Yin and Yang

[Menna]

For the past 7-8 years it seems that my life has been a combination of extreme negative/positive yang experiences and then a lul that leads me to realize what is right what I should/shouldn't do the next time. This leads me to realize what I want in life and where I want to be and now I am going to work towards it. However I would like to know if anyone else's life has been similar to this (yang experiences - intense...then yin experiences - passive) In what ways did one protect themselves to avoid the drastic swing and remain somewhere in the middle/closer to the yin side I would like to use the knowledge gained so far and work towards the life I want and will attain in a few years however the real goal is no more painful yang experiences. Yes the knowledge and improvement in self is a plus however it comes at a energy draining/tarnished emotional-mental faculties price. I guess to sum it up I am basically asking what is the best way to cash out...Take what I have learned so far and remain as close to balance as possible... Any recommendations insight will be helpful...Thanks

 

[edgitarra]

Hey Menna, are you having difficult times? From what you wrote there, I can only tell that to be a balanced man takes a long time. Sometimes it may take a whole life to do it. If there is a real wish for work, you always have to pay for your actions. There is no progress without sacrifices and as Gurdjieff said:

“Man must use what he has, not hope for what is not.”
“Better to die than live in sleep.”
"We never reach the limits of our strength. "

 

[Tigersoap]

Hi Menna,

It is a necessary process to go through ups and downs and some internal balance can only be achieved through sometimes painful experiences. Trying to avoid upsetting situations isn't realistically possible but paying attention to recurring patterns in your life might help to negotiate the transition in a smoother manner. Becoming more aware of possible situations where you might end up distressed seems a good approach but it's not something that might always save you from negative experiences. It's all a work in progress.

The universe always balance things out so there will always be a positive side and a negative one and it's up to us to accept it and go through it.

Yes the knowledge and improvement in self is a plus however it comes at a energy draining/tarnished emotional-mental faculties price.

Do you have an example of this ?

 

[whitecoast]

For the past 7-8 years it seems that my life has been a combination of extreme negative/positive yang experiences and then a lul that leads me to realize what is right what I should/shouldn't do the next time. This leads me to realize what I want in life and where I want to be and now I am going to work towards it. However I would like to know if anyone else's life has been similar to this (yang experiences - intense...then yin experiences - passive) In what ways did one protect themselves to avoid the drastic swing and remain somewhere in the middle/closer to the yin side I would like to use the knowledge gained so far and work towards the life I want and will attain in a few years however the real goal is no more painful yang experiences. Yes the knowledge and improvement in self is a plus however it comes at a energy draining/tarnished emotional-mental faculties price. I guess to sum it up I am basically asking what is the best way to cash out...Take what I have learned so far and remain as close to balance as possible... Any recommendations insight will be helpful...Thanks

Hi Menna. Apologies in advance if I'm reading too much into your words here. I second Tigersoap in saying that more concrete examples would be helpful, since not all of us speak the same symbolic language.

Yin sounds like it's a contemplative/reflective phase in which you are recapitulating and evaluating your actions. Yang sounds like it's the active/testing phase, in which the positive and negative fruits are born.

Yin-yang is a symbol characterized as a circle. Do you feel like you are going in circles? Often if we are not learning a lesson presented to us, we will encounter the same type of situations or relationships over and over again until we finally understand. It sounds like you may be (A) not acquiring enough knowledge or correct knowledge to see what causes the negative results in testing, or (B) acquiring the knowledge but not correctly applying it due to lack of being.

The goal of "becoming more yin" to me sounds like you're trying to avoid the negative results of yang, as if it is intrinsic to yang. I don't think it is. It's important to remember that your experiences and life events are a reflection of your emotional and intellectual life, which you refine and fine-tune in yin. Withdrawing into yin can itself be an addiction to escape, which is just as problematic as constant action without reflection.

I think tightening the cycle between testing (yang) and reflection (yin) is the proper action, since it means there's more continuous knowledge input and ability to stand back from the heat of the situation and see things. That, obviously, depends on your ability to remember yourself, regulate your emotional drives, not identify, and observe your behaviour and strive to see how others see you.

