Darwin's Black Box - Michael J. Behe and Intelligent Design

So this post is primarily an experiment with something new for me which is to copy direct from Kindle. Thanks @Ant22 Although I think the following from Collingwood adds to the discussion at hand:

If law is not utility, a fortiori it is not convention, which is a lower ethical development than utility. And yet to identify law with convention is in a way more excusable than to identify it with utility. This is because the relation between play and convention is repeated in the relation between utility and law in both cases we have an abstract, individualistic point of view set over against a social or concrete point of view.

But as the individualism of play is an intuitive individualism while that of utility is an intellectual, so the concreteness of convention is an intuitive concreteness, that of law an intellectual concreteness. We obey conventions intuitively, unreflectively we obey laws reflectively, recognizing it, on thinking the matter over, as a duty whose neglect deserves punishment. In the same way we institute a convention intuitively, just because we choose that things shall be so done, but we institute a law reflectively, because we think that things ought to be so done. To defy a convention is merely to break with one’s company, to pick a quarrel with friends, to defy a law is to commit a crime.

Law in its whole extent includes the entire life of affairs, as distinct from business politics in all its legislative and administrative branches, large and small. This field, in virtue of its concreteness, is far out of the reach of abstract scientific thought, which revenges itself upon it by at once despising it for its illogicality and trying to reduce it to order by sheer mutilation. That real life is illogical every one admits; but that is the fault not of life but of logic, of abstract thinking. The scientist (think atheist/materialist, although certainly not all scientist are atheist) wants actual fact to behave as if it were a mere example of some abstract law; but it is never simply this, and the elements he has deliberately ignored upset all his calculations. He then calls the fact irrational, or contingent, meaning unintelligible to him because too solid and hard to be forced into his moulds, too heavy for his scales, too full of its own concrete logic to listen to his abstractions.


Even the life of convention resists his methods, precisely as religion resists reduction into terms of theology. The merest conventions, fashion in dress, etiquette and ceremonial, are lumped together by abstract thought as irrational, but to the eye of concrete historical thought they reveal themselves as informed by the most delightfully subtle intelligence, as inevitable as the plot of a drama and as little capable of scientific or abstract analysis differing from the rationality of law only in being implicit. Paris dressmakers could not tell you why they alter a certain fashion in a certain way this autumn, or if they did the reason would be a wrong one; but there is a reason, and it can be traced if the problem is approached from an historical point of view.

What is true of the proverbial caprices of fashion is a fortiori true of law and politics. The attempt of abstract thought to mutilate these historical facts appears theoretically in the attempt to construct a sociology, or science intended to reduce history to a pattern of abstract concepts, and practically in the attempt to oust the lawyer and the statesman from public life and replace them with the business man and the scientist. Thus the state, which in its historical reality is a fabric of law, is reduced to a business concern by an ‘economic interpretation of history’ which destroys the concreteness of legal fact and replaces it by the abstractions of utilitarian ethics; and we get socialism or the substitution of economics for justice, with its natural corollary, the destruction of that internal ‘king’s peace’ which the political spirit has guarded through centuries as the very flame of its domestic altar, and the declaration of a class war which is the explicit negation of the state.

Similarly the family, just because it is a concrete spiritual reality whose foundation is the act of spontaneous choice in which, moved by some spirit certainly not born in the counting-house or laboratory, one man and one woman greet one another as co-parents of the world’s future; just because it is the tree on which new souls grow in a manner unpredictable to scientific calculation; just because it is these things, the family is the object of attack by eugenists,1 who are quite sure that professors of science could mate young men and young women a great deal better than the poor ignorant things can do it for themselves, with the amateurish assistance of their friends and relations; and have the effrontery to bolster up their propaganda with facts concerning the failure of this or that marriage, arbitrarily selected to suit their purposes, as if a fanatic who wished to make gramophones compulsory by law should produce statistics showing that some people sing out of tune. For love and marriage and the procreation of children are, every time they happen, a voyage of discovery; and when scientists have discovered the logic which will infallibly produce true discoveries, it will be time enough for them to usurp that chosen province of intuition, the business of matchmaking.

