Why are the younger generations so much taller

[deluz]

I strolled through Walmart the other day and could not help but notice the increasing size of younger men. Every guy in the store, except me, was at least 6'2" tall and many were in the 6'4" - 6'6" range. I am not talking about beanpoles. Quite a few were thick, husky, muscular, and athletic. I mention Walmart, but the same or close to the same could be said for the local supermarket or any public place. There is nothing unusual about where I live. It is a typical suburban area of a large amercian city. I attended high school in the 60's and would estimate the average size of the male in my graduating class to be 5'9" to 5'9.5". I was 5'11" and considered at the time to be fairly tall. Fast forward about 50 years(2 generations) and this once tall guy now feels like a shrimp. And no, I have not shrunk. I am still 5'11".

What is going on here ? Why are the younger generations of men(women, too) so much bigger than their predeccesors ? My brother thinks it is due to vitamin enriched foods and a much healthier diet. Sorry, I just don't buy that. What kind of foods do these younger generation eat ? It should be obvious. They eat junk, they eat crap, they eat garbage. Fast foods, soda pop, loads of pizza, trans fat, and packaged/precessed foods. All of the above can be said to be staples in the typical american diet. This certainly was not the case 75 years ago. The average diet was much more wholesome with better nutrition. Could it be that junk foods have been given a bad rap. Maybe they are miracle foods that make one bigger and stronger and turn some men into giants. One has to wonder.. Or could it be that our DNA is coded in such a way that each successive generation is slightly(or more than slightly) taller than their parents generation.

I did some research via the internet and the reasons given for the increased size are many and varied---from breast feeding in infancy to demographics. Studies and hard statistical data was sparse. One of the more interesting ones was a study done by Tim Hatton(professor of economics) at the university of Essex covering a period from 1856 to 1980. It showed a strong correlation of shorter height with areas of high infant mortality rates. This would indicate better sanitation and growing up in a cleaner disease free environment plays a large role in increased height. Clinical geneticist Ravi Savarirayan, a professor at Victorian clinical genetics, offered an example of the height differential between north and south korea. Since the country's division, north koreans have become several inches shorter than their genetic cousins in south korea. He beleives it is due to a lack of quality food and starvation. One might also assume that the stress of living in fear and tyranny has an effect on the shorter height of the north koreans.

In the above 2 studies, one can easily deduce that an environment of better sanitation, quality food, and a lack of stress results in a taller human being. But none of these factors has validity when comparing america of the 1950's and 60's to the america of the 90's and new century. I can assure you the hygene and sanitation of the 60's was as good or better than the following decades. There certainly was less pollutants in the air and water. And the living, in general, was easier and less stressful. There was a feeling of optimism. People were proud of their country. Crime rates were low. The economy, schools, and employment was much more stable.

This brings us to the last factor, quality foods. There was never a lack of quality foods in the 50's & 60's. Yes, there was junk & fast foods, but they were no where near as prevalent as in the later decades. Nowadays, fast food restaurants are everywhere. Pizza parlors pop up like mushrooms in every strip mall. I counted 37 of them within a 25 minute drive of my house... and I'm sure I missed some. Ubiquitous convenience stores(7-11, Special K, etc.) offer big gulp containers(up to 64 ounces) of soda pop sweetened with high fructose at very reduced prices. I could go on and on. The wide abundance and tremendous variety of what society calls "junk food" is astounding ! But, as I say again, is this food really junk ? I will have to conclude from my limited research and data that it is the most likely determinant in the increasing height of the adult average american in the past 2 generations.

 

[Gaby]

Perhaps there are other factors in play here. For instance, genetic, toxic load and foods which mimics hormones, environmental, etc.

One that comes to mind is "Regression toward the mean":

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15333621

Regression to the mean (RTM) is a statistical phenomenon that can make natural variation in repeated data look like real change. It happens when unusually large or small measurements tend to be followed by measurements that are closer to the mean.

RTM is a ubiquitous phenomenon in repeated data and should always be considered as a possible cause of an observed change. Its effect can be alleviated through better study design and use of suitable statistical methods.

Could this be applied to stature? Are we on one of the extremes while previous generations were on the "mean"? I'm not sure, but another thing that comes to mind is Francis Pottenger's cat experiments.

In the 1930s, this scientist conducted a series of feeding experiments and which spanned more than 10 years and several feline generations. From the 2nd generation onwards, the cats that were fed processed foods showed vulnerability to disease, more structural deformities, allergies, reduced learning abilities, reproductive problems and stress-driven behaviors. It took around 4 generations of healthy food feeding in order for the cats to return to normal.

There is more information here:

_http://www.foodforhealthscotland.org/pottengerscats.html

Pottenger's Cats

A Study in Nutrition

The Reciprocal Relationship of Plants, Animals and Humans

[...]

43 canned milk formulas. Striking feature is over half (23) have very fine small bones.
9 have marked disturbance in calcification in bones of normal size or larger than normal.
9 exhibit marked weakness in their joints and ligaments. When the bone age of all the children is calculated, 23 are below the normal standard for their age, 15 are normal and 5 are above normal.

It seems to me that it is possible human size is increasing, at least in some countries and parts of the world. But it is not necessarily a marker of health. I think people's health is at its direst in ALL recorded human history. While some might be taller, they suffer of ill health whether recognized or not. It is interesting that the above study (done in children) showed that some grew taller while on artificial food, but the quality of their bones were bad.

The U.S. and the world at large are crippled with osteoporosis and joint/bone problems that should have been typical of old age.

I have a cousin who went to live to the U.S. when he was young. The rest of us cousins, were raised up in Central America. This "American" cousin became disproportionately taller than any single person in the entire history of our family. I always thought it was all the junk food and artificial hormones in the fast food he ate. His health was not ideal as well. He had actually high blood pressure, something unheard of in young people in Central America. Now high blood pressure in young people is considered as "normal". But it is not! My cousin is not overweight either.

Anyway, interesting topic!

 

[Nook]

In the 1930s, this scientist conducted a series of feeding experiments and which spanned more than 10 years and several feline generations. From the 2nd generation onwards, the cats that were fed processed foods showed vulnerability to disease, more structural deformities, allergies, reduced learning abilities, reproductive problems and stress-driven behaviors. It took around 4 generations of healthy food feeding in order for the cats to return to normal.

