you do believe, she'll likely take it and run with it and be fine. To be externally considerate, it is often best (when doing so will not threaten your own ability to Seek and Do) to tell mothers (of this disposition) what will make them comfortable about such things, in order to give ourselves room to Work. My older sister recently asked me if I believed in Jesus/God - and I said, "of course". I wasn't lying - I do think there was a person around whom the Jesus myth accreted and I do think, without question, that there is a 'divine cosmic mind' that others would interpret as 'God'.

I know that my definitions differ from hers, and that she will never, ever understand that, or why - so, the simple and externally considerate thing to do for her, since she is who she is, was to say, "of course". ;)

Now, since your mother is a fundie, I know it might take more than that - but considering that she ultimately wants to believe that you're saved - it might be fairly simple to help her along there while re-establishing your strategic enclosure so you can move forward without the wrath of the family fundies descending on your head. Those are my two cents, at least.

 

[Buddy]

Hi Odyssey. I share the same views expressed so far. Anart makes a point about differences in definitions that I use to my advantage as well. My family also thinks I have beliefs similar to theirs with regard to religion. Any time that I've done any kind of deep questioning of anyone's beliefs, I've found very few instances where two people have the exact same understandings, so it seems to me that unfounded, unsubstantiated beliefs held by many religious people are, by nature, subject to interpretation, so if called on something, I always have the option of "oh, I thought you meant..." or something similar, and then reassure them another way.

 

[Marcus-Aurelius]

Ah! STRATEGIC ENCLOSURE! I completely forgot that when facing a colleague last week. Thanks to remind me about it Odyssey. She just wanted to buy in her "Yavhe is the God almighty, creator of everything" theory and now that I think about it, seems like I reacted too emotionnally. I really don't like this guy.
And I was not external considering toward her. I should explore this situation further.

 

[Nawd]

Strategic Enclosure? How did I forget about this so many times? Geesssh I think I could have saved (no pun intended haha) a lot of emotional discussion had I remembered to use this very valuable tool.

*bangs head against wall* (Many of my family members are Pentecostals.)

My best guess is that you won't hear anything about Christianity for awhile, although hopefully, unlike my grandmother, she won't seek help from her pastor as far as advice. Normally the advice is: "Bring her to church, it's for her own good."

Thanks for the reminder of what I personally need to learn to practice.

 

[theos]

I think MC's advice is pretty helpful - ultimately, your mother wants to believe that you're saved and living for Jesus - if you give her even the smallest hint or sign that this is not out of the question and you do believe, she'll likely take it and run with it and be fine. To be externally considerate, it is often best (when doing so will not threaten your own ability to Seek and Do) to tell mothers (of this disposition) what will make them comfortable about such things, in order to give ourselves room to Work. My older sister recently asked me if I believed in Jesus/God - and I said, "of course". I wasn't lying - I do think there was a person around whom the Jesus myth accreted and I do think, without question, that there is a 'divine cosmic mind' that others would interpret as 'God'.

I appreciate those two cents, Anart. I'll be sure to use it now with everyone.

I'm feeling better about the situation. A lot of my worry was thinking that my mother thought badly of me. She'd always been so proud of me before. I know that it's just not realistic that one will never disappoint or upset one's parental units but there it is.... I haven't talked to my mother again but you've all given me some helpful comments. Sometimes it takes a screwy situation to cement a lesson.