The Carnivore Diet

As her father, Jordan, apparently wrote to her, most Lyme tests are quite unreliable. I read quite a lot about Lyme disease a few years ago, and it was quite a jungle of varying opinions about the testing. “Fresh” Lyme with spirochetes seems to be quite easy to determine, but those chronic ‘dormant’ variants are almost impossible to test for reliably. At least, that’s what I remember from reading.

In any case, Lyme is one nasty disease, and its intelligent ways of hiding and mutating seems almost otherworldly, which makes me wonder about the designer, the intelligence behind it.
 
We don't know if the carnivore diet is sustainable at long-term for all people. It might be good for some people, but others clearly don't need to be so restrictive.

Some people do better with more meat in their diet, while others need more carbs to thrive. One potential reason behind the "diversity" was discussed in this thread, where Dr. Nicholas Gonzales' book "Nutrition and the Autonomic Nervous System" was mentioned:

 
My experience with around 10 days full carnivore (only beef, pork, butter, salt, water); crazy headache on day 2, made worse by quitting coffee, extremely thirsty, around day 5 almost no cravings for carbs of any kind, mental clarity, deeper sleep, steady moods and increased focus and will power. I guess I can expect some sort of detox reaction but regular sauna use seems to help with this so far.

I've quit coffee a few times in the past, mainly because I got addicted and it begun to have the opposite of the desired effect, plus I was never thirsty. Doing this in combination with carnivore seemed to really help heal quicker.

It did seem like a bit of a hardcore choice so I wouldn't recommend it to someome who isn't already fat adapted.
 
Watched part of Joe Rogan's podcast with Dr. Rhonda Patrick where the carnivore diet was discussed, here are the notes:

