Relinquishing Ego/Self-Importance

Hi EFJH, what has happened to make you feel this way? I came across your post also feeling a little disillusioned as well.
 
@EFJH, I have few more comments to add after reading your responses.

You mentioned reading the Wave at the age of 10. I personally think that the targeted audience for Wave is someone who is above 16-17 at least and have had some life experiences. I am not advocating that anyone under 16 should be prevented from reading it but it does require a person to have fully developed mental faculties. A child at the age of 10 does not have a fully developed brain and quite open to manipulation and prejudice. It seems that since the age of 10, you have tried to live as if constantly involved in work and nothing else. This has led to some under-developed areas in your mental faculties such as e.g. how to ask simple questions and take feedback or how to effectively communicate your feelings whilst being considerate of others. These are soft-skills which are learned whilst living a normal life and has nothing to do with the Work. And this requires being out there, interacting with people, building friendships, getting into relationships, changing jobs, facing up to failures/mistakes etc.

As a starting point, I'd suggest that you re-read the Wave in its entirety without any prejudice as that would allow you to realise new learnings. In particular, please pay attention to the Multiple I's and Predator mind. Then pickup Casteneda's books, Unholy Hungers and Healing Developmental Trauma.

Reading through the kind of information being shared in this forum and recommended reading material, it can get very overwhelming and bit over our head. An egoitistic/predator mind will not accept this as a fact. Before I came across this Forum, around at the age of 20, my peers told me that I thought and acted very maturely for my age. And I took it as a cue that I am better than other older people out there and proceeded to make some terrible judgemental errors and paid dearly for some of my decisions, both emotionally and financially. It took a while to realise that due to the developmental process being hindered by childhood traumas, I was comparatively less mature at the age of 20 and completely ill-equipped to deal with the challenges that life were to throw at me. And I remained in such state of mind for a very long time until the effects of the General Law ( refer to Gurdjieff ) forced me to unlearn everything and change my thinking patterns.

If you read through your original post and then your numerous responses containing apologies and presumptions about being OP etc, you may notice that your are not quite in control of your mind ie multiple I's. One I is accusing the members on this forum and then the other I is apologising profusely to the point of self-immolation and another one is virtue signalling on behalf of both. You are also quick to offer counter-responses to all questions with unclear answers. This is your predator mind who is afraid that he has been found out and is now whispering in your ear constantly and forcing you to take a both aggressive (counter-responses) and defensive (self-immolation) stance whereas you simply need to lay down the arms and begin stalking your own predator. I am reminded of below exchange that took place between Gurdjieff and his father. Emphasis mine.
When Gurdjieff's father died Gurdjieff was only nine years old. The father was poor. He called Gurdjieff close to him and told him, "I have nothing to give you as your inheritance. I am poor, and my father was also poor, but he gave me one thing that made me the richest man in the world, although the outside poverty remained. I can only transfer the same to you.

"It is some advice. Perhaps you are too young and you may not be able to do it right now, but remember it. When you are able to act according to the advice, act according to it. The advice is simple. I will repeat it, and because I am dying, listen carefully and repeat in front of me what I have said so I can die satisfied that I have transferred the message that may have come down from father to son for centuries."

The message was simple. The father said, "If somebody insults you, irritates you, annoys you, just tell him, ?I have received your message, but I have promised my father that I will answer only after twenty-four hours. I know you are angry, I have understood it. I will come after twenty-four hours and answer you.' And the same with anything. Give a gap of twenty-four hours."

The nine-year-old boy repeated what the father said, and the father died, but because it was such a moment the message became engraved. As he repeated the message, the father said, "Good. My blessings will be with you, and now I can die peacefully." He closed his eyes and died. And Gurdjieff, even though he was nine, started practicing what was given to him. Somebody would insult him, and he would say, "I will come after twenty-four hours to answer you because that's what I have promised my dying father. Right now I cannot answer you."

