Darwin's Black Box - Michael J. Behe and Intelligent Design

Still reading Collingwood:

Idealism, in the sense in which it leads to theism, is the doctrine that the world is made, so to speak, of mind, and is regarded as the opposite of materialism or the doctrine that the world is made of matter. Both these theories begin by abstracting the object of knowledge from the subject, and both go on by inquiring into the nature of the object in this abstraction, regarded as a thing in itself. Both agree in committing the fundamental error of separating the metaphysical inquiry as to what the world is in itself from the psychological inquiry as to how we come to know it. Idealism in this sense leaves unreconciled the opposition between subject and object, and therefore sets the object outside the subject, but, feeling that this opposition must somehow be reconciled, it tries to bridge the gap by ascribing to the object some kind of consubstantiality with the subject, turning it into another mind, a society of minds (spiritual pluralism) or an infinite mind (theism). With anything which deserves the name of idealism in this sense, we have nothing to do except to reject it. We do not ask whether the world, considered in isolation from our mind, is material or mental, because we are engaged on a consistent attempt to get rid of these abstract separations and antitheses. We hold that the scientist’s world, so far as it exists, really is material, in the sense that, so far as he is a scientist, he believes in its reality as material, and that, so far as he succeeds in being a scientist, he is right so to believe. But we hold that this material world, regarded as material, is not fully intelligible, and that to describe it as the object of scientific thought is to fall into the error of supposing that scientific thought can maintain itself as a stable attitude towards a real object. The scientific attitude cannot be thus maintained when we try to grasp it, it dissolves in our grasp. Hence the theory that the world or any part of the world is material is not so much a false theory as a theory that nobody holds, though some people delude themselves into thinking that they hold it. The material world of science is thus not in the last resort a world of animate objects or minds or the like it is in the last resort an illusion, and its ‘mental’ character is just the fact that, like all illusions, it is a figment of the mind which tries to conceive it. In the same way, any object considered in abstraction from a mind which knows it is neither material nor mental, but an illusion, a false abstraction. Thus we certainly do not say that the objective world in itself is mental. If we are asked what it is apart from a mind that knows it, we shall answer that it is not ‘apart from’ such a mind; it is ‘with’ it in the sense of being known by it. If we are asked what it would be apart from such a mind, we shall answer that the very question imphes (implies?) the suggestio falsi that we can describe that which by definition is unknown. Our enemy is abstraction. We object to materialism only because it represents a claim to ultimate truth made on behalf of a concept which is flagrantly abstract. For the same reason we object to theism. Theism is a form of realism, of the abstract separation between the knower and the known. Philosophically, we object to it for this reason, because it fails to live up to the ideal of concrete thought, but we object to it on religious grounds as well. Religion cares nothing for philosophical theism, because religion is not interested in argument. The existence of its God does not require, and does not even admit, proof. For since religion does not define what it means by God, it is impossible to discover what we are to prove. We have to offer our own definition of the term, and whatever definition we offer will necessarily be rejected by religion, because the refusal to admit that God can be defined is vital to the religious consciousness, and to attempt such a definition is already to pass outside the sphere of religion and to falsify, from the religious point of view, our relation to God For the true God, the object of love and worship, we have set up a false God, the object of understanding, and what we prove is always this false God, never the true. Thus religion rejects its would-be friend, theism, as decisively as its would-be enemy, atheism. They fight over its head, and it goes calmly on its way ignoring them, knowing that the only God in whom it is interested is safe in his heaven and unaffected by the storms of controversy raging round his empty name. But theism, outcast from religion, is no less definitely an outcast from philosophy. This, in spite of repeated attempts to deny it, is notorious enough. Every one whose intellectual conscience is keen and untainted by sophistry, every one who has a fine sense of values in philosophical work knows instinctively that the importation of God into an argument breaks the rules of the game, upsets the table instead of working the moves out to a finish.

Collingwood, R. G.. Speculum Mentis . Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.
 
Yes, that's the point/reason.


No, we need to have higher standards than that. If it works, I can use it. If it doesn't, I can't. Which is why I'm trying to determine whether this case works 100% or not. If not, then I just won't talk about it.