The Carnivore Diet
  • “The diet could be dangerous without any long term evidence or scientific studies’
  • The diet does seem to improve autoimmune disorders
    • Why does it work?
      • Calorie restriction and fasting have been shown to allow for significant improvements in autoimmune diseases
        • People eat less when they eat a high protein diet
          • You have less insulin production, which changes your leptin and ghrelin levels (the satiety and hunger hormones, respectively), which causes you to eat less
        • Studies show that when people are given the same food every single day, naturally they start to eat less, and calorie restrict themselves
      • It replenishes the immune system through apoptosis
        • While fasting, or just calorie restricting to very low levels, entire cells are cleared away through a process known as apoptosis
        • During a 72 hour fast, animal studies show you can clear away about 30% of the immune system and replenish it with brand new healthy immune cells
        • Organs shrink during the fasting, and then re-expand when you eat
        • Autoimmune cells may be selectively killed off first, and replenished with non-autoimmune cells
      • It produces changes in the microbiome
        • The microbiome has been linked to autoimmunity in things like arthritis and multiple sclerosis (MS)
          • One study showed that when people with MS fasted every other day for 7 days, they experienced profound changes in the gut microbiome
          • They grew gut bacteria which produce more butyrate (this is a short chain fatty acid which gut cells love – it’s good for them), which helps the immune system produce for T-regulatory cells
  • There are negative changes, in terms of the gut microbiome that occur when following a carnivore diet
    • People that go from a high fiber, to a high protein (or carnviore diet), will tend create an environment in the gut that allows for the presence of more bacteria that ferment amino acids (like putrefactive bacteria)
      • Why is this not desirable? – Some species of putrefactive bacteria have been linked to colon cancer
        • These bacteria create genotoxic agents known as putracine and cadaverine which damage the DNA inside colon cells
      • By eating fiber/vegetables along with meat/protein – this promotes the growth of lactic acid producing bacteria (bifiodo, lactobacilius etc.) , which limits limits the growth of putrefactive bacteria
  • There are other ways to cure or help autoimmune issues, without going on such a restrictive diet
    • Do a prolonged fast 1x a quarter, depending on how severe the issues are
    • Do a fasting mimicking diet (FMD) once per month
    • One study showed that going on a ketogenic diet for three months, also improved symptoms of autoimmunity
  • “At the end of the day, there’s no data” – Going on a carnivore diet may be harmful long term
More of Rhonda’s Concerns with the Carnivore Diet
  • Rhonda has concerns about micronutrients (check out these Podcast Notes where Rhonda talks more about micronutrients)
    • Micronutrients (30 particular vitamins and minerals) are essential
      • They run our metabolism, are involved in making neurotransmitters, etc.
      • 22% of all enzymes in your body require a micronutrient to function
      • You don’t make micronutrients in your body, so you have to get them from your diet
      • How are RDAs of micronutrients set?
        • First, the EAR (estimated average intake) is looked at – you look at a given population, and determine how much of a given micronutrient the population needs so that 50% of the population has adequate levels
        • The RDA is set from that, 2 standard deviations above
        • For each micronutrient it’s different
        • “RDAs are set to prevent acute disease, but what about promoting optimal health”
    • Many micronutrients are much more concentrated, and easy to get, from plants
      • The biggest one of concern is vitamin C
        • Vitamin C is important for making collagen, converting dopamine to norepinepherine (important for the fight or flight response), and is an antioxidant
          • Scurvy happens when you don’t have enough vitamin C for collagen production (this is thought to be about only 10mg/day – it doesn’t take much)
          • So people on a carnivore diet are probably getting enough Vitamin C to prevent scurvy. but perhaps not enough to cover all the other things vitamin C is required for
        • Vitamin C has two forms – ascorbic acid (the reduced form – aka the antioxidant) and an oxidized form (dehydroascorbic acid)
        • The RDA for vitamin C is 90 mg/day for men and 75 mg/day for women
          • It’s been shown in guinea pigs, there are biological differences (even 10 fold) into how much vitamin C they required
      • Vitamin E is also a concern
        • Vitamin E helps recycle vitamin C and vice versa
        • It’s an antioxidant, but is also important for maintaining cell integrity – it’s located inside the cell membrane and prevents normal oxidative processes from happening there
        • The RDA is 15 mg
        • Nuts are the best source (almonds) of vitamin E, and sardines
      • Folate too…
        • Folate plays an important role in making new DNA
          • So low levels of folate, can lead to DNA damage – this is very hard to measure, and you don’t even know it’s happening
      • Magnesium
        • Enzymes to repair DNA damage require magnesium
        • Beef liver is a great source of magnesium
    • If you lack micronutrients…
      • There are enzymes that are required to prevent and repair DNA damage, and then there are enzymes that require a micronutrient to prevent short term disease
      • If there’s only so much of a micronutrient around, it will be used for the latter
  • What is you just ate a bunch of organ meat to get the micronutrients you’d be missing from vegetables?
    • You can do it – but it’s difficult, and most people probably won’t do it
  • By not eating vegetables, you’re missing out on key fiber that the gut needs
    • “We evolved eating plants”
    • There’s all these other things present in plants that people following a carnivore diet are missing out on – falvonoids, polyphenols, phytochemicals, etc.
    • You’re missing out on SULFORAPHANE
      • Broccolli sprouts are the biggest source, but it’s also present in brussel sprouts
      • Sulforaphane activates a variety of enzymes which help get rid of potentially harmful compounds in the body
      • Humans given sulforaphane extract show an increase of glutathione (a master antioxidant) in the brain – it plays a huge role in preventing brain aging
      • Sulforaphane has been found to improve symptoms of autism
    • There are literally so many beneficial things that come from eating vegetables – too many to mention
      • “Why would you want to eliminate a massive source of bioavailable nutrients” – Joe
 
I think this is a good choice. We don't know if the carnivore diet is sustainable at long-term for all people. It might be good for some people, but others clearly don't need to be so restrictive.

I agree. For my part, I did try to go for a month with strictly nothing else but bacon middle rashers as served and it did indeed worked great for me, I lost a significant amount of extra wait (about 18Kg within the next 2 months after this) and retrieved and awesome level of energy. As my partner witnessed this she decided to give it a try but gave up after a couple of week, feeling poorly and riddled with acid reflux.

I tend to agree with Mercola and others about the importance of blood type, me being O and my partner AB... Still looking into this however.

Anyone else have had the same or similar experience?
 
Watched part of Joe Rogan's podcast with Dr. Rhonda Patrick where the carnivore diet was discussed, here are the notes:
My thoughts based on a rudimentary understanding of the topics concerned:

Sulforaphane

Rhonda Patrick's position on sulforaphane is based mostly on petri-dish experiments, along with some context-specific circumstances.

