Why G said Change is impossible. Some observations and thoughts.

Woodsman

The Living Force
I've noticed a couple of things which struck me as share-worthy. . .

I decided to refresh myself with various books and materials used in these forums, and found myself swimming in Ouspensky's, "In Search of the Miraculous" for about a month. (This is my first time reading this particular volume, so for me, this book isn't a review at all but new ground.)

After a month, I am barely two thirds of the way through. I am not a particularly fast reader, but this is *extremely* slow going for me, and especially with such an easy to approach volume.

What stopped me was the whole notion of, "Remembering Yourself". --I discovered that I am fully capable of reading while asleep. A large portion of my mind runs off in countless different directions while my eyes track and (barely) process words. As the book calls direct attention to the process of self-forgetting and self-remembering, (which were concepts I didn't fully grasp, and still do not, to be honest), this weird facility of mine to read but not read a text came into sharp focus.

So I began to READ the book. --Every time I noticed myself drifting and that I'd not properly consumed the content of a sentence or paragraph, I'd go back and read it again until I was satisfied that I'd been as fully present as possible. The result is that I need to re-read practically every sentence in the book at least twice. It's not as frustrating as one might think, just really, really slow.

Two things started happening.

One was that I found certain thoughts would emerge in my mind, questions and theories, and even events in my life, which would within the next paragraph down the page be very directly responded to. It's sometimes like having a conversation. I've not experienced this before with any book. This, while quite interesting, is probably nothing more than finally being in proper tune.

The second thing is an observation which has to do with G's regular assertion that, "One cannot change anything!"

I didn't understand that. Surely change is possible. If I see an apple on a table and I wish to change that, I can choose to move the apple. Right?

But it comes down to defining words, as was made clear in the book. "Change" has a specific meaning in G's system. And while I intellectually was able to grasp what he meant, I didn't really get it. Until I started seeing the patterns.

Maybe this will be helpful for others. --Actually, I'd be curious to know if this is a phenomenon isolated to myself and the people in my immediate friend-group, or if it is part of something much larger.

I've noticed that many of the same significant events which are happening in my life now are repetitions of events and broad motions which happened back in 1994. Things I'm building, ideas I'm working with, passions igniting, plans unfolding. I'm even moving from my current living arrangement and into another, both of which are uncannily reminiscent of the places I moved from and to back in/around 1994.

The relationships are the same, and the challenges set up for me are the same, and the future appears to hold the same carnival ride. It all looks like I'm experiencing another iteration, (and have been for some time now) of the ride which I call my life.

--Of course, things are different. The entire landscape if one were to quickly look at it appears entirely new. But the deeper intentions and motivations, the *feelings* are very recognizable.

Curious about this, I've polled the people around me. "What were *you* doing back when I was building my studio?" (That's what I was doing in 1994.)

The answers were all astonishing. Two of my closest friends, (who may have met half a dozen times over the last decade and a half), were both going through the SAME relationship events. One is watching a woman he shares a deep love with, marry another man and move away, saying a final, heart-breaking good-bye. Back in 1994, he went through the same thing, the only difference being the woman, (though she was also Asian and essentially the same 'kind' of person in every other respect.) Only the window dressing of life has changed. All the REAL stuff is the same.

My other friend has just finished going through a difficult break-up with a woman he loved very much. He was stunned by the similarity of the event (and the woman) to that which had unfolded in 1994. In the case of both my friends, these relationships were very significant events, neither having experienced any relationship during the time between each event.

In each case, the recognition of stark similarities flowered outwards from the initial seeing of the pattern, in much the same way I am able to see myself passing all the same dozens of landmarks, they were amazed by just how similar the landscape they were passing is now to what it had been then. --Neither of these friends takes any interest in the kind of subject matter explored in this kind of forum, and often are so resistive that I don't talk much about it. There's little point. But this casual question sparked by my own fascination with pattern caused them to look at their lives and be quite overcome. --Which was not my goal. I've learned not to push my own interests onto others who have little or no desire for such ideas. (Bad consequences for all!)