It definitely is, so we need as much accuracy and verification of facts as possible. Making dumb mistakes would only backfire.


Absolutely true. Like I said, even if Behe made a mistake about this specifically, it changes nothing about the big picture. I'm just trying to get the facts straight about this particular issue to know whether it's usable in arguments or not. I'm kind of hoping I have missed something somewhere and someone can spot what it is.


Probably every organism has genes that are switched off. That's nothing new. But that has little if any relation to IC. If the gene is switched off, it's about the same as it not being there at all, regarding IC. What matters is the present function.

You're right that IC isn't necessary. When I read DBB, I felt like it was a crucial point (because I knew about little else then). But the more I read, the less important IC really seems in the scope of things, because the problems are so many. And a good point was made in that post by Jones, quoting Alan Gourley. It shows that when we talk about things like irreducible complexity, we're just arguing about minor details while being deep in the realm of the impossible. We shouldn't even be there. We shouldn't have to get down to this level of stupidity and argue about such details. The whole Darwinian paradigm is utter nonsense. It's possibly even worse than all the random New Age nonsense combined.
And furthermore, materialists / evolutionists do not "believe" that something needs or works through something "not visible" or measurable with the available means.

That is its great strength, if it is not seen, nor measured, it does not exist.

The Whale Hardware can have other levels not ... let's say measurable by current science. The C's already said that it is a special "animal".

Another example is when the C's were asked about the number of DNA caseloads that several people had in the session. At first there was confusion with the answer, because apparently the C's did not talk about something strictly physical.

In another thread we talked about several cases in which a person about to die and whose brain was completely damaged, suddenly began to talk and maintain lucid conversations, when with the physics of his brain would be impossible. Then, he returned to his "normal" state and died. There was "something" that surpassed the Hardware easily.

On the other hand, Laura's suggestion of writing to Behe may be a good idea. I do not think it's the most popular of the "schoolyard" and may want to "help".:-)
 
Q: (Joe) How many strands of DNA do you have?

(L) Who?

(Joe) You.

(L) Me personally? I dunno.

A: 32

Q: (Niall) No way!

(Pierre) Wow. That's a lot.

(Arielle) How many do I have?

A: 26

Q: (Joe) How many does Andromeda have?

(Pierre) Normally you only have 2, right?

A: 30

Q: (L) I think you're talking in strange terms. You can't apply "strands" to the scientific definition. If you want to ask questions about it, get all the info about it.

(Joe) Well, years ago they talked about you building your 4th, 5th, and 6th strands in 1994.

(L) Yes. And I'm tired.

A: "Strands" means one thing to you and something else in cosmo-spiritual terms.

Q: (Galatea) How many does Joe have?

A: 28

Q: (L) What is the sort of semi-normal for... I don't want to say that.

(Pierre) What's the average?

(L) The average person?

A: 17

Q: (Joe) So it's nothing to do with actual DNA strands in physical terms.

(L) Right. I want to say goodnight. If there is anything we haven't asked that we should have asked or anything we should know that we didn't ask about or don't have the sense to ask about, could you kinda tell us?

A: Goodbye.
 
The point is, goyacobol, that with this one step removed/nonfunctional, blood clotting still performs its function, even if slightly worse. This is actually exactly what the evolutionists would expect. One part removed, works slightly worse. If it was irreducibly complex, this shouldn't be possible. It shouldn't work at all. It doesn't really matter in what animal this version exists.

From the viewpoint of objective reality, I think, that if someone cuts your hand clean off at the wrist, its just "one part removed, works slightly worse." Therefore the following is wrong:
If it was irreducibly complex, this shouldn't be possible. It shouldn't work at all.
You can still function with one hand and two legs. If someone continues with the amputations, its just more parts removed. "Works slightly worse". But you can still function.

I think if you bend a TV antenna or remove a metal rod from the long row of rods, the reception gets "One part removed, works slightly worse."

I think, its because the mechanisms you are talking about are reception based, not part based.
 
