Why are you single?

curiouskat said:
HOW DARE YOU

This is a paramoralism. You talk of free will and yet you "dare" to place limits (based in assumption and emotional thinking) on others' observations, with the suggestion that this is morally reprehensible.

COME TO A SAFE PLACE LIKE THIS AND JUDGE ME AND MY INTENTS?

There was no judgment, simply an observation that your post read like a pickup line.

YOU Anart....are acting nothing more than an STS taking my energy, feeding off of others.

This is a judgment, and a false one at that. Anart made an observation, one which appears to be true.

however I am condemning you today I have seen enough.

This is a judgment.

Who needs moderators anyway?...if this life is about FREE WILL you should hold no power here because it seems you don't believe anyone knows better than you. You treat this forum as a hierarchy...when all the Cs, Laura, your higher selves, and now me have told you there is none. There are 7 densities, but we are the c's, they are us...we are all ONE. I am moving to a forum with no moderators, and total freedom. if you erase this ..then you will be taking the FREE WILL from others to be given this option. Remember that.

Yes, this is a free will universe. STS has freedom to be STS. And we have freedom to create an environment where STS behavior is identified, and where those who are harmed by STS behavior CAN be safe. Free will does contain the "law of the jungle", which is what you are endorsing, but it also contains the possibility of learning and growth, which requires teaching. As Gurdjieff said, one cannot escape from prison without the help of one who has already done so.

Anyone is welcome to come to the google group and just talk.....I promise there will be no moderators dissecting every word and judging you. All are welcome.

That is your free will, if what you desire is to live a life completely identified with your own imaginings and self-justifications.
 
curiouskat said:
HOW DARE YOU COME TO A SAFE PLACE LIKE THIS AND JUDGE ME AND MY INTENTS?
<snip>

You have no idea who I am as a 28 year old awakened person and I am exposing you for your true self today.

I find it odd that you list your age here. I believe you mentioned your specific age in your intro post as well.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=16129.msg137133#msg137133
[quote author=ck]This is how I started and heard the call. I am a 27 year old female. I lost my mother when I was 14 through a long terrible ordeal with a brain tumor. It truly shocked me right out of my complacency with this physical world.[/quote]

Few people on here list their exact ages and most just put it under their profile, but don't blatently mention it in posts.

It's as if you have carried over the mentality from a dating website or service into this forum.

Then there was this comment in another thread to M.A.O. which sounded a little like a pick-up line too, although nobody mentioned it at the time.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=16509.msg146720#msg146720
[quote author=ck]I am only trying to learn and I love meeting old souls like you ;) [/quote]

Perhaps you are doing this unconsciously without realizing how a lot of what you say comes off as flirting. I think I've met people that are like this. I would say all the more scary if the filtering is unconscious for both your sake, curiouskat, and ours.

Just another observation, FWIW.
 
RyanX said:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=16509.msg146720#msg146720
[quote author=ck]I am only trying to learn and I love meeting old souls like you ;)

Perhaps you are doing this unconsciously without realizing how a lot of what you say comes off as flirting. I think I've met people that are like this. I would say all the more scary if the filtering is unconscious for both your sake, curiouskat, and ours.

Just another observation, FWIW.
[/quote]

Just wanted to say, curiouskat, that no one is judging you, because many people, especially women adopted this kind of communication style in order to survive. It masks a great deal of pain, fear and insecurity, especially if someone goes through such a traumatic event as you did during your puberty. And nothing wrong with that unless you use this kind of behavior to feed. And unfortunately, since such traumas leave a deep hole that has to be filed somehow, usually it is filled by manipulation and predator's feeding.

It IS a wound possible to heal though, but depends on you seeing it for what it is and wanting to change it of course.
 
Shijing - Seems like we can't escape from the little I's the ego and our programming but what we can do is recognize these things and try and mitigate them before they arise. Or when they do arise realize and take them for what they are and realize that it is not who we are. I believe that’s why most if not all of us are here to understand and better ourselves.

I find it very interesting that the C's say that all souls go to 5th density where they contemplate and think. Then they choose what density they want to go to and everyone here has chosen 3rd density. I could be way off but I am going to go out on a limb and say that we are here to recognize and overcome the programming, ego, 3D handicaps either that or simply just be human and experience it without any expectations. If we chose to be here and our souls knew what they were getting into then I feel that we chose to learn. Can't decide which one it is - to overcome or simply experience and recognize.
 
This reaction, so immediate and classic, is too good to pass up as an instructive example of what Lobaczewski called Paranoid Characteropathy. Read it and then read the excerpts about the paranoid characteropath I've extracted from Political Ponerology that follow.


curiouskat said:
"No offense, curiouskat, but this post, in this context, reads like a pick up line and nothing more."

NOTHING MORE????? You honestly posted that??

