When do STO actions become truly STO in an STS realm such as our is 3D?

[genero81]

Hi remochar, IMO your question it's not trivial, I think that many here (if not everyone) have in one way or another thought about it sometime...

Summarizing the general direction of this thread, I think STS/STO is not black and white but a continuum. Some of the more esoteric material that is studied here suggests that the primary objective of 3D is to commit to a polarization and 4D is a refinement of the polarization. I don't think perfection of the polarization occurs until 6D. What you have until then are shades of gray which are STO vibrations, but diluted. Since STO, in a nutshell, is defined as total lack of concern for self, it would logically follow that STS must be total lack of concern for everything but self. Therefore, it would seem to me that any action that gives more to others than to self is an STO act, even if not the "perfected STO." A series of actions that consistently benefits others 51% of the time vs 49% for the self is actually antithetical to the egocentric self-interest-is-god mode of operation and would slowly build up a momentum that pulls you away from the STS center of gravity (although at 51%, polarization would move along at a snail's pace). Perhaps that is why Ra described it as a minimum threshold for his "graduation criteria."

Having said that, my preliminar conclusion is that in our 3D STS existence it is unlikely (maybe not imposible) that we reach a pure STO state and act as pure STO being. Everytime we do something, in one way or another, there will be a certain ambiguity of intentions in a varied mixture of STO/STS. So what I think about our better option is to be as STO as we can... And for that IMO our better tool is THE WORK: increase our knowledge and understanding of ourselves and the Universe, and above all, BE HONEST with ourselves. It is not the same be helpful for others believing that we are a "good person, a "good christian", a "high spirit" (or whatever you believe in) , than be aware all the time about this kind of ambiguity of intentions that ever operate in one way or another inside us. With knowledge and being aware of ourselves IMO a window of choices are open up in front of us, the choice of do the right thing just because we want to align with that polarity, i.e. with the STO side of Universe.

Very well put, especially the last sentence. I posted what I did because I think accessing one's higher emotional center is needed to be able to 'open a window of choices' where one can align with STO or strengthen that frequency through one's choices based on the ideals or values one has an internal commitment to. OSIT

 

[Ruth]

Very well put, especially the last sentence. I posted what I did because I think accessing one's higher emotional center is needed to be able to 'open a window of choices' where one can align with STO or strengthen that frequency through one's choices based on the ideals or values one has an internal commitment to. OSIT

Easier said than done. I think being STO is about bringing balance to the universe. it isn't about aligning ones self (to STO) or excluding (presumably STS 'stuff') from our lives. It's about seeing things as they are.

And even the process of doing that would be difficult, if we didn't know what STO was all about, or how it 'worked'.

Oh, and why shouldn't all of the body's centers be open to partaking in the process? You mentioned specifically, the higher emotional center. What makes this one special? Especially if STO is about a process of integration or connection? Why should a person exclude the rest?

 

[genero81]

Very well put, especially the last sentence. I posted what I did because I think accessing one's higher emotional center is needed to be able to 'open a window of choices' where one can align with STO or strengthen that frequency through one's choices based on the ideals or values one has an internal commitment to. OSIT

Easier said than done. I think being STO is about bringing balance to the universe. it isn't about aligning ones self (to STO) or excluding (presumably STS 'stuff') from our lives. It's about seeing things as they are.

And even the process of doing that would be difficult, if we didn't know what STO was all about, or how it 'worked'.

Oh, and why shouldn't all of the body's centers be open to partaking in the process? You mentioned specifically, the higher emotional center. What makes this one special? Especially if STO is about a process of integration or connection? Why should a person exclude the rest?

"This present teaching differs from many others by the fact that it affirms that the higher centers exist in man and are fully developed. It is the lower centers that are undeveloped. And it is precisely this lack of development, or the incomplete functioning, of the lower centers that prevents us from making use of the work of the higher centers. As has been said earlier, there are two higher centers: The higher emotional center, working with hydrogen 12, and the higher thinking center working with hydrogen 6."

"The higher thinking center, working with hydrogen 6, is still further from us, still less accessible. Connection with it is only possible through the higher emotional center." (ISOTM)

"Although education is a major preoccupation of families and public authorities, the emotional development of the child is almost totally left to chance. In contemporary civilization, this leads to an extraordinary impoverishment of our affective lives." (Gnosis)

The above quotes are a small sample of why it is I say that accessing the higher emotional center through work on the lower emotional center seems to me to be key to moving to a higher state of being. At least according to my understanding at present. I did not say, nor would I say that a person should exclude the other centers.