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Irreducible complexity:
An astronaut or a Navy Seal designed & trained himself to perform perfectly on all missions with precise knowledge and precise use of all limbs. Losing one hand would make an astronaut or a Navy Seal completely ruined, non-hireable. From the point of view of an evolutionist an astronaut or a Navy Seal consciously evolved themselves in a very real way from their point of beginning: before their professional life even began, when they were merely dreaming about being an astronaut or a Navy Seal in a nascent state as teenagers. [EDIT: wanted to add to prev. post]
 
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I would write to Behe and ask him.
It didn't occur to me it would be easy to find his email address, but it was. So I did that. We'll see what happens. He probably gets lots of emails, including tons of hate mail from Darwinists.

One could argue that a lack of Factor XII makes whales less susceptible to thrombosis. It's a coagulation factor involved in later stages of clot formation rather than the initial stages were fine-tuned regulation is crucial. Could it be a Darwinian de-evolution for adaptation?
That makes sense to me, and it may very well be that that's what happened. Yet it wouldn't make much difference from the point of view of IC. So yeah, unless I discover something useful about this, I'll just focus on other things, which is fine. I'm just really curious what the truth is.

And I agree that it's all so incredibly complex that there's plenty we don't understand. It's almost as if the Darwinists thought, "Welp. We don't have a clue how things work. It's all so random!" and went with that as a theory.
 
I've checked several sources, and it looks to me like that one thing, factor XII, is really missing in these, even though the quote mentions a drawback - slower coagulation. It still works, though. Of course this proves nothing about evolution, but in a strict sense, unless I'm missing something, it proves that the blood clotting in humans is not IC. If that's the case, then there's no point mentioning blood clotting anymore, because it just won't be convincing. It doesn't change the overall situation, but I don't want to be like Dawkins and present half-baked arguments.
MI, I think that the blood clotting differences between human and whale do not necessarily imply that one is IC and the other is not. But let me explain.
Let’s assume I was a creator (fat chance🤪) engineering the blood clotting mechanism. I would look at the mechanism as a functional unit, connected to various other mechanisms of varying complexity. So I’d first design a basic, stand-alone blood clotter to satisfy the fundamental requirement: inducing clogging when the blood needs to be clogged, but then only when it needs to. Let’s say my contraption passes the first test under stable, stationary conditions and would already qualify as IC due eg to the many non-trivial intra-dependent factors in play.

Next step would be to make the mechanism responsive and adaptive (or resilient) to different environmental or epigenetic conditions. As an example, the mechanism should be immune to temperature variations in the short and long term. As a consequence, the already IC becomes more C.

Next step would be to make the mechanism portable across different species with a minimum of changes, perhaps parametrized. So I introduce some factor X in the DNA or elsewhere which influences the mechanism’s detailed behavior. That’s MORE C!

The above is of course speculative reasoning, but I hope it can prove my point: there are several dimensions along which IC can appear: 1) basic function; 2) resilience of the basic function when in different environmental changes; and 3) features which ease the reuse ("porting") of the mechanism across species. In a nutshell, the presence of 3) should not take away from the IC of 1) and 2), quite the contrary!
 
Ra (Law of One): Speak in this paragraph of the complexity "not visible" of our body.

Questioner: Would you explain that last comment about the configuration
in time/space?


Ra: I am Ra. Healing is done in the time/space portion of the
mind/body/spirit complex, is adopted by the form-making or etheric body,
and is then given to the space/time physical illusion for use in the activated
yellow mind/body/spirit complex. It is the adoption of the configuration
which you call health by the etheric body in time/space which is the key to
what you call health, not any event which occurs in space/time. In the
process you may see the transdimen-
sional aspect of what you call will, for it
is the will, the seeking, the desire of the entity which causes the indigo body
to use the novel configuration and to reform the body which exists in
space/time. This is done in an instant and may be said to operate without
regard to time. We may note that in the healing of very young children
there is often an apparent healing by the healer in which the young entity
has no part. This is never so, for the mind/body/spirit complex in
time/space is always capable of willing the distortions it chooses for
experience no matter what the apparent age, as you call it, of the entity.
 