HOW DARE YOU COME TO A SAFE PLACE LIKE THIS AND JUDGE ME AND MY INTENTS?

This is a place to align with others who have heard some type of call, see the symbols in their lives, read books that have opened their minds. When I am here this is only a place where I can connect with others to know I am not so alone in this world, because as we know there are not alot of STO candidates as ...and I don't know why, but for some reason we are all drawn together to talk, learn and expand our knowledge. Nothing more.

YOU Anart....are acting nothing more than an STS taking my energy, feeding off of others. Posing in this forum as something more. You have taken my posts and OTHERS I am sure and have given no valued comments except telling me to "read up". I don't know what you story is , I judge no one until they show me with their behavior who they are, however I am condemning you today I have seen enough. You have no idea who I am as a 28 year old awakened person and I am exposing you for your true self today. Today I am holding a mirror in front of you. I see who you really are. And because of you, this place is no longer a safe one. Who needs moderators anyway?...if this life is about FREE WILL you should hold no power here because it seems you don't believe anyone knows better than you. You treat this forum as a hierarchy...when all the Cs, Laura, your higher selves, and now me have told you there is none. There are 7 densities, but we are the c's, they are us...we are all ONE. I am moving to a forum with no moderators, and total freedom. if you erase this ..then you will be taking the FREE WILL from others to be given this option. Remember that.

Anyone is welcome to come to the google group and just talk.....I promise there will be no moderators dissecting every word and judging you. All are welcome.

I am out. Take care everyone and have a happy journey!


Edit=Disable link

Lobaczewski in Political Ponerology said:
Paranoid character disorders: It is characteristic of paranoid behavior for people to be capable of relatively correct reasoning and discussion as long as the conversation involves minor differences of opinion. This stops abruptly when the partner’s arguments begin to undermine their overvalued ideas, crush their long-held stereotypes of reasoning, or force them to accept a conclusion they had subconsciously rejected before. Such a stimulus unleashes upon the partner a torrent of pseudo-logical, largely paramoralistic, often insulting utterances which always contain some degree of suggestion.

Utterances like these inspire aversion among cultivated and logical people, but they enslave less critical minds, e.g. people with other kinds of psychological deficiencies, who were earlier the objects of the egotistical influence of individuals with character disorders, and in particular a large part of the young.

A {working class person} may perceive this to be a kind of victory over higher-class people and thus take the paranoid person’s side. However, this is not the normal reaction among the common people, where perception of psychological reality occurs no less often than among intellectuals.

In sum then, the response of accepting paranoid argumentation is qualitatively more frequent in reverse proportion to the civilization level of the community in question, although it never approaches the majority. Nevertheless, paranoid individuals become aware of their enslaving influence through experience and attempt to take advantage thereof in a pathologically egotistic manner.

We know today that the psychological mechanism of paranoid phenomena is twofold: one is caused by damage to the brain tissue, the other is functional or behavioral. ... any brain-tissue lesion causes a certain degree of loosening of accurate thinking and, as a consequence, of the personality structure. ... Particularly during sleepless nights, runaway thoughts give rise to a paranoid changed view of human reality, as well as to ideas which can be either gently naive or violently revolutionary. Let us call this kind paranoid characteropathy.

In persons free of brain-tissue lesions, such phenomena most frequently occur as a result of being reared by people with paranoid characteropathia, along with the psychological terror of their childhood. Such psychological material is then assimilated creating the rigid stereotypes of abnormal experiencing. This makes it difficult for thought and world-view to develop normally, and the terror-blocked contents become transformed into permanent, functional, congestive centers.

Here Lobaczewski is discussing the role/interaction of such an individual in a group of people. A "ponerogenic union" in the first example below is a group that is already corrupted. What is important in this bit is the role of the paranoid characteropath in such a group.

PP said:
Within each ponerogenic union, a psychological structure is created which can be considered a counterpart or caricature of the normal structure of society or a societal organization.

Individuals with various psychological aberrations complement each other’s talents and characteristics. This structure is subjected to diachronic modification with regard to changes in the character of the association as whole. The earlier phase of the union’s activity is usually dominated by characteropathic, particularly paranoid, individuals, who often play an inspirational or spellbinding role in the ponerization process.

That is to say that the paranoid characteropath is often engaged in forming groups like discussion groups where there are "no moderators, free will for all" etc. Such groups are, foundationally, corrupted even if there is some paramoralistic raison d'etre. That is very clearly seen in curiouskat's post above where the true nature has been exposed.

The next example is that of a larger social situation such as a government reform movement. We see a lot of this "out there" in the larger world. What is important here is to have a good idea of what kind of individuals are involved in such movements.

PP said:
In the ponerogenic process of the pathocratic phenomenon, characteropathic individuals adopt ideologies created by doctrinaire, often schizoidal people, recast them into an active propaganda form, and disseminate it with pathological egotism and paranoid intolerance for any philosophies which may differ from their own. They also inspire further transformation of this ideology into its pathological counterpart. Something which had a doctrinaire character and circulated in numerically limited groups is now activated at societal level, thanks to their spellbinding possibilities.