Now, at the age I am, (38), and that of my two friends who are similarly aged, we have lived long enough to have gone through our respective 'patterns' at least once, (if it may be called that. I'm not sure if it is a set period of years or what), but it is very interesting to look forward and have some notion of what comes next. For my younger friends, who are still working through the first iteration of their own patterns, (and again, I am being very liberal with the word 'pattern' and how long it might take to work through if it even behaves that way), they do not see similarities to past events and 'choices' yet because it is still new terrain.

Anyway. . .

After thinking through this, the notion of "You cannot change anything!" really struck me and made sense for the first time in a very real way.

For example. . . One 'choice' I've had to face was again the same as one I dealt with years ago. It has three options. "A Lot, None, or In Between." --In this case, without getting into useless details, those three options are set and clear with no option of variance between the three, and each will have very powerful and different results. The first time through, (in 1995), I picked "In Between", and I lived with the consequences which were what they were.

Faced again with the same choice, something interesting happened. This time, I *recognize* the triple fork in the road as One Of Those Critical Junctures. --I see the pattern and know I am having to Groundhog Day the thing again.

Here's where it is further interesting. --Try as I might to Change something, I am finding a curious set of resistive forces in place. --Picking, 'None' is out of the question for very basic, foundational reasons. (I need tools to work). But picking 'A Lot', which is a somewhat realistic option, feels WRONG, like swimming against a very strong current towards something which makes my body react with sweating palms and a sick sort of feeling. My gut and my intellect repel the idea! (Perhaps this is the predator fighting me, but who knows?)

In any case, the middle option "In Between" remains frictionless and easy. And I know where it leads. Further, the world itself is exerting a force which also seems to guide me down the middle path. That's where the current is flowing.

Now, which option is the RIGHT one, I don't know. Each could hold its own in a debate very well, so it REALLY comes down to who I am as a person. I still have to go through with whatever I choose, so it's not a done deal yet, but that's not the point of my writing this. --The reason I'm writing is to share my take on why G might have said that it is impossible to change anything.

A curious part of all this. . .

I am not yet convinced that this is bad. Part of me is horrified by being stuck in a loop of sorts. But part of me is also elated. --Some things ARE different. For instance, I've decided to be much more kind and open to people and their needs. --Yes, I know this needs to be done with appropriate filters in place, but I don't want to be the same arrogant guy who went through this whole ride the first time. I basically don't want to be mean to people. --My friend who is saying good-bye to his lady-friend has decided something opposite, but similar; "I don't want to be such a push-over. I always put myself last and I got nothing done. I'm not going to do that again!"

(In our discussion, I realized that I thought the middle path might be the best for both of us. I don't want to be a push-over, but I wouldn't want to see my friend become a reckless and self-centered person; I'd seen the damage that can cause. I wonder, because we are such close friends, if this might not be some balancing action in the whole network of reality.)

In any case, I've already noticed that the coloration of the last couple of years as compared to those from the first time through have held a different character. The course remains the same, but how one experiences the ride, I think, might be very variable. Further, we both have much more experience and knowledge. I am reminded that the nature of reality is not so much a loop as it is a spiral. Perhaps one purpose of life is to experience all of God as fully as possible and our little performance within creation and the ability to hone it and make our way through it while learning as much from the experience as possible is the point. Or one of the points. I don't know. It will be fascinating to see how this all plays out. I'm going to see what it takes to CHANGE some events, and see what happens to balance out those changes as G says will be the result.

Okay.

That's all I have for now.

I've got to pack. I move house in a couple of days! Then more reading.

Cheers!
 
Woodsman said:
Faced again with the same choice, something interesting happened. This time, I *recognize* the triple fork in the road as One Of Those Critical Junctures. --I see the pattern and know I am having to Groundhog Day the thing again.