Somebody might beat him, and he would say, "You can beat me right now, but I cannot answer. After twenty-four hours I will come and answer you, because I have promised my dying father." And later on he used to say to his disciples, "That simple message transformed me totally. The person was beating me but I was not going to react at that moment so there was no question except to watch.

There was nothing I had to do: now the person was beating me, I just had to be a spectator. For twenty-four hours there was nothing to do.

"And watching the man created a new kind of crystallization in me. After twenty-four hours I could see more clearly. At the moment when he was beating me it was impossible to see clearly. My eyes were full of anger. If I was going to answer at that moment I would have wrestled with the man, I would have hit the man, and everything would have been an unconscious reaction.

"But after twenty-four hours I could think about it more calmly, more quietly. Either he was right - I had done something wrong and I needed, deserved, to be beaten, to be insulted - or he was absolutely wrong. If he was right, there was nothing to say to him except to go and give him thanks.

If he was absolutely wrong... then there was no point at all in fighting with a man who is utterly stupid and goes on doing such wrong things. It is meaningless, it is wasting time. He does not deserve any answer."

So after twenty-four hours everything settled down and a clarity was there. And with that clarity and the watchfulness of the moment, Gurdjieff changed into one of the most unique beings of this age.
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Ignoring the Work, even a life lived normally would teach us that saying whatever comes into our mind first could land us in big trouble real fast. We are not really telling the truth but lying mechanically without even being aware of it.

Also to say something to the points being raised about hierarchy. An hierarchy contains rulers and subjects with rulers enacting enough defences to deter subjects from upstaging them. Our current civilisation is a good example of an hierarchical system and the one employed by STS factions extensively. If you consider this Forum or FOTCM, do you see any defenses being enacted? There is no one to upstage here.
There are well developed regions on this planet populated by members of current civilisation who'd make a person disappear at the sight of slightest non-conformity and freely expressed speech. I see nothing of that sort here.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Sid
 
EFJH, First: I think you need to be specific about your grievances. Remember GIGO. If you aren't specific with your input, you don't get satisfactory output.

Second: Along with that input about grievances, what you think is wrong, you need to list proposals of what you would like to see changed; be specific; tell us what we ought to be doing that would make you feel satisfied.
 
sid said:
@EFJH, I have few more comments to add after reading your responses.

You mentioned reading the Wave at the age of 10. I personally think that the targeted audience for Wave is someone who is above 16-17 at least and have had some life experiences. I am not advocating that anyone under 16 should be prevented from reading it but it does require a person to have fully developed mental faculties. A child at the age of 10 does not have a fully developed brain and quite open to manipulation and prejudice. It seems that since the age of 10, you have tried to live as if constantly involved in work and nothing else. This has led to some under-developed areas in your mental faculties such as e.g. how to ask simple questions and take feedback or how to effectively communicate your feelings whilst being considerate of others. These are soft-skills which are learned whilst living a normal life and has nothing to do with the Work. And this requires being out there, interacting with people, building friendships, getting into relationships, changing jobs, facing up to failures/mistakes etc.

As a starting point, I'd suggest that you re-read the Wave in its entirety without any prejudice as that would allow you to realise new learnings. In particular, please pay attention to the Multiple I's and Predator mind. Then pickup Casteneda's books, Unholy Hungers and Healing Developmental Trauma.

Reading through the kind of information being shared in this forum and recommended reading material, it can get very overwhelming and bit over our head. An egoitistic/predator mind will not accept this as a fact. Before I came across this Forum, around at the age of 20, my peers told me that I thought and acted very maturely for my age. And I took it as a cue that I am better than other older people out there and proceeded to make some terrible judgemental errors and paid dearly for some of my decisions, both emotionally and financially. It took a while to realise that due to the developmental process being hindered by childhood traumas, I was comparatively less mature at the age of 20 and completely ill-equipped to deal with the challenges that life were to throw at me. And I remained in such state of mind for a very long time until the effects of the General Law ( refer to Gurdjieff ) forced me to unlearn everything and change my thinking patterns.