That's the most specific I can get without examples.

 

[Menna]

Hey Menna, are you having difficult times?

Not currently and this is why I am coming to this realization because I like the peaceful time now.

If there is a real wish for work, you always have to pay for your actions

Exactly, you have to pay hence the term "cash out" I feel that I am running out of payment and the little I do have I want to hold on to. I can see who I was and how I have progressed and I like who I am now but at the same time there are memories situations that have affected my emotions and then mental center and occasionally when these memories come up it triggers these emotions mental activity and it is hurtful and drains energy/slows me down this is what I mean by tarnished emotional mental center. Take a look at Laura’s signature it is very true and very real. Yes you get drops of knowledge but the other stuff doesn't just go away especially for the people here that are all about the truth. So with these feelings I have now I feel that I am at a tipping point where I like where I am at and want balance. That's why I am asking in what ways have people who have got to this point done to protect their emotional center/mental center from sorrowful expriences?

paying attention to recurring patterns in your life

Yes over the past 1-2 months I have been better with this realizing what mistakes I have made in previous jobs, relationships, interactions, interests and adjusting my actions to avoid the same mistakes.

The universe always balance things out so there will always be a positive side and a negative one and it's up to us to accept it and go through it.

I am starting to see this - this is why I write this post. So no matter how much knowledge we have - knowledge that is gained through pain/positivity there will always be positive/negative and we should just accept that as fact. I feel that regardless of how much we know or learn how much free will we develop we will always be the universes puppets to a certain extent.

Do you feel like you are going in circles?

More like from one end of the pendulum to the next.

not acquiring enough knowledge or correct knowledge to see what causes the negative results in testing

From these experiences I have acquired knowledge universal truths I recognize them but like it is said you have to pay for it and I feel that this payment comes from the emotional, mental and physical centers.

Withdrawing into yin can itself be an addiction to escape, which is just as problematic as constant action without reflection.

Correct but I don't want to withdraw but live more in the middle.

I think tightening the cycle between testing (yang) and reflection (yin) is the proper action, since it means there's more continuous knowledge input and ability to stand back from the heat of the situation and see things

Yes mitigating the damage from yang and then transitioning to yin would be the best way to engage yin and yang I feel however that there should be a word for the middle of yin and yang and that is where I would like to be. I feel that books are a great way to gain knowledge in a safe way without paying (except for the books) but the knowledge is not as true until you have it in your experience it is more personal and effects your being. Gaining the knowledge from experience without it effecting your mental or emotional centers in a negative way would be great.

Examples - If an employee does something wrong you are there boss and you fire them or judge the situation wrong and react too harshly yes you now KNOW to react better for the next time but how about what you did. OR in a relationship overreacting or being too narcissistic or code pendent ok now you KNOW how to better act in next relationship how to better treat people but what about what happened. I feel that gaining knowledge through mistakes is like collateral damage and I feel that there should be a better way to gain knowledge. I am not saying that I know this better way or trying to point a finger at the universe just that I recognize life for what it is more and more and thus feel that my views are changing and at times it is better to be naïve and lucky or get to a certain point on the learning cycle and then step off the ride.

 

[Buddy]

Withdrawing into yin can itself be an addiction to escape, which is just as problematic as constant action without reflection.

Correct but I don't want to withdraw but live more in the middle.

Hi menna. If you look closely at a yin/yang symbol you might notice the middle in that symbol is shaped like the letter "S". This is the "wave" of change and riding this wave is the only way I know to be in the "middle." Emotions let you feel your aliveness; your inner evaluations, valuations, values, and I know of no way to 'protect' myself from them.

What you seem to be asking for is a sort of stasis, but maybe it would be better if you just learned how to prevent a kind of self-pitying over-indulgence in sorrow from past mistakes?

