Wind Turbines

[clerck de bonk]

But I should probably mention if you are determined to get a renewable/unlimited source of energy you simply cannot go past the brown gas or (HHO) generator, I have actually seen in person somebody using this technology in a 5000w petrol generator that had only had a few tweaks to its ignition timing and had replaced the valves and I plan on buying one next commission check. Type it in YouTube you will find many examples and it runs soley on water and it can even distill its own water for fuel.

Tell me more. Is this something akin to the Water4fuel- franchise?


Edit: @chaps23 thanks for the tip!

 

[chaps23]

I'm still waiting till I can afford one and I'll put up all the details and some video's here for you all to see.

it is quite an easy system, and the technology has been around since the 1920's. You should see the welder they have manufactured using the same idea. type in HHO welder in YouTube and have a look,

I'm sorry clerck de bonk I'll have to leave you to do some research of your own, I dont know enough about these machines as yet to be confident enough to give accurate information. I suggest having a good look through YouTube and a dabble in google, I do have some blue prints to build your own (at your own risk) I suggest saving up a few dollars and doing it properly. Can be dangerous otherwise.

 

[paralleloscope]

I am sorry parallel but I think you missed my sarcasm,

Entirely.

I was making the point that that particular wind turbine is not viable

How so? I would appreciate a proper argument against it, apart from the 70 mph/ 1400 W mark is unrealistic or out of reach for most. Not that I am attached to this particular brand, its just that by the numbers it seems to me to be a viable solution for a simple household in a windy setting. Any figures to the contrary would be welcome.

But I should probably mention if you are determined to get a renewable/unlimited source of energy you simply cannot go past the brown gas or (HHO) generator

I recall a few years ago looking to put one of these in my truck, but realized I didn't have the sufficient mechanical know-how or network to assemble/experiment/operate one of those things. It still seems the technology is reserved for the handy mech and tech savvy enthusiast, all though there is lot more information at hand today than back then it seems. Are there any 'over the counter' versions available?

 

[D69]

How so? I would appreciate a proper argument against it, apart from the 70 mph/ 1400 W mark is unrealistic or out of reach for most.

Same here.
With wind turbine and solar cells combo you can easily charge several 12 V car batteries then switch your home installation to 12 V (lights for start) so it will be easier to use LED bulbs and other gear that was originally designed for cars (fridges ,chargers etc. etc).

Problem of renewable energy source is not the production itself but storage, therefore using car batteries as storage partially solves the problem.

 

[Divide by Zero]

Re: Wind Turbines+HHO

Wind turbines and solar would be much more viable with a better storage medium than batteries. I saw an interesting video of a scientist developing a system that stores the electrical energy by converting it to hydrogen. When sun/wind is not available, the system would use the hydrogen in a fuel cell to directly convert it to electricity. So far it is hard to get the cost down because fuel cells are very expensive.

HHO:
So far everything I have read about HHO sounds like magic.

To create hydrogen it takes a certain amount of energy per molecule of water to break it apart.

Then you take that hydrogen and burn it.. the bonds form and release the same amount of energy used in the previous step. As the C's said, there is no free lunch, and the same thing goes for thermodynamics. If there is some other process happening, I am interested, but burning and separating molecules is based on thermodynamics.

So, how can the machine run and create an excess of energy to create extra fuel?

Also they are using an internal combustion engine (ICE) which means the engine itself has at most a 40% efficiency (not counting the electrical losses and other losses). So the machine has to be making a bit more than 2 times the fuel it consumes to break even.

It reminds me of the 200 mpg carburator I have heard about from the past. Supposedly some car company bought it and shelved it.
Ok, but it is impossible even if the engine ran on 100% efficiency because to move the car at 55 mph the air resistance requires a certain amount of energy to overcome, so 1 gallon cannot do 200 miles on the cars of those days even if half of the wasted energy was not.

But because it had a similar story of being held down by the industry, it sounds like it is real. But, like you said, you can build it easily. It's just a problem that I haven't seen any real objective analysis of one of these machines that measures the energy put in and out.

 

[Richs]

HHO:
So far everything I have read about HHO sounds like magic.

To create hydrogen it takes a certain amount of energy per molecule of water to break it apart.

Then you take that hydrogen and burn it.. the bonds form and release the same amount of energy used in the previous step. As the C's said, there is no free lunch, and the same thing goes for thermodynamics. If there is some other process happening, I am interested, but burning and separating molecules is based on thermodynamics.

This is true if one is using the standard method of producing HHO, which is plain electrolysis. However, many innovative researchers have discovered methods which put out much more HHO than would be had by the old electrolysis method - some have produced up to 20 times more gas than the equations would make us think were the limit of what is possible. Because so much more HHO gas is produced by some of these methods there is an 'excess' of energy available to do useful work in addition to continuously replenishing the HHO.