The same fallacy recurs in militarism, or the seizure of the state by that science of war which the state has devised to serve its own ends; commercialism, or the overthrow of law by profit and the replacement of statesmen by business men; and other ailments of the body politic, whose common nature is to deny the very essence of the state, which is concrete freedom in the guise of justice or right, and its replacement by one form or another of expediency. They are alternative forms of that abstractness, that hatred of concrete historical fact, which is the fountain of all political corruption. Yet this corruption is no external enemy; it is inherent in the very fabric of the political life itself. The perfect concreteness of pure justice, of absolute right, is unattainable in the sphere of law, for law regarded as an objective reality over against the individual already shows the mark of that last abstraction which divides subject from object.

Society, as distinct from the individual, is already an abstraction, and as such cannot have that claim upon the individual which is possessed only by an absolutely concrete principle. Law is not the will of the individual himself; it is a command laid upon him from without, and therefore his obedience to it is always tainted with utilitarianism. Hence all those utilitarian degradations of law to which we have referred are in a sense inevitable. For law—and the same, we shall see, is true of history as a whole—is an incomplete realization of concrete thought: it is essentially a step, but an imperfect step, from abstract to concrete, from utility to responsibility. The very externality of law to the agent binds it down to the world of abstract or scientific thought, and necessitates a contradiction by which, on the one hand, the law itself claims to embody right, while on the other the individual conscience claims to defy the law in the name of right.

It is useless to debate the issue between the disputants; granted their common initial error, each is equally justified in his position. The same contradiction reappears in external relations, where the very fact that the state is law makes the inevitable conflict of state with state a conflict not of mere interest but of light against right, and therefore gives rise not to economic rivalry but to war.

We shall see that history is an unstable attitude which leads either back into science or forward into philosophy, according as the intellectual vigour of the historian is exhausted or stimulated by his attempt to get rid of the abstractions of science. So law is an unstable attitude, and either leads on to the position of absolute ethics, in which the law becomes simply the act of the individual’s own will and its abstract objectivity disappears, or else leads back to the position of abstract or utilitarian ethics and the politics of the scientist and the business man.

The later nineteenth century, as we shall see later on, appears to have been a time when an historical attitude, insecurely reached, was relapsing into the abstractness of a new scientific phase of thought, a retrograde movement in the history of the human mind, though one which, perhaps, served only to lay the foundation of a more secure advance. If this was so, it is no ground for surprise that socialism, eugenics, militarism, commercialism, and their like should have especially flourished during that period, as parasites upon the political life of the civilized world. Nor is it improbable that each one of them may prove in time to have justified its existence and contributed something of value to the advancement of human life.

Collingwood, R. G.. Speculum Mentis . Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.
 
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Above, genero wrote: "Second, the 'intellectual' atheist ( for arguments sake, although I'm really fairly unimpressed) who has really thought rather keenly about how a non-believer can still be moral without recognizing that that moral structure doesn't just spring out of thin air. It's inherent in the structure of the ordering principle within consciousness; man, nature, cosmos. Although probably it's unconsciously borrowed from their judeo christian upbringing. OSIT"
I often think about this last point. My great grand parent went to church every Sunday, my grand parent went to church frequently, especially during World War 2, but then later it gradually became less. My father learned the catechism by heart before he was 9 and my parents prayed with us, as I was a small child, although this habit had gone out of fashion among many. At school we sang some songs, but we did not have to learn anything by heart before we attended preparations to be confirmed. The children of my generations are still much more secularised and with the changing demographics and increased remoteness from people who were motivated by Christian ideals, materialism and atheism is becoming more expressed and entrenched. Perhaps one could say that the welfare state is partially motivated by the Christian concept that one should help the poor, be good to one's neighbour, look after one another and share with each other. In the welfare state, the accomplishment of such goals have become institutionalized, and the dogmas for perpetuating the atheist stand is being laid down in school policies, which in the field of natural science includes Darwin and his theory of evolution.
 