My suggestion as an analogy would be to think of sorrow as that roommate you keep around because he helps pay the rent, but since he talks too much, you keep him at a distance so you don't have to give him much attention only you're not realizing that the need to monitor this act of keeping distance keeps him on your mind, so you're defeating your own purposes.

Might as well let him draw closer and get to know him better and find out what he might teach you that you don't know...that is, unless you think there is nothing more you need to learn...?

[quote author=Menna]
Examples - If an employee does something wrong you are there boss and you fire them or judge the situation wrong and react too harshly yes you now KNOW to react better for the next time but how about what you did. OR in a relationship overreacting or being too narcissistic or code pendent ok now you KNOW how to better act in next relationship how to better treat people but what about what happened. I feel that gaining knowledge through mistakes is like collateral damage and I feel that there should be a better way to gain knowledge.[/quote]

I don't blame you for wanting to live a life without pain. I would like that too. I'm curious, about the above, though. In a circumstance where you really "KNOW to react better for the next time" and "now you KNOW how to better act in next relationship", why would there be a mystery regarding "what about what (already) happened?" What is this "knowing?" Or are you referring to the idea of making amends?

 

[SeekinTruth]

Seems to me it's just the way we are and the way life is at this level: knowing NOW how to behave better in relationships and situations IS the learning from having done it "wrong" in the past. If we are thoughtful and observant and sincere, we avoid doing the wrong things we've done in the past if we've learned from them. But the only reason we DID learn and will avoid repeating the same mistakes is that we DID realize how they negatively effected others and ourselves. Can't see any way of avoiding it all, unless we learn so much that we can learn from others' mistakes and have no need to learn that lesson from our own experience - we gain the information we need without making the mistakes ourselves.

 

[obyvatel]

Exactly, you have to pay hence the term "cash out" I feel that I am running out of payment and the little I do have I want to hold on to. I can see who I was and how I have progressed and I like who I am now but at the same time there are memories situations that have affected my emotions and then mental center and occasionally when these memories come up it triggers these emotions mental activity and it is hurtful and drains energy/slows me down this is what I mean by tarnished emotional mental center. Take a look at Laura’s signature it is very true and very real. Yes you get drops of knowledge but the other stuff doesn't just go away especially for the people here that are all about the truth. So with these feelings I have now I feel that I am at a tipping point where I like where I am at and want balance. That's why I am asking in what ways have people who have got to this point done to protect their emotional center/mental center from sorrowful expriences?

Suffering of a certain kind perhaps cannot be avoided if we wish to learn and grow in the environment of 3D earth. What we can do is distinguish between useful and useless suffering and avoid the latter as much as possible. What is useless suffering? One example could be the suffering that comes from resisting reality. We have made mistakes in the past as a result of which we have hurt others and ourselves. That is reality. Wishing that things had happened differently and agonizing over how it could have turned out if only we had acted differently is like refusing to accept the reality of the situation. What could perhaps be useful suffering in this context is to accept what has happened in all its ugliness, accept the unpleasant emotions that come up, and learn from the experience.

[quote author=Menna]
I am starting to see this - this is why I write this post. So no matter how much knowledge we have - knowledge that is gained through pain/positivity there will always be positive/negative and we should just accept that as fact. I feel that regardless of how much we know or learn how much free will we develop we will always be the universes puppets to a certain extent.
[/quote]

One way to look at it is that we exist to fulfill certain purpose in the universe, so in a sense we are puppets, and accepting that is a big step. What we can choose is whether to be an "unconscious slave" or a "conscious servant".

[quote author=Menna]
I feel that gaining knowledge through mistakes is like collateral damage and I feel that there should be a better way to gain knowledge.
[/quote]

Menna, mistakes are a part of life on 3D earth. Accepting that at a deeper level is useful - and the biggest resistance to this acceptance perhaps comes from our self importance. We do not have to like making mistakes so that we can learn but just accept them when they occur without excessive blame and wishing things were otherwise. We can do our best to learn from them, both our own and those of others. Here lies the value of networking as everyone can learn from mistakes made by others. That imo is one of better ways of gaining knowledge that is open to us.