These things have never yet made it to market because there is lots of opposition from certain parties to their dissemination to the public.
Take the case of Stanley Meyer for instance _http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html who was apparently poisoned just before he was going to put a system into production.

Most of the HHO systems being used today are for increasing one's fuel mileage. The addition of small amounts of HHO to the intake air of an internal combustion engine appears to increase the efficiency of the fuel burn generating an additional average of 20 to 35 percent increase in fuel mileage. The relatively small amount of energy used to make the HHO gas has a much larger effect on the mileage, which makes this an efficient way of cutting fuel costs. Think of it as a 'catalyst' for the combustion process in the engine.

There are other technologies which may be coming onto the market in the fairly near future though, unless they are also somehow sabatoged. The following links are to some which appear to be very promising:
_www.blacklightpower.com
_http://plasmerg.com/
_https://www.keshefoundation.com/energy_system.html

There are quite a few others, and no doubt some scams and duds amongst them, but it is possible we will see some real progress in 'alternate energy' fairly soon. We will have to (as always) wait and see.

 

[Divide by Zero]

Thanks Richard,
I am still skeptical until I learn at how they are breaking the H2O bonds with less energy. It's basically saying that they are making free energy, which I'm all for but within the rules of chemistry/physics it still doesn't sound plausible.

Also whats the deal with HHO as the name of the gas? Electrolosis of water gets you H2 (more stable Hydrogen) and O2. 2 H20 + energy = 2 H2 + 1 02
Methinks HHO is a gimmick name, unless they can see that it is really some kind of different bond created.

There needs to be a real test of a device, like where they measure wattage into the special gas generator and find out how much energy the gas gives out, or calculate how much energy would it normally take to make the gas.

 

[chaps23]

EDIT: REPLY TO Divide By Zero

Do a little research, even type your question into google and you may just come up with the response your looking for,

By all means stay sceptical, I was, then I was fortunate enough to see it in action on a generator. Now I'm a believer. I'm attempting to build one soon so if all of a sudden I stop posting on this forum I'm probably in hostpital with third degree burns. :P

If all goes well I will surely place loads of video's on here for you to see. There are only 2 issues holding production firstly $$$ at the moment platinum is expensive (and will probably remain this way), I choose platinum over stainless steel to ensure efficiency as stainless steel wears over time in the electrolysis solution, which therefore decreases the ammount produced and since I want to make a generator run soley on HHO it needs to be a steady uninterupted flow of gas at a certain pressure. Secondly I really want to get the parts infront of me before experimenting to find the best way to build this there are a few different ways to make this so I plan on adding few other quirky bits and pieces to ensure some degree of safety is in place ie Regulator and pressure release valve.

Alot of the units you have probably looked at are for cars, and probably not built to sustain a steady flow of gas and look dodgy at best (I have even seen some made from jam jars). So I fully understand your scepticism.

Give me a couple of months and I should have it sorted and wish me luck that I dont kill myself in the trying.


Regards, Brent

 

[D69]

You should take a look at Manganese Dioxide Electrodes (for chlorate or HHO cells). -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjKYiu8eKa8

Here is a channel of this guy on youtube, so you can see a walkthrough of how to get all needed materials, in a cheap way, on other movies.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NurdRage

 

[clerck de bonk]

Give me a couple of months and I should have it sorted and wish me luck that I dont kill myself in the trying.
Regards, Brent

A truckload of luck coming Your way! :)
Be/make safe and tell us all about it!

 

[Richs]

Thanks Richard,
I am still skeptical until I learn at how they are breaking the H2O bonds with less energy. It's basically saying that they are making free energy, which I'm all for but within the rules of chemistry/physics it still doesn't sound plausible.

Also whats the deal with HHO as the name of the gas? Electrolosis of water gets you H2 (more stable Hydrogen) and O2. 2 H20 + energy = 2 H2 + 1 02
Methinks HHO is a gimmick name, unless they can see that it is really some kind of different bond created.

I'm not really sure why they named it "HHO". Perhaps because it has some unusual properties not normally associated with Hydrogen and Oxygen gas mixture. At any rate, maybe it is not so much because of the hydrogen as the following article might indicate:

_http://changingpower.net/articles/hho-not-combustion-maybe-not-hydrogen/

"HHO – not combustion & maybe not hydrogen

March 24, 2011 | by Jeane

Returned this week from a conference at the University of Maryland co-sponsored by Tom Valone’s Integrity Research Institute. Moray King, in photo, presented his potentially world-changing hypothesis — and new ideas for testing it.