There is more information here:

_http://www.foodforhealthscotland.org/pottengerscats.html

Pottenger's Cats

A Study in Nutrition

The Reciprocal Relationship of Plants, Animals and Humans

[...]

43 canned milk formulas. Striking feature is over half (23) have very fine small bones.
9 have marked disturbance in calcification in bones of normal size or larger than normal.
9 exhibit marked weakness in their joints and ligaments. When the bone age of all the children is calculated, 23 are below the normal standard for their age, 15 are normal and 5 are above normal.

It seems to me that it is possible human size is increasing, at least in some countries and parts of the world. But it is not necessarily a marker of health. I think people's health is at its direst in ALL recorded human history. While some might be taller, they suffer of ill health whether recognized or not. It is interesting that the above study (done in children) showed that some grew taller while on artificial food, but the quality of their bones were bad.

The U.S. and the world at large are crippled with osteoporosis and joint/bone problems that should have been typical of old age.

I think this is a very important point.

Hormones, growth hormones and all the other toxins - also in my opinion - have increased the height of the population. And in most cases, their horizontal size as well. But they're not healthier, quite the contrary.
Even if a teenager grows to be 6'5" because of chemicals, they're like a big paper machet. They easily lose their balance, they're more vulnerable to diseases, with weaker bone structures, etc.

I have noticed this difference when I first visited the US in 2007 and compared the size of teenagers to the same age group in Hungary.
US kids were much bigger (and so was I but I kind of grew up on junk food unfortunately, which wasn't the trend in Hungary at the time, it only became a trend by approx. the mid 2000's).
Horizontally and vertically. It struck me as odd but didn't give it too much thought then, only in retrospect did it make sense.
Though I suspect by now, it's become a global tendency.

What is going on here ? Why are the younger generations of men(women, too) so much bigger than their predeccesors ? My brother thinks it is due to vitamin enriched foods and a much healthier diet. Sorry, I just don't buy that. What kind of foods do these younger generation eat ? It should be obvious. They eat junk, they eat crap, they eat garbage. Fast foods, soda pop, loads of pizza, trans fat, and packaged/precessed foods. All of the above can be said to be staples in the typical american diet.

Also, I think calling it the Standard American Diet is more descriptive (which can be abbreviated to SAD)

 

[Gaby]

Hormones, growth hormones and all the other toxins - also in my opinion - have increased the height of the population. And in most cases, their horizontal size as well. But they're not healthier, quite the contrary.

I was reading about Acromegaly which is the medical term of Gigantism and it surprised me to realize how excess growth hormone could be so subtle and yet so damaging. Here is a paper about it:

Increased psychopathology and maladaptive personality traits, but normal cognitive functioning, in patients after long-term cure of acromegaly.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20843947

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

Active acromegaly is associated with psychopathology, personality changes, and cognitive dysfunction. It is unknown whether, and to what extent, these effects are present after long-term cure of acromegaly.
AIM:

The aim of the study was to assess psychopathology, personality traits, and cognitive function in patients after long-term cure of acromegaly.
DESIGN:

This was a cross-sectional study.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:

We studied 68 patients after long-term cure (13±1 yr) of acromegaly and 68 matched controls. We compared these data with 60 patients treated for nonfunctioning pituitary macroadenomas (NFMAs) and 60 matched controls. Psychopathology was assessed using the Apathy Scale, Irritability Scale, Hospital Anxiety and Depression Scale, and Mood and Anxiety Symptoms Questionnaire short-form, and personality was assessed by the Dimensional Assessment of Personality Pathology short-form (DAPPs). Cognitive function was assessed by 11 tests.
RESULTS:

Compared with matched controls, patients cured from acromegaly scored significantly worse on virtually all psychopathology questionnaires and on several subscales of the DAPPs. Compared with NFMA patients, patients cured from acromegaly scored worse on negative affect (P=0.050) and somatic arousal (P=0.009) and seven of 18 subscales of the DAPPs (P<0.05). Cognitive function in patients cured from acromegaly did not differ from matched controls or patients treated for NFMA.
CONCLUSION:

Patients with long-term cure of acromegaly show a higher prevalence of psychopathology and maladaptive personality traits but not cognitive dysfunction, compared with matched controls and patients treated for NFMA. These results suggest irreversible effects of previous GH excess, rather than effects of pituitary adenomas per se and/or their treatment, on the central nervous system.

I find the above disconcerting because I came to think of Gigantism/Acromegaly as this really huge guys with deformed limbs due to the photos that get shared around. Then, when I studied it for "primary health care" purposes where they train you how to suspect something, I read cases and saw that it is really not that straightforward. I'm attaching a photo with a woman with acromegaly as one example.

That made me think of a discussion I had with an "old school" (clinical-eye trained) endocrinologist. We were both seeing a young woman with polycystic ovary syndrome. She was so no my stereotype of a woman with the disease! So I asked about it, clearly, I needed a reality check. He quoted me some research where it was explained that sometimes a woman might look physically okay, and yet have a severe hormonal imbalance. Other women might look very ill physically and yet have minimal hormonal imbalance. Yet in both cases, there was a background hormonal issue. This woman we saw was very skinny and tall, while typically these are women with insulin resistance with a tendency to gain weight easily. Her main complaint symptom was excess hair growth.

Anyway, Acromegaly is very difficult to diagnose because you have to suspect it and ask for past photos to compare the differences. Most people get diagnosed rather late, like after a lifetime with the disease. More info on Gigantism:

_http://endocrine.niddk.nih.gov/pubs/acro/acro.aspx

Acromegaly is a hormonal disorder that results from too much growth hormone (GH) in the body. The pituitary, a small gland in the brain, makes GH. In acromegaly, the pituitary produces excessive amounts of GH. Usually the excess GH comes from benign, or noncancerous, tumors on the pituitary. These benign tumors are called adenomas.

Acromegaly is most often diagnosed in middle-aged adults, although symptoms can appear at any age. If not treated, acromegaly can result in serious illness and premature death. Acromegaly is treatable in most patients, but because of its slow and often "sneaky" onset, it often is not diagnosed early or correctly. The most serious health consequences of acromegaly are type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, increased risk of cardiovascular disease, and arthritis. Patients with acromegaly are also at increased risk for colon polyps, which may develop into colon cancer if not removed.