[quote author=Menna]
I am not saying that I know this better way or trying to point a finger at the universe just that I recognize life for what it is more and more and thus feel that my views are changing and at times it is better to be naïve and lucky or get to a certain point on the learning cycle and then step off the ride.
[/quote]

I hear you when you talk about the wish to go back to a more naive state, be lucky or step off the ride. We can feel this pull in different ways. I think this pull too comes as an inevitable part of life on 3D earth where the default mode of existence is STS and hence this pull to go back towards sleep.

I find the Stoic practice of distinguishing between what is in our control and what is not in our control practically useful. It is not in my control to not have this pull towards sleep. What is in my control is whether I recognize and resist it when it comes. It is not in my control to change things that have happened in the past. It is in my control to accept what has happened and learn from it.

fwiw

 

[Menna]

but maybe it would be better if you just learned how to prevent a kind of self-pitying over-indulgence in sorrow from past mistakes?

Believe me I thought about this topic as being noise if it should be posted in the swamp. I thought am I letting self pity get the best of me. Then i thought about the times when these emotions come up. I will be sitting alone or my mind will start to wonder during daily activities like it does a few times a day (no way around this to keep constant attention for 10min is a miracle) and I thought about what I do when these emotions come up and what happens is - The memories start in my mental center this causes an emotional reaction in me around my navel that then travels up back towards my head that makes me start to cry I then shake it off after about 30 sec and continue on with life however this happens a few times a day on a good day only twice on some days certain events in life that I come across i.e a movie will trigger this mental activity then emotional activity and on other good days it only happens once or twice. So in other words I don't believe this is over indulgence in sorrow its just thoughts that come in from the outside that then cause this emotion in me. I know that this is something new because 3-4 years ago this hasn't happened to me before these experiences/new knowledge this is why I say in some ways I am greatfull for the knowledge but feel anymore mistake/experiences like these will cause more situations described above in frequency or intensity. Talk about having to use strategic incloser if my mind starts to wonder around others, at work, when socializing and this chain reaction is set off I have to fight the sequence to the point where I feel it inside but on the outside nothing seems to be going on to others.

Can't see any way of avoiding it all

Agreed... thats why I am asking if there is

unless we learn so much that we can learn from others' mistakes and have no need to learn that lesson from our own experience - we gain the information we need without making the mistakes ourselves.

Yes one of my favorite quotes - some people learn from being wiped and some people learn from seeing the wip. This is why I believe we are puppets to a certaint extent and when the wave/C's talk about on some level deep down we chose to be here. With these past eperiences I feel like there was an external force that not only allowed them to happen but facilitated the happening. Even though one might be smart enough to learn from others mistakes (now i have no proof of what I am going to say) I feel that there is a certain something inside us that yearns for experiences draws us to them something esoteric however we have little control over how the experiences turn out and after the experience I am the one being left to sit mull it over and left will the memeories good or bad while this esoteric something fades away.

What could perhaps be useful suffering in this context is to accept what has happened in all its ugliness, accept the unpleasant emotions that come up, and learn from the experience.

Exactly - I do accept these emotions thats the thing these emotions trigger a sorrowful reaction in my emotional center for a few seconds the only time I try to hide them is when in public. I am greatful that I have new knowledge because I can be better for myself and others but this knowledge came at a price (collateral damage)

One way to look at it is that we exist to fulfill certain purpose in the universe, so in a sense we are puppets, and accepting that is a big step. What we can choose is whether to be an "unconscious slave" or a "conscious servant"

Agreed this is what I am starting to realize puppets and our Mechanical nature which for even the most advanced in the work will always be there I'd say make up about 70-80% of our lives even more so for those that are asleep/not working on self. So then we struggle learn and struggle again for the last 10%-20% of control over our lives thats why I said maybe its better to be naive and lucky or take what has been learned and step off the cycle because I feel I have 12% control and is the last 8% worth it kind of like ill take my profit. But again I do believe on some level we chose to be here and will this something, driving force allow for this. This is why I ask any strategies to stop the force.