However, there is one aspect to religion though that adds another dimension which can’t be found in other stories. And that is the idea of the afterlife. This concept isn’t readily accepted by hardcore atheists yet many who were and have had a near death experience completely change their view and seemingly turn towards some kind of belief in something higher, or perhaps transcendental. This can take a religious tone but not necessarily always. Then there’s also degrees of ‘religiousity’ , spirituality an everything in between.

When we talk about 'spirituality' and whether or not people 'have' it, what exactly do we mean? At the basic level it seems to be an acceptance of the reality of an 'afterlife' and therefore that the material universe is not the only reality. In that respect, presenting the argument in terms of 'morality' is kind of talking around the main point, or 'morality' and 'spirituality' is used as a stand in. It's understandable that Peterson has to limit his discourse to religion and morality because if he and Harris went straight to what they are really talking about, i.e. whether or not there is more to existence than the physical, Peterson probably wouldn't fare too well. It's amazing that this kind of 'walking on eggshells' around the topic of non-material existence has to engaged in, and I suppose is a testament to just how pervasive and 'authoritative' the materialist doctrine has become in the modern era.

So the real question here is not 'can people live moral lives without religious or spiritual belief, but, can people live moral lives while believing that the material universe is all there is. The answer seems to be 'yes', which then raises the next question: 'what is the benefit to the individual or society of accepting the reality of non material existence as opposed to rejecting it?' I already mentioned Peterson's contention that in times of great suffering it can help to have something 'transdencent' onto which to project that suffering', but are there other broader benefits to the individual or society in holding a secular (or religious) belief in non material existence? You could say that if non material existence IS a reality, then it's obviously beneficial to accept that rather than reject it, as in Pascal's wager, but that's only potentially useful FOR the afterlife, while in a world that is largely structured around materialism, IS belief in non material existence beneficial?

If we introduce the possible reality of an 'information field' then one possible benefit may be that believing or not believing in non material existence may be analogous to believing or not believing in that information field, which may then give or deny us access to it, in the same way that people who don't believe certain truths in the material world sometimes do not have access to those truths.
 
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IS belief in non material existence beneficial?
I'd say that mainly depends on how close you manage to get to the truth. If you get close, then it should be beneficial because you have a decent idea of what's going on around you and you're, so to say, more 'in tune' with the universe. You're observing objective reality, or you're closer to it.

On the other hand, if you get it wrong and believe in some non material nonsense, then I can see more potential for harm than for any benefit. So belief in the metaphysical in and of itself may not tell us much about how useful it is. The contents of such belief could be just about anything.

Aside from the closeness to the truth, another issue will be what exactly it does with your mind, your attitude. It can make you more tolerant (Buddhism?), or it can make you more intolerant (any kind of fundamentalism), and same with other characteristics. It can make your life more harmonious if it gives you a certain kind of attitude.
 
I was thinking mainly about your previous comments about the length of a text and in general about how to at least reach (if not convince) a lot of people. I think the length in this case (and most cases really) is an impediment to many people actually reading it all. People have short attention spans and not a lot of time. On the other side, a shorter article doesn't allow for the an in-depth presentation of the argument, which then allows people to misunderstand and nitpick.

I suppose I was wondering if you had acquired a more nuanced understanding of just how problematic it is to 'reach' anyone let alone convince them, and whether or not we can do that depends a LOT on the nature of individual reader. It's the idea that we have more or less settled on a long time ago, that we put the information out there to the best of our ability in whatever format we think necessary, and then leave it up to the individual to decide. Free will and all that. Basically, I don't think there is a 'perfect' or even ideal way to structure information for public consumption that would theoretically maximize the reach and uptake, apart from due diligence in presenting an as accurate and articulate as possible piece of text.

Indeed. So many people on Facebook and Twitter and even on SOTT only read the headline and never get to the article so on of this length does present challenges. Maybe we ought to write articles with a bullet point synopsis at the start and then in the text of the article expand each of the bullet points. A lot of scientific research is presented in this manner - an abstract which summarises the work and then a detailed explanation.
 