When GH-producing tumors occur in childhood, the disease that results is called gigantism rather than acromegaly. A child's height is determined by the length of the so-called long bones in the legs. In response to GH, these bones grow in length at the growth plates—areas near either end of the bone. Growth plates fuse after puberty, so the excessive GH production in adults does not result in increased height. However, prolonged exposure to excess GH before the growth plates fuse causes increased growth of the long bones and thus increased height. Pediatricians may become concerned about this possibility if a child's growth rate suddenly and markedly increases beyond what would be predicted by previous growth and how tall the child's parents are.

[Top]_http://endocrine.niddk.nih.gov/pubs/acro/acro.aspx

What are the symptoms of acromegaly?

The name acromegaly comes from the Greek words for "extremities" and "enlargement," reflecting one of its most common symptoms-the abnormal growth of the hands and feet. Swelling of the hands and feet is often an early feature, with patients noticing a change in ring or shoe size, particularly shoe width. Gradually, bone changes alter the patient's facial features: The brow and lower jaw protrude, the nasal bone enlarges, and the teeth space out.

Overgrowth of bone and cartilage often leads to arthritis. When tissue thickens, it may trap nerves, causing carpal tunnel syndrome, which results in numbness and weakness of the hands. Body organs, including the heart, may enlarge.

Other symptoms of acromegaly include

joint aches
thick, coarse, oily skin
skin tags
enlarged lips, nose, and tongue
deepening of the voice due to enlarged sinuses and vocal cords
sleep apnea-breaks in breathing during sleep due to obstruction of the airway
excessive sweating and skin odor
fatigue and weakness
headaches
impaired vision
abnormalities of the menstrual cycle and sometimes breast discharge in women
erectile dysfunction in men
decreased libido

[Top]
What causes acromegaly?

Acromegaly is caused by prolonged overproduction of GH by the pituitary gland. The pituitary produces several important hormones that control body functions such as growth and development, reproduction, and metabolism. But hormones never seem to act simply and directly. They usually "cascade" or flow in a series, affecting each other's production or release into the bloodstream.

GH is part of a cascade of hormones that, as the name implies, regulates the physical growth of the body. This cascade begins in a part of the brain called the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus makes hormones that regulate the pituitary. One of the hormones in the GH series, or "axis," is growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH), which stimulates the pituitary gland to produce GH.

Secretion of GH by the pituitary into the bloodstream stimulates the liver to produce another hormone called insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I). IGF-I is what actually causes tissue growth in the body. High levels of IGF-I, in turn, signal the pituitary to reduce GH production.

The hypothalamus makes another hormone called somatostatin, which inhibits GH production and release. Normally, GHRH, somatostatin, GH, and IGF-I levels in the body are tightly regulated by each other and by sleep, exercise, stress, food intake, and blood sugar levels. If the pituitary continues to make GH independent of the normal regulatory mechanisms, the level of IGF-I continues to rise, leading to bone overgrowth and organ enlargement. High levels of IGF-I also cause changes in glucose (sugar) and lipid (fat) metabolism and can lead to diabetes, high blood pressure, and heart disease.

I'm thinking that perhaps Growth Hormone in animal foods has had a role in the increasing stature in the US. But not only on stature, but also psychopathology such as paranoid delusions and so forth. I've read cases where the first clinical symptom of Acromegaly are mood problems. Then they get a brain scan and then blood tests and there it is, a Growth hormone producing tumor. Other symptoms includes laziness and a sleepiness tendency.

It is hard to tell, but clearly, the food we eat has a clear impact on our health.

 

[Sol Logos]

I noticed when I worked at high schools in Australia the average size of the adult teachers always appeared to be less than the kids over around 15 YO. I went to dozens of schools being an on-call casual relief teacher. It was just something I noticed and I always put it down to growth hormones given to animals as well, especially in the dairy industry considering you'd see a lot of kids guzzling down milk.

But what got me thinking about other factors is that large humans weren't a recent occurrence, there seems to be a fair bit of evidence that times past had a lot of large humans as well. Hormones couldn't have been a factor then. Climate might have been a factor I suppose, but today's climate I don't believe is more conducive to growth than say 50 years ago (if there is an actual increase in human size over that time, which is hard to tell without real data).

I'm wondering if there's an emotional factor, say would a particular type of high or low self worth fostered and reinforced through childhood effect how one grows? Just a thought.

Anyhow, in reference to past giants, below is a list of recent findings of large humans by Jonathan Gray. I don't know how many might be hoaxes but I wouldn't say all.

NORTH AMERICA

1. ALEUTIAN ISLANDS:
Ivan T. Sanderson, a well-known zoologist and frequent guest on the Johnny Carson Tonight Show, received a letter from an engineer stationed on Shemy Island in the Aleutians during World War II. While building an airstrip, his crew bulldozed a group of hills and discovered under several sedimentary layers what appeared to be human remains. The Alaskan mound was in fact a graveyard of gigantic human remains consisting of crania and long leg bones.

The crania measured from 22 to 24 inches from base to crown. Since an adult skull normally measures about 8 inches from back to front, such large crania would imply an immense size for a normally proportioned human. Furthermore, every skull was said to have been neatly trepanned (a process of cutting a hole in the upper portion of the skull).

In fact, the habit of flattening the skull of an infant and forcing it to grow in an elongated shape was a practice used by ancient Peruvians, Maya, and the Flathead Indians of Montana, North America.