Here's where it is further interesting. --Try as I might to Change something, I am finding a curious set of resistive forces in place. --Picking, 'None' is out of the question for very basic, foundational reasons. (I need tools to work). But picking 'A Lot', which is a somewhat realistic option, feels WRONG, like swimming against a very strong current towards something which makes my body react with sweating palms and a sick sort of feeling. My gut and my intellect repel the idea! (Perhaps this is the predator fighting me, but who knows?)

In any case, the middle option "In Between" remains frictionless and easy. And I know where it leads. Further, the world itself is exerting a force which also seems to guide me down the middle path. That's where the current is flowing.


Interesting. I found myself in a similar situation in my late thirties, early forties, to one I had been in years before (your entire post is very familiar!) the only difference being that at this point, I now had knowledge I didn't have then... and I chose to make a different choice. It was like your "A lot" choice, and produced the same sensations you describe, only maybe worse because it was SUCH a life changing decision.

So, I went against ALL my programming, all my patterns, my emotions that were screaming "stop! stop! danger! danger! unknown!" and all that....

And what happened?

I entered a different universe. I am speaking to you now from that other universe. I sure like it better than the old one.
 
Great observations woodsman, your efforts at breaking free from your machine are inspiring, I hope you don't stop now that you're making headway. As long as we are machines, we are stuck in an infinite loop of repeating the same experiences over and over - on an individual level, but also on a national and global level as humanity. Until we learn to break out of this shell of programs we're stuck repeating the same mistakes, attracting the same kinds of experiences and situations subconsciously, with no conscious ability to do anything about it.

Which "i" of your friend do you think is deciding not to be a pushover? Probably the same "i" that never liked to be a pushover in the first place? Maybe it's the same "i" that made this exact same resolution in the past? IN our default state all our resolutions are just words. Our subconscious programming and dissociated inner state is very powerful, and unless your friend has an incredibly strong will or is VERY motivated (like a person would be in a total state of bankruptcy before he begins waking up), he won't be able to have any control over whatever subconscious conditioning is making him be a "pushover". It seems easy to him now just saying it, but as soon as the same situation comes up again which "triggers" whatever causes him to be a pushover, what then? At best he'll realize how difficult it is to do anything about a deeply rooted subconscious program, at worst (what most people do) he won't even remember making this resolution at all because another "i" is in control, the "i" that never made any such resolution.

Your realization of repeating life experiences no doubt helps you understand how difficult it is for someone to change anything about themselves or their life. We are very comfortable where we are, we create an "identity" out of our own life no matter how miserable and destructive our life and identity is, and we are attached to it. No wonder people keep attracting and being attracted to the same kind of destructive relationships, and then complain about what kind of horrible person their partner is and how they'll never do this again, and the next relationship it is the exact same kind of person, and the pattern repeats over and over. Change takes effort, a lot of effort, in fact the kind of effort most people are not able or willing to give, even when they are extremely upset by the way things are, most people will NOT change themselves! It really takes a massive amount of effort and willpower, something you don't realize when you simply make a "resolution" thinking it's as easy as that.

So when you say "I don't want to be..." or "I don't want to do..." that is not a decision yet, that's a desire to make a decision. It is only when you do it, or become whatever it is, then you can call it a decision. However, change often happens for purely mechanical reasons that are outside of your control as well. Are you currently arrogant and are choosing to no longer be this? Or has your arrogance just gone away with time on its own? In the case of the latter, can you call this a decision at all or just a side effect of external influences that shape your "identity"? In other words, did you lose your arrogance in the same unconscious way that you acquired it in the first place? If so, is that truly progress and a result of self development and a more empathic outlook on life, or just because being less arrogant "serves" your mechanical needs better at this time? It's a subtle but very important difference.

Some things to consider.
 