Although I don't think it absolutely necessary to have it encapsulated in religious form to work, it still seems like the best way to communicate those ideals due to its reach. Sure, myths and fairy tales can work but probably not as effectively. But in essence it is the archetypical story where real meaning lies, and religion is a nice package for it although not immune to corruption.

I have got "fairy tales" books containing creation "myths" of Native American people (e.g. Hopi, Navaho, ...). These tales also tell about cataclysmic events these people had to suffer and survive. For me it is quite interesting that someone decided to include those "stories" in one of a series of "fairy tales of the world" book (German: "Maerchen der Welt").

What happens to a religion when it is pushed out of the way by another? It's gods/goddesses/heroes may end as witches, demons, devils or saints for the coming generations. I know that holy places of former pre-Christian ("pagan") religions ended with a chapel of the new religion on it and places with former dwellings can be found following stories about about little people ("dwarfs"), witches or other fairy tales / myths.

Some of the seemingly European fairy tales reach back thousands of years and there are variants of the same stories in other parts of the world (e.g. the other side of Eurasia) and we share these stories despite cultural / religious / language borders. These fairy tales are also archetypal stories and it seems some reach back to the dawn of human history/ human societies. Fairy tales also teach about good and bad and what happens when you decide to go a "wrong" or "right" way. They also teach that there is evil in the world. Some of them teach that material goods are not important but human values. There are also supernatural elements in some fairy tales. There is more about them than the "children tales" our society want to see in them IMO.

I think that (fairy) tales and also cultural/ moral standards of a society could be as important as religion.
 
It's amazing that this kind of 'walking on eggshells' around the topic of non-material existence has to engaged in, and I suppose is a testament to just how pervasive and 'authoritative' the materialist doctrine has become in the modern era.

I think this is the crux of the matter here. First off this whole survival of the fittest idea kind of gives a nod to bad behavior wherever too much power is concentrated, whether in the military industrial complex, monopoly corporations, international bankers, etc.

Second, I think it probably holds a lot of young people's minds back from really pursuing wherever the latest research in evolutionary biology can ultimately take us. It's an unnecessary hindrance without which greater progress would surely result.

Thirdly of course, for some people relativism becomes their 'truth' because it's all chemicals in the brain making stuff seem real. My truth is my truth and is at least as good as your truth. I'm a good person because because I don't eat Bambi or whatever. There's no reason to really strive to grow one's understanding when that's the case.

Besides it gets in my crawl a little bit. These 'authorities' aren't even right and they're going to tell the rest of us what to think and even ruin peoples career if they don't fall in line.

I think that's about enough of that!
 
So, I don't know for sure, but I think that perhaps it is important for all children to be instilled with some religion.
The approach I'd take is to tell children basic truths, such as people were created and reincarnation. I think raising children in the mainstream established religions is bad because those mainstream established religions teach false information.

What about other beliefs? Like, did you believe in Santa? Or maybe others did around you? Maybe a tooth fairy? Some other mythical creature? I think the point for children is not so much religious (i.e. christian/jewish/muslim) beliefs, as beliefs that utilize imagination and hint that there is a reality beyond the physical one.
The approach I'd take is to tell children that Santa, tooth fairy, and Easter bunny are fake and not real, but when asked about bigfoot confirm it is real. I want to ground them in truth and I'm sure they'll still have fun pretending about Santa and the tooth fairy.

I think that we are so starved for truth, that just giving the very little that we know are true, goes a long way in grounding children in reality versus the fake and the fantasy propagandized from the mainstream social institutions, eg science, education, media, medicine, health.
 
Finally, I have finished reading up the whole thread and still working my way through the books, finished DBB though. Thank you everyone for your inputs, luc and Mi for your brilliant analysis and articles. I hated biology but now I am finding myself watching more and more videos on atoms and cells. I am also trying to study ions and electricity flows as it could potentially help understand our nervous system better. Its fascinating to observe how our body's internal machinery works and complex systems are formed from a careful arrangement of simpler parts.
I am an engineer myself and can relate my own experiences from designing various systems. Two things are 100% clear about systems in general -
1. All systems lead to failure or reduced functionality (when used) unless tempered with or maintenance applied to steer them in the intended direction. Even then, there is a distinct end-date or shelf-life to all systems. The key here is that someone needs to watch over things pro-actively and introduce minor improvements as needed.
2. Everything starts with a solution design which leverages commonly available parts or simpler systems. Engineers are lost without a proper Solution Design. The takeaway here is that a Solution Design must exist defining the steps, components, resources and deliverables.