Lobaczewski then talks about how such individuals then get pushed out of the way by the serious pathologicals, like psychopaths. They are susceptible to this because their foundational ideas are so twisted that they create groups and structures that are "ripe for the plucking."

PP said:
In the case of frontal characteropathy, this is principally the result of an incapacity for self-critical reflection and an incapacity for the abandonment of a dead-end street into which one has thoughtlessly stumbled. Paranoidal individuals expect uncritical support within such a system.

Of particular interest lately is the exposure of the "inner workings" of the Catholic Church as the pathology factory it is. This is probably due to the fact that the rules and structure of the church were created by paranoid characteropaths based on religious ideas formed by schizoids, and then the whole shebang was taken over by psychopaths.

PP said:
Some religious groups may have been started by persons who were carriers of certain psychological anomalies. Particular attention should be focused upon largely paranoidal characteropathies and their above-discussed role in instigating new phases of ponerogenesis. For such people, the world of normal human experience (including religious experience) succumbs to deformation; spellbinding of self and others easily follows, imposed upon other people by means of pathological egotism. We can observe marginal Christian sects today whose beginnings were doubtless of this nature.

I'm sure when he wrote the above that he was thinking that it was just "marginal christian sects" and could not ever apply to the mainstream religions which, in point of fact, it does more even than the "marginal christian sects." Even though Lobaczewski wrote the text laying out the protocols for thinking about Ponerology, examining it, what the various parts are and what types of individuals play them, I don't think he was ever able to go the next step and apply it to the Catholic church itself. I guess it is a good thing that he is dead now because it really would have hurt him to see what is going on with the church today.

The interesting remark: Spellbinding of self and others is an interesting topic itself. Here's a selection of excerpts that ties all that together. Again, it is fascinating to read this in view of curiouskat's posts, here and elsewhere in the forum.

First of all, one needs to consider egotism and what can be classified as pathological egotism since this is a term used several times above in reference to the paranoid characteropath.

PP said:
The second chapter sketched the human instinctive substratum’s role in our personality development, the formation of the natural world-view, and societal links and structures. We also indicated that our social, psychological, and moral concepts, as well as our natural forms of reaction, are not adequate for every situation with which life confronts us. We generally wind up hurting someone if we engage our natural concepts and reactive archetypes in situations which seem to be appropriate to our imaginings, although they are in fact essentially different. As a rule, such different situations allowing para-appropriate reactions occur because some pathological factor difficult to understand has entered the picture. The practical value of our natural world-view generally ends where psychopathology begins.

Familiarity with this common weakness of human nature and the normal person’s “naïveté” is part of the specific knowledge we find in many psychopathic individuals, as well some characteropaths.

Spellbinders of various schools attempt to provoke such para-appropriate reactions from other people in the name of their specific goals, or in the service of their reigning ideologies. That hard-to-understand pathological factor is then located within the spellbinder himself.

Egotism: We call egotism the attitude, subconsciously conditioned as a rule, to which we attribute excessive value to our instinctive reflex, early acquired imaginings and habits, and individual world-view. Egotism fosters the domination of subconscious life and makes it difficult to accept disintegrative states, which hampers a personality’s normal evolution. This in turn favors the appearance of the above-mentioned para-appropriate reactions. An egotist measures other people by his own yardstick, treating his concepts and experiential manner as objective criteria. He would like to force other people to feel and think very much the same way he does.

{...}

The kind of excessive egotism which hampers the development of human values and leads to misjudgment and terrorization of others well deserves the title “king of human faults”. Difficulties, disputes, serious problems, and neurotic reactions sprout up around such an egotist like mushrooms after a rainfall.

{...}

We can differentiate between primary and secondary egotism. The former comes from a more natural process, namely the child’s natural egotism and egotizing child-rearing errors. The secondary one occurs when a formerly better de-egotized personality regresses to this state, which leads to an artificial attitude characterized by greater aggression and social noxiousness. Excessive egotism is a constant property of the hysterical personality, whether their hysteria be primary or secondary.

{...}

If we analyze development of excessively egotistical personalities, we find some non-pathological causes, such as having been raised in a constricted and overly routine environment or by persons less intelligent than the child. However, the main reason is contamination, through psychological induction, by excessively egotistical or hysterical persons who developed this characteristic under the influence of various pathological causes. ...

Many people with various hereditary deviations and acquired defects develop pathological egotism. For such people, forcing others in their environment, whole social groups, and, if possible, entire nations to feel and think like themselves becomes an internal necessity, a ruling concept.

Some game a normal person would not take seriously becomes an often lifelong goal for them, the object of effort, sacrifices, and cunning psychological strategy.

