Why do people practically REFUSE to call a spade a spade?

Approaching Infinity said:
Maybe a Commodore 64 would've been a better analogy. :cool2: But you DID upgrade, didn't you? ;D

Only because everybody in the house was making fun of my computer and calling it a dinosaur... they made me do it. I went somewhere one day, and there was a plot... I came back and had Windows XP. I took me months to get over it. Now, I've just recently been upgraded (via the same method) to Windows 7... and I currently hate it.

I tell ya, those Positive Disintegration things are toilsome things!
 
Laura says:
That's pretty much what Dabrowski, thought too. It's not so much that people are terrified of it (but I'm sure there are cases of that), more that they don't have the 'hardware' to either disintegrate in the first place (negative/primitive integration), or to successfully come through on the other side unscathed (negative/unilevel disintegration). It's like the extra 'energy' fries their system, because they don't have the right 'upgrade' with which to install the new 'program'. Or they just run with Windows98 their whole lives.

OK, ok, fascinating stuff!!

I don't publicly announce my suspicion that we are not all created equally. That is a very "dear" sacred cow, one I've used against myself. Who am *I* to conclude that another human being is "limited" where I seem to have a "freedom"? Perhaps I don't SEE something myself, don't understand something in the same manner I accuse THEM of being "blind". I keep that to myself and file it under "Obvious, but proceed with care" :halo:

At risk of sounding even more grandiose, this sense of myself as having a subtle ability doesn't make me feel superior, just . . . responsible! Perhaps that's why I stay in the trenches, even though my personal "war" is over. Oh yeah, I'm an RN too, which underscores the drive to "nurture".

You'd think that an individual capable of "positive disintegration" would be "stronger" than those incapable; "flexibility" creates resilience and strength, especially when positive disintegration leads to improved re-assembly. Could a community of folks like us make toast of a group of authoritarian power freaks? . . . no. Our power is "freedom", which is transcendent. It's a kind of power that doesn't play the same game.

I'm putting stuff into words that I haven't done before, so bear with me.

This "kind" of strength does not lend itself to turn brute authoritarianism on its ear, for instance. It does have an "effect", and that is what I am trying to see.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Laura said:
Briseis said:
Is it really so very awful for a person to admit, to themselves, the "truth" about themselves? And thus extend that outward, in greater circles of influence, and TRULY accomplish making this world a better, safer place? Rather than denying factual reality, taking some psychotic short-cut, like this jury seemed to do? I include the jury that acquitted Casey Anthony as well.

Seems to be so. Some people welcome what Dabrowski calls "positive disintegration" and change, others are so terrified of it that they fight it to the death or go mad when it happens. I think there are some genetic things going on in the different types. And it is also possible that the ones that really cannot go there in any way, shape, form or fashion, simply do not have individuated souls as we think of them. That is what Gurdjieff suggests, and the Cs have said as much. But then, there are the ones that certainly DO have souls who can't go there either. It is an interesting puzzle.

That's pretty much what Dabrowski, thought too. It's not so much that people are terrified of it (but I'm sure there are cases of that), more that they don't have the 'hardware' to either disintegrate in the first place (negative/primitive integration), or to successfully come through on the other side unscathed (negative/unilevel disintegration). It's like the extra 'energy' fries their system, because they don't have the right 'upgrade' with which to install the new 'program'. Or they just run with Windows98 their whole lives.

Man’s psychological evolution seems to depend on genetic potential and favorable conditions for “positive disintegration”. Individuals with soul potential, often experience social disapproval and impatience in response to psychic disintegration. They can be coerced or enticed to short circuit the reintegration process by legal and/or pharmaceutical intervention.

The social organism does not require or tolerate many conscious individuals. Lying and stealing would have to be discarded as organizing principles of society. Governments, corporations, professional monopoly, and institutional religions would lose their power and privilege. Hence, we see psychiatric and legal coercion of individuals who experience psychic disintegration, unless they are fortunate enough to have aware, supportive, and patient family and friends.
 