 

[Cosmos]

I see it similarly as Joe, msante and Niel summarized above. Additionally I would add, similarly to what Joe said, that there doesn't seem to a sure method by which a steadily way towards STO must happen.

What I mean is that a good carpenter for example can do in his realm of influence the same amount/gravity of good deeds towards STO, as another person with a "higher occupation" can do, as long it is based a number of basic principles and I think the "at least 51% STO deeds" is a good analogy in that regard.

I also think Gurdjieffs mentioning to try to go (paraphrasing) "an extra mile" in pretty much every situation and activity in life, is a good way of looking at it as well. From small things like seeing that there is a plate that isn't washed yet and you notice that you tend to just want to leave it there, you instead just wash it. To bigger things, like somebody asking you for help and because you feel cranky at that moment you wouldn't normally do it now, then just do the deed of helping NOW and not later. And so on.

I think even the "smallest things" of that nature make a difference in regards to moving towards STO.

 

[syldan]

Studies and observation suggest that what makes most people happy, what motivates them in life and provides enduring contentment and the ability to keep on going in the face of suffering and obstacles, is to exert their energy in such a way that they feel they are helping or providing a beneficial service to other people or society in general. So maybe the goal should be for each person to become aware of this fact, remember it in their daily lives, find a particular area of work or activity that suits their particular proclivities/abilities, and exert their energy in that direction for the rest of their lives. Maybe that's the most anyone can be expected to do.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, you have truly enlightened me, I quote Joe here because he summarizes perfectly a healthy viewpoint in my mind. And each reply brings some depth to particular aspects of our lives.

 

[Tuulikki]

I think this is a very sensible perspective and one worth following. We can all get bogged down sometimes with the details and end up thinking we will never achieve something as worthwhile and wonderful as being of STO orientation. I am going to concentrate on doing my best to help others, as often as possible and as much as possible, and not overthink it.

 

[Martina]

This reminds me of that moment in The Matrix when Oracle explains Neo that becoming The One is like falling in love, you simply know it :)

 

[fabric]

This reminds me of a few sessions where the C’s talked about this. What I basically understood from them was that there are no “STO actions” that become truly STO in our realm. Just about everything here is STS (except maybe STO visitors from 4d ;)) so while we can conduct ourselves in alignment with STO principles in essence they cannot be STO since we are STS due to the nature of this planet and everything on it. It seems more like it's in 4d where we choose to align ourselves one way or the other but at this point one can only be an STO candidate which to me means that we are likely to choose to be STO should one find themselves in 4d. And if you did ever manage to act in a truly STO way whilst here, well, it seems like you wouldn't be here for very long!

I think to add to Joe’s point, not only does one put energy into things that help or are beneficial, but also tries to do the best we can in all aspects of life, including the smallest things. And to do them just because you love to do it. Without any anticipation or expectations or rewards. Without feeling warm and fuzzy just because you did a nice thing for someone. It’s just what you do because that’s who you are.

Here are the snippets of the sessions that came to mind:

January 14, 1995

Frank, Laura, Terry and Jan, Tom M and Andrea

[...]

Q: (L) Okay, let's take a short break... [break] Now, guys, I guess you have been listening to our discussion and you listened to Jan read the paragraph from the article about 4th density experience being the highest level of wishful thinking, that wishful thinking becomes reality... (J) Or did I take it out of context?

A: Close. STS.

Q: (L) So, STO wishful thinking...

A: STO does not wishfully think.

Q: (L) Well, how does STO think? (T) Responsibly... (L)[experiencing acute pinching feeling at nape of neck] God! You guys are doing strange things to my body...

A: Helpful and balanced. Wishes are strictly STS.

Q: (L) So, acceptance of experience in the sense of just allowing things to happen and responding in a balanced and helpful way is an STO response or experience in 4th density, is that correct?

A: Close.

Q: (L) And therefore, seeing things moving past such as what I saw by my window, and responding to them basically in an open, curious, and allowing way would have been an STO response, is that correct?

A: Maybe.

Q: (T) It depends on how you respond curiously. (T) The Lizzies are hanging out in 4th density too, and they are not STO, are they?

A: Correct.