Pathological egotism derives from repressing from one’s field of consciousness any objectionable, self-critical associations referring to one’s own nature or normality.

Dramatic question such as “who is abnormal here, me or this world of people who feel and think differently?” are answered in the world’s disfavor. Such egotism is always linked to a dissimulative attitude, with a Cleckley mask or some other pathological quality being hidden from consciousness, both one’s own and that of other people. The greatest intensity of such egotism can be found in the prefrontal characteropathy described above.

The importance of the contribution of this kind of egotism to the genesis of evil thus hardly needs elaboration. It is a primarily societal resource, egotizing or traumatizing others, which in turn causes further difficulties.

Pathological egotism is a constant component of variegated states wherein someone who appears to be normal (although he is in fact not quite so) is driven by motivations or battles for goals a normal person considers unrealistic or unlikely. The average person asks: “What could he expect to gain by that?”. Environmental opinion, however, interprets such a situation in accordance with “common sense” and is prone to accept a “more likely” version of occurrences. Such interpretation often results in human tragedy. We should thus always remember that the principle of law cui prodest becomes illusory whenever some pathological factor enters the picture.

{...}

If we analyze the reasons why some people frequently overuse such emotionally-loaded interpretations, often indignantly rejecting a more correct interpretation, we shall of course also discover pathological factors acting within them. Intensification of this tendency in such cases is caused by repressing from the field of consciousness any self-critical concepts concerning their own behavior and its internal reasons. The influence of such people causes this tendency to intensify in others.

{...}

Paramoralisms: The conviction that moral values exist and that some actions violate moral rules is so common and ancient a phenomenon that it seems to have some substratum at man’s instinctive endowment level (although it is certainly not totally adequate for moral truth), and that it does not only represent centuries’ worth of experience, culture, religion, and socialization. Thus, any insinuation closed in moral slogans is always suggestive, even if the “moral” criteria used are just an “ad hoc” invention. Any act can thus be proved to be immoral or morally proper by means of such paramoralisms through active suggestion, and people whose minds will succumb to such reasoning can always be found.

{...}

The conversive features in the genesis of paramoralisms seem to prove they are derived from mostly subconscious rejection (and repression from the field of consciousness) of something completely different, which we call the voice of conscience. ... various pathological factors participate in the tendency to use paramoralisms. ... this tendency intensifies in egotists and hysterics, and its causes are similar. Like all conversive phenomena, the tendency to use paramoralisms is psychologically contagious.

{...}

Reversive blockade: Emphatically insisting upon something which is the opposite of the truth blocks the average person’s mind from perceiving the truth. In accordance with the dictates of healthy common sense, he starts searching for meaning in the “golden mean” between the truth and its opposite, winding up with some satisfactory counterfeit. People who think like this do not realize that this was precisely the intent of the person who subjected them to this method. If such a statement is the opposite of a moral truth, at the same time, it simultaneously represents an extreme paramoralism, and bears its peculiar suggestiveness.

We rarely see this method being used by normal people; even if raised by the people who abused it, they usually only indicate its results in the shape of characteristic difficulties in apprehending reality properly.

{...}

Information selection and substitution: ... Unconscious psychological processes outstrip conscious reasoning, both in time and in scope, which makes many psychological phenomena possible: including those generally described as conversive, such as subconscious blocking out of conclusions, the selection, and, also, substitution of seemingly uncomfortable premises.

We speak of blocking out conclusions if the inferential process was proper in principle and has almost arrived at a conclusion and final comprehension within the act of internal projection, but becomes stymied by a preceding directive from the subconscious, which considered it inexpedient or disturbing. This is primitive prevention of personality disintegration, which may seem advantageous; however, it also prevents all the advantages which could be derived from consciously elaborated conclusion and reintegration.

A conclusion thus rejected remains in our subconscious and in a more unconscious way causes the next blocking and selection of this kind. This can be totally harmful, progressively enslaving a person to his own subconscious, and is often accompanied by a feeling of tension and bitterness.

We speak of selection of premises whenever the feedback goes deeper into the resulting reasoning and from its database thus deletes and represses into the subconscious just that piece of information which was responsible for arriving at the uncomfortable conclusion. Our subconscious then permits further logical reasoning, except that the outcome will be erroneous in direct proportion to the actual significance of the repressed data. An ever-greater number of such repressed information is collected in our subconscious memory. Finally, a kind of habit seems to take over: similar material is treated the same way even if reasoning would have reached an outcome quite advantageous to the person.

The most complex process of this type is substitution of premises thus eliminated by other data, ensuring an ostensibly more comfortable conclusion. Our associative ability rapidly elaborates a new item to replace the removed one, but it is one leading to a comfortable conclusion. This operation takes the most time, and it is unlikely to be exclusively subconscious. Such substitutions are often effected collectively, in certain groups of people, through the use of verbal communication. That is why they best qualify for the moralizing epithet “hypocrisy” than either of the above-mentioned processes.