Briseis said:
I don't publicly announce my suspicion that we are not all created equally.

If you ever doubt that suspicion, just go to a WWF show and watch the crowd a bit....instant confirmation. :shock:
 
Briseis said:
I don't publicly announce my suspicion that we are not all created equally. That is a very "dear" sacred cow, one I've used against myself. Who am *I* to conclude that another human being is "limited" where I seem to have a "freedom"? Perhaps I don't SEE something myself, don't understand something in the same manner I accuse THEM of being "blind". I keep that to myself and file it under "Obvious, but proceed with care" :halo:

I think that's the irony of the situation. Neurotics question themselves and tend to look for the good in others, even when it isn't there. Even if they DO see more and have "more hardware", they have trouble acknowledging it because they're uncomfortable feeling "superior" to others. On the other hand, those without the hardware have no problem. They unquestioningly see themselves as superior than neurotics, when objectively, they aren't.

You'd think that an individual capable of "positive disintegration" would be "stronger" than those incapable; "flexibility" creates resilience and strength, especially when positive disintegration leads to improved re-assembly. Could a community of folks like us make toast of a group of authoritarian power freaks? . . . no. Our power is "freedom", which is transcendent. It's a kind of power that doesn't play the same game.

I'm putting stuff into words that I haven't done before, so bear with me.

This "kind" of strength does not lend itself to turn brute authoritarianism on its ear, for instance. It does have an "effect", and that is what I am trying to see.

I think the strength you're talking about is strength of character. Psychopaths and people with character disorders lack any strength of character. It takes real strength to be responsible, humble, and to act with love. It's easy to lie, manipulate, cheat, and bully. So yeah, neurotics have the capacity for great strength, if they can get over themselves and balance their self-respect and self-worth, that is, have an objective view of who they are (their talents and abilities) and what they have DONE with it.
 
[quote author=Briseis]
I'm trying to understand the MECHANISM beneath this blindness, as you call it, Bud. Is it self-preservation of some sort? Very ill-informed self-preservation, if it is. And what "self" is being preserved, hello?[/quote]


You are much more eloquent than I. I don't know if I can explain the mechanism as I understand it, or even use the language well enough to point to it, but it helps me to think of my wider context and of myself in terms of emergent phenomena.

We are born into a matrix where most every word and behavior we're exposed to carries within it the experience of generation after generation of men, women, families, tribes, and nations, including their insights, value judgements, ignorance, and spiritual beliefs. The influence of the mob of those who've gone before and those who stand around us now can be mind-boggling.

As newborns, toddlers and young children, our brains, neuronal paths and connections are totally plastique and totally shape-able. In fact, Dr. Gabor Mate points out how we are all born pre-mature and require 2 or 3 more years for the environmental input and various feedback loops to mold us into something appropriate to operate and survive in the environment we find ourselves in. Since we are fed and provided with almost everything we need to start out with, our perceptual faculties could even be called unrecognized extensions of a collective brain.

Most of us probably recall all those childhood imperatives to "think about what you're doing!", which effectively means "talk to yourself" - give yourself the instructions internally that you're currently being given externally. This becomes one of the features of consciousness - narratization, the analogic simulation of actual behavior which can make mimics out of us. Once we learn the language and the narratization activity well enough, we can make ourselves believe anything we can justify.

And speaking of justification (buffers), in the midst of all this, consider the pain that is inflicted on us by various people for various reasons as punishment. Pain is a necessary condition of punishment (otherwise why would anyone bother to inflict it?), however, it is not sufficient. In addition to pain, what is necessary is the victim's consent that it is justified.

It seems like, for those who survive the transition from the terribly frustrating time of childhood double-binds into "going along to get along", they've justified the conventional view of reality and no longer experience all and everything as totally stupid, ridiculous and harmful to life. "It's just the way it is". We deny the reality we are actually experiencing and then "forget" (deny) that we are denying the reality.