Q: (T) So, they are not having STO helpful, responsible..

A: True.

Q: (T) So, in 4th density, both types can still happen?

A: Yes.

Q: (T) The desired type is the STO type thinking...?

A: Yes.

Q: (T) But STS thinking is also available if that is the way you decide to go when you get there?

A: Yes.

Q: (T) This of course limits you in your ability to move up to 6th density?

A: Yes.

Q: (T) Once you are in 4th density, if you choose STS, can you change it to STO?

A: Yes.

Q: (T) So you can move back and forth as you so desire and it is all still free will?

A: If you move from STS to STO in 4th level, you don't move back.

Q: (T) Once you are STS in 4th density you have to stay there? (L) No. (J) If you move from STS to STO in 4th density you don't go back to STS, you stay at STO, is that correct? (T) That's what I mean, once you have decided to do STO, that's where you stay because you don't have any desire to go back to STS?

A: Yes.

Q: (T) So, it is not so much that you don't have a choice, it is just that you don't want to go back to STS?

A: Yes.

Q: (T) So if you move up and do what the Lizards are doing, then you continue to do that until you get tired of it or see different, or become enlightened and then move to STO and then that's where you will want to stay?

A: Open.

Q: (T) Can you move from STO back to STS? I know you said you can't, but that's because you choose not to?

A: Natural factors prohibit this.

Q: (L) So, I guess that once you get to STO natural factors, the nature of that position is that you just simply don't... it just doesn't happen.

A: Now, blockbuster for you: 3rd level beings who reach total STO profile automatically and instantaneously go to 4th level at moment achieved!

Q: (T) They just vanish? Have people done that before here?

A: Yes.

Q: (F) Yeah, I've heard of that. (T) Sure, people disappear that all the time. (L) Well, I don't think it happens that often, but I think it happens... (F) It has happened. (J) People disappear and you never hear what happened to them. (F) There have been cases where people have suddenly vanished, where a flash of light has just hit them and Poof! (T) Like spontaneous combustion... (F) No... (J) Not spontaneous combustion because the body is left behind. (F) There have been cases where people were actually sitting with other people and suddenly everybody present suddenly sees a blinding flash of light and that person is Spffft! Gonzerooni! (L) Gonzerooni? (F) Once and for all! (T) I want to ask this question, if it has already been asked, somebody stop me, what is the total STO profile? (L) Total lack of concern for self.

A: Yes.

August 11, 1996

Laura, Frank, Terry & Jan

[...]

Q: (L) OK, we've been talking earlier this evening about intent, and of course, our own experiences with intent have really been pretty phenomenal. We've come to some kind of an idea that intent, when confirmed repeatedly, actually builds force. Is this a correct concept, and is there anything that you can add to it?

A: Only until anticipation muddies the picture... tricky one, huh?

Q: (L) Is anticipation the act of assuming you know how something is going to happen?

A: Follows realization, generally, and unfortunately for you, on 3rd density.

Q: (L) Is this a correct assessment of this process?

A: Both examples given are correct. You see, once anticipation enters the picture, the intent can no longer be STO.

Q: (L) Anticipation is desire for something for self. Is that it?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) OK, so it's OK to intend something, or to think in an intentional way, or to hope in an intentional way, for something that is to serve another, but anticipation defines it as a more personal thing.

A: And that brings realization.

Q: (L) So, desire to serve others, and to do something because it will help others, brings realization...

A: But, realization creates anticipation.

Q: (L) Well, how do we navigate this? I mean, this is like walking on a razor's edge. To control your mind to not anticipate, and yet, deal with realization, and yet, still maintain hope... (J) They said it was tricky... (L) This is, this is, um...

A: Mental exercises of denial, balanced with pure faith of a non-prejudicial kind.

Q: (L) OK, so, in other words, to just accept what is at the moment, appreciate it as it is at the moment, and have faith that the universe and things will happen the way they are supposed to happen, without placing any expectation on how that will be?

A: Yes.

August 28, 1999


[...]


Q: What I am saying is: if a person can simply BE, in the doing and being of who and what they are, in simplicity; to become involved in doing everything as a meditation, or as a consecration, whether they are walking down the street and being at one with the air, the sunshine, the birds and trees and other people; in this state of oneness, doesn't that constitute a giving to the universe as giving oneself up as a channel for the universe to experience all these things?

A: Not if one is "feeling this oneness."