Sanderson tried to gather further proof, eventually receiving a letter from another member of the unit who confirmed the report. The letters both indicated that the Smithsonian Institution had collected the remains, yet nothing else was heard. Sanderson asks: "… is it that these people cannot face rewriting all the text books?" (David Hatcher Childress, World Explorers Club)

2. MINNESOTA, USA:
"Day before yesterday, while the quarrymen, employed by the Sauk Rapids Water Power Company, were engaged in quarrying rock for the dam which is being erected across the Mississippi at this place, they found imbedded in the solid granite rock the remains of a human being of gigantic stature. About seven feet below the surface of the ground, and about three and a half beneath the upper stratum of rock, the remains were found imbedded in the sand, which had evidently been placed in the quadrangular grave which had been dug out of solid rock to receive the last remains of this antediluvian giant. The grave was twelve feet in length, four feet wide, and about three feet in depth, and is to-day at least two feet below the present level of the river. The remains are completely petrified, and are of gigantic dimensions. The head is massive, measures thirty-one and one half inches in circumference, but low in the os frontis, and very flat on the top. The femur measures twenty-six and a quarter inches, and the fibula twenty-five and a half, while the body is equally long in proportion. From the crown of the head to the sole of the foot, the length is ten feet nine and a half inches. The measure around the chest is fifty-nine and a half inches. This giant must have weighed at least nine hundred pounds, when covered with a reasonable amount of flesh." (The Sauk Rapids Sentinel, Minn, USA)

3. OREGON, USA:
In Sea Lion Cave, Oregon, USA, the ancient body of a man was found in the fetal position. The remains are of a man who stood 12 feet tall.

4. TENNESSEE RIVER, USA:
In one of his books, Harold T. Wilkins quotes excerpts from the publication American Antiquities regarding the finding of human footprints 16 inches long, in solid rock at the headwaters of the Tennessee River near Braystown. The prints are unique in that they contain six toes! One print more pronounced than the rest is of a heel ball measuring 13 inches (33 centimeters) across!

Here are samples of other finds:

U.S.A:

5. NORTH CAROLINA:
remains of 8 foot and 9 foot men - 1874 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.108)

6. WALKERTON, INDIANA:
Eight giants 8 to 9 feet tall, all in copper armour - 1925 (Frank Edwards, Strange World, p.98)

7. LAKE DELAVAN, WISCONSIN:
Skeletons of giant humans in an ancient mound - 1912 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.109)

8. WESTERN MISSOURI:
Skeletons with headbones of monstrous size and a lower jaw twice the size of modern man. The thigh bone looked like that of the horse, for size. Found in mounds - 1875 (Arnold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, pp. 33,195)

9. ELLISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA:
human skeleton 8 feet in length - 1886 (Brad Steiger Worlds Before Our Own, p.56)

10. TIOGA POINT, PENNSYLVANIA:
Bones of 68 men, 7 feet and taller (Ibid., p.55)

Through the bungling of diggers and the complete disinterest of the scientific establishment, many such finds have now been scattered and lost. I also wonder if some of them have ended up in secret vaults of the Smithsonian Institution.

11. FLORIDA:
Skeletons 8 feet long, in the sand of an island off Southern Florida - 1936 (Ibid., p.55)

12. CRITTENDON, ARIZONA:
A huge stone sarcophagus containing a granite mummy case (carved in the likeness of the body), for the body of a human more than 12 feet tall, who had 6 toes on each foot - 1891 (Frank Edwards, Stranger Than Science, p.78)

13. WINSLOW, ARIZONA:
An unbelievably enormous skull contained a gold tooth - confirming it as the skull of a giant man (Brad Steiger Worlds Before Our Own, p.52)

14. SPRING VALLEY, NEVADA:
A giant's leg (from knee to heel 39 inches), indicating a man 12 feet tall - 1887 (Peter Kolosimo, Not of This World, p.134)

15. CARSON CITY, NEVADA:
Human footprints 18 inches, 19 inches and 21 inches long, indicating heights of up to 12 feet - 1883 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.50)

16. LOVELOCK, NEVADA:
Skeletons found in the Humboldt lake bed near the Lovelock cave were 8½ feet long and almost 10 feet long (Lovelock Preview-Miner, June 19, 1931)

17. WHITE SANDS, NEW MEXICO:
Perfectly imprinted human footprints 22 inches long and 8 to 10 inches wide, in gypsum rock (twice the size of present day prints); the person was wearing a type of moccasin or sandal and appeared to be using a cane - 1932 (U.S. Department of the Interior Booklet, The Story of the Great White Sands)

18. PALUXY RIVER, TEXAS:
Human footprints 21 inches long walking with a stride of 7 feet, under a waterfall - 1973 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, pp.49-50; John C. Whitcomb & Henry M. Morris, The Genesis Flood, p.175)

19. CHALK MOUNTAIN, TEXAS:
Remains of a 7 foot woman in a cave - 1974 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.109)

20. COLORADO DESERT:
Relics of a civilisation whose men were 8 or 9 feet tall - 1947

21. BEAR CREEK, MONTANA:
Two enormous molars 3 times as large as present day ones, in a coal mine - 1926 (Peter Kolosimo, Not of This World, p.134; Frank Edwards, Stranger Than Science, p.77)

22. COOS BAY, OREGON:
Human footprint 16 inches long and 7 inches wide - 1976

23. PARKERSBURG, WEST VIRGINIA:
Imprint of human foot 14 ½ inches long - 1896 (The American Anthropologist, Vol.IX, 1896)

24. NORTH ALASKA:
A ring was taken from a giant frozen man found under the ice by prospectors

25. MINNESOTA:
Giant skeleton with double rows of teeth

26. DRESBACH, MINNESOTA:
Bones of men over 8 feet tall (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.53)

27. LA CRESCENT, MINNESOTA:
Bones of "men of huge stature"

28. CLEARWATER, MINNESOTA:
"Unusually large skeletons" of seven people buried head down (Ibid., p.54)

29. PINE CITY, MINNESOTA:
A skeleton of "gigantic size" (Ibid., p.54)

30. CHATFIELD, MINNESOTA:
Six skeletons "of enormous size" (Ibid., p.54)

31. WARREN, MINNESOTA:
Ten skeletons "of both sexes and of gigantic size" (Ibid., p.54)

32. LOMPOCK RANCHO, CALIFORNIA:
Soldiers digging a pit for a powder magazine hacked their way through a layer of cemented gravel, to come upon a skeleton of a man 12 feet (3.6 meters) tall. The skeleton was surrounded by carved shells, huge axes, and stone blocks covered in symbols. The giant had 2 rows of teeth. When local Indians began to attach religious significance to the finds, the authorities ordered it to be secretly buried - 1933 (Frank Edwards, Stranger Than Science, p.77)

33. SANTA ROSA ISLAND, CALIFORNIA:
Giant man with double rows of teeth (Ibid., p.77)

34. DEATH VALLEY, CALIFORNIA:
Fossilised remains of a 7½ foot woman - 1898 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.107)

35. BRIDLEVALE FALLS, CALIFORNIA:
Skeleton of a woman in a tomb, who in life was 7 feet in height. (Her male companion would have been 8 feet tall.) (Ibid., pp.107-108)

36. CASCADE MOUNTAINS:
Bones of giant humans on the floor of a copper lined tunnel

We may well wonder what becomes of these remains after they are found. Perhaps the following two incidents are typical.