The bigger problem, though, is what I've found about blood clotting. Aside from a few arguments that were flawed, I discovered one thing that seems legit, and if so, then it looks to me like Behe was wrong saying the clotting process is IC. The thing is that apparently whales are missing exactly one of the steps in the process.
...
I've checked several sources, and it looks to me like that one thing, factor XII, is really missing in these, even though the quote mentions a drawback - slower coagulation. It still works, though. Of course this proves nothing about evolution, but in a strict sense, unless I'm missing something, it proves that the blood clotting in humans is not IC. If that's the case, then there's no point mentioning blood clotting anymore, because it just won't be convincing. It doesn't change the overall situation, but I don't want to be like Dawkins and present half-baked arguments.
We must distinguish: the flagella is a structure, a piece, anchored on cell membrane. Coagulation is a process, a cascade of events. So, IC can have, in Behe's mind, a different sens.
Or: a lack of factor XII is not a flaw in whale, the coagulation process still works because whales live in a different milieu. For example the fact that coagulation is longer than in human is maybe counteracted by the presence of minerals in sea water that make coagulation possible in normal duration? It's just speculation, I don't know the truth on this subject. I just want to point that we can't really compare processes in sea creatures and humans. When it comes to a process (contrary to a structure), other ways can occur in order to come to the same result (coagulation in this case). OK, factor XII lacks, but what about the whole process, other molecules intervening?
I hope Behe will respond to your email.

Moreover, as wandering star said, there are other things than purely physical. If this is true for coagulation in whales, and other processes in whole living kingdom, then it's a huge argument againts materialistic science.

Another remark: factor XII 's gene exists in the whale's genome but it's off . It means it's in "junk" DNA. So, all genes (or a certain percentage? I don't know) are present in all living creatures. We all have the same (nearly) genes but not the same information about which one should be expressed or not. Junk DNA is an interesting domain to explore. If it's true that all genome is present in all creatures, then, just for that, materialist scientists can put the key under the carpet and close their laboratories' door forever.
 
Re: the clotting cascade, Casey Luskin wrote this on Evolution News back in 2008:


And Then Another Mirror
In his effort to refute Behe, Miller also discussed the fact that blood-clotting cascades in whales and dolphins lack factor XII (also called the Hageman factor), and the blood-clotting cascade in puffer fish lacks factors XI, XII, and XIIa. As Miller testified: “Whales and dolphins, in 1969, well before Pandas was published, were shown to lack factor 12. … The proposal is that we take away the three parts which are known as the contact phase system. Now, that includes factor 12, which we talked about a second ago, but also factor 11 and also the factor that catalyzes the conversion of 12 to the active form. It turns out these three parts are missing in a vertebrate known as the puffer fish.” (Miller, September 26 AM testimony, pgs. 126-128).

Miller concluded that since these cascades “are missing three parts of the system and their blood clots perfectly well,” that therefore the irreducible complexity of the entire land-dwelling vertebrate blood-clotting cascade is “refuted by the scientific evidence.” (pg. 129) The implication was that Behe’s argument for irreducible complexity of the blood-clotting cascade had been refuted as well as the more expansive argument in Pandas. But Miller did not refute Behe’s argument, because Miller only gave evidence that some vertebrates (like dolphins or jawed fish) lack certain components involved in the intrinsic pathway (factors XI, XII, and XIIA) found in land-dwelling vertebrates. What Miller failed to acknowledge is that land-dwelling vertebrates, jawed-fish, and water-dwelling mammals like dolphins and whales still have the extrinsic pathway intact, as well as everything after the point where the intrinsic and extrinsic pathways combine in land-dwelling vertebrates. In other words, dolphins and jawed fish still have the factors in the blood-clotting cascade that Behe considers irreducibly complex (i.e. those “after the fork”). They even have the factors on the blood-clotting cascade’s extrinsic pathway. The only factors they appear to be missing are the portions on the intrinsic pathway. Since Behe’s argument did not include any of those factors on the intrinsic pathway, and only dealt with factors shared by jawed fish (like the puffer fish), water-dwelling mammals, and land-dwelling vertebrates, Miller’s argument did not refute Behe’s argument at all.

But there is more.
 