So, this becomes the narrator's view of life, enforced by threat of re-experiencing the original pain of accurate perception (though from mostly a child's knowledge level) and the threat of realizing the depth of our denial of what we've done (from a more adult knowledge level).

The mechanism, then, as I see it, is one of constantly overlaying our perceptions with our assumptions, beliefs, rationalizations and justifications in order to prevent withdrawal from what we've become used to.

Misusing our cognitive feedback loops in order to reframe our moment-by-moment experience is another of my favored perspectives. Sort of like a paraprosdokian, only nothing funny about it at the time.

If you can self-observe, read the following (assuming you haven't already) and notice what happens in your mind when the more familiar initial "meaning" changes. The instantaneous re-arranging of meaning is noticeable when it's funny, but not so much when not (due to the action of buffers, OSIT).


[quote author=somewhere on the forum]
A paraprosdokian is a figure of speech in which the latter part of a sentence or phrase is surprising or unexpected in a way that causes the reader or listener to reframe or reinterpret the first part. It is frequently used for humorous or dramatic effect, sometimes producing an anticlimax

1) I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.

2) Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

3) I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

4) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

5) The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.

6) Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

7) If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

8) We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.
[/quote]
 
Bud said:
If you can self-observe, read the following (assuming you haven't already) and notice what happens in your mind when the more familiar initial "meaning" changes. The instantaneous re-arranging of meaning is noticeable when it's funny, but not so much when not (due to the action of buffers, OSIT).

I don't get it, they're all kinda funny? Which one isn't supposed to be funny?

A paraprosdokian

"Highlight, right click, look-up" ...again. Two in one day, you're on a roll Bud. ;D
 
Guardian said:
Bud said:
If you can self-observe, read the following (assuming you haven't already) and notice what happens in your mind when the more familiar initial "meaning" changes. The instantaneous re-arranging of meaning is noticeable when it's funny, but not so much when not (due to the action of buffers, OSIT).

I don't get it, they're all kinda funny? Which one isn't supposed to be funny?

Oh, those are all funny. I meant to compare with situations or thinking patterns in other non-funny contexts. Sorry for the lack of clarity. It's bedtime here for Bonzo, Bongo, Bozo?
 
Guardian said:
Briseis said:
I don't publicly announce my suspicion that we are not all created equally.

If you ever doubt that suspicion, just go to a WWF show and watch the crowd a bit....instant confirmation. :shock:

Point taken :scared:

go2 says:
Man’s psychological evolution seems to depend on genetic potential and favorable conditions for “positive disintegration”. Individuals with soul potential, often experience social disapproval and impatience in response to psychic disintegration. They can be coerced or enticed to short circuit the reintegration process by legal and/or pharmaceutical intervention.

The social organism does not require or tolerate many conscious individuals. Lying and stealing would have to be discarded as organizing principles of society. Governments, corporations, professional monopoly, and institutional religions would lose their power and privilege. Hence, we see psychiatric and legal coercion of individuals who experience psychic disintegration, unless they are fortunate enough to have aware, supportive, and patient family and friends.

Ahh, yes.

I was a psychiatric RN for about 17 years. Thanks to the ever-restrictive reimbursement from insurance companies, who also create the diagnostic base of "mental diseases worth reimbursing for", 99% of the patients I encountered in inpatient psychiatry were genuinely "diseased". Meaning, they were constitutionally incapable of meeting their basic needs for shelter, food and safety, or, were an immediate physical threat to themselves or another. Obvious "hardware" issues, as schizophrenias and bipolar affective disorders are known to be.

This new paradigm of "who's mentally ill" has not only streamlined the "kinds" of patients hospitalized, but it has eliminated, for the most part, the people deemed "crazy" by family or community, because she's a white girl who wants to date a Black boy, or because she likes girls more than boys, ad nauseum. Thank goodness for that.

The sort of mis-labeled folks I hear you talking about might end up in a private clinic or hospital, forced in by family members who can write checks for tens of thousands of dollars. I've never worked in that kind of environment. Just at the university or county hospitals, where "involuntary commitment" laws are SO restrictive that many who do need involuntary treatment are left on the streets.

