Where are we really going to

[Griller]

I've been a fan of all unexplained phenomena and conspiracy theories and such. I wholeheartedly believe in the importance of finding out the real state of these things and wish people will keep doing it. Having said that, there's been one thing that's been on my mind for a good while now....

If you're not into reading long posts, I've stated my short two-sentence simple version in the end of this post. I intentionally put it in the end to not spoil the reading for those who might wish to read the whole thing. A big part of this is just a rant of how I feel, but I think one can derive some good even from that. At the very least, I did my best to make it a constructive rant.

All this talk about 9/11, JFK, conspiracies and such. They themselves were terrible things to have happened. From what I heard from my parents, JFK sounded like a very kind and gentle yet brave man, a very rare man to rise to such position where it might be possible to change things for the better on a bigger scale. The wars and unexpected attackls directly against civilians, I call them that now since I don't want to divert from the topic with the whole argument of what was the truth behind those terrorist or false flag operations, it's beside the point now and there's more than enough arguing about that already elsewhere. Whatever force is behind these things, we ought to fight it not just verbally but in other means too. Why so?


The problem of just verbal fight

First of all, all the research on things like 9/11 has it's place and people have done a good job about them, and I urge people to keep doing so and spreading the information in a conscious manner and giving the listerner an actual choise of listening or not listening and respecting that choise. It's important and it's no minor thing. To go out and shout things is not good, but going out and asking if the person would like to hear what you have to say is not bad in itself. If you don't come back to harass the person after the person first rejected you, at least. This is just my view and you can argue it, but if you do so keep in mind that even people who are wrong about things have a mind of their own and you should not disregard that and veil your words to something like "O'm just saying" or "just a friendly arvice" or anything like that. It's an excuse for pushing your agenda, no matter how good agenda it is, in insincere ways. Do not be insincere, because that is the very nature of the game that PTB plays.

That's a load off my mind. Now, to the point why it is so important that you keep your resaerch and info spreading up, is because the people will react to it and some may come to seek further information and do research of their own. New minds may open new points. If no one had bothered to do these things, we would be totally oblivious of things like dangers of GMO, additive foods, industrial tobacco (yeah I believe pure tobacco isn't bad but I still resent much industrial things), overly poisonous pest deterrents like roundup aka. agent orange, and such.
But what good does that research actually do? It may one day become so public and so accepted that even the legistlators can not ignore it and their hand will be forced to right the wrong. The public may become aware enough to avoid those things, okay. The government or whoever did it may lose it's trust and be forced to step aside no matter how much they tamper the elections. Okay. All of these are okay, but what is not okay is relying solely on them, because they all require a bigger amount of people to act, lest they're usually more or less powerless words for the time being. That doesn't make those words any less important, but at least for me it means that if there's something else we can do without unreasonable effort, we should do it.


Other solutions

There are those. Permaculture is my favourite one, but there's a reason to it. Before I was aware of this permaculture, natural farming, I did some research on alternate monetary system since it's the money that controls us. All in all, while the alternate systems didn't seem too bad, there was one flaw in each one of them: to get the system really going, you had to get a food producer or two to use that system, and this is where I realised it'd be beneficial if instead of advocating these system I'd become a food producer. There was one major problem though, oil. To farm a field you need a tractor, lest it's a real, real drudgery for that amount of food. Didn't seem like a good option, so I turned my attention to the oil and food thing for a while, even though it seemed like beside the point at that time. Watching BBC-owned document "A Farm for the Future" gave me something to go on with, even though I was reserved against this permaculture thing. But the more resaerch I did on the subject, the more real it seemed. It's been about three months since I first heard about it and I'm now more convinced than ever. So what am I doing here writing about this instead of doing more research on the matter? Because I feel people should start doing what I did, start taking their life into their own hands instead of being just verbal about it, with all due respect.

So, what if you can take life into your hands, to produce your own electricity and food and have no loans to pay? What then? At least then you're not so compelled to make physical donations aka. work for the system that works against you and me and against it's users. The system is playing aikido with us and it's winning. It'll keep winning if you don't do anything physical just as you can't win a real-life fight with just talking yourself out of it when you're being beaten senseless by an aikido professional. Permaculture, natural farming, is called aikido with nature for a reason, so I say lets give them back some aikido!