{...}

Our subconscious may carry the roots of human genius within, but its operation is not perfect; sometimes it is reminiscent of a blind computer, especially whenever we allow it to be cluttered with anxiously rejected material. This explains why conscious monitoring, even at the price of courageously accepting disintegrative states, is likewise necessary to our nature, not to mention our individual and social good.

{...}

Those people who use conversive operations too often for the purpose of finding convenient conclusions, or constructing some cunning paralogistic or paramoralistic statements, in time undertake such behavior for ever more trivial reasons, losing the capacity for conscious control over their thought process. ...


SPELLBINDERS

In order to comprehend ponerogenic paths, especially those acting in a wider social context, let us observe the roles and personalities of individuals we shall call “spellbinders”, who are highly active in this area in spite of their statistically negligible number.

They are generally the carriers of various pathological factors, some characteropathies, and some inherited anomalies. Individuals with malformations of their personalities frequently play similar roles, although the social scale remains small (family or neighborhood) and does not cross certain boundaries of decency.

Spellbinders are characterized by pathological egotism.

Such a person is forced by some internal causes to make an early choice between two possibilities: the first is forcing other people to think and experience things in a manner similar to his own; the second is a feeling of being lonely and different, a pathological misfit in social life. Sometimes the choice is either snake-charming or suicide.

Triumphant repression of self-critical or unpleasant concepts from the field of consciousness gradually gives rise to the above-mentioned phenomena of conversion thinking, or paralogistics, paramoralisms, and the use of reversion blockades. They wind up streaming so profusely that they flood the average person’s mind. Everything becomes subordinated to their over-compensatory conviction that they are exceptional, sometimes even messianic.

An ideology emerges, true in part, whose value is supposedly superior. However, if we analyze the exact functions of such an ideology in the spellbinder’s personality, we perceive that it is a means of self-charming, useful for repressing those tormenting self-critical associations into the subconscious. This ideology’s instrumental role in influencing other people also serves the spellbinder’s needs.

When they extrapolate their earlier experiences and thus believe they will always find converts to the ideology they propound, these spell-binders are not wrong. They only feel shock (or even paramoral indignation) when it turns out that their influence extends to a limited minority, whereas most people’s attitude to their activities remains critical, pained and disturbed.

The spellbinder is thus confronted with a choice: either withdraw back into his void or strengthen his position by improving the effectiveness of his activities.

The spellbinder places on a high moral plane anyone who has succumbed to his influence and incorporated the experiential method he imposes. He showers such people with attention and property, if possible. Critics are met with “moral” outrage. It can even be proclaimed that the compliant minority is in fact the moral majority, since it professes the best ideology and honors a leader whose qualities are above average.

Such activity is always necessarily characterized by the inability to foresee its final results, something obvious from the psychological point of view, because its substratum contains pathological phenomena, and both spellbinding and self-charming make it impossible to perceive reality accurately enough to foresee results logically.

However, spellbinders nurture great optimism and harbor visions of future triumphs similar to those they enjoyed over their own crippled souls. It is also possible for optimism to be a pathological symptom.

In a healthy society, the activities of spellbinders meet with criticism effective enough to stifle them quickly. However, when they are preceded by conditions operating destructively upon common sense and social order; such as social injustice, cultural backwardness, or intellectually limited rulers sometimes manifesting pathological traits, spellbinders’ activities have led entire societies into large-scale human tragedy.

Such an individual fishes an environment or society for people amenable to his influence, deepening their psychological weaknesses until they finally join together in a ponerogenic union.

{...}

The awareness that a spellbinder is always a pathological individual should protect us from the known results of a moralizing interpretation of pathological phenomena, ensuring us an objective criteria for more effective action. Explaining what kind of pathological substratum is hidden behind a given instance of spellbinding activities should enable a modern solution to such situations.

Anyone who wants a little practice SEEing can find all of curiouskat's posts and review them with the above information in mind.
 
Menna said:
I feel like I made a mistake Mrs. Peel and Stormy Knight - you where simply asking a question and sharing an idea and opinion. I encourage the sharing of ideas, feelings and opinions, as that is how we grow through communication. I am extremely extremely extremely sorry that jumped on your reply's saying judgment this and assumption that - sorry about that I guess that’s the human in me.
No harm done, and no need to be sorry it is all part of the process. We cannot learn about our horses and how to control them unless we let them run every now and then . I think its great that you were able to step back and see the situation with different eyes.
curiouskat said:
YOU Anart....are acting nothing more than an STS taking my energy, feeding off of others. Posing in this forum as something more. You have taken my posts and OTHERS I am sure and have given no valued comments except telling me to "read up". I don't know what you story is , I judge no one until they show me with their behavior who they are, however I am condemning you today I have seen enough. You have no idea who I am as a 28 year old awakened person and I am exposing you for your true self today. Today I am holding a mirror in front of you. I see who you really are. And because of you, this place is no longer a safe one. Who needs moderators anyway?...if this life is about FREE WILL you should hold no power here because it seems you don't believe anyone knows better than you. You treat this forum as a hierarchy...when all the Cs, Laura, your higher selves, and now me have told you there is none. There are 7 densities, but we are the c's, they are us...we are all ONE. I am moving to a forum with no moderators, and total freedom. if you erase this ..then you will be taking the FREE WILL from others to be given this option. Remember that.