Q: We are what we are. Nature is nature. Progression is progression. And if people would just relax and be who and what they are in honesty, and do what is according to their nature without violating the Free Will of others, that this is a more pure form of being than doing things out of any feeling of expectation, or desire; to just BE, not want... just BE?

A: Yes, but STS does not do that.

Q: (A) From which I draw conclusions: if there STS around us, we cannot just...

A: You are all STS. If you were not, you would not be where you are.

Q: (A) There are those who are happy in the STS mode; and there are those who are trying to get out of the STS mode...

A: STO candidate.

Q: (A) These STO candidates cannot just simply BE, even theoretically, because then, STS would eat them.

A: No.

Q: Why not?

A: STS does not eat according to protocol.

Q: What does that mean?

A: What do you suppose?

Q: I have no idea!

A: STS "eats" whatever it wants to, if it is able.

Q: That's what we said. If you are STO in an STS world, you are basically defenseless and they eat you.

A: No.

Q: Why? What makes STO unavailable or 'inedible?'

A: Frequency resonance not in sync.

Q: (A) But then, that would mean that all these people who are saying that we need just to love everything and everybody, are right. They just be, and love, don't do anything, just give everything to the Lizzies... they are right!

A: No, because motivation is STS.

Q: How is the motivation to love everything and everybody, and to just give, STS?

A: Feels good.

Q: So, they want to do it because it feels good?

A: Want is an STS concept.

Q: So, you seem to be suggesting that the real trick is to just become non-attached to anything and anybody, do nothing, and just dissolve into nothing? No thought, no want, no do, no be, no anything!

A: If you are STS, that does not fit, but, if you did exactly that, you would reincarnate in an STO realm, where such energy does fit.

Q: But, if you have become nothing, how do you reincarnate? And, when you say 'reincarnate,' that implies being in a body!

A: You do not become nothingness.

Q: But, being incarnated means being in a body?

A: No.

Q: You mean moving into a realm that does not necessarily mean being in a body?

A: Close. But 4th density is partially physical. Does not consume nor possess.

Q: (A) This is contradictory to what we are doing. (L) Why write a book or do anything? There is no point. We should just sit around, do nothing but contemplate our navels and do nothing. (F) Why do you say that? (L) Because doing anything at all constitutes wanting, needing, possessing, having, and so on. (F) Of course, because this is an STS realm. (L) So, therefore, we should do nothing. We should contemplate our navels and try to get out of it and to heck with everybody else! (F) I disagree. (L) Otherwise, it is contradictory. If you try to help anyone else, or do for anyone else, you are desiring to help them. Therefore, you are desiring to change something... (F) Well, sure, but this is an STS realm. (L) Anyway, I would like to know who and what this Marcia Schafer is channelling. She seems to be channelling several sources, or claims to be. Could you tell me who and what?

A: Not yet, because this issue is not yet resolved. You are confused because you seem to think you must be STO to be an STO candidate. You are STS, and you simply cannot be otherwise, until you either reincarnate or transform at realm border crossing.

Q: Alright, I got that.

A: But, did Ark?

Q: We are here, we are what we are, and until the realm border comes, we can't be anything else. (F) So, don't worry about being STS. That is what we all are. As long as we eat food, that's what we are. It's that simple. You can be moving toward STO, but you aren't there yet, and there is nothing wrong with that. (A) We ask a question, and you answer this question, and this answer can be interpreted in different ways. I am not sure which way this answer was meant. The answer was: if you are STS, the answer does not fit. I mean, sitting and doing nothing. If you are STS that does not fit. But, if you do exactly that, you will reincarnate in an STO realm where such an energy does fit. There are several interpretations. One is that, if we do exactly that, we reincarnate in an STO realm where the energy does fit, and it would be just the right thing to do, because we WANT to be in an STO realm. So, one sure way to go to an STO realm is to sit under the tree and do nothing and contemplate your navel, but not having too much fun... eat nothing, desire nothing... typical Zen. There is another possible interpretation: if you would do exactly that, then you would reincarnate in an STO realm where such energy does fit, but there may be other STO realms that do NOT consist of such energies. So, maybe there is a way to another way to another STO realm, to which this energy does NOT go, but other ways would go. (L) And, there is another problem here: the very fact that one would do this is DESIRING to go to an STO realm! Which precludes the going. If you desire to be STO, you are screwed! (A) Not being, that is what some teachers teach. Nirvana. Is this something that is supposed to be the only way, and is it something that we are being encouraged to follow because it is no desire, no anything. Or, are there different STO realms?