37. SANTA BARBARA, CALIFORNIA:
A cave full of giant skeletons was found by telephone employees near Santa Barbara, California. Unfortunately, the cave entrance was sealed shut before proper excavation could be conducted.

38. SANTA CRUZ ISLAND, CALIFORNIA:
A giant skeleton on Santa Cruz Island, California, was sent to the National Science Foundation in Washington, D.C., where it was promptly "misplaced".

39. CALIFORNIA:
Austin Cooke of Lillian Rock, N.S.W., Australia, reports having seen a 10 foot human skeleton in a Californian museum.

Evolutionary anthropologists generally hate giants, because they upset their pet theories. However, the evidence points to physical degeneration, and not evolutionary improvement, as the story of life on Earth. Giants prove that the Bible account of history is the true one. And that's not a popular concept with men whose hearts are at enmity against the idea of God. The Bible theme is that we are a fallen race and lost, with no future - unless we accept our need of God and salvation through His Son.

CENTRAL AMERICA:

40. SAYOPA, SONORA, MEXICO:
Old cemetery of humans averaging 8 feet in height - 1930 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, pp.54-55)

41. MEXICO:
When the local population showed the Spaniards some monstrous human bones, Hernan Cortes sent one to his sovereign. It was a femur itself as high as a normal man.

42. TEPIC, MEXICO:
Seven skeletons of men and women 8 to 9 feet tall - 1938 (Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, p.192)

43. MEXICO CITY:
Enormous human bones found - 16th Century (Ibid., p.191)

44. EL BOQUIN, NICARAGUA:
Skeleton of a man whose "ribs are a yard long and 4 inches wide and the shin bone is too heavy for one man to carry" - 1936 (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.55)

SOUTH AMERICA:

45. SOUTH AMERICA:
Monstrous bones, including a femur as high as a normal present-day man (Peter Kolosimo, Not of This World, p.133)

46. SAN JULIAN:
Men over 8 feet tall seen by Drake and later explorers - 1578 onward (Ibid., p.133)

47. SOUTH AMERICAN COAST:
Living men up to 11 feet-8 inches encountered by some travellers, and skeletons of similar length seen by others - 1615 (Ibid., p.133)

48. MANTA, ECUADOR:
Bones of giants "of huge greatness" - 1560 (Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, pp.191-192)

49. MANTA, ECUADOR:
Skeletons of 8 foot giants found in a cave behind great stalagmites - 1928 (Ibid., pp.33,192)

50. CUZCO, PERU:
A tomb was found containing huge human bones - 1560 (Ibid., p.191)

51. TIAHUANACO, BOLIVIA:
Skulls are on display in the museum between the Puerta del Sol and the templete (half-buried temple). The skulls are of men who were at least 10 feet tall. One skull is 14 inches wide and high. (Robert Charroux, Lost Worlds, p.54)

52. PATAGONIA, ARGENTINA:
Men twice the height of today's average humans were seen by Magellan's men - 1520 (Peter Kolosimo, Not of This World, p.133)

53. PATAGONIA:
A tribe of men up to 9 foot-9 inches was reported in the interior by Spanish authorities (1712) and again by the English Byron (1764) (Ibid.)

ASIA:

54. JAVA, INDONESIA:
Bones of men who were 9 feet tall and who weighed 600 to 700 pounds (four times as big as modern man) - 1944

55. GARGAYAN, PHILIPPINES:
A human skeleton 17 feet tall (Peter Kolosimo, Timeless Earth, p.30)

56. SOUTH-EAST CHINA:
Bones of humans over 10 feet tall (Ibid., p.30)

57. HONG KONG and CHINA:
Teeth 6 times greater in volume than those of modern man, standing in chemist shops for use as powder aphrodisiacs, indicating giants of 13 feet height - 1937 to 1941

The giant teeth found in China by the German-Dutch palaeontologist G.H.R. von Koenigswald around 1935 in a Chinese herbal shop, were dubbed "dragon's teeth". Various authorities who studied them noticed that they bore a striking resemblance to human teeth, but they were twice as big.

The owner of the teeth, they calculated, would have had to have been around 11.8 feet (3.6 meters) tall - and would have weighed in at 694 pounds (315 kilograms).

As a result, some paleontologists were led to speculate that modern humans might have descended from "giant" ancestors. Modern science, however, was adamant that the teeth were from "giant extinct apes".

John Mount, writing in Nexus magazine (August-September, 2001) comments:

"Isn't it laughable that, ever since Darwin's time, science has been trying to make a man out of a monkey? Now, faced with the possibility of giant humans, they are trying to make monkeys out of men!"

58. LHASA, TIBET:
Three gold figures in open coffins, nude, two males, one female. Every line, every mark faithfully reproduced by the gold. But the size! The female quite 10 feet long, and the larger of the two males not under 15 feet (Serge Hutin, Fantastic Civilizations, p.124)

59. CEYLON:
Remains of men who were 13 feet tall (Peter Kolosimo, Timeless Earth, p.30)

60. TURA, ASSAM, INDIA:
A human skeleton 11 feet tall (Ibid., p.31)

61. SIMLA, HINDOSTAN:
Human footprints 24 inches long and 11 inches wide, suggesting a man 14 feet tall - 1938 (Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, p.194)

62. NORTHERN ISRAEL:
Fossilised skeletons of a race of giants found both in strata and in caves

63. TURKEY:
I have personally handled a human fingerbone which is twice the length of the average adult bone today.

64. TURKEY:
In the Hittite Museum in Ankara, Turkey, I tracked down a report by a museum guide that he had seen an 18 foot granite sarcophagus in a back room of the museum.

65. TURKEY:
Some time ago, on the reception counter of the Erzurum Hotel in Dogubayazit, where we stay on trips to Turkey, a giant human skull was put on display. You could insert your whole head inside its jaws!