Modern psychiatric treatment is "neuro-behavioral", strictly medication management with structured milieu approach. When you no longer want to kill yourself, or others, and appear to be able to seek shelter, food and necessary medical care, you are discharged.

As far as I could see (up until five years ago), there isn't a place in modern psychiatry for "positive reintegration". I haven't gone out seeking therapy any time recently, but will venture there is little place in outpatient psychiatry or psychotherapy to support this process, either. The days of years long, twice-weekly psychoanalysis or intensive psychotherapy are over, unless you've got lots of money to burn.
 
Bud said:
[quote author=Briseis]
I'm trying to understand the MECHANISM beneath this blindness, as you call it, Bud. Is it self-preservation of some sort? Very ill-informed self-preservation, if it is. And what "self" is being preserved, hello?


You are much more eloquent than I. I don't know if I can explain the mechanism as I understand it, or even use the language well enough to point to it, but it helps me to think of my wider context and of myself in terms of emergent phenomena.

We are born into a matrix where most every word and behavior we're exposed to carries within it the experience of generation after generation of men, women, families, tribes, and nations, including their insights, value judgements, ignorance, and spiritual beliefs. The influence of the mob of those who've gone before and those who stand around us now can be mind-boggling.

As newborns, toddlers and young children, our brains, neuronal paths and connections are totally plastique and totally shape-able. In fact, Dr. Gabor Mate points out how we are all born pre-mature and require 2 or 3 more years for the environmental input and various feedback loops to mold us into something appropriate to operate and survive in the environment we find ourselves in. Since we are fed and provided with almost everything we need to start out with, our perceptual faculties could even be called unrecognized extensions of a collective brain.[/quote]

Perhaps our prematurity (relative to similar creatures, like the apes) creates a special vulnerability to the "matrix" as you describe in the previous paragraph. "Soul building", then, is crossing a threshold from automatic acceptance of the "matrix" into awareness of it, and then awareness of it's limitations? Just a side thought . . . Unless we have this vulnerability, language and culture as we know it would not be possible. Like Dad throwing us in the lake to teach us how to swim.

Most of us probably recall all those childhood imperatives to "think about what you're doing!", which effectively means "talk to yourself" - give yourself the instructions internally that you're currently being given externally. This becomes one of the features of consciousness - narratization, the analogic simulation of actual behavior which can make mimics out of us. Once we learn the language and the narratization activity well enough, we can make ourselves believe anything we can justify.

Unless . . . we don't. I think this is where "we" are, those of us engaged in a particular sort of self-examination, that is.

To what "end" does a person engage in self-examination? What subtle siren song, as it were, encourages self-examination in the first place? In my personal experience, this "siren song" has been . . . unremitting nagging :P that there is MORE. More of? Not a clue. Just "more". Triggers are everywhere.

I've gotten myself into trouble, especially when I was very young, when I thought I found someone else experiencing this same "nagging MORE" I did. Too often, fellow "nagging MORE" were egotists, and about as often, I participated in the nagging MORE for self-serving reasons, too.

And speaking of justification (buffers), in the midst of all this, consider the pain that is inflicted on us by various people for various reasons as punishment. Pain is a necessary condition of punishment (otherwise why would anyone bother to inflict it?), however, it is not sufficient. In addition to pain, what is necessary is the victim's consent that it is justified.

It seems like, for those who survive the transition from the terribly frustrating time of childhood double-binds into "going along to get along", they've justified the conventional view of reality and no longer experience all and everything as totally stupid, ridiculous and harmful to life. "It's just the way it is". We deny the reality we are actually experiencing and then "forget" (deny) that we are denying the reality.

So, this becomes the narrator's view of life, enforced by threat of re-experiencing the original pain of accurate perception (though from mostly a child's knowledge level) and the threat of realizing the depth of our denial of what we've done (from a more adult knowledge level).