If you read through your original post and then your numerous responses containing apologies and presumptions about being OP etc, you may notice that your are not quite in control of your mind ie multiple I's. One I is accusing the members on this forum and then the other I is apologising profusely to the point of self-immolation and another one is virtue signalling on behalf of both. You are also quick to offer counter-responses to all questions with unclear answers. This is your predator mind who is afraid that he has been found out and is now whispering in your ear constantly and forcing you to take a both aggressive (counter-responses) and defensive (self-immolation) stance whereas you simply need to lay down the arms and begin stalking your own predator. I am reminded of below exchange that took place between Gurdjieff and his father. Emphasis mine.

Ignoring the Work, even a life lived normally would teach us that saying whatever comes into our mind first could land us in big trouble real fast. We are not really telling the truth but lying mechanically without even being aware of it.

Also to say something to the points being raised about hierarchy. An hierarchy contains rulers and subjects with rulers enacting enough defences to deter subjects from upstaging them. Our current civilisation is a good example of an hierarchical system and the one employed by STS factions extensively. If you consider this Forum or FOTCM, do you see any defenses being enacted? There is no one to upstage here.
There are well developed regions on this planet populated by members of current civilisation who'd make a person disappear at the sight of slightest non-conformity and freely expressed speech. I see nothing of that sort here.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Sid
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In any case...

The emotions in almost all responses have been "directed" to the "attempt" to help.

A perfect example of external consideration and great learning.🤔
 
Hi EFJH, from my point of view you look to be young and militantly idealistic. Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se, or especially with your basic ideals as I think I understand them (being STO, sharing, community, fairness, etc.). However, because you're young and lack enough time observing or experiencing how things work in an actual environment created on those ideals, it's natural that you might have some incorrect theories about how to go about participating in or especially creating such a thing, no?

I think it's possible that because you have been a little different than many of your peers, precocious in certain areas of development, and you've probably experienced some hurts and disconnectedness because of this, you have missed some lessons that others having a different experience may have already gone through.

One thing that seems to be missing from your insights is a true sense of humility. Not like in the sense of feeling inferior, but realizing that others have something to offer and also their own lessons to learn much like yourself (you seem to WANT to feel equal but actually feel superior to others here). This is probably due to your precociousness and lack of true understanding (rather than philosophical) of a larger variety of relationships and emotions because you've set yourself apart intellectually for so long. Perhaps your ideas of wanting to live in a community of equality is a rebellion against this idea of being different?

One truth that I've observed stands the test of time is that when someone who is capable actually understands what others go through in life and that those of us who are in the same fleet, even if in different boats, need each other and can depend on each other, it is very humbling.

Another thing that stands out to me is that you have an underdeveloped sense of gratitude. My guess is that this is because you've been hurt and felt lonely and don't see much to be grateful for in a deep sense. So you're trying to make on your own 'something' to be grateful for (a perfect ideal of relating). The thing is, relating and gratitude require input from others. Of course, I could be wrong about your ingratitude, but not knowing much about you, I'm making a guess by what you've already said. If that's the case, a sense of ingratitude and pathological independence/dependence is a sure recipe for becoming a bitter and vengeful old person (not ideal!).

Since you are here and have followed some of the research and conclusions we've come to regarding diet, and our ideas regarding Work on the self/STO ideals/community, do you feel grateful to all of the people who have spent many years in the ring figuring out as much as they could in those areas and practicing/learning from/sharing it? Do you feel like we have anything of value to offer you that you can't do on your own at this point? Or, have you taken what suits you and want to run away with the blueprint for the wheel and make one that you like better?

It sounds to me like your major sticking point is what you perceive as inequality/hierarchy which it doesn't look like you understand very well. You seem to be applying your concepts of such (which have been informed by observing a tyrannical form in society) to all the people here who sacrifice their time and energy to figure out just how to go about practically achieving some of the ideals you have. Do you think that you know better than them all how to do it?
 