You may have heard about water-as-fuel, or HHO, also known as “Brown’s Gas”, “hydroxy” etc. Engineer/author King has been tying together what is known about it. While hobbyists worldwide are doing water electrolysis to make that gas, a few university scientists are analyzing it. The energetic anomalies that happen when it’s used are well-known, such as a cool-to-touch welding torch flame that vaporizes tungsten and transmutes elements. Small amounts of the gas boost cars’ gasoline mileage, and we hear reports of a few generators running as “closed-loop” systems – even running 100 per cent on that unusual gas made in an electrolyzer powered only by the generator.

The skeptics may be right in saying that a hydrogen-based system couldn’t do what the experimenters are claiming. However, maybe hydrogen isn’t the source of excess energy, King says. Those scientific analyses indicate that the most energetically successful “HHO” gas contains hardly any hydrogen!

King’s new idea about the source of excess energy and how to maximize its flow was proposed at the 2011 Conference on Future Energy. In his paper “Water Electrolyzers and Zero-Point Energy”, he said the HHO community may have inadvertently discovered a surprisingly simple way to tap into the background energy found everywhere. Creating the maximum turbulence in water may be a way to tap it.

Most HHO investigators believe the energy output is from burning hydrogen. To the contrary, King suggests the dominant energy comes from “charged water gas clusters which activate and coherently trap zero-point energy.” Pre-conditioning the apparatus’ electrodes, smaller gaps between them, pulsing a certain electromagnetic waveform, and rapidly circulating or vibrating the water to make turbulence probably multiplies the creation of those clusters.

When both hobbyists and academics understand what seems to be a new form of water, they can design super-efficient water-as-fuel devices. King’s idea, invoking images of electrostatic-rubbing energizing droplets of water — think the dynamics in a thundercloud — may be the key.

Moray King has given his PowerPoint presentation to Sterling Allan to post on the PESwiki.com website. I see that as an exemplary sharing of information. Experimenters can read King’s suggestions and then try variations of their experiments. Maybe they won’t need any electrolyte. In a conversation after his talk, Moray said they might want to try using only a “smidgen” of electrolyte. Maybe try incorporating a mesh of fine copper wire into some new design for an electrolyzer. Feeding the water in from the bottom of the electrolyzer’s plates would improve the circulation of water, he says.
”You want the maximum turbulence.”

What has slowed progress in the water-fuel scene? “The problem is the belief that they’re making hydrogen,” King says. A change in thinking could result in “a stampede of garage inventors” creating useful technologies. If the universities don’t lead the charge, then at least they can follow – with the careful studies that will eventually give the academic seal of approval to a new body of science – and game-changing clean energy technologies.

Then the mainstream pundits can look up Moray King to find out the source of excess energy and learn that zero-point energy, or the background energy of the universe by whatever name is settled upon, is always with us. It’s even acknowledged in peer-reviewed physics journals but only in the cautious tunnel-vision limited way that doesn’t talk about doing serious work with it. It’s time to admit to the possibilities for replacing polluting fuels!"

 

[Divide by Zero]

EDIT: REPLY TO Divide By Zero

Do a little research, even type your question into google and you may just come up with the response your looking for,
[/b]

I have done my research a while back and looked it up again the other day. So far I have not seen an explanation of anything beyond normal electrolysis with a catalyst. The catalyst can only help improve the efficiency of conversion to 100%, but yet some claim to have a generator that makes more gas to produce energy over the energy inputted into the system. That is my main gripe, without the data to back it up. We really need to apply the scientific method to test the claims of this. Even if the process itself cannot be explained, energy out - energy in should be greater than zero to say that it is over unity.

Some of them claim that the engine runs on water alone! But again, I have no actual explanation of what is going on or data to show that more energy comes out than was put in. I have seen videos of people using the gas in a torch, but that explains nothing- in fact seems more like a gimmick.

On the other hand, when I read about a cure for cancer in the forum that is shelved by the industry, I can understand the process.

As for using it in an engine, the real test would be to start off with a full tank reset the odometer and drive until it is close to empty. Then compare to it without HHO. Tweaking the oxygen sensor or map sensor is also mentioned, but that in itself would create gains even on an engine running straight gasoline (lean burn as has been done in the past).

Forgive me if I have missed any links, but seriously I looked and cannot find anything solid.

 

[chaps23]

Reply to divide by zero.

Hold on a couple of months I will have a crack at it.

 

[Voyageur]

Just to add to the various forms of wind powered systems posted, here is a conceptual design that takes into account human interfacing, birds etc. It takes up space however has interesting aspects that do not have the altitude risks. They also discus conceptually the design working underwater like bending reeds. It is claimed that an individual combined system (280,000sq ft) would produce similar kv to a wind turbine farm.