Whilst it does upregulate NRF-2 (and subsequently increase glutathione), increasing glutathione is the primary result of that pathway... and there are lots of ways to increase glutathione. Eating lots of cysteine and glycine does that, and those amino acids are highest in... animal foods :lol:.

There are also lots of other ways to upregulate NRF-2: high intensity training, extreme cold, extreme heat,

In simple terms, minor stressors activate this pathway to allow the cell to adapt accordingly, by increasing endogenous antioxidants. Is this good in all scenarios? Maybe, but maybe not. Sulforaphane is a pesticide... meaning that it is toxic. Yes, it can kill cancer cells, but it can also kill healthy cells indiscriminately in certain situations.

My take on it is this: The situation is extraordinarily nuanced. Whilst it may be beneficial in certain circumstances, in a certain health condition, that does not imply that we should eat the stuff liberally across the board for every single person's daily diet. Hence, i fundamentally disagree with Patrick's assertion that human beings will be somehow deficient in sulforaphane... since we only adopted those veggies in most western countries a couple of centuries ago.

Fibre/Protein

Protein degradation by gut bacteria can produce isobutyrate, methylbutyrate, etc - so that argument is null. Likewise, a low fiber high fat ketogenic diet produces abundant beta-hydroxybutryate, which performs the same function as butyrate (and more!).

The studies done on protein putrefaction have been performed on people with standard diets and also lab-based models, so like most nutritional research, it is very difficult to draw conclusions based on these things. The essentiallity of fiber is one of conventional nutrition's long-held sacred cows, so it will not go down easily. I think its fair to say that some people may need fiber, but it is preposterous to say that everyone needs lots of it.

Nutrients

Folate - Paleomedicina have been doing this for a decade... Folate levels remain perfectly in range when organ meats are incorporated into the diet.

Vitamin E- Its main function is to protect certain PUFAs in the body, hence why it is found in the foods which contain the most degradable PUFA. Lowered intake of PUFA equates to drastically reduced vitamin E requirements.

Vitamin C - Only found in foods which also contain glucose/glycogen. Very likely spared and efficiently utilised in the absence of glucose/fructose.

My impression of Rhonda's stance

She's an extremely intelligent individual with a lot of knowledge regarding the detailed mechanisms and whatnot, but seems a little set-in her ways with her conventional training. I have listened to multiple podcasts that she has been interviewed on, and she tend to be very reluctant to experiment with these kinds of things. This seems to be similar for many PhDs who act as established authorities in the nutrition world, who can't quite get their head around this concept - as it challenges too many of their long-held beliefs.

I think the problem is that many trained scientists can't seem to look past the science. Rather than honestly looking at the thousands of anecdotal accounts of miracles taking place and then questioning/rethinking their theories, instead they try to explain it away in some way which fits in with their assumptions.

You will often hear "The reason that they benefit is because they have poor gut health, and if you were to fix their gut, then they would not need to go on a carnivore diet".

I think the above might be the case for some people, but it seems that for many, the only way to heal their gut is to eat animal foods and ONLY animal foods. This flies in the face of conventional and alternative nutritional training, and there are not many professionals (other than Rob Wolff etc) who are willing to look at it with an open mind.

Overall, it would be good if they could come up with some hard evidence supporting the necessity of plants, but until then, I am not convinced. Patrick's points are vague, and not backed by anything sold from what I can see so far (and I have looked to the best of my ability). That said, I could be wrong, and I hope that new information comes out to solve this case once an for all.
 
Well put, Keyhole. Re: Sulfurophane, Dr. Georgia Ede did a great article awhile back that puts a lot of its supposed benefits into question.

Aside from what you said, another thing I object to about Rhonda Patrick's carnivore debunking is her assertion that the benefits can all be boiled down to calorie restriction. I simply don't buy this.

The thing is, of all the carnivore groups I belong to, most people report eating large quantities of food. Like kilos per day of meat! And often people who are trouble-shooting and list off what they're eating are told they need to eat more if it's too low. It's anecdotal, of course, but from what I can see there is little-to-no calorie restriction happening with people who are doing the carnivore diet. From my own experience, when doing carnivore I seriously doubt I was eating any less without realizing it. I still had a strong appetite and was taking good sized portions.