Accepting that at a deeper level is useful - and the biggest resistance to this acceptance perhaps comes from our self importance.

Also I believe it comes from my father. Regardless of the mistake wether it be burning toast or burning a house down there was no seperation it was always - he saw a mistake was made gave that person the third degree as to why it was made and then ridiculed it and then would bring it up again and again - this is purhapes what leads me to not accepting mistakes as part of life because I was under the influence for two and a half decades that any mistake was a horrible thing - This is something I should work on.

I find the Stoic practice of distinguishing between what is in our control and what is not in our control practically useful.

Agreed and this was most of my motivation for entering the work to find meaning growing up there was little seperation as to what was important and what wasn't everything was a big deal and I observed that living this way wasn't right so I looked for another way and here i am.

I wanted to be able to know objectively what is "right and what is "wrong" in different situation and then be able to use control to make the situation right to make life right to make things better. But now I am starting to realize that what everyone thinks is "right" is just idealism and the real work lies in going beyond "right" and "wrong" and being able to guage and react to situation from another vantage point and I believe this vantage point comes mostly if not only through experiences, mistakes experiences and mistakes. So to be able to really control or handle situation the right way you have to first experience bad and good situations make mistakes learn from them and then you can reach a new level of reality new level of perception. The only problem is most of the time you are the only one on this level and to get there you have to sacrifice peace of mind and comfort. "Buyer be wear"...

There is a quote that I have always liked... "There is a field beyond what is right and wrong I will meet you there" this is the field that I have wanted to be in and I am starting to see it the only problem is even thought it looks like a peaceful field I don't see anyone else there and I don't think my frequency after these experiences will match up with its peacefulness because of the mental to emotional reactions described above... To be in my 20's feeling this way can't be healthy there is alot of life left and I don't agree with people when they say life is short I believe it to be long. Even though I am seeing where I want to be when I get there can I actually BE THERE leaving what it took to get there behind because it doesn't fit into this new shape I wish to BE but at times life doesn't allow it.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Menna, it seems to me that you are keeping a lot inside. A few people have asked you here to be more specific about the experiences that are causing you anguish. A lot of your descriptions have been very abstract and intellectual and you may be buffering. Except for what you wrote about your father.

So, if you're OK with sharing, what were the situations that cause you sadness now when they come to your mind? I think just writing it out here will help you.

 

[Buddy]

So in other words I don't believe this is over indulgence in sorrow its just thoughts that come in from the outside that then cause this emotion in me. I know that this is something new because 3-4 years ago this hasn't happened to me before these experiences/new knowledge this is why I say in some ways I am greatfull for the knowledge but feel anymore mistake/experiences like these will cause more situations described above in frequency or intensity. Talk about having to use strategic incloser if my mind starts to wonder around others, at work, when socializing and this chain reaction is set off I have to fight the sequence to the point where I feel it inside but on the outside nothing seems to be going on to others.

OK, my apologies for being off the mark there. It seems I was missing that these were mostly experiences happening at work or places when it's a bad time to go ahead and try to process it all. I would suggest, though, that you recall these situations later during meditation or contemplation when the emotional processing might actually be therapeutic and possibly lead to some realization of what mistake(s) might have been made.

The only other idea I can think to mention ATM refers to:

[quote author=Menna]
There is a quote that I have always liked... "There is a field beyond what is right and wrong I will meet you there" this is the field that I have wanted to be in and I am starting to see it the only problem is even thought it looks like a peaceful field I don't see anyone else there and I don't think my frequency after these experiences will match up with its peacefulness because of the mental to emotional reactions described above...[/quote]

That reads like you've been exposed to Zen in some form or other and have intuited the garden of non-contradiction, so-to-speak. That's seems like a familiar way of expressing a desire for a certain Zen state of mind.

In one of Pirsig's books, a character said "Assembly of Japanese bicycle require great piece of mind", which, when you understand Zen, you can extend to other activities in life.