I'm currently going through the exact same thing. A situation almost identical to this exact same time four years ago, where the options are the same, but I now have the knowledge to make a different choice. What's strange is that, I've been a bit apprehensive because I'm stepping into the unknown, and for a few days I let the situation hang in the air because I was worried. At that point, I received two injuries which are in identical places to injuries I've received in the past.

When I was young, my mum had left two stud earrings on her bedroom floor sticking up, and I stood on one and it went into my heel. Well, I'm currently studying for my job, and I have a folder with modules in it and somehow I managed to stand on the binder mechanism. It was closed, but my weight parted the clasp and the point went straight into the same heel, same place.

Then, I once had a little accident on a motorbike when setting off, where I let the clutch out too quick and pulled a huge wheelie; I held the bike but my left foot slipped of the peg and I smashed my shin on it. Well, I was in a pool match in a pub last week, and there was a disabled guy at the bar in an electric wheelchair; the pub was busy and as I tried to squeeze past the back of his chair, I had to move to avoid someone coming the other way and banged the same shin really hard against the base of his chair. (a wheeled, mechanical device both times!)

I really have recently become convinced of the cyclical nature of time.
 
Hi T.C.

Without taking this thread too far off course, I looked up 'feet', 'shins' and 'left side of your body' in Heal your Body A-Z by Louise Hey
Here's what she says

Feet = Represents -- our under-standing -- of ourselves, of life, of others.
Shin = Breaking down ideals. Shins represent the standards of life.
Left Side of Body = Represents receptivity taking in, feminine energy, women, the mother.

Whenever I have physical problems I try and figure out what my body may be trying to tell me.
Perhaps then the injury to your foot represents a negative (damaged) understanding of yourself/others, and the left shin is the (attempt to) break down the ideals set by your mother?
 
What an interesting thread. All this time I've been focused on trying to be/stay conscious in each situation I am in, that I never thought about how each situation in itself is a representation of mechanical behaviour. I/ve been so concerned about BEing in a situation, I've never really thought about what led to the situation in the first place. And if the situation is a constant loop, where the subject matter is slightly different.

For example, here I am, sitting in the same position, in the same place, that I always sit, while on my computer.

Is this a correct understanding?
 
Hi Woodsman
Woodsman said:
I've noticed that many of the same significant events which are happening in my life now are repetitions of events and broad motions which happened back in 1994. Things I'm building, ideas I'm working with, passions igniting, plans unfolding. I'm even moving from my current living arrangement and into another, both of which are uncannily reminiscent of the places I moved from and to back in/around 1994.

The relationships are the same, and the challenges set up for me are the same, and the future appears to hold the same carnival ride. It all looks like I'm experiencing another iteration, (and have been for some time now) of the ride which I call my life.

--Of course, things are different. The entire landscape if one were to quickly look at it appears entirely new. But the deeper intentions and motivations, the *feelings* are very recognizable.

I think that everyone passes through these loops and repetitions. The way I see it is that the recurrence occurs when lessons have not been learnt completely, or if the lessons have not been put into practice. I can see patterns throughout my entire life, particularly with friendships and other relationships. Often the same type of person will appear in my life for a certain amount of time, usually until I recognise this and learn from it. I don't think there is anything particularly significant in general about the year 1994, but I could be wrong. I think it may just be relevant to your life and perhaps is mirrored by your friends' too because they are part of the loop with you and perhaps part of the learning you need to do. I could be wrong though.

Woodsman said:
we have lived long enough to have gone through our respective 'patterns' at least once
I think with enough repetitions it is possible to get a sense of "haven't I been here before?!" and begin to start questioning and waking up to why that might be so.
 
Addressing one small portion of Woodsman's post about reading issues:
Woodsman wrote
I discovered that I am fully capable of reading while asleep. A large portion of my mind runs off in countless different directions while my eyes track and (barely) process words. As the book calls direct attention to the process of self-forgetting and self-remembering, (which were concepts I didn't fully grasp, and still do not, to be honest), this weird facility of mine to read but not read a text came into sharp focus.