66. TURKEY:
In the late 1950's, during road construction in south-east Turkey (in the Euphrates Valley), many tombs were uncovered, which contained the remains of giant humans.

At two sites the leg bones were measured to be about 120 centimeters (47.24 inches).

Joe Taylor, Director of the Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum, in Crosbyton, Texas, was commissioned to sculpt an anatomically correct, and to scale, human femur of one of these ancient men.

This giant stood some 14-16 feet tall, and had 20-22 inch long feet. His or her finger tips, with arms to their sides, would be about 6 feet above the ground.

AFRICA:

67. NORTH OF N.GUIGMI, AFRICA:
Skeleton more than 8 feet tall

68. A NECROPOLIS in the SAHARA:
Graves 20 feet long containing men 9 to 10 feet in height (Robert Charroux, The Mysterious Unknown, p.107)

69. LAKE ELYASI, CENTRAL AFRICA:
Bones of gigantic men - 1936

70. TAUNGS, CAPE PROVINCE, SOUTH AFRICA:
Among remains of extinct baboons, antelopes and lizards "larger than any living types" was found a fossil man described as "a near giant" - 1947

EUROPE:

71. CAUSASUS MOUNTAINS, U.S.S.R.
Skeletons of men 9 feet 1 inch to 10 feet 2 inches found by Soviet anthropologists (Peter Kolosimo, Not of This World, pp.134-135)

72. NORWAY:
Tremendous human arm, leg and head bones (Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, p.194)

73. FRANCE:
Bones found under a dolmen, of men 8 feet 6 inches to 10 feet tall (Peter Kolosimo, Timeless Earth, p.31)

74. SPAIN:
A 22 foot skeleton was found in 1705 and the thigh bone preserved at Valencia, Spain (Brad Steiger, Worlds Before Our Own, p.51)

75. VALENCIA, SPAIN:
Another skeleton was found, the skull of which allegedly held a bushel of corn (Ibid., p.51)

76. ITALY:
A body exhumed in Calabria measured 18 Roman feet. Average weight of the molars was one ounce (Ibid., pp.51-52)

77. SCOTLAND:
The bones of a 14 foot man were preserved for many years in Scotland (Ibid., p.52)

78. ENGLAND:
The fossilised body of a man 12 feet 2 inches tall was propped up in a London railway station in 1895

We actually have a photograph of this one. It was propped up for viewing against a 19th century railway carriage. It totally dwarfed the back of the railway carriage.

An extract and photograph from the British Strand magazine of December 1895, reprinted in W.G. Wood-Martin's book Traces of the Elder Faiths of Ireland, mentions this fossilised giant that had been found during mining operations in County Antrim, Ireland:

"Pre-eminent among the most extraordinary articles ever held by a railway company is the fossilised Irish giant, which is at this moment lying at the London and North-Western Railway
Company's Broad-street goods depot, and a photograph of which is reproduced here…

"This monstrous figure is reputed to have been dug up by a Mr Dyer whilst prospecting for iron ore in County Antrim. The principal measurements are: entire length, 12 feet 2 inches; girth of chest, 6 feet 6 inches; and length of arms, 4 feet 6 inches. There are six toes on the right foot. The gross weight is 2 tons 15 cwt; so that it took half a dozen men and a powerful crane to place this article of lost property in position for the Strand magazine artist.

"Dyer, after showing the giant in Dublin, came to England with his queer find and exhibited it in Liverpool and Manchester at sixpence a head, attracting scientific men as well as gaping sightseers. Business increased and the showman induced a man named Kershaw to purchase a share in the concern. In 1876, Dyer sent his giant from Manchester to London by rail; the sum of £4 2s 6d being charged for carriage by the company, but never paid.

"Evidently Kershaw knew nothing of the removal of the 'show', for when he discovered it he followed in hot haste, and, through a firm of London solicitors, moved the Court of Chancery to issue an order restraining the company from parting with the giant, until the action between Dyer and himself to determine the ownership was disposed of. The action was never brought to an issue."

Unfortunately we don't know what happened after this.

It is unfortunate that such finds often disappear and we never hear of them again.

Thankfully, a reporter took a photograph.

AUSTRALIA:

79. UPPER MACLEAY RIVER, NSW:
Footprint 14½ inches from toe to beginning of instep; another with a 4 inch toe and total toe span of 10 inches, suggesting a body height of 17 feet

80. COWRA, NSW:
Fossilised print preserved in mudstone, 2 feet 5 inches in length by 15 inches across the toes

81. BATHURST, NSW:
Prospectors working in the Bathurst district in the 1930s frequently reported coming across numerous large human footprints fossilised in shoals of red jasper.

82. BATHURST, NSW:
Even more impressive were fossil deposits found by well known naturalist Rex Gilroy around Bathurst. He excavated from a depth of 6 feet (2 meters) below the surface a fossil lower black molar tooth measuring 67 mm In length by 50 mm x 42 mm across the crown. If his measurements are correct, the owner would have been at least 25 feet tall, weighing well over 1,000 lbs!

83. GYMPIE, QUEENSLAND:
A farmer, Keith Walker, was ploughing his field when he turned up the large fragment of the back portion of a jaw which still possessed the hollow for a missing lower black molar tooth. This is now in Rex Gilroy's possession. (Rex, by the way, currently operates a butterfly museum near Tamworth, NSW.) The owner of the tooth would have stood at 10 feet tall.

84. BLUE MOUNTAINS, NSW:
In the Megalong Valley in the Blue Mountains, a Mr P. Holman found in ironstone protruding from a creek bank the deeply impressed print of a large human-like foot. The print was that of the instep, with all 5 toes clearly shown. This footprint measures 7 inches across the toes. Had the footprint been complete it would have been at least 2 feet (60 centimeters) in length, appropriate to a 12 foot human. However, the largest footprint found on the Blue Mountains could only have belonged to a man 20 feet tall!

85. PENRITH, NSW:
A set of 3 huge footprints was discovered near Mulgoa, south of Penrith. These prints, each measuring 2 feet long and 7 inches across the toes, are 6 feet apart, indicating the stride of the 12 foot giant who left them. These prints were preserved by volcanic lava and ash flows which "occurred millions of years" before man is supposed to have appeared on the Australian continent (if one is to believe the evolutionary theory)!