Applying the concept requires experimenting with submerging the ego while imagining the bicycle is using you to assemble itself. You start the task with peace of mind and then experience the various tensions related to movements and decisions associated with the act of assembly, working as quietly, gracefully and efficiently as possible. You'll know when the job is done and done right because then peace of mind returns - but only then. If it doesn't, then you need to focus on the 'part' that is bothering you and do whatever is necessary, expend whatever effort is required, until you reach clarity. That's why the job "requires" peace of mind: esoterically speaking, it's the end that returns to its beginning.

An accomplished Zen student realizes the limits of his personality and its' simplistic understanding of how things are and ought to be and its infantile demands that everything 'go right' the first time. There's an amazing contrast possible here, the beauty of which may also make you cry.

If and when you feel up to sharing I also second Mr. Premise's post.

 

[Menna]

There are many stories of situation where I thought I was doing right and now that my thinking knowledge level has changed I know that I did wrong. These situations knowing that they couldn't have turned out any other way because I was who I was. However when thinking about them when they enter into my thoughts they create a reaction in me that causes a sorrowful feeling sometime resulting in tears. What I am asking is... now that I have changed my thinking have more knowledge will this reaction always happen is this a part of my life now just accept it? Asking if other people have had this happen after being in the work for a few years and making progress is there a way to stop it or just accept it and continue on with life. I don't want to buffer the truth my past I don't want to run from the truth because I know if I do then I will be kept in the same lessons but I would like to think about past without this reaction happening inside me

 

[Mr. Premise]

Menna, you're still being very abstract. Without concrete examples of what those mistakes in the past actually were, it's hard to give any advice. It would make a difference to know how serious those mistakes were. For all we know they could be just normal kinds of things everyone does and learns from, or they could be more serious. Again, if you're not comfortable sharing, that's fine, but if you want help from the network, you get out what you put in.

 

[Menna]

Again it’s not one in particular but a collection of mistakes, wrong actions that affected another person’s and my own life in a negative way.

One example - At work I had to discipline a student not knowing all the information where this student comes from or his back round he eventually was suspended. He came from a broken home and didn't have much guidance I didn't know or search for the bigger picture. there are a few examples like this

another example - In my relationships not allowing the other to do what they want even though it was hidden from me in the beginning ie, smoking, religion, I had a rigid short sided view now I can look at my actions and see how it caused the other pain or made the relationship harder for the other and intern led to the relationship ending. Then at the end of the relationship being emotionally immature and shutting the other person out not remaining "friends" or in contact because I was too "hurt"

another example - Seeing how almost hopeless society is how everyone is bouncing off eachother narcissistic, codependent selfish tendencies. I have made mistakes and I know this and these mistakes were made with good intentions and along the way I was/am trying to improve myself to think about all the people out there who are asleep causing unconciouse harm to others and then the chain reaction is set in motion its an overwellming hopless feeling. Hence me saying its almost better to be naïve and lucky or thinking I have learned enough how much more objective negative truth can I take.

It’s a collection of my old ways my old actions under my old way of thinking and seeing how destructive it was. When these situations pop into my thoughts it creates a reaction in my solar plexus that travels up to my head and it’s a sorrowful feeling sometimes resulting in tears/heavy breathing. Just want to know if these stops or if this is something I have to just live with. Again I am grateful that now I can be a better person I am wiser but at the same time reaching this level came with I guess you can say...Side effects

 

[outcydr]

Menna, I don't know you very well so this may or may not help. I hope it will.

Q: When I try to work on remorse, there is always some part of me that refuses, that tells me that it is useless, that it will not lead anywhere or to anything. I wish to understand better the use of remorse, its necessity, to enable me to convince myself and struggle against this refusal.

Mr. G: It is very simple. Look at this. (He takes a section of a tangerine from plate). This is destined to become jam, it has to become jam, it was made for that. But it is full of salt. What should be done? It must be washed, soaked, cleaned to remove the salt. Afterward it can become jam. With the salt it is impossible. Remorse is that which removes the salt. This is what purifies. You understand.