So I began to READ the book. --Every time I noticed myself drifting and that I'd not properly consumed the content of a sentence or paragraph, I'd go back and read it again until I was satisfied that I'd been as fully present as possible. The result is that I need to re-read practically every sentence in the book at least twice. It's not as frustrating as one might think, just really, really slow.

Many people have this same experience with reading. Barring any unrecognized reading disability, two things are often happening. One, not everyone "sees" in their heads what they read with a movie-like quality, and because of this they often become distracted and do not remember what they have just read. I read just about every book except light novels for fun, as if it is a textbook for school. I annotate in the margins my responses and questions to the material and I highlight what appears to be the most important points. I also will sometimes write a few words or a phrase at the top of the page like a chapter heading to remind me what that page was about. Although this is slow reading at first , it helps people stay focused and present, and it does become second nature after a while. This technique is also really helpful when you want to go back and review a text. For those of you who have a hard time marking up your books, think of them as "tools" that must be "used" to meet your goals. Good reading!
shellycheval
 
shellycheval said:
Addressing one small portion of Woodsman's post about reading issues:
Woodsman wrote
I discovered that I am fully capable of reading while asleep. A large portion of my mind runs off in countless different directions while my eyes track and (barely) process words. As the book calls direct attention to the process of self-forgetting and self-remembering, (which were concepts I didn't fully grasp, and still do not, to be honest), this weird facility of mine to read but not read a text came into sharp focus.

So I began to READ the book. --Every time I noticed myself drifting and that I'd not properly consumed the content of a sentence or paragraph, I'd go back and read it again until I was satisfied that I'd been as fully present as possible. The result is that I need to re-read practically every sentence in the book at least twice. It's not as frustrating as one might think, just really, really slow.

Many people have this same experience with reading. Barring any unrecognized reading disability, two things are often happening. One, not everyone "sees" in their heads what they read with a movie-like quality, and because of this they often become distracted and do not remember what they have just read. I read just about every book except light novels for fun, as if it is a textbook for school. I annotate in the margins my responses and questions to the material and I highlight what appears to be the most important points. I also will sometimes write a few words or a phrase at the top of the page like a chapter heading to remind me what that page was about. Although this is slow reading at first , it helps people stay focused and present, and it does become second nature after a while. This technique is also really helpful when you want to go back and review a text. For those of you who have a hard time marking up your books, think of them as "tools" that must be "used" to meet your goals. Good reading!
shellycheval

I experience the same thing Woodsman does. The exercises you described are very helpful. Thanks for posting them Shellycheval :rockon:
 
SAO said:
So when you say "I don't want to be..." or "I don't want to do..." that is not a decision yet, that's a desire to make a decision. It is only when you do it, or become whatever it is, then you can call it a decision. However, change often happens for purely mechanical reasons that are outside of your control as well. Are you currently arrogant and are choosing to no longer be this? Or has your arrogance just gone away with time on its own? In the case of the latter, can you call this a decision at all or just a side effect of external influences that shape your "identity"? In other words, did you lose your arrogance in the same unconscious way that you acquired it in the first place? If so, is that truly progress and a result of self development and a more empathic outlook on life, or just because being less arrogant "serves" your mechanical needs better at this time? It's a subtle but very important difference.

Some things to consider.