86. KEMPSEY, NSW:
Noel Reeves found monstrous footprints near Kempsey, in sandstone beds on the Upper Macleay River. One print shows a toe 4 inches (10 centimeters) long and the total toe-span is 10 inches (25 centimeters) - suggesting that the owner of the print may have been 17 feet tall.

87. BATHURST and DUBBO, NSW:
A fossicker searching the Winburndale River north of Bathurst discovered a large quartzitised fossil human molar tooth, far too big for any normal modern man. A similar find was made near Dubbo.

88. GYMPIE, QUEENSLAND:
Human jaw, consistent with a body height of 10 feet

NEW ZEALAND and PACIFIC:

89. NORTH ISLAND, NZ:
In the Urewera country skulls have been found (in caves) which measure 18 inches (45 centimeters) in width

90. NORTH ISLAND, NZ:
Mrs Yvonne Stevens, Auckland, reports that there are graves on the Coromandel Peninsula containing skeletons about 12 feet long.

91. NAN MADOL, CAROLINE ISLANDS:
An old Pohnpei native told David Hatcher Childress that he had found a human femur in the jungle that was "twice as big as a normal man's." (David Hatcher Childress, Ancient Micronesia, p.34)

92. KIRIBATI:
On 16 islands in the Kiribatis, are human footprints impressed into rock when it was soft. Most have 6 toes on each foot. The largest are up to 3 feet long, and very clear, with the toes, heels and outline distinct, and indicate people up to 12 feet tall. (David Hatcher Childress, Lost Cities of Ancient Lumeria and the Pacific, p.193)

93. NEW ZEALAND:
On Waiheke Island, about 1980, Frank Drumm was clearing land for a lifestyle subdivision near the Auckland River flats. He accidentally uncovered human skeletons 9 to 12 feet in length. He hastily "covered them up. I was scared witless," he said.

94. NEW ZEALAND:
George Ford of Warkworth reported to me that during a visit to Great Barrier Island he was given the location of a cave near Rangiwhakaea Bay, which contains giant skeletons. I possess a map of the location and hope to organise an expedition.

95. NEW ZEALAND:
In the Karangahake George, Rex and Heather Gilroy uncovered human footprints up to 18½ inches (46 centimeters) in length by 12 inches (29.5 centimeters) wide across the toes and 9½ inches (24 centimeters) wide at the heel. March 2000

96. FIJI:
In Fiji, I was told by Vasiti Ritova of the Daily Post that during digging in the Sigatoka sand dunes, there was uncovered a forearm as long as the total length of my arm from fingers to shoulder. Then progressively, remains of men, women and children were found, who were giants. Work continued until 1992.

96. ROTUMA:
We are currently preparing for an expedition to the remote, unspoilt Pacific Island of Rotuma. Just 14 kilometers long, and volcanic, this beautiful island was once home to a race of giants. When the only road was built in 1927, the labourers uncovered an old cemetery containing bones of a size that indicated they belonged to bodies at least 12 feet tall. They quickly and fearfully re-buried all the bones and changed the course of the road. Coast guards on top of Mount Sororoa were building a watch house. As they dug holes for the corner posts, they uncovered shin bones over 3 feet (1 meter) long. Again, only a 12 foot man would have leg bones that size.

97. ROTUMA:
In 1984, Kijian Taksas was supervising the digging of a new grave. The workers unearthed an ancient shin bone. Kijian placed one end of it on the ground and measured to her hip bone - almost 3 feet long.

The other day I received a phone call from a man asking if I could track down a German scientific report of 25 foot human remains having been found in Germany.

Frankly, we don't know for sure the size of the largest humans of the past. Remains suggesting 12 to 15 feet are fairly common, but clues suggesting 20 to 25 feet also crop up from time to time.

In N.S.W., Australia, museum curator Rex Gilroy has discovered and photographed indisputably human footprints (now fossilized) which would indicate, in proportion, an individual who stood 25 feet tall!

 

[Atuya]

I agree, interesting topic. In my case, I am in inch taller than my father, who is an inch taller than my grandfather. We are all pretty lean, except my father has developed a pretty serious 'wheat belly' in the last fifteen years.

Could it also be related to physical environments and spaces? Americans, besides SAD nutrition, have undoubtedly large living spaces: houses, gardens, bedrooms, schools, stores, automobiles, parks, etc... And on average, lower population densities. More so than europeans, though that seems to be changing.

I'd hate to see what a suburban area, full of Walmarts and BurgerKings and car parks, designed for twenty foot humans would look like!

 

[Gertrudes]

Yes, interesting topic.

But what got me thinking about other factors is that large humans weren't a recent occurrence, there seems to be a fair bit of evidence that times past had a lot of large humans as well. Hormones couldn't have been a factor then. Climate might have been a factor I suppose, but today's climate I don't believe is more conducive to growth than say 50 years ago (if there is an actual increase in human size over that time, which is hard to tell without real data).

True, research shows that since the beginning of agriculture human health has degenerated, brains have shrunk, teeth began to deteriorate, we see more, and new diseases, and skeletons have gotten smaller. However, right now have we really gotten bigger, or have we simply swollen up and gotten more pumped? I'm pending to the latter. My working hypothesis is that we may have gotten more inflamed and forcefully pumped by constant injections of hormones and chemicals that are hiding in our food and water, and which have caused complete havoc on our bodies. We may be bigger, but perhaps from a different root cause?

So, yes, I agree with growth hormones in food playing a big role in this change of height. If they make food grow, and we eat it, wouldn't it be natural for us to grow similarly?

When I first moved into London, I was surprised by two things. First of all, the amount of junk food people ate. Back home, in my little town, the first McDonald's appeared when I was 15, and due to having been used to home made food, with free range and grass fed meats, fresh fish, and plenty of organ meat, I immediately developed an aversion to fast food. Still, and perhaps due to this shared cultural backround, the fast food industry hasn't grown much where I come from. As far as I'm aware, people in general still tend to prefer "real food".

What a shock I had when upon arriving here I saw entire families going out for lunch at McDonald's! Obviously now I have gotten used to seeing it, it no longer shocks me, but I've got to admit that seeing people gobble up food at fast food shops as if there were no tomorrow still makes me feel nauseous....