Laura said:
EFJH, First: I think you need to be specific about your grievances. Remember GIGO. If you aren't specific with your input, you don't get satisfactory output.

Second: Along with that input about grievances, what you think is wrong, you need to list proposals of what you would like to see changed; be specific; tell us what we ought to be doing that would make you feel satisfied.
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Thank you for your input Laura. I will be composing a reply to your post over the next few days.

Everyone has made excellent points. Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread.
 
EFJH said:
Lately it has been very difficult for me to interact with others that do not resonate with my frequency. It has also been very difficult to observe all of the contradictory behaviours from people that are attempting, "the work."
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Hey EFJH, just a couple more questions to think about. In your first sentences here, it seems like you're talking about 2 groups of people - correct me if I'm wrong. On the one hand there are those who do not resonate on your frequency. And then there are those who are attempting the work. Maybe the latter group is within the first group for you. Is that how you see it?

I'm curious, do you have people in your life who you consider on your frequency? I think we have ALL had experiences of difficulty dealing with people we see as resonating on different frequencies. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make the best of it. Maybe you can share some of your difficulties dealing with people, and others can share their own experiences and some advice. I think an important part of self-development is getting to the point where we can interact with others in a healthy way, even if we have to overcome some difficulty.

And as for those "attempting the work", I think it's probably a good time to remind yourself that you too are one of those people, and that you too will have those contradictions. That's not to say you shouldn't feel or share your observations about others - they may be correct, or they may need some correction. My point is just that the first concern of self-work is to work on one's own contradictions. Now THAT is difficult. But luckily we are here to help each other do just that.
 
Hi EFJH,

I have visited the Farm and the Chateau in France, and similar to you, had some thoughts about how things SHOULD be practiced there. I felt that the Work was not being practiced the way I thought it should and people were not living up to the strict, religious and zealous form of Work like what I read about in Gurdjieff schools and the like. I was instead showered with a lot of love, compassion, advice and really good food! Now back in my place I am sorely missing my friends there and I wish to be closer to them. I can understand that you feel a kind of hierarchy being imposed upon you, but try to look beyond that and see members as people who are here for a sole purpose and an aim which is to be of service to others, that's the simplest way to see it I think.

It's not right for you to be coming here, without participating much, and then making strange accusations which don't hold any water. I did the same so I know that it comes from a lack of insight into my own issues and stored up pain. It's not an easy realization to make for anyone because projecting it outward is what we've been doing all this while to make that internal darkness invisible to us. Owning up to our shadow is something all of us need to do to progress spiritually. There's your ground for the work right there and it is a place of untold potential waiting to be unlocked if only you plucked up the courage to do so.

I don't know if you've listened to any of Jordan Peterson videos but this was one that was done some time ago and is pertinent I think. It starts off at the Q&A on shadow integration:
Can you talk about your own experiences/methods used in integrating the shadow?