Indeed. --I think very definitely that this change in my attitude is the result of outside forces. --My last two girlfriends fought with me in various ways to change my attitudes toward people, to become more careful in how I interact with others. The first was very combative; I struggled mightily to maintain my own desire to be 'special and superior' --After all, it had taken me very far in life in terms of material success and I was scared that by considering others, I might lose this advantage. I did come out of that shaken and much changed. The second relationship was equally challenging, but much more subtle, and this time instead of fighting her, I was fighting with myself because I trusted that she saw me better than I saw myself. It was quite harrowing, and for a long while the changes in my attitude seemed to me superficial, like wearing a mask. Since then the changes have settled, but I am not convinced that it is anything more than a modulation of 'Personality' rather than essence. Whatever the case, while a decision was made on my part to embrace this, it clearly was the universe acting on me rather than something which came from within. --Still, it did require a decision on my part to accept that challenge. It did take a lot of will and effort, but I suspect that the overall chemical equation within myself remains balanced. --G said that with effort one aspect might be changed in a sleeper, but that another portion of the equation will adjust itself to compensate, so that overall nothing has changed. (I am heavily paraphrasing).

At this point, I am trying simply to observe and to remember myself. I have a strong feeling that G is quite correct in that at this very early stage in one's approach to the Work, no real change is possible and that the best one can do is to observe.

One thing I have noted is that my material success in the world (as measured by the capitalist model), has indeed diminished, and the kind of 'respect' offered to me by the professional world has fallen from a kind of fearful admiration to a sort of pity and even a desire to cut conversations short so as to not perhaps 'catch' whatever it is which ails me. On the other hand, the balancing effect, seems to be that no matter what I do, (so long as it extends from a desire to work on myself and to be as beneficial a source of energies as I can figure), then things seem to always work out well in a very non-linear fashion. It's quite exciting to trust in the world like this, and it feels good. --Though it also feels very much like I am a cog in a larger machine, that actual decisions are not really within my hands. All I seem to have the power to do is to pick whether or not I send energies when they are called for. I am trying to filter out predatorial calls for help from those which extend from those working towards better things, (not always easy to do!), but even this seems more like I am just obeying some guidance program which was written by others rather than something I have consciously put in place within myself. Still, for the moment I am content with this arrangement so long as my activities help in ways which, as best as I am able to determine, are positive in nature.

Perhaps one day, if I ever start to have those flashes of Wakefulness which Ouspensky wrote of experiencing after a session in Finland with G, I will begin to see ways to exert my own will in REAL ways. But until then, I really don't think I know enough. I'm still learning how the machine works. --Which is quite an adventure! This, while at turns offending and scary, is also extremely exhilarating. It's like having discovered a new area within an old and worn playground to explore.

Anyway. . , and this may well be mechanical, I must say that I am very taken at the moment with a strong wave of affection for the people posting here. Probably like the dog who mistakes need for love. Still, it is a huge relief to be able to speak with those who are familiar with this language, who are not full of mundane suspicions and pre-fabricated criticisms based on virtually zero understanding of the subjects being judged. --And this is another aspect of the old pattern. I remember back in the early nineties getting a huge dollop of understanding as to how the world worked wrt politics and notions of the individual and such. I remember diving deeply into the urge to get angry and frustrated (arrogant) with those who could not see the same way I did. This was largely linked to my brash nature as I moved through the world. Today, the ideas are more refined and advanced, but the challenge is the same. How does one love the world and its people when suddenly EVERYBODY seems so mechanical and often destructively unaware? This is my current struggle, but I've seen what happens when one fails to consider others, and I don't want to go there again.

Hm. I think I must re-read those sections where G talks about the different types of consideration. There's probably an insight or two which can be gleaned.

My apartment move has been delayed for a few days due to a complication with the truck rental firm. I now find myself surrounded by boxes and a disaster of possessions not yet packed or discarded. There is probably a metaphor to be read in that.

Anyway, cheers all! Thank-you for being there and for sharing your various responses. For what it's worth, even if I am simply a Dog working towards Cat, the appreciation within me feels genuine enough.
 
RedFox said:
Hi T.C.

Without taking this thread too far off course, I looked up 'feet', 'shins' and 'left side of your body' in Heal your Body A-Z by Louise Hey
Here's what she says

Feet = Represents -- our under-standing -- of ourselves, of life, of others.
Shin = Breaking down ideals. Shins represent the standards of life.
Left Side of Body = Represents receptivity taking in, feminine energy, women, the mother.