I had a thought recently that as per C's, before the fall, humans existed between 3rd and 4rd Density in bodies more advanced then current models. If the bodies are created by 4D STO beings then the regular improvements could be provided via knowledge (direct or indirect) which instructs the DNA to effect those changes within the body by synthesizing the necessary proteins. But, since we came under STS control, such knowledge was blocked and combined with Lizzie experiments have resulted in the type of regression observable today.

Onwards to learning more!!
 
Our inquiry has not only abolished the notion of a map of knowledge distinct from knowledge itself: it has also abolished the notion of an external world other than the mind. It has not, of course, abolished the distinction between subject and object. on the contrary, it has established our right to use that distinction by showing its necessity in the life of thought. It is no more abolished than are the distinctions between truth and error, good and evil, particular and universal these distinctions are only abolished by the coincidentia oppositorum which is the suicide of abstract thought, and conserved by the synthesis of opposites which is the life of concrete thought.

Just as we began by assuming a map of knowledge, so we began by assuming an external world, a world of which we could say with the realists that it really is what, errors apart, we think it to be: a world of which we could even say that it was what it was quite irrespective of any ignorance or error of our own about it. Our position at the start was wholly realistic, and there is a sense in which it is realistic to the end. But we did not—and this is where realists tend to go wrong—assume that ‘errors apart’ is a clause which need not be taken seriously. We did not assume that any one form of experience could be accepted as already, in its main lines, wholly free from error. Led by this principle, we found that the real world was implied, but not asserted, in art; asserted, but not thought out, in religion; thought out, but only subject to fictitious assumptions, in science; and therefore in all these we found an ostensible object—the work of art, God, the material universe—which was confessedly a figment and not the real object. The real object is the mind itself, as we now know.


Collingwood, R. G.. Speculum Mentis . Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.
 
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Indeed. So many people on Facebook and Twitter and even on SOTT only read the headline and never get to the article so on of this length does present challenges. Maybe we ought to write articles with a bullet point synopsis at the start and then in the text of the article expand each of the bullet points. A lot of scientific research is presented in this manner - an abstract which summarises the work and then a detailed explanation.

I think what you are getting at is sort of what Mercola does - 'article at a glance' sort of thing with bullet points. Going back to MI's article, particularly with certain subjects where scanning does not work, the reader has to make, has to want to make, a real effort and so you get what you put into it. With that article/subject (good on you MI) it took that length to suss out the arguments, to leave the reader with a well rounded view, OSIT (which in reality could be volumes) and then challenge the readers thinking. Headline readers need not apply, because its not going to work, especially if there is bias at play and with that subject there is tons of that.

Going back to religion, Laura said "it is useful to read Altemeyer's book "Amazing Conversions". Interesting as that is a book of Bob's that I've never read, I don't even recall it (so thanks for that), and was just reviewing his approach to religion in The Authoritarians as part of his studies. Some of those studies stuck in my mind - some of the religious minded; fervent even, who behind the scenes had no real sustaining morals or ethics, yet in their minds they brushed it aside because they are believers and god will understand and forgive. That is a strange package to have to navigate with in the afterlife, if that is part of their believes. In that book, there were many examples of different ways of thinking that Bob looked at, much from a fundamental side, and yet that side exists in most all religions in most all places.

Lastly, thanks peeps for bringing Collingwood up because something about his writings were very profound in the way he breathed life back into religion from a different direction, and for me it encompassed many parts; philosophy, art, science and they are part and parcel, giving depth and greater meaning to life, thus a view of life through this union. Perhaps that is why the more fundamental side, the materialist side too, struggle as this union is more barren and that is all they know, or at least what they allow into their field, so to speak. I don't know, just thinking out loud here.
 