But I must confess, that permaculture and self-sufficiency are just parts of the solution, and you might not necessarily need them in the manner than I'm gonna use them. Still, one should not disregard what they can give, and I hope professionals from those fields will rise to give people the tools to pull themselves from the system. Still, if societal changes at a larger scale are not made, the anomalies in the current system, anomalies like the whole large-scale representative democracy, keep pushing us back. The smaller scale you're allowed to decide on, and the more you move towards direct democracy instead of representative democracy, the less room there is for deception if you ask me. Of course there's always room for that, but when you vote for how things should be, not for who should decide how things should be, there's no room for err if you've given time and a comprehensive yet simple-language unbiased study on the matter.
One way to act to make things better in the perspective of the aforementioned democracy issue is to get a lot of people together and move to a certain area and work towards gaining more autonomy in that area. That's a concrete way that has direct influence, even if it does require more people to do it. Small-scale direct democracy.

There's a whole lot more injustices and anomalies that are waiting to be fixed in this society that one can not fix alone, if you ask me. That is why it's important to work together and keep the verbal fight up. Still, ask yourself if it's really all you can do, or more importantly all that needs to be done. After all, we priorise our use of time based on how important we see things.


Short version

Verbal fight, reserach and spreading information and such are not bad in themselves if you do them with a conscience, without resorting to any form of mental violence of sorts. Yet if you think that's all it takes, you're walking on a thin ice, because words themselves can not change a thing if they're not acted upon. Tools for action: self-sufficiency -> permaculture, direct small-scale democracy.


-Mikko Saari, Finland

 

[realitybugll]

Permacutlure, related to animals (meat :)) may have its place. seems creative, and fun engineering problems. but I think the real activism or work is to be done is on oneself. thats what makes the most sense to me. maybe this includes researching and learning with objective, intent to understand reality. And people looking for information, come along, read it, and learn from you.

So this idea of verbal fighting is definitely bad. forcing ideas on people is not good. I suppose you came to this conclusion. but research and sharing seems like a opposite thing and good. not all sharing is / has to be, forcing ideas onto people that don't want to listen. It can be giving people information that is asked. Its hard to do but I think worth it.

Maybe you want to read In Search of the Miraculous, to see where I am coming from. "we" are against the psychopaths the way i see this. And you allude to it? i.e the defunct democracy. 9/11 lies. and the damage they wreak on society and individuals is large. so I am trying to become free from this influence.

So what am I doing here writing about this instead of doing more research on the matter? Because I feel people should start doing what I did, start taking their life into their own hands instead of being just verbal about it, with all due respect.

you've found something that works for you. and you believe this can help others. your post, while you don't intent it probably, is more of an attack I felt. because you are frustrated at others. or want others to "see". So it appears you are doing the same thing that you said you did not want to do. "pushing an agenda".

just incase I wasn't clear. I don't see your proposition as a solution. You are talking generally of new small-scale economy... movement. that is what I see. these are happening currently so I've heard mentioned. then you are talking about politics. "small-scale direct democracy". And eventually how with this be different than what we have now? I don't see any solution just wishful thinking. Maybe I could be convinced.

 

[Nienna]

The basis of this forum is Working on the self. To change the world, one needs to change the self first in order to "see" things in an objective manner instead of a subjective one. This is what this forum is about. That and research into all and everything.

The research we do is to inform ourselves, and any others who wish to learn, about the psychopaths in charge of this world, how they have created a sick and evil environment which keeps us trapped and sick. Part of this learning is how agriculture has destroyed the soil we live on. So we do know about permaculture. Lierre Keith's book The Vegetarian Myth is a very enlightening read.

Also, the hyperdimensional take on things is researched here. Even though we cannot prove it, there is a lot of very interesting research done on this subject, along with a lot of experiences of others here, and out there in the world.

We do not "push" anything on anyone here, or on Sott. We simply print what we have found, and experienced ourselves, and put it out there for those who want to read it to do so. However, this is our house, or actually Laura's and Ark's house, and they have been studying and researching these things for decades. And because this is their house, we expect people to be good house guests in their home. We don't allow trolls to wreak havoc here.

Psychopathy is THE most important thing for people to learn about, as far as we are concerned. Psychopathy has led to the depletion of the soil, the killing of everything that lives in it and on it.

Also, learning about the self through the 4th Way, Sufism, Castanada, etc. is also very important to us. This is how we learn about our programs, which is what we have used to protect ourselves from the narcissistic environment that we have grown up in, and how to get them under control. It is not an easy path to follow, but it is a very rewarding path. And the only way that we can progress on this path is to network with others who have already done a lot of the Work on themselves and can point out our programs to us that we cannot see. There is no other way to do this than to network with like-minded people who already know about the programs you do not know about yet.

I'm just putting this out here so that you realize what this forum is about. Research on all of the things that we think will help not only ourselves, but others who are looking for a way to understand the things that are happening in this world and what we can each do to help ourselves.