Whenever I have physical problems I try and figure out what my body may be trying to tell me.
Perhaps then the injury to your foot represents a negative (damaged) understanding of yourself/others, and the left shin is the (attempt to) break down the ideals set by your mother?

Interesting!

--I recall having for a short time a thin little book which described how different aspects of one's feet could be used to understand the person in a spiritual sense.

One event I experienced was that during a heated argument with a girlfriend who had called me out on a particularly difficult aspect of my personality and would not let it go or me to avoid the painful issue was that I threw a tantrum and kicked my stereo unit, breaking it and smashing my big toe. I stormed, (limped) off and hid in some brush of the hillside beyond the apartment complex, nursing a throbbing foot. Eventually, while sitting there feeling sorry for myself and angry with the world, I came to the realization that she'd been right. In that moment the very painful to observe aspect of my personality came into much more objective focus and I looked at it straight on for the first time, perhaps ever. After that, it melted away from being the big monster hiding in my psyche.

The funny part is that I'd, for most of my adult life, suffered from a fungal infection on my toes. By the end of the week, after my toe stopped swelling and returned to its normal size, that old infection also vanished and remains gone to this day, now nearly four years after this episode. (My other toe remains infected, so I know there is still more work to do, but I'm not clear exactly on what.) --The little book, (I wish I could remember its title and author), said that one foot represented the past and the other the present. The toe, (my right toe) is the clear one. This, I seem to recall is the 'Present' foot. I don't know if any of that book was accurate, but it is an interesting observation. --I should also note that in purely linear 'time', I came across that book almost a year after this toe thing, so it was very much an after-the-fact observation.

Cheers!
 
Woodsman, thanks for sharing your observations. I too can identify with the repeating nature of some of my lessons. Hopefully, by knowing our programs better and applying knowledge, we can transform this loop into an ascending spiral. Since you mentioned looking up external considering you may find this thread useful
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11666.0
Since our repeating lessons almost always involve how we relate to other people in our environment, it seems that the degree to which we can apply external consideration is a true benchmark of how much we have learnt and can apply in life. In my case, after going through a phase of trying to tell others what I was learning, I mostly tried to keep quiet when I knew that my views were likely to challenge the existing views of the people I was conversing with. I took the advice of working quietly quite literally :). This maintaining of silence in certain matters did work out to some extent but I was still missing something. I will quote a portion of a post from Anart in the thread that I mentioned above
anart said:
Most of the people in my day to day life think that I view the world the way they do - this is due to conscious effort on my part, since it makes life easier for them and for myself; it maintains my strategic enclosure. They don't need to know how I perceive the world, they wouldn't like it anyway - so, they all think that I think just like they do. Why shouldn't they? As Gurdjieff said, "sincerity with everyone is a weakness". fwiw.
Though I had read about external consideration, it never quite hit me the way this portion of Anart's post hit me. Even thinking in my mind about trying to agree to something that I did not agree with created great turnmoil within me. I realized that my previous efforts at keeping quiet still retained the smug self-importance program. I am still struggling to come to terms with this. Reading some other threads related to intimate relationships gave me the same message that the practice of a high level of external consideration is of paramount importance. It is in this practice of external consideration at progressively advanced and refined levels which necessitates a degree of presence in oneself that we can change and transform the repeating loops into an ascending spiral - osit.

Well, all this has been spoken about in different terms in many threads - so I do not think my saying this here really adds anything - still thought of posting what I felt in the specific context of this thread. FWIW.
 
Very interesting thread!  Thank you.