Anyone is welcome to come to the google group and just talk.....I promise there will be no moderators dissecting every word and judging you. All are welcome.



I am out. Take care everyone and have a happy journey!
this reaction of yours is nothing new and nothing special, in fact it is very common. We have all been there at one time or another.
What could be exceptional and very rare, would be if you utilized this fire constructively.
This is how the Work starts, it is the bare minimum.

Taking your toys and leaving is too easy isn't it?
Since you say that you are awake I am assuming you don't want to be just another who bites the dust, so why not do something you never did before and stay, face this demon.

Work--------------------Dust
..........the choice is yours, indeed yes - this life is about FREE WILL ;)
 
Menna said:
Shijing - Seems like we can't escape from the little I's the ego and our programming but what we can do is recognize these things and try and mitigate them before they arise. Or when they do arise realize and take them for what they are and realize that it is not who we are. I believe that’s why most if not all of us are here to understand and better ourselves.

Yes, this is called the Work. I would like to suggest that if you have not read Ouspenski's In Search of the Miraculous that you do so as soon as you get the chance to do it. This is Ouspenski's experiences with Gurdjieff and his teachings. It is a great eye-opener.

Menna said:
I find it very interesting that the C's say that all souls go to 5th density where they contemplate and think. Then they choose what density they want to go to and everyone here has chosen 3rd density. I could be way off but I am going to go out on a limb and say that we are here to recognize and overcome the programming, ego, 3D handicaps either that or simply just be human and experience it without any expectations. If we chose to be here and our souls knew what they were getting into then I feel that we chose to learn. Can't decide which one it is - to overcome or simply experience and recognize.

According to the C's "all there is is lessons" and learning about our programing/little "i"s/predator's mind is a large part of those lessons, or so I think. Now that you have the basic idea, you need to get to Work! ;)

I think that identifying with anything is not the way to go, but this is my take on the subject. Identifying with something closes off all other opportunities to learn and explore. It lets that program just keep ruling you. For this is all that you focus on rather than the larger picture.

fwiw
 
I feel that it is not fair to the board to ask blind questions without doing work. I ordered the book "In Search of the Miraculous" from Amazon (love that website) I will start it as soon as I get it.

Might as well ask one more blind question while this thread is active - When does the soul enter the body? When one is developing in the mothers womb? When one is first born? Later in life? Also what is present first the brain or the soul? I will find it interesting if our manipulated, brain, DNA and Spinal Cord (As I read the lizzies have altered these things) are present before the soul. ALso if the soul is present in the mothers womb what week or month?
 
Hi Menna, you said that you required and possess will power, dedication, hard work and self sacrifice to get your body in the shape it is in. Have you ever thought about using those qualities to work on other aspects of your self? Maybe your over-sensitivity. After all, your body will age and change, but your over-sensitivity may only become more entrenched as you grow older. In any case, you are lucky, because I think that you will require some or all of those qualities to read and absorb the information in In Search of the Miraculous.
 
this reaction of yours is nothing new and nothing special, in fact it is very common. We have all been there at one time or another.
What could be exceptional and very rare, would be if you utilized this fire constructively.
This is how the Work starts, it is the bare minimum.

Taking your toys and leaving is too easy isn't it?
Since you say that you are awake I am assuming you don't want to be just another who bites the dust, so why not do something you never did before and stay, face this demon.

Work--------------------Dust
..........the choice is yours, indeed yes - this life is about FREE WILL ;)


Oh boy, it seems we sure have all been there. I do agree with you Stormy Knight, in a situation like that the fire within should be utilized more constructively than to march out of here without understanding the causes of the explosive anger. I do understand thought how people feel. Too much pain in us makes us blind and deaf. I have been hurt so many times that when people started to show me the real me, I was afraid to face the real me and see myself as a possible narcissist or a paranoid characteropath as Laura mentioned. I was angry that I was the one being judged instead of all these people judging the psychopaths whom I met throughout my life and who made my life a little unbearable. I thought to myself that the psychopaths should have been judged and not me, as they are the guilty ones, without realizing that this seeing myself through someone else's eyes was actually beneficial to my growth.