Our inquiry has not only abolished the notion of a map of knowledge distinct from knowledge itself: it has also abolished the notion of an external world other than the mind. It has not, of course, abolished the distinction between subject and object. on the contrary, it has established our right to use that distinction by showing its necessity in the life of thought. It is no more abolished than are the distinctions between truth and error, good and evil, particular and universal these distinctions are only abolished by the coincidentia oppositorum which is the suicide of abstract thought, and conserved by the synthesis of opposites which is the life of concrete thought.

Just as we began by assuming a map of knowledge, so we began by assuming an external world, a world of which we could say with the realists that it really is what, errors apart, we think it to be: a world of which we could even say that it was what it was quite irrespective of any ignorance or error of our own about it. Our position at the start was wholly realistic, and there is a sense in which it is realistic to the end. But we did not—and this is where realists tend to go wrong—assume that ‘errors apart’ is a clause which need not be taken seriously. We did not assume that any one form of experience could be accepted as already, in its main lines, wholly free from error. Led by this principle, we found that the real world was implied, but not asserted, in art; asserted, but not thought out, in religion; thought out, but only subject to fictitious assumptions, in science; and therefore in all these we found an ostensible object—the work of art, God, the material universe—which was confessedly a figment and not the real object. The real object is the mind itself, as we now know.


Collingwood, R. G.. Speculum Mentis . Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.

The above more or less encapsulates what the Cs have told us about reality. I would say that this point is crucial:

"Our inquiry has not only abolished the notion of a map of knowledge distinct from knowledge itself: it has also abolished the notion of an external world other than the mind. It has not, of course, abolished the distinction between subject and object. on the contrary, it has established our right to use that distinction by showing its necessity in the life of thought. It is no more abolished than are the distinctions between truth and error, good and evil, particular and universal"

And this is what the Left/Post Modernist/ Nihilists are about: "these distinctions are only abolished by the coincidentia oppositorum which is the suicide of abstract thought."

Years ago Ark was working on some math/physics and told me about his results. I incorporated it into an article about Truth vs. Lies, (more or less), and the point was that when what a person believes (and acts on) is orthogonal to the Truth (as the Universe presents/experiences it), then it takes one further away from the boundary conditions of order and more or less into the center of chaos where one is subject to destruction and incorporation into the chaos.

On the other hand, the closer ones ideas/beliefs/actions are to the boundary conditions of "creation/order" - that is, the manifestations of the Universe/Reality, the smoother one's experiences will be.

I think I wrote about it in a Hallowe'en article back in 2003 or 2004.

In any event, what seemed evident to me was that it could actually be dangerous and destructive - individually and collectively - to believe lies.

And certainly, thinking that there is only the material universe is about the biggest lie of all.
 
Lastly, thanks peeps for bringing Collingwood up because something about his writings were very profound in the way he breathed life back into religion from a different direction, and for me it encompassed many parts; philosophy, art, science and they are part and parcel, giving depth and greater meaning to life, thus a view of life through this union.

Yes I know what you mean. My own view towards religion softened significantly after reading Collingwood. I realized in some ways it was a more honest approach to grasping the ultimate truth of existence than science is or may ever be. Collingwood made it clear that religion was never meant to be taken literally. Something that seemed so obvious once it was pointed out. How silly are the atheist who make a career of pointing out that obvious non sequitur. That's why to me the notion of a truly intelligent atheist is an oxymoron. (shhh, don't tell my roommate I said that)
 
Aside from the closeness to the truth, another issue will be what exactly it does with your mind, your attitude. It can make you more tolerant (Buddhism?), or it can make you more intolerant (any kind of fundamentalism), and same with other characteristics. It can make your life more harmonious if it gives you a certain kind of attitude.

Here, yet again, I think the devil is in the details. We can't know in advance or directly whether or not we are aligned with the truth, but if we accept that we learn and grow through adversity and challenge, and overcoming them, then alignment or not with the truth (as it relates to human evolution and ultimate purpose) would be determined by the extent, not to which we have an easy life, but the extent to which we can handle the challenges with increasing ease.
 
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