A: Not different realms, as such, but different ways of getting there. Your respective developments have led you to where you are.

 

[Ennio]

This reminds me of that moment in The Matrix when Oracle explains Neo that becoming The One is like falling in love, you simply know it :)

For me, much of the process of 'becoming STO' or working towards a future when that may be possible, is in trying to recognize what thoughts, motivations and feelings I have that are not motivated by the best intentions. Maybe it requires a certain amount of doing this - being honest with ourselves as has been mentioned here - and working on seeing what informs the dross in ourselves that, at some point, may then allow us to say: "wow - that thing I just did was STO-ish" or "that act seemed like a bonafide approximation of an approximation of what a truly STO being might do under similar circumstances". In other words, from more fully realizing what isn't 'STO,' we may some day (hopefully) come to know what is.

 

[zak]

When answer to when question :

Citation de Romochar:
When do STO actions become truly STO in an STS realm such as our is 3D

Joe'signature from the Cass:
"When you begin to separate limiting emotions based on assumptions from emotions that open one to unlimited possibilities, that means you are preparing for the next density."

 

[bozadi]

Some additional wild guesses from my part:

STO is not somewhere or something out there. It is the basis of our being and of everything else. When we say we are STS, theoretically, this is likely to mean that we are not true to ourselves, that, even, we can be violating or betraying our very being, and this is related to and/or leads to non-being. But it is explained that STS is also kind of natural for 3D, because in the great scheme of things, most probably I think, level 3 is something like spiritual childhood. Children are supposed to "take" (STS) rather than "give" (STO). But the area between 3D and 4D is something like the passage from spiritual adolescence to spiritual younghood and/or early adulthood when looked from the greatest perspective. And it seems that, at this point, one is free of the need of compulsory taking and is gradually supposed to firmly determine about one's polarity either towards STS or STO as a freewill choice.

I think when we say one is an STO candidate, this probably means that one has seen, or perceived or witnessed the STO reality, and wants to attain it, or "go there". But it is not really somewhere to reach externally in space and time. It is more an internal (with an equally external reflection in balance) exploration and conviction about the nature of being. I think it is all a discussion of Self. In terms of STO, there is only one true Self, and it is 7D, which also means everything; and all other lesser selves are true only to the extent they are firmly identified with the One True Self. And from the viewpoint of STS, each self is supposed to be "completely" independent (of the One True Self , which is from STO's perspective) and this also amounts to a denial and/or a hatred/fear of the rest of existence.

I think to the extent one believes and/or knows that one is (of) the One True Self, this tends to slow down and/or stop time and all fear, desire and anticipation because STO is practically the end of duality. You are One True Self and you don't need to fear yourself or be lustful of yourself. But 51 percent STO also means 49 pecent STS, so duality somehow goes on, and it seems that this is also why most the conflictual interaction between STO and STS occurs in 4D.

 

[luc]

I also think Gurdjieffs mentioning to try to go (paraphrasing) "an extra mile" in pretty much every situation and activity in life, is a good way of looking at it as well. From small things like seeing that there is a plate that isn't washed yet and you notice that you tend to just want to leave it there, you instead just wash it. To bigger things, like somebody asking you for help and because you feel cranky at that moment you wouldn't normally do it now, then just do the deed of helping NOW and not later. And so on.

I think even the "smallest things" of that nature make a difference in regards to moving towards STO.

I think this is quite spot-on.

The problem with 'striving towards STO' is that there are absolutely no 'rules' as to what is and what isn't STO. Yes, there are extremes that are clearly STS, like hurting people for fun and so on. But generally, each and every situation is truly different! One set of actions can be totally STS in one situation, and totally STO in another. That's a terrible thing to realize and that's why external feedback and a network are so important. We just have no clue, but we can listen to other people telling us what they see about ourselves and slowly, painfully learn to get a bit better.

It may sound weird, but think about training a dog: the dog has no clue about appropriate behavior, and it will develop according to its master's skill, orientation and dedication. We are kinda like dogs: what we need is a good 'master', a good dog trainer, and I think that's precisely what a STO-oriented esoteric school can provide. Of course, that means that we have to listen to our teacher(s) and be willing to be 'trained'.