 

[anart]

Hi Griller. Have you read the forum guidelines? Have you read any Gurdjieff, or at least Laura's Wave and Adventure series and Secret History of the World? This information is the basis of this forum and it would be greatly appreciated if you would at least make yourself familiar with that before deciding what it is we are and are not doing. To put it concisely, you don't understand what it is we are doing here, and in that lack of understanding you have come to enormously erroneous conclusions.

 

[Griller]

wetroof, I've come to the conclusion that verbal fight we talk about is bad long since, but I am not and probably won't be an entirely good person in this life. Maybe in the next :) this is still one place where I ought to keep that side in check. You guys hit the nail with me doing something I preach against. I recognice these as somewhat inherited traits, but even if they are doesn't give one no right to act upon em. There's room for changing oneself.

I've been wanting to confirm these things for a while now, looks I succeeded. Too bad I didn't grasp the nature of this forum, figured something like this was bound to happen, it's crystal clear now though. Did read the rules, twice with thought, and a bit of Gurdjeff's text.

You guys, especially those on the SOTT team, are not who I directed the criticism to, on the contrary. I've just seen a lot of people on the net doing their research and stuff, and since these words've been said to me too I know the feeling's nature. But I believe there's a lot of people out there who would do good for themselves to heed these words. Make no mistake though, I've no intention repeating myself nor pushing any views on people. That line of pushing views become more grey and broad the more you become emotionally or soulfully numb/tired, this post is a fine example that one ought to do the leaving of views on sight available for people, not pushing of views on them.

Since this is Laura's house, you guys might wanna consider me an outsider on the same side with a bit... unruly(?) nature :) whatever you want. I didn't mean to insult something so precious to you, apologies.

 

[realitybugll]

Hi griller,

I think I would agree with you, Gurdjieff's work / life, of course the way I understand it, is precious to me. If you insult gurdjieff, yeah probably I am insulted too. I have witnessed this with my brother. I don't really feel insulted by you though. you didn't insult gurdjieff :). I think I felt pity but also annoyance when I began to write. Because basically there is a big difference in our understandings. and I should not feel this need to try and fill the gap or find common ground or something, but I did. and it not an easy task. how do you explain gurdjieff to someone who has not spent much time with his ideas? and I personally found a lot of value in it. And with my understanding of his ideas, your solution just seemed silly.

There is common ground in feeling the need for a solution. but I can't claim to propose one. It's definitely bold to do so. but really what I do most is just try and help myself. I can't imagine how daunting it is to assume responsibility for others. and with the system we live in, it would appear almost impossible to make a difference in the way I imagine. Because I feel there is always a counter action. one victory for human rights -- but unintended consequences down the road. I think that is how activism works. not effective. because you have the psychopath but I suppose it really comes clear for me, when I look at the hyper dimensional aspect. If we take the subjective, annecdotal "data" into account it really paints a scary picture. and freedom is the only thing worth anything. but who gets there? I guess that is the question.

I also had the thought that a good business could be made out of permiculture innovations. and if that's something you have the interest in, I could definitely see it serve a larger purpose.

Gurdjieff's teaching is definitely abstract in a sense. Like I did kind of say, this post attracted my attention because I'm curious, what solutions can there be in a more practical sense I guess. because I feel a problem. And I'm interested to see what others are thinking.

There is a long thread on the forum "creating a new world". And I have only got through a little bit of it. I'd probably do good to read it. I bet it is probably a good exercise. If you want to read that thread it is definitely along your line of thinking so maybe it will be interesting to you. I'll post it.

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13795.0

I would like to start a discussion that focuses on Creating a New World.

I would just like for all participants to think about what is wrong with our world and what they would like to see happen to make it right.

There are a lot of things to which there are no simple answers. For example, I don't think that communisim, socialism, fascism or capitalism are the right way to go economically, but I'm not sure what IS the right way that would fulfill the needs of the majority of humans. How to separate what is essential to all, etc. Are there elements of each of those systems that are truly STO and if so, what? How to pull out what is useful and put it together?

I think it will be a very useful exercise to define things, to imagine things, to describe how things would be done in an STO world. Things like who decides things? How? Who owns things? How? Is there voting? How is it done? Who can vote?
Education... what is available to who and how? Who pays for it?

Social services: counseling, child-care, medicine, etc.

Literally every area of our society has been corrupted in one way or another, so how to re-imagine something that would really work? Re-think it, re-define and describe it?

Start anywhere. Maybe we should start talking about what is wrong with various systems and what could be done to fix them, if anything. If they are wrong at the foundation, what to replace them with?