I think that Curiouskat should step back a little and review the whole discussion. What is being done here in this forum, I find, is a different kind of awakening the people but definitely not through judgement (even though it may feel like being judged), but through making people see what is. Becoming more awake has been the most difficult pathway I could have ever chosen, but I feel that this time it is the right pathway. The key to succeed in this journey is to not give up no matter what. It is sooooooooo hard, but not impossible to do.


Edit=Quotes
 
I came a little late on this post, but believe that the Administrator's, moderator's and other form members have crossed the t's and dotted the i's on the view's of the ego and its trappings. I recently posted a utube and excuse the repeat, but it would serve both curiouskat, and menna, to view with an open mind. And as always its your call if would like to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOEF1aOCLaE&feature=related
 
  • I feel like I made a mistake Mrs. Peel and Stormy Knight - you where simply asking a question and sharing an idea and opinion. I encourage the sharing of ideas, feelings and opinions, as that is how we grow through communication. I am extremely extremely extremely sorry that jumped on your reply's saying judgment this and assumption that - sorry about that I guess that’s the human in me.

I took their opinion's as judgments...Shortly after that realized I was wrong that people will view things differently then I and people are entitled to their opinions...Im not sure that qualifies one as being over sensitive...Could be wrong...Sounds like the book will be a challenging read...Exited to start it and I will no doubt look at the youtube link. As I am interested in how to mitigate the ego and identifications.
 
Menna said:
Might as well ask one more blind question while this thread is active - When does the soul enter the body? When one is developing in the mothers womb? When one is first born? Later in life? Also what is present first the brain or the soul? I will find it interesting if our manipulated, brain, DNA and Spinal Cord (As I read the lizzies have altered these things) are present before the soul. ALso if the soul is present in the mothers womb what week or month?

Hi Menna, it might help A LOT if you read the book In Search Of The Miraculous to get a better idea of what it means to have a soul since many people use the term 'soul' loosely and tend to feel comfortable when using the term because they assume from the start that they know what it is, that they already have one and that it already exists in actuality and is fully functioning within them. But if we ask ourselves whether we have a soul or not from the point of view of Gurdjieff's ideas then the answers may not be so comforting. The book ISOTM goes more into what it means to have a soul and it puts the idea in proper context with his other ideas that give it a more exact meaning.

You might want to also read the book Lost Christianity by Jacob Needleman. I’ve been reading it and it’s a great book and imo it really gets to the essence of Christianity and the nature of the soul.
 
Menna said:
I took their opinion's as judgments...Shortly after that realized I was wrong that people will view things differently then I and people are entitled to their opinions...Im not sure that qualifies one as being over sensitive...Could be wrong...

FWIW, I do think you are off the mark. The reason being is that there still seems some part in you that is interpreting their questions and observations in the same manner that you might evaluate any old opinion: subjectively. This thread on opinions would be helpful to read through. I think you were closer to seeing things when you stated that you felt insulted. But then you erected a 'buffer' that saw their thoughts as just another opinion that 'could only insult you if you let it'. Having that buffer in place disables the active emotions that are often needed to fuel the ability to fully consider what is being said, and that's where the Work is. Buffers are in place for a reason, and are usually there to cover some old wound, a sensitivity so to speak. I'm glad you'll be reading ISOTM as it will explain this process and will also give a clearer picture of what you've been describing as ego. Ego isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it's what we have to work with and something essential for growth. Gurdjieff explains this in terms of false personality and true personality. If we kill the ego as many new age 'gurus' and eastern philosophies would have, we'd be killing the thing in us that gathers and processes knowledge, which in turn nourishes the ability to be and act consciously. The non-presence of ego doesn't equate with consciousness. Here's a little teaser from ISOTM where Gurdjieff puts to sleep the personality (or ego) in a couple of his group members:

Conversations in groups continued as usual. Once Gurdjieff said that he wanted to
carry out an experiment on the separation of personality from essence. We
were all very interested because he had promised "experiments" for a long
time but till then we had seen nothing. I will not describe his methods, I
will merely describe the people whom he chose that first evening for the
experiment.

One was no longer young and was a man who occupied a fairly prominent
position in society. At our meetings he spoke much and often about himself,
his family, about Christianity, and about the events of the moment connected
with the war and with all possible kinds of "scandal" that had very much
disgusted him.

The other was younger. Many of us did not consider him to be a serious
person. Very often he played what is called the fool; or, on the other hand,
entered into endless formal arguments about some or other details of the
system without any relation whatever to the whole. It was very difficult to
understand him. He spoke in a confused and intricate manner even of the most
simple things, mixing up in a most impossible way different points of view
and words belonging to different categories and levels.

I pass over the beginning of the experiment.

We were sitting in the big drawing room.

The conversation went on as usual.

"Now observe," G. whispered to us.