Yeah, well, I can actually. I think a tremendous amount of what you would regard as shadow integration which in the parlance of behavioral psychologists would be something like assertiveness training, right? It's training in how to stand up for yourself, and let's say your better self, which would be the self that you can use productively over a medium to long period of time that would be of use to you but also of use to people around you. So, it's a self that's bounded by the necessity of taking care of yourself but also simultaneously taking care of the people around you. I think the simplest way to start that work is to consult your resentment. You know, it's easy to become bitter about life, and to become angry because, of course, life is difficult and it's full of disappointments and people are also subject to betrayal on the part of themselves and on the part of people that hypothetically care for them and so it's easy to get bitter and get resentful, and resentful is a very useful emotion, even though I think it's one of the most damaging emotions if it's not dealt with properly, and so if you're resentful, it basically means either one of two things, it means you should either grow up, quit whining, and get on with your life, or it means that you're being subject to tyrannical forces of one form or another maybe emanating from you, maybe a consequence of the natural environment, maybe a consequence of society. You're being subject to tyrannical forces and you're not putting your own best interests forward. Like in that broader sense that I've described. I don't mean your selfish, narrow interests that only serve the purposes of instantaneous gratification, I mean, your own best interests in terms of developing your character over the span of your life, and if you're resentful, it either means you're immature and you should grow the hell up, and so you need to figure out how much of your resentment is just that, and maybe allied with the desire to find other things or people to blame. But the other possible option is that you have something to say or do, right? Because you're in a situation where your violating your own internal ethical standards and you're being required, pressured, let's say to say things you don't believe, or do things that you believe are wrong, and you need to determine, you need to start to strategize and plan how you can rectify that so you can say what you mean. Like, if you're negotiating with a marital partner, for example, and there are issues in your marriage that aren't making you happy, well, the first thing is you have to take note of that, to see that you are actually unhappy. The second is that you have to be willing to engage in a certain amount of conflict, because in order to sort out what's disturbing you, you're going to have to lay your concerns out on the table, and say, well look, this is bothering me. You don't have to say, well, I'm right, and you're wrong, and you have to fix this, you have to say, well, I've noticed that this pattern of interaction, or lack of interaction in our relationship is making me resentful and angry, and the danger of that is you're going to take it out on yourself and your partner. The danger is passive-aggressiveness, you know, you're not going to respond to your partner positively when they do something good if you're resentful about them, and you're not going to respond to yourself properly, so you have to lay it all out on the table, sort of in the spirit of ignorant humility. It's like, look, I'm frustrated I'm feeling this way about our relationship, here's what I think might be going wrong, maybe on my part, maybe on your part, and here's what I envision may be a possible solution. That's also really necessary if you're going to say what you have to say which is to manifest yourself properly in the world, is, you can't just complain about what's wrong, you have to think, well what would my minimal preconceptions of satisfaction be? You have to offer that to the person you're negotiating with, and so, then you learn to abide by the truth to the degree that you can do that, and no one does that perfectly, because it's very useful because you're not storing up a whole sequence of memories about how you were unfairly treated and abused and betrayed, instead you are trying to stay on top of it, and not your unhappiness and dissatisfaction when it manifests itself, and to accept that that's the case, and to analyze that to see if it's your problem, with regards to maturity, or it indicates that there's an injustice in the manner in which you and the world are interacting and then to work to set that right, even in small ways. So, it's a matter of characterological development, and that makes you stronger over time, and partly what you need in order to do that, and you have to really understand. This is why we built, in the Future Authoring program we built this section where you have to outline your most dismal future, right. What your future would be like if you let all your bad habits and characterological weaknesses get the upper hand. And the reason we did this is because, you can't straighten yourself out merely as a consequence of hope. Let's say you lay out a vision of the future and what you'd like your life to be like, and that makes you hopeful and it motivates you because it gives you something worthwhile and higher order to work for. Right, and that's useful, that's positive emotion working for you, because positive emotion is experienced in relationship to goals. But it's not as useful as also being chased by something that you're terrified by. And if you have a good sense of how you'd fall apart if you stayed weak, and just exactly what kind of hell that would be, then when you determine to do something, like to tell the truth, and to say what you think, and to