Now you might think that's totalitarian and that you don't need a 'master' or 'dog trainer' - that you want to be free. But this is impossible: you will always have a master. If you don't choose a good one, your master will be the general law, the STS realm that we inhabit. And you will be trained to be a STS slave, whether you realize it or not. So the major ingredient to becoming a bit more STO is to choose a good master, to surround yourself with people who can 'train' you, and then listen to them and follow the training.

That being said, I think "doing what 'it' doesn't like", i.e. going against your default actions and reactions all the time as much as possible, is a surprisingly good rule of thump when it comes to STO behavior. And it makes sense in light of the dog analogy: we have been trained to be STS slaves by the global, evil master, and most of our actions reflect that. That means going against our default/learned behavior means we are moving further away from that evil STS master, and as such closer to the STO realm...

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= luc]The problem with 'striving towards STO' is that there are absolutely no 'rules' as to what is and what isn't STO. Yes, there are extremes that are clearly STS, like hurting people for fun and so on. But generally, each and every situation is truly different! One set of actions can be totally STS in one situation, and totally STO in another.[/quote]

You mean luc, when you say that every situation is different. That it depends on how the cosmic drama (karma for example) must play itself out?


[quote author= luc]we have been trained to be STS slaves by the global, evil master, and most of our actions reflect that. That means going against our default/learned behavior means we are moving further away from that evil STS master, and as such closer to the STO realm...[/quote]

I think so to and that's what the community based society is for. A society that is meant to stimulate the higher centers instead of the lower centers.

What we have today is a society that worships the Ego. (lower centers) It's meaningless, pointless and more people than ever are depressed. But there is a other way that they don't tell us about. And that's simply looking out for each other and having a 'service to other' role to play to within society.

Though western society is focused that we should do whatever we like and lead self-serving careers sorely based on our own desires. The deception is here that doing whatever you like does not bring true happenis. You must always take into account how it serves society and others. True happines comes with fulfillment with brings meaning. Meaning is about dancing with the intentions and purpose of creation.

So if we could build a society that is based on that. It would be more STO-ish. Instead of being dominated by STS behavior.

 

[luc]

You mean luc, when you say that every situation is different. That it depends on how the cosmic drama (karma for example) must play itself out?

What I meant is that ethic norms like "you should do that" or "you shouldn't do this" don't apply to the concept of STO - what is good and what is bad depends on the situation. For example, let's take the rule "be friendly to your guests" - well, not a bad rule, but what if someone toxic and malicious shows up at your door? Good idea to kick him or her out, and fast! Or the concept of kindness and not acting agressively - sure, but sometimes you need to go into 'domination mode' and really draw the line! It really depends on the situation.

The problem is that we are usually programmed to act in ways that are strengthening STS - we won't kick that guest out because we think "it's not so bad" and "treat your guests well", but in reality, we just don't do it because we don't feel comfortable doing it; it's hard for us. We don't dominate a situation because it doesn't come natural to us, yet we justify it with "dominating people is bad". But in other situations where we should be kind, we get angry and dominate. In other words, in our default state we get it wrong almost all the time and justify our behavior with random ethic rules - it's easy to find a moral rule to justify almost anything. Hence the need to get feedback and do what 'it' doesn't like - behaving in ways that are difficult for us, that feel challenging. Hope this makes sense!

 

[bjorb]

You mean luc, when you say that every situation is different. That it depends on how the cosmic drama (karma for example) must play itself out?

What I meant is that ethic norms like "you should do that" or "you shouldn't do this" don't apply to the concept of STO - what is good and what is bad depends on the situation. For example, let's take the rule "be friendly to your guests" - well, not a bad rule, but what if someone toxic and malicious shows up at your door? Good idea to kick him or her out, and fast! Or the concept of kindness and not acting aggressively - sure, but sometimes you need to go into 'domination mode' and really draw the line! It really depends on the situation.

Oh like that, yes that is tricky. If someones behaves like that, I think you could try to see them the faults in their behavior. If we really care and look out for each other we all act out as mirrors for each other. If the other is not willing to accept the mirror. And their behavior keeps impacting you negatively. Than the following applies I think. ''you don't have to act against them, you just have to follow your own destiny'' Like the C's once said. And just move on. Though that doesn't mean that we can still fall for that and remain stuck in poisonous relationships. Because of the progamming you mentioned.