All right, guys, I get the feeling that the article I'm working on is needed, because even some people here don't quite seem to understand the definition of IC, never mind the public out there. And some people are talking about things that, while not necessarily wrong, don't really have any relation to IC.

MI, I think that the blood clotting differences between human and whale do not necessarily imply that one is IC and the other is not.
That's technically true, but nobody suggested that. The way I presented the facts, they imply that human BC is not IC and say nothing about the IC of the whale version. One of the things that may need to be pointed out is that if a system is IC, it says nothing about the IC of its possible subsystems. Basically the only thing it says is that there can't be a system with one step less. There can still be a system with 2 or more steps missing, and this system may or may not be IC. Whether a subsystem is IC or not has no relation to the IC of the complete system. (And for evolution, all systems must be reducible by 1 step.)

So I introduce some factor X in the DNA or elsewhere which influences the mechanism’s detailed behavior. That’s MORE C!
Yes, there's more C, but by definition, your system is now NOT IC! You just added one step, thus making the new version reducible by that same step to the previous version!

2) resilience of the basic function when in different environmental changes
I have no idea from this whether it increases complexity or just fine-tunes the existing steps somehow (see next reply).

In a nutshell, the presence of 3) should not take away from the IC of 1) and 2), quite the contrary!
You're right. It doesn't take away from the IC of 1) and maybe 2), depending on what I said in the previous response. But point 3) is clearly not IC, as already explained. So in my question, human BC would be your 3) and whale BC would be 2). I hope it makes sense.


We must distinguish: the flagella is a structure, a piece, anchored on cell membrane. Coagulation is a process, a cascade of events. So, IC can have, in Behe's mind, a different sens.
I don't see why it would. Whether it's a structure or a process makes no difference for the definition of IC. The point is that it needs all its parts to work, or in other words, it wouldn't work if any one part was removed.

Or: a lack of factor XII is not a flaw in whale, the coagulation process still works because whales live in a different milieu. For example the fact that coagulation is longer than in human is maybe counteracted by the presence of minerals in sea water that make coagulation possible in normal duration? It's just speculation, I don't know the truth on this subject.
This is not about flaws, though. I mean, we know whales don't regularly bleed to death, so it clearly works fine for them. What Gaby said about thrombosis in this regard may well be relevant, and maybe this system is better in water. But again, this has no relation to IC.

I just want to point that we can't really compare processes in sea creatures and humans.
In many ways that can be true, but it should have no relevance for IC, as far as I can tell. IC is more of an abstract, mathematical, logical argument than a biological one.

It means it's in "junk" DNA.
There's no junk DNA. (At least not proven to be.) Only 1-2% of human DNA codes for proteins, and the rest was once considered 'junk DNA', but by now about 80% of the genome has been identified as having some function. It's reasonable to assume that the remaining 20% probably has a function too and will be deciphered in time.

So, all genes (or a certain percentage? I don't know) are present in all living creatures.
Nah, that's not how it works. Human DNA has about 3 billion nucleotides. Viruses and bacteria have a few thousand to a few million. But some species share many of the same genes (human/chimpanzee) and various ones may be turned off in each, so there are all kinds of similarities and overlaps. It's complicated, but generally more complex creatures have more genes.



land-dwelling vertebrates, jawed-fish, and water-dwelling mammals like dolphins and whales still have the extrinsic pathway intact
Thank you, AI! That's exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for. Now to figure out what the difference is...
The intrinsic pathway starts when there is a trauma in blood or when blood is exposed to a collagen. The extrinsic pathway starts when there is a vascular tissue trauma or trauma surrounding tissues.
After reading a bit about it, I get the general difference, but the details are a bit above my head, so I'll stay away from it anyway. It seems like Behe's argument regarding this point still stands, though I don't understand the details enough to be able to say for sure.

Thanks to everyone for their replies. At the very least, this has been educational. (No reply from Behe so far, btw.)
 