Sometimes patterns happen across generations.  When I began psychotherapy some years ago, I began to study not only my own patterns, but those of my family (looking for where I get some of my issues/programs).  I always knew that my mother lost custody of me to my father (in the early 1960's when it was rare for the father to get custody).  Then, I found out that my father's mother had had a daughter and lost custody of her (at a time when it was even more rare for the mother to lose custody) prior to marrying my father's father and having my father and my uncle.  This was not widely know in the family until my grandmother was re-united with her daughter later in life as I was re-united with my mother later in life.  Perhaps this is an indicator of our connectedness...I don't know, just thought it was interesting.

Edit: Just remembered another "repeat" - My grandmother had first a daughter who she lost and my mother first had a daughter whom she lost. My grandmother went on to have two sons which she got to keep. My mother went on to have two sons which she did not get to keep (she gave them up for adoption when she had health problems and could not take care of the boys). So except for whether or not they got to keep the boys, the rest seems pretty much the same.
 
Woodsman said:
How does one love the world and its people when suddenly EVERYBODY seems so mechanical and often destructively unaware? This is my current struggle, but I've seen what happens when one fails to consider others, and I don't want to go there again.
A perspective I found that helped me is to not to see it as how much they are like me and conform to how I'd want the world to be so that *I* am comfortable, but just appreciate that it is exactly what it needs to be as it wasn't designed for my comfort. However, don't be quick to think we are so different either, we are here because we fit here, and we often get angry and frustrated at certain qualities in others because they reflect and remind us of a part of ourselves we like to pretend isn't there. You say you can't "love" it, but maybe that's just something you don't want or love in yourself - something you personally do not value. Our concepts of "respect" and "appreciation" and "love" are inherently selfish and subjective, they stem from what we personally value, and when our subjective values change we start loving, respecting, and appreciating whatever conforms to our new values.

For example, if you love nature, you start respecting, appreciating, and loving people who also love nature, and the opposite - being angry with, disrespecting, and not appreciating those who don't. Or vice versa, you might not care at all about nature, and you have no respect for those who do and you think they're just a bunch of "tree huggers". But why not redefine these concepts of love/appreciation/respect in a way that is not so subjective and judgmental of the universe? Why not just accept that the universe is infinite and everyone and everything in it can be absolutely anything it wants to be. The C's say love is knowledge, and it seems that if you non-judgmentally seek to know and understand everyone and everything, you can say you love someone or something because you choose to understand it without judging it as being good or bad or having "value", because to the universe everything is equally valuable.

Of course you choose your own path, but everybody is on different paths and levels, and everybody has their own lessons to learn in their own ways and time. Relative to some, you are extremely mechanical and destructively unaware. You can point out the smartest and most conscious person on the planet, and relative to others elsewhere that person will be very ignorant and therefore very self-destructive without realizing it. No matter how high you go, there's always someone higher that can see you as very stupid and ignorant. If they choose to they can feel frustrated on your behalf and wish you'd snap out of your ignorant ways and stop hurting yourself and others already. But then it's a never ending cycle that will never end, until maybe 7th density or something. So if you can see that, you can feel empathy for others whose ignorance and suffering you can understand, but at the same time don't feel like you cannot love the fact that they are experiencing their lessons in their own way and time. Help them if they ask, but try to accept that they are where they are, and that's ok because all there is is lessons.
 
shellycheval said:
I read just about every book except light novels for fun, as if it is a textbook for school. I annotate in the margins my responses and questions to the material and I highlight what appears to be the most important points. I also will sometimes write a few words or a phrase at the top of the page like a chapter heading to remind me what that page was about. Although this is slow reading at first , it helps people stay focused and present, and it does become second nature after a while. This technique is also really helpful when you want to go back and review a text. For those of you who have a hard time marking up your books, think of them as "tools" that must be "used" to meet your goals. Good reading!
shellycheval

I thought I was the only one who reads books this way! You have described exactly what I do, even to writing questions, answers, comments, and "headings" at the tops of pages so I can find stuff when I go back. Some people hate reading a book after me and others like it because they just read what I've highlighted and my notes!!!
 

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