Here is a little formula someone posted that unpacks traditional wind turbine voltage and Kwh’s

Energy = Power x Time

Electric power produced = conversion efficiency x gross wind power

Gross wind power = power density x turbine swept area

So, with all the equations at hand, we can solve the problem.

Turbine swept area = 2 x pi x (25 m)^2 = 3927 m^2
Wind power density = 500 W/m^2

Thus, Gross wind power = 500 W/m^2 x 3927 m^2 = 1.9635 x10^6 W = 1.9635 MW

Electric power produced = 0.25 * 1.9635 MW = 0.49087 MW

Since the problem identifies the wind power as long-term average, we can calculate the average energy produced in a year.

Energy (Joules) = Watts x seconds
Energy = 0.49087 MW x 31536000 s = 15.487 x10^6 MJ
But the question asked for energy measured in kilowatt-hours (kWh).

So, Energy = 490.87 kW * 8760 h = 4300100 kWh produced in 1 year.

Unfortunately, a real wind turbine would produce this energy in an unscheduleable manner, typically peaking when the demand (load) is lowest. That's the challenge of wind energy.

Source(s):
Electric power engineer who is actively involved in interconnecting large wind power plants to the grid.

Here also is a calculator with input data’s that will give one the Kwh values based on blade size, wind speed etc. of a traditional wind turbine.
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Calculate-kWh-Generated-by-Wind-Turbine.htm

Note: The link has a few more images than was linked here.

http://news.discovery.com/tech/wind-power-without-the-blades.html

Wind Power Without the Blades:

Noise from wind turbine blades, inadvertent bat and bird kills and even the way wind turbines look have made installing them anything but a breeze. New York design firm Atelier DNA has an alternative concept that ditches blades in favor of stalks. Resembling thin cattails, the Windstalks generate electricity when the wind sets them waving. The designers came up with the idea for the planned city Masdar, a 2.3-square-mile, automobile-free area being built outside of Abu Dhabi. Atelier DNA’s “Windstalk” project came in second in the Land Art Generator competition a contest sponsored by Madsar to identify the best work of art that generates renewable energy from a pool of international submissions.



The proposed design calls for 1,203 “stalks,” each 180-feet high with concrete bases that are between about 33- and 66-feet wide. The carbon-fiber stalks, reinforced with resin, are about a foot wide at the base tapering to about 2 inches at the top. Each stalk will contain alternating layers of electrodes and ceramic discs made from piezoelectric material, which generates a current when put under pressure. In the case of the stalks, the discs will compress as they sway in the wind, creating a charge.

“The idea came from trying to find kinetic models in nature that could be tapped to produce energy,” explained Atelier DNA founding partner Darío Núñez-Ameni.

In the proposal for Masdar, the Windstalk wind farm spans 280,000 square feet. Based on rough estimates, said Núñez-Ameni the output would be comparable to that of a conventional wind farm covering the same area.

“Our system is very efficient in that there is no friction loss associated with more mechanical systems such as conventional wind turbines,” he said.


Each base is slightly different, and is sloped so that rain will funnel into the areas between the concrete to help plants grow wild. These bases form a sort of public park space and serve a technological purpose. Each one contains a torque generator that converts the kinetic energy from the stalk into energy using shock absorber cylinders similar to the kind being developed by Cambridge, Massachusetts-based Levant Power .

Wind isn’t constant, though, so Núñez-Ameni says two large chambers below the whole site will work like a battery to store energy. The idea is based on existing hydroelectric pumped storage systems. Water in the upper chamber will flow through turbines to the lower chamber, releasing stored energy until the wind starts up again.


The top of each tall stalk has an LED lamp that glows when the wind is blowing -- more intensely during strong winds and not all when the air is still. The firm anticipates that the stalks will behave naturally, vibrating and fluttering in the air.

“Windstalk is completely silent, and the image associated with them is something we're already used to seeing in a field of wheat or reeds in a marsh. Our hope is that people living close to them will like to walk through the field -- especially at night -- under their own, private sky of swarming stars,” said Núñez-Ameni.

After completion, a Windstalk should be able to produce as much electricity as a single wind turbine, with the advantage that output could be increased with a denser array of stalks. Density is not possible with conventional turbines, which need to be spaced about three times the rotor's diameter in order to avoid air turbulence. But Windstalks work on chaos and turbulence so they can be installed much closer together, said Núñez-Ameni.

Núñez-Ameni also reports that the firm is currently working on taking the Windstalk idea underwater. Called Wavestalk, the whole system would be inverted to harness energy from the flow of ocean currents and waves. The firm’s long-term goal is to build a large system in the United States, either on land or in the water.