The argument against the Irreducible Complexity of the blood-clotting seems to be: 'See, there are some creatures that lack some of the components, and it still works, so it's not IC.' Ok, but their blood clotts more slowly (less efficiently) - and would their blood-clotting cascade work if if lacked any of the other elements to it? Could it work with say only 2, then 3, then 4 and so on, so that we could conceive that the system was built one step at a time via evolution? I don't think so. So it doesn't seem to me that the essence of Behe's argument is refuted - it is still IC, even if it allows for some variation without losing functionality (but losing efficiency).

You could also argue: 'If the blood-clotting system was designed, why do we find in nature some blood-clotting systems which are more efficient than others?' But then again, this is the assumption that 'organisms need to be perfect before we conclude they were designed', which probably comes from the other assumption that the designer has to be 'God', and therefore his designs should be perfect.

But strictly speaking, the argument for intelligent design says little about the nature, intent, circumstances or capabilities of the designer(s). Here's where people are lacking imagination. As we have stated on this thread repeatedly, the designers are most likely a variety of beings ranging from 4D upwards, and if we learn something from the different designs and 'upgrades' they came up with, it is that they are doing a lot of experimenting and trying things out - much like industrial designers do.
 
So it doesn't seem to me that the essence of Behe's argument is refuted - it is still IC, even if it allows for some variation without losing functionality (but losing efficiency).
If it still works (albeit worse) when losing one component, then that's exactly the criterion for refuting the IC of that particular system. But refuting IC (much less in only one specific instance) has nothing to do with proving evolution. Proving evolution means showing that every single step is possible by mutation and selection. For evolution to be true, there couldn't be any biological IC system anywhere ever. Even if it was proved that blood clotting isn't IC in humans, it still wouldn't prove evolution or disprove design of blood clotting. To do that, IC would have to be disproved not only for the whole system but also for each step.

Please note the difference between disproving IC in a specific case, disproving IC in general, disproving design, and proving evolution. Four different things! I feel like some people are mixing them up just because they want Behe to be right.
 
If it still works (albeit worse) when losing one component, then that's exactly the criterion for refuting the IC of that particular system. But refuting IC (much less in only one specific instance) has nothing to do with proving evolution. Proving evolution means showing that every single step is possible by mutation and selection. For evolution to be true, there couldn't be any biological IC system anywhere ever. Even if it was proved that blood clotting isn't IC in humans, it still wouldn't prove evolution or disprove design of blood clotting. To do that, IC would have to be disproved not only for the whole system but also for each step.

Please note the difference between disproving IC in a specific case, disproving IC in general, disproving design, and proving evolution. Four different things! I feel like some people are mixing them up just because they want Behe to be right.

Right, but what I'm saying is: If out of 20 components you remove one, and it still works, then certainly the system of 20 components is not irreducibly complex cause it could still be reduced: by 1 single step. But what about the other 19? Can they be reduced as well? I don't think they can, so in essence, the blood clotting is still irreducibly complex - except at the level of 19 components and not 20 as previously thought (or however many components/setps it actually has).

I don't find that argument against the IC of blood clotting very strong. I feel it's a bit like saying: 'If you remove the front rubber tire of the bicycle it will still work - less efficiently but you can still ride it with the metal wheel only. So that proves the bicycle wasn't designed as a whole and it will still work without any of its parts!'
 
If out of 20 components you remove one, and it still works, then certainly the system of 20 components is not irreducibly complex cause it could still be reduced: by 1 single step.
Correct...

But what about the other 19? Can they be reduced as well? I don't think they can, so in essence, the blood clotting is still irreducibly complex - except at the level of 19 components and not 20 as previously thought
Well, whether it's IC at the level of 19 or not has to be determined, and in reality, I'm pretty damn sure there's plenty of IC involved at many 'steps', so you're right. But from the point of view of arguing against Evolution, the small problem is that if the Darwinists showed that the 20 wasn't IC and you say "OK, I was wrong, but the 19 are IC!" then nobody's going to take you seriously anymore. Hence, even if not much has changed in reality, it's better to just pick a different argument. You have to look at it from the Darwinist point of view and consider what's going to look convincing enough for them, not for us.

I think the blood clotting is still a perfectly good argument, but the Darwies won't accept it as such. Better to move to something less controversial.
 

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