It was indeed SO painful that I gave up actively seeking MORE, not easily. Each time I thought I found MORE, I was rapidly, and painfully shown that ONCE AGAIN, I was barking up the wrong tree. I didn't yet know that what I was looking for was not in the trees, or the people. I still believed that this MORE had something to do with my ego, me myself becoming "special" I guess, which effectively blinded me even more.

So about ten years ago, I stopped looking. I chalked it up to having an overly philosophical and unrealistic temperament, and being slow on the uptake. No one else (practically) was "looking", and those that were, were no more successful than I had been. This coincided with the death of my dearest girlfriend from breast cancer, and caring for her in that last year no doubt colored my disillusionment. After she died, I spent about a year in a state of mind that I don't remember real well. Like I'd let go of one trapeze and accepted there wasn't another one coming :D . Sounds more dramatic than it felt.

But this nagging MORE was not about to let go of ME. In my refusal to "take responsibility" for it, or my life, I met a beautiful man at work who HAD IT. He was actually a psychopath (garden variety and "failed", but anyway), and ten years later, he's long gone, along with a LOT of money and innocence (good riddance for the latter).

The MORE I was searching for was NOT what I wanted to find. Anyone else relate LOLOL?? The "original pain of accurage perception", and staring into the depths of my denial put me out of operation for about a year. I couldn't work, and lived on what little money was left after I got rid of the ex-husband. My professional experience would name my condition that year as "major depression". My more imaginative self would call it The Abyss, or the Dark Night.

The mechanism, then, as I see it, is one of constantly overlaying our perceptions with our assumptions, beliefs, rationalizations and justifications in order to prevent withdrawal from what we've become used to.

The "mechanism" continues, I just disgust myself more regularly by noticing it :-[

Misusing our cognitive feedback loops in order to reframe our moment-by-moment experience is another of my favored perspectives. Sort of like a paraprosdokian, only nothing funny about it at the time.

If you can self-observe, read the following (assuming you haven't already) and notice what happens in your mind when the more familiar initial "meaning" changes. The instantaneous re-arranging of meaning is noticeable when it's funny, but not so much when not (due to the action of buffers, OSIT).


[quote author=somewhere on the forum]
A paraprosdokian is a figure of speech in which the latter part of a sentence or phrase is surprising or unexpected in a way that causes the reader or listener to reframe or reinterpret the first part. It is frequently used for humorous or dramatic effect, sometimes producing an anticlimax

1) I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.

2) Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

3) I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

4) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

5) The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.

6) Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

7) If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

8) We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I didn't know there was a name for those LOL!!

Thanks Bud, I got some new thoughts and insights from your response.
 
Laura said:
Briseis said:
Is it really so very awful for a person to admit, to themselves, the "truth" about themselves? And thus extend that outward, in greater circles of influence, and TRULY accomplish making this world a better, safer place? Rather than denying factual reality, taking some psychotic short-cut, like this jury seemed to do? I include the jury that acquitted Casey Anthony as well.

Seems to be so. Some people welcome what Dabrowski calls "positive disintegration" and change, others are so terrified of it that they fight it to the death or go mad when it happens. I think there are some genetic things going on in the different types. And it is also possible that the ones that really cannot go there in any way, shape, form or fashion, simply do not have individuated souls as we think of them. That is what Gurdjieff suggests, and the Cs have said as much. But then, there are the ones that certainly DO have souls who can't go there either. It is an interesting puzzle.

Briseis said:
I've felt that as a "race", we are collectively ill in some undefined way. And I feel an "urge" to remedy that, but have no means to do so, or any real conviction that I even should. Yet the urge remains :(

Yeah. My solution has simply been to put up a lighthouse, keep it going, and work with/help those that really ask. A lot of people SEEM to ask, but really aren't asking... they are manipulating. So even figuring that out can be problematic.

And definitely, if you wake up and try to wake up others, you will be slammed by a whole slew of crazies.