She's an extremely intelligent individual with a lot of knowledge regarding the detailed mechanisms and whatnot, but seems a little set-in her ways with her conventional training. I have listened to multiple podcasts that she has been interviewed on, and she tend to be very reluctant to experiment with these kinds of things. This seems to be similar for many PhDs who act as established authorities in the nutrition world, who can't quite get their head around this concept - as it challenges too many of their long-held beliefs.

I think the problem is that many trained scientists can't seem to look past the science. Rather than honestly looking at the thousands of anecdotal accounts of miracles taking place and then questioning/rethinking their theories, instead they try to explain it away in some way which fits in with their assumptions.

Completely agree. When Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson first started talking publicly about their carnivore diet a number of nutritional expert-types started coming out saying "it's just calorie restriction, no big deal". But it's important to point out that this is just an assumption. They assume that because fat and protein are more satiating people will eat less if that's the totality of their diets. But this hasn't been studied, and rather than investigate they just grab an easy answer - what must be happening - so they can dismiss it and go back to their pet theories undisturbed. Even if people tend to eat fewer calories on the keto diet (which some claim is the case, but again, I'm skeptical), this can't simply be assumed to carry over to the carnivore diet. It's not the same thing.

I really think there's something more going on with the carnivore diet than what the dismissive 'experts' tend to allow for. I'm not saying it's a miracle, or even that it's appropriate for everyone (honestly, I don't think anyone is saying that, even the hardcore carnivore pundits say there's a spectrum what different people need), but it's clearly helping some people a lot, without causing broccoli deficiencies :lol:
 
You will often hear "The reason that they benefit is because they have poor gut health, and if you were to fix their gut, then they would not need to go on a carnivore diet".

I think the above might be the case for some people, but it seems that for many, the only way to heal their gut is to eat animal foods and ONLY animal foods. This flies in the face of conventional and alternative nutritional training, and there are not many professionals (other than Rob Wolff etc) who are willing to look at it with an open mind.

For me, no diet has given the results that this way of eating has. And I've tried quite a few throughout my 50 + years of life. Does that mean that it's going to be great for everyone? No, probably not. However, it so goes against traditional ideas of diet that most everyone who's not familiar with it reacts with concern. I'm happy Keyhole is on board with it given that he's knowledgeable in this field.
 
I noticed on myself that dry intermittent fasting (DIF) is much easier with my carnivore diet.
I just finish 1 full week of DIF, I didn't believed I'll be able to do it, ie not drinking anything at all after 15 PM. Will report on the fasting thread
 
Je lien du "Boeuf D'Herbes" en France, c'est là que j'achète 5 kg de steacks hachés par commande :
https://www.leboeufdherbe.fr/
J'ai commencé il y a trois jours, steacks tartare cru et/ou passé à la poêle et fromages de montagne, aucun problème à signalé...

I link "Beef Herbs" in France, that's where I buy 5 kg of chopped steaks per order:
I started three days ago, steaks tartar raw and/or pan-fried and mountain cheeses, no problem reported...
 
There's other sites where you can buy some grassfedmeat, eg:

(you can find other ones and local sources on google)

Personal update since my last post :

I stopped being totally carnivorous after a few months, I craved too much vegetables and herbs. Also, even with very good entrecotes I was tired eating beef every single day. So I started again eating organic avocados, zucchini, broccoli, onions, but in very little quantities. And I'm into teas so I drink a lot of chinese teas. I also found that when I eat only eggs, or a lot of eggs, I seem to have a reaction to it, I'm not sure why.

If I did not have budget restrictions, I was wondering what I would eat if I had a large choice of foods.
I think my diet would be like 50% seafood (lobster, crayfish, shrimp, crabs, fish roe, fish, octopus, crustaceans, shellfish, sashimi)
and 50% meat (all kinds of meat, especially game). And maybe a few vegetables from time to time. Charcuterie for cravings.

It would still be nearly carnivorous.
 
I made a video on why, if attempting a carnivore diet, it is probably best not to consume solely muscle meats. This especially applies for people who have higher choline requirements due to genetic polymorphisms on the PEMT gene(s).

 
I made a video on why, if attempting a carnivore diet, it is probably best not to consume solely muscle meats. This especially applies for people who have higher choline requirements due to genetic polymorphisms on the PEMT gene(s).

Couldn't one just use a choline supplement? I guess choline supplements are soy based though, like soy lecithin.
 
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