not do things that you hate, then you're going to be pulled along by the purpose that your vision has provided for you, but also pushed along by your desire to avoid the worst forms of hell that you've already outlined for yourself, personally. And that can also help you be brave enough to stand out in a situation that would require conflict, because if you have something to say, and you have something to negotiate about with someone, then there's going to be a certain amount of conflictual dialogue that accompanies that, right? To lay out a set of problems and to describe the fact, forthrightly, that those problems characterize a relationship, and then to seek for solutions is quite stressful in the short term. And it's really easy to avoid, and so people avoid it all the time, and then they store up grievances across the span of the relationships, and eventually the grievances return in monstrous form and just eat everything up. That's where you get divorces, that's where you explode at your boss and then end up fired, or that's when you develop high blood pressure after 15 years because you can't stand all the accumulated monsters in your closet and you drink yourself to oblivion because you can't stand your life, that's all, you know, very counterproductive, but it's easy to avoid that unnecessary conflict on a moment to moment basis because it's very stressful to speak forthrightly about genuine conflict especially if you're dealing with important parts of your life. But otherwise you don't straighten them out and then you have to carry all that forward. So you have to be terrified of the consequences of not speaking your piece, and that can counterbalance the terror of trying to have a conversation. So, well, and also you have to look at the shadow idea, and you have to get in touch with the depths of your anger. You know, lots of people are resentful all sorts of things, they're resentful about, oh, women, and they're resentful about men, and they're resentful about the patriarchy and they're resentful about the left wing, and resentful about the right wing, and resentful about politicians, and they're resentful about the cataclysmic force of nature, and its ability to make people sick and suffer, and they're resentful about their own inadequacies and their bad parenting, and god, like the list is just bloody endless and that can make you very very angry. That's part of that resentment, and cynical and bitter, and dark, and full of fantasies about destruction and a desire to bring things down, and a wish that everyone else suffered and desire to shake your fist at god, and all of that is really dark. Well, Jung said, you know, the human shadow extends all the way down to hell, and he really meant that, you know, because all of the terrible things that people are really motivated to do, are associated with that shadow domain. Like, none of you are saints, in any likelihood you have a terrible capacity for destructiveness, and when you start to consult your resentment and see how angry you are, it can terrify you to see the depths of that anger, sometimes that will manifest itself in very destructive fantasies, you know. The nice person that's you, so it's quite frightening to open the door and see all that, and that also associates you with the entire dark shadow of mankind, the satanic element of the human character. But it opens the door to understanding as well, to understanding how people could do terrible things, because you could see yourself as one of the people who could do terrible things, that's really useful, you know, because, well then maybe you start being motivated to be the sort of person who wouldn't do terrible things, you know, if you could really come to terms with the fact that that's part and parcel of you. Also, in a perverse sense it's also a discovery of your own strength though, because if you have that desire for aggression, that desire for destruction, that ability to fantasize in that aggressive manner, it also means that you can incorporate some of that into your speech and into your actions so that you're a lot more immovable, right, and a lot more of a force to contend with. It can give you some respect for yourself when you realize that you're a force for destruction as well as creation and you're also a lot more likely to treat yourself with a bit more intelligent caution, to know that a part of you is a ticking bomb in some sense that could go off, and so you tread a bit more lightly around yourself, and maybe you encourage people to tread a bit more lightly around you, which isn't such a bad thing, and all the people I know have a clearly dangerous side and you don't want to have that activated any more than necessary. But it's also what makes them respectable and strong, especially if they have that under control. So, well that's a little bit of a dialogue about shadow integration, it's a very challenging undertaking, to pull in that dark side of your character, and that would be all the things that you've repressed, or failed to develop as a consequence of trying to be a harmless and, or lets say a harmless citizen who looks virtuous on the surface, that's the Jungian persona. And you need that, because everybody needs a mask that they wear in public, like a suit, you know, so that we can tolerate seeing each other on the street, we don't have to look right into our depths every time we interact. We need that persona but that has to be transcended, and the way to transcend that is to integrate the darker parts of the character, they're very useful, that aggression, that sexual demand, all of that is very difficult to socialize, that competitiveness, unbelievably useful in terms of force of character if you could manage it. [...]
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beetlemaniac said:
Hi EFJH,