The older of the two who was speaking heatedly about something suddenly
became silent in the middle of a sentence and seemed to sink into his chair
looking straight in front of him. At a sign from G. we continued to talk
without looking at him. The younger one began to listen to the talk and then
spoke himself. All of us looked at one another. His voice had become
different. He told us some observations about himself in a clear, simple,
and intelligible manner without superfluous words, without extravagances,
and without buffoonery. Then he became silent; he smoked a cigarette and was
obviously thinking of something. The first one sat still without moving, as
though shrunken into a ball.

"Ask him what he is thinking about," said G. quietly.

"I?" He lifted his head as though waking up when he was questioned. "About
nothing." He smiled weakly as though apologizing or as though he were
surprised at anyone asking him what he was thinking about.

"Well, you were talking about the war just now," said one of us, "about what
would happen if we made peace with the Germans; do you still think as you
did then?"

"I don't know really," he said in an uncertain voice. "Did I say that?"

"Yes, certainly, you just said that everyone was obliged to think about it,
that no one had the right not to think about it, and that no one had the
right to forget the war; everyone ought to have a definite opinion; yes or
no-for or against the war."

He listened as though he did not grasp what the questioner was saying.
"Yes?" he said. "How odd. I do not remember anything about it."

"But aren't you interested in it?"

"No, it does not interest me at all."

"Are you not thinking of the consequences of all that is now taking place,
of the results for Russia, for the whole of civilization?"

He shook his head as though with regret.

"I do not understand what you are talking about," he said, "it does not
interest me at all and I know nothing about it."

"Well then, you spoke before of your family. Would it not be very much
easier for you if they became interested in our ideas and joined the work?"

"Yes, perhaps," again in an uncertain voice. "But why should I think about
it?"

"Well, you said you were afraid of the gulf, as you expressed it, which was
growing between you and them."

No reply.

"But what do you think about it now?"

"I am not thinking about it at all."

"If you were asked what you would like, what would you say?"

Again a wondering glance-"I do not want anything."

"But think, what would you like?"

On the small table beside him there stood an unfinished glass of tea. He
gazed at it for a long time as though considering something. He glanced
around him twice, then again looked at the glass, and said in such a serious
voice and with such serious intonations that we all looked at one another:

"I think I should like some raspberry jam."

"Why are you questioning him?" said a voice from the corner which we hardly
recognized.

This was the second "experiment."

"Can you not see that he is asleep?"

"And you yourself?" asked one of us.

"I, on the contrary, have woken up."

"Why has he gone to sleep while you have woken up?"

"I do not know."

With this the experiment ended.

Neither of them remembered anything the next day. G. explained to us that
with the first man everything that constituted the subject of his ordinary
conversation, of his alarms and agitation, was in personality. And when his
personality was asleep practically nothing remained. In the personality of
the other there was also a great deal of undue talkativeness but behind the
personality there was an essence which knew as much as the personality and
knew it better, and when personality went to sleep essence took its place to
which it had a much greater right.

"Note that contrary to his custom he spoke very little," said G. "But he was
observing all of you and everything that was taking place, and nothing
escaped him."

"But of what use is it to him if he also does not remember?" said one of us.
"Essence remembers," said G., "personality has forgotten. And this was
necessary because otherwise personality would have perverted everything and
would have ascribed all this to itself."
 
Laura said:
PP said:
SPELLBINDERS
Triumphant repression of self-critical or unpleasant concepts from the field of consciousness gradually gives rise to the above-mentioned phenomena of conversion thinking, or paralogistics, paramoralisms, and the use of reversion blockades. They wind up streaming so profusely that they flood the average person’s mind. Everything becomes subordinated to their over-compensatory conviction that they are exceptional, sometimes even messianic.

This is a very important dynamic, and thank you for pulling all of the quotes together, Laura. curiouskat's posts were obviously flirtatious and yet when this was pointed out, she responded with heavy handed moral indignation, and a reversive blockade (essentially, "it wasn't a pickup line!" when it obviously was, although subtly disguised).

The spellbinder places on a high moral plane anyone who has succumbed to his influence and incorporated the experiential method he imposes. He showers such people with attention and property, if possible. Critics are met with “moral” outrage. It can even be proclaimed that the compliant minority is in fact the moral majority, since it professes the best ideology and honors a leader whose qualities are above average.

This is the danger, not only in groups, but with individuals. curioskat gives suggestive compliments and from the look of it, is very good at "showering" praise when it suits her needs, i.e. to keep people in "her good books". We've seen this dynamic repeatedly on the forum where an individual "fishes" for admirers and recruits using praise and even flirtation.

Ironically, when such people start their own groups, they do so with the idea of "free speech" and "no moderation". But in reality, if anyone questions them or points out their pathology, they will be rejected and banned immediately. And of course, heaps of paramoral indignation and pity ploys will be unleashed on the offending party. That's one of the ways they keep people in their influence. It's more comfortable to not "rock the boat" than to subject oneself to that kind of verbal onslaught.
 
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