The other thing that surprised me were people's size. They were huge! Ok, fine, I'm not the tallest person in the world, but still.
At first I thought that it was simply due to a different genetic background, however, as time went by, I began to suspect that that was not the sole reason. Rather than looking big, some people passed me the feeling of being pumped and swollen, exactly like the supermarket meat that looks so fake and that once cooked, melts into water until you get about half the size of what you bought.

That made me think of a discussion I had with an "old school" (clinical-eye trained) endocrinologist. We were both seeing a young woman with polycystic ovary syndrome. She was so no my stereotype of a woman with the disease! So I asked about it, clearly, I needed a reality check. He quoted me some research where it was explained that sometimes a woman might look physically okay, and yet have a severe hormonal imbalance. Other women might look very ill physically and yet have minimal hormonal imbalance. Yet in both cases, there was a background hormonal issue. This woman we saw was very skinny and tall, while typically these are women with insulin resistance with a tendency to gain weight easily. Her main complaint symptom was excess hair growth.

That is precisely my case, I am rather thin and have PCOS. Unfortunately I haven't managed to find my research notes on PCOS, but from what I remember there are 3 types of it, the most common being associated with obesity and insulin resistance. I can't remember about the second type, but the third one, where I belong to, is the least common and manifests in thin women who often suffer from adrenal stress and burnout.
Anyway, sorry for going off topic here! This caught my attention since it is something in which I have been delving into a lot lately.

 

[Gaby]

That is precisely my case, I am rather thin and have PCOS. Unfortunately I haven't managed to find my research notes on PCOS, but from what I remember there are 3 types of it, the most common being associated with obesity and insulin resistance. I can't remember about the second type, but the third one, where I belong to, is the least common and manifests in thin women who often suffer from adrenal stress and burnout.
Anyway, sorry for going off topic here! This caught my attention since it is something in which I have been delving into a lot lately.

Yeah! And from that conversation I realized I had probably suffered from PCOS most of my life. Anyway, upwards and onwards towards healing and hormone balancing. :)

 

[rrraven]

Yeah! And from that conversation I realized I had probably suffered from PCOS most of my life. Anyway, upwards and onwards towards healing and hormone balancing. :)

yeah same here and I can see the genetic connection too
my mother was tall and somewhat bearded and had menstrual issues all her life...
I am her only child she had at 39
we,I my daughter and my mum,all have a deep masculine voice...and the same shoe size women 11 1/2 !!! or mens 8
all my kids were very hairy newborns ,cowlicks,those twirly wirlys,on their shoulders,sideburns...

my daughters daughter is 1 1/2 and is so far a chipp of the old block.....

so how can we help her not to get so hairy?

how does one keep hormones from getting unbalanced in the first place ?

besides the hassel of having to shave I have had non of the reproductive issues connected with PCOS and neither has my daughter
but we like to sleep in the dark and she was raised on 12V power and candlelight
so its back to light pollution
lucifer the light bringer
promising a "easy life" just flick the switch
but at what price

 

[Gaby]

so how can we help her not to get so hairy?

how does one keep hormones from getting unbalanced in the first place ?

Even if we are too many unhealthy generations of “Pottenger’s cats” into the Big Agra Revolution, it is equally important to give the diet a chance and give ourselves the opportunity to effect epigenetic changes through a diet in which humanity thrived for most of its history and which we haven’t tried for thousands of years. Its benefit to our health has been profound, as many here have witnessed :) We can “control” our genome through our food rather than being controlled by it. There is indeed hope! If you haven't had the chance, I would keep a tab on these threads as more info and data comes out:

"Life Without Bread"
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22916.0.html

Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.0.html

 

[Chu]

I have a cousin who went to live to the U.S. when he was young. The rest of us cousins, were raised up in Central America. This "American" cousin became disproportionately taller than any single person in the entire history of our family. I always thought it was all the junk food and artificial hormones in the fast food he ate.

Same here! All my relatives stayed in Argentina, except for one of my uncles and his 2 children, who went to live in Texas. Most of the family is normal-shortish. The tallest ones are not super tall either. But these two cousins became really tall (1,80m something for my female cousin, and almost 2m for my male cousin). Their bones seem bigger, and they don't have much body fat, they are just giant! I also thought it was linked to the diet and the pollutants in their case.

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Maybe this news has any connection with the subject?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57596606/german-baby-jasleen-born-13.5-pounds-without-c-section/
The mother had been diagnosed with gestational diabetes.

And there are other cases:

'Biggest baby' in world born in Juarez
http://www.elpasotimes.com/newupdated/ci_23893135/biggest-baby-world-born-juarez

British woman's weighty baby breaks Spanish record
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23605426

 

[FleaFlo]

I read Alchemst's post and have long thought that the Giants of the Old Testament in the Bible have returned: " There were giants [nephilim] on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown (Genesis 6:4)." and "The Anakim were mentioned in several of these passages. They were perhaps the best known of the giants dwelling in the land of Canaan at the time of the Exodus. As stated in the verse above, they were part of the nephilim. If nephilim simply refers to giants in general, then the Anakim are just said to be giants in Numbers 13:33, which is consistent with their description in this passage. So the Amorites and other giant people would also be nephilim. If nephilim refers to a particular giant tribe, then the Anakim were part of this line."

 

[Meg]

I read Alchemst's post and have long thought that the Giants of the Old Testament in the Bible have returned: " There were giants [nephilim] on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown (Genesis 6:4)." and "The Anakim were mentioned in several of these passages. They were perhaps the best known of the giants dwelling in the land of Canaan at the time of the Exodus. As stated in the verse above, they were part of the nephilim. If nephilim simply refers to giants in general, then the Anakim are just said to be giants in Numbers 13:33, which is consistent with their description in this passage. So the Amorites and other giant people would also be nephilim. If nephilim refers to a particular giant tribe, then the Anakim were part of this line."

Hi Fleaflo.

Seeing as this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief intro about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc. You can review other member's intros to get an idea. Welcome!

 

[davey72]

Fwiw- I went to one or two different schools/year growing up, and always remember the adults saying all my life that "the kids didn't look that that when i was young" I have noticed that in general every generation says this about the next.