I have visited the Farm and the Chateau in France, and similar to you, had some thoughts about how things SHOULD be practiced there. I felt that the Work was not being practiced the way I thought it should and people were not living up to the strict, religious and zealous form of Work like what I read about in Gurdjieff schools and the like. I was instead showered with a lot of love, compassion, advice and really good food! Now back in my place I am sorely missing my friends there and I wish to be closer to them. I can understand that you feel a kind of hierarchy being imposed upon you, but try to look beyond that and see members as people who are here for a sole purpose and an aim which is to be of service to others, that's the simplest way to see it I think.
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Thank you, beetlemaniac, for the testimonial.

The Cs pointed out long ago that our most important lessons at this level are "simple karmic understandings", and I think that comes down to learning about and fixing our "machines" so that we can effectively and truly network with one another. And Networking, at its most basic level, means LOVE. But even before people can learn to love, they have to get a lot of other stuff out of the way. It's useless to try to force the machine to run beyond its capabilities as in the ways of the Monk, Yogi and Fakir. All that will do is crystallize a person on the wrong foundation. And Gurdjieff, while he was very astute and had many of the right ideas, didn't ultimately succeed with his experiments and I think that is due to certain blind spots he had as well as influences of the times and places where he developed. He is still a giant, in my mind, but I have learned first hand the limitations of his methods.

Now, certainly, we could have people come here, compel them to dig ditches and fill them back in again, get up at the crack of dawn to pray or meditate, restrict their food intake, schedule them for all kinds of so-called esoteric practices throughout the day, and so forth. Perhaps that is what Beetlemaniac was expecting?

But rather than that, we want to actually help people in a way that enables them to connect with each other at multiple levels, working together, accepting each others foibles, while trying to fix what can be fixed inside ourselves with love and support, enjoying time spent together, so that the idea of really being a part of a large, global family becomes a REALITY. It seems to me that only in this way is the ground truly prepared for learning to love the self and others and the Universe at large; and it is that frequency that adjusts the antennae of our cells and enables us to be and to see.
 
EFJH said:
I did not have that in my mind when I created the original post. You are correct. I lack the knowledge regarding their struggle to make this forum successful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
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So you did not read The Wave where you can see the hard road that took Laura and how difficult it was. But you said you read it when very young.

About hierarchy, I believe in it. It is a form of respect when you are in front of someone who has more knowledge than you, and it can be, it should be for example your grand-mother or grand-father. Teachers, writers, historians. These hierarchy is necessary, that goes with respect. Seniors are above us, they know more than us, to give a simple example.Seniors not just in age but in knowledge. Hierarchy is important, when we talk about learning from others to learn about us and about life.
 
Laura said:
Now, certainly, we could have people come here, compel them to dig ditches and fill them back in again, get up at the crack of dawn to pray or meditate, restrict their food intake, schedule them for all kinds of so-called esoteric practices throughout the day, and so forth. Perhaps that is what Beetlemaniac was expecting?

But rather than that, we want to actually help people in a way that enables them to connect with each other at multiple levels, working together, accepting each others foibles, while trying to fix what can be fixed inside ourselves with love and support, enjoying time spent together, so that the idea of really being a part of a large, global family becomes a REALITY. It seems to me that only in this way is the ground truly prepared for learning to love the self and others and the Universe at large; and it is that frequency that adjusts the antennae of our cells and enables us to be and to see.
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Too true. The extremely important qualities that have been stripped away from the average human being are not things like the ability to dig a ditch or restrict their food (people can still easily do such things themselves), but the ability to truly understand themselves and others, as a result gain some control over themselves and their programming, and through that create real, life-sustaining and life affirming connections to others. It's not an easy thing to do, so I'm not surprised that people see digging ditches as preferable.
 
Laura said:
But rather than that, we want to actually help people in a way that enables them to connect with each other at multiple levels, working together, accepting each others foibles, while trying to fix what can be fixed inside ourselves with love and support, enjoying time spent together, so that the idea of really being a part of a large, global family becomes a REALITY. It seems to me that only in this way is the ground truly prepared for learning to love the self and others and the Universe at large; and it is that frequency that adjusts the antennae of our cells and enables us to be and to see.
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That is so true. And for those who can go there once in a while or can not go at all, Laura and her team still offers us the possibility to connect together in working in many projects like translation, transcription, the Sott websites ( available in many languages), etc. And whatever way we choose to connect, they are always there to help us.
 
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