Good morning, had a couple requests yesterday that may be relevant to the subject, and wanted to share them:

Yesterday my Mother asked me to provide diet information to a dear friend of hers...who's the living definition of ADD. Then my Hubby came home, upset over a co-worker's basic bandwagon jumping concerning the propaganda 'all Muslim centers support terrorism and should be closed.' In both cases, I'm not sure my Mother's gal pal or Hubby's coworker really *want* information or assistance....especially Hubby's coworker. He's a young professional that thinks he's got a good bead on things, not a very receptive listener when he thinks he's right. Hubby was clearly disappointed when I asked him "Why do you really want me to look into this?" He said he considered his coworkers thinking bordering on hysteria, and I offered to recommend Fletcher Prouty's book 'The Secret Team', to help clear up misconceptions....but Hubby wanted more than that...he wanted me to research the mosque near us and find out the 'truth'.

Can you say this with me? "What am I, Flypaper for Freaks?" ;D

I might be paranoid, but this is a classic way to get embroiled in crap that will bite me later on, and I finally told Hubby last night that his coworker has free will and while I'll suggest a few books to clear up things, investigative journalism isn't my gig. (To find out what Hubby wants to know would require digging that I know would set off the Idiot Brigade.)

As for the diet information? Yeah, I can do that...with a big caution for Mom's friend to be careful about her thyroid issues. She wants to lose 50 lbs FAST, and I keep telling people that yes, I did lose a little over that much, but it took me a year, not a few days.

Instant gratification....I think that's a big factor in the issue of this kind of 'blindness.' People don't want to work for the information, they want it instantly at their fingertips. Most of the people I know balk when they find out that it takes actual work to find something, instead of just clicking a mouse or touching a screen to find it.

I used to call this kind of "I want it now" Immaturity "Playpen Syndrome": a kind of enforced restriction on every choice/avenue except instant gratification via 'here, have this toy.' When no avenue can be seen to obtain instant gratification, the person who thinks he/she is behind bars gets frustrated and shuts down. It never occurs to them to stand up and get out of the playpen. Modern media works very hard to keep adults restricted this way, which is why I don't like listening to the radio or watching TV without being very picky.

Does this make sense? Or is it too simplistic?

(Or is it a prime example of #6: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. ) :D
 
Gimpy says:
I used to call this kind of "I want it now" Immaturity "Playpen Syndrome": a kind of enforced restriction on every choice/avenue except instant gratification via 'here, have this toy.' When no avenue can be seen to obtain instant gratification, the person who thinks he/she is behind bars gets frustrated and shuts down. It never occurs to them to stand up and get out of the playpen. Modern media works very hard to keep adults restricted this way, which is why I don't like listening to the radio or watching TV without being very picky. Does this make sense? Or is it too simplistic?

I relate with this very much. I have clear memories (like, as of this morning) of getting huffy because I expect what I *want* to be generated simply because I want it. It's not news to anyone here that we are immersed in the encouragement of this instant gratification by whatever media we're hooked into. You can't even watch YouTube anymore without ads.

Maybe, regarding my OP, the reason the jury ignored psychiatric "evidence" that Turcotte was sane enough to stand trial was because they (we) do not want to believe such gross evil operates in the world. Same with the jury who acquitted Casey Anthony, in spite of a more compelling circumstantial case than Scott Peterson ever had. Who *wants* to believe a father, or mother, another human being would commit such evil UNLESS they were too sick to behave any better?

Maybe if we allow that THEY are capable of such evil, then we are too?

And if we were capable, without the excuse of insanity, what belief system would have to be dismantled in order to make room?

So we choose to preserve our precious "lies" over the truth. Yeah, big surprise, there. Great example of instant gratification. I don't like it, therefore, it won't exist. I already know what I want, even though I word my questions in such a way that I appear to NOT know what I already want. So when I ask YOU, you'd better tell me what I already want to hear.



Laura says:
Yeah. My solution has simply been to put up a lighthouse, keep it going, and work with/help those that really ask. A lot of people SEEM to ask, but really aren't asking... they are manipulating. So even figuring that out can be problematic.
 

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