Laura's Book "From Paul to Mark" is out!!!! ... And in French too

I wrote above: "However, this is a topic for a different thread".

But of course I didn't mean anything bad, I just think, it would take us beyond the main topic of this thread.
 
I was intrigued by footnote of yours related to the same above, so I decided to pull on a few threads there related to the Book of Enoch and the Zend Avesta, but put it in this thread so as not to distract from the main thrust of this thread on Paul.

I'm almost 200 pages into the book, and it's been a very educational read, not only in its subject matter but as a tour de force in the vein of a truly scientific historical method. This is refreshing in a field that has systematically been starved of it for centuries, or perhaps since ever. I've felt the same response to Collingwood at times as well, where you get introduced to questions you don't even think to ask, or angles you haven't considered looking at before. Given the essence of what we know about the importance of history as a catalogue of all past thought and agency, if one really reads this slowly, taking on and digesting the critical thinking and perspectives, it can be a wonderful tool for training the mind in developing discernment, as well as the critical attitude necessary for seeing the unseen and the unsaid. This book is a tremendous gift on so many levels Laura, and I appreciate you for writing it.

Keep in mind that the best way to explore such works is with the help of qualified scholars in the field. They may not come to the best conclusions about things because they don't have certain knowledge that you have, thanks to Cs, but still, their expertise is invaluable. Also, scholars tend to stick to their fields; you don't have to, so you can compare and contrast.

It is helpful to read a good history of the Ancient Near East for a broad overview of things so as to be able to situate them in context. I've got 21 pages on amazon that list the books I've purchased on the topic of anything "ancient" which I used as a search term. Each page lists 12 books so that is 252 books that come up with "ancient" in the title. Yes, I read them all PLUS many other books on the topics that did not include "ancient" in the title.

That being said, let me make a short list of recommended books:

A History of the Ancient Near East, ca. 3000-323 BC, 3rd Edition by Marc Van De Mieroop.

Philosophy before the Greeks – The Pursuit of Truth in Ancient Babylonia by Marc Van De Mieroop.

The Ancient Near East: History, Society and Economy 1st Edition by Mario Liverani

Myth and Politics in Ancient Near Eastern Historiography by Mario Liverani

Ancient Worlds: An Epic History of East and West by Michael Scott

Authority and Tradition in Ancient Historiography by John Marincola

Essays in Ancient and Modern Historiography by Arnaldo Momigliano

History and the Gods (An Essay on the Idea of Historical Events as Divine Manifestations in the Ancient Near East and Israel) by Bertil Albrektson

Religion in Ancient Mesopotamia 1st Edition by Jean Bottéro

The History of Ancient Palestine from the Palaeolithic Period to Alexander's Conquest by G. W. Ahlstrom

In Search of History: Historiography in the Ancient World and the Origins of Biblical History 1st Edition by John Van Seters

Ancient Israel: A New History of Israel Broché by Niels Peter Lemche

The History of Ancient Israel: A Guide for the Perplexed (Guides for the Perplexed) by Philip R. Davies

1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric H. Cline

The above should give you a really good overview of the terrain and the problems that other, more narrowly focused studies have to deal with.

There are some excellent studies on Zoroastrianism and a LOT of material is coming out about the Books of Enoch. I'm almost afraid to check my amazon account for lists of those books. Geeze, it was so fascinating I couldn't stop reading.

Anyway, it is one thing to read an ancient text, and it is quite another to read such a text AFTER you have read the history and numerous studies that break the text down and examine it. For example, apocalyptic literature was generally politically motivated and there might be references to then current political or social events that you would miss completely if you had not been guided by an expert who DID know those things. You might then think there was something secret and esoteric about a rather commonplace bit of invective against a harsh ruler! And believe me, a lot of that sort of thing goes on; a LOT of the "alternative" writers who purport to reveal great mysteries of the ancients make exactly that type of error again and again.

Just a few quick ones on Zoroastrianism:

A History of Zoroastrianism in two volumes by Mary Boyce

Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism by Mary Boyce

Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices by Mary Boyce

The Dawn And Twilight Of Zoroastrianism Paperback by R. C. Zaehner

The Daēva Cult in the Gāthās: An Ideological Archaeology of Zoroastrianism by Amir Ahmadi

Indo-European Societies and Zoroastrianism: Unravelling Convergent Trends in Historical Distortion by Iliya Englin

The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianism: Anna Tessmann, Michael Stausberg, Yuhan Sohrab-Dinshaw, eds.

After reading the history of the Ancient Near East, "Philosophy Before the Greeks", and the details about Zoroastrianism, you may find that then, apocalypticism makes sense as does the origins of the Hebrew OT during and after the Persian period. There were Egyptian influences as well, but then, that widens the reading requirements.

It's all a huge, complex puzzle, but if you do manage to collect together as many puzzle pieces as you can find, it is possible to assemble a good portion of it and then imagine what fills in the blank spaces based on the adjacent pieces and outline.
 
However, I think Swedenborg had a lot of influence on Blake's early work, but later Blake seems to reject him.

On the other hand, the love of paradoxes brings extraordinary grace to English literature. I think Swedenborg's philosophy may have played a part in this as far as Blake is concerned. However, this is a topic for a different thread.

Well, I tend to be conservative with my time and energy. I realize Blake was influenced by Swedenborg, but Blake had more going on than just that, as you say. So again, it's not really interesting enough to me to pursue it at present.

Paradoxes always indicate that there is a problem to be solved - that there is an error from one side or another or from the premise. When I find them, I just tend to block off the assumptions and try to get a beginner's mind and look at the thing afresh.
 
Well, I tend to be conservative with my time and energy. I realize Blake was influenced by Swedenborg, but Blake had more going on than just that, as you say. So again, it's not really interesting enough to me to pursue it at present.

Paradoxes always indicate that there is a problem to be solved - that there is an error from one side or another or from the premise. When I find them, I just tend to block off the assumptions and try to get a beginner's mind and look at the thing afresh.
Thank you very much for your answer, and I have looked at the literature you recommend. I know Mary Boyce well, but I don't know the other items, thank you!

"Paradoxes always indicate that there is a problem to be solved - that there is an error from one side or another or from the premise."

Hence, I think that time and energy will probably be useful to you. It will also be useful to me. I'm working on it.
 
Or maybe I can recommend some items, namely:

P.R. House, “The Rise and Current Status of Literary Criticism of the Old Testament”, w: P.R. House (red.), Beyond Form Criticism: Essays in Old Testament Literary Criticism, Winona Lake 1992,

R. Alter, The Art of Biblical Narrative. Basic Books [1981] 2011,

T.W. Mann, The Book of the Torah: The Narrative Integrity of the Pentateuch, Louisville, 1988.
 
Or maybe I can recommend some items, namely:

P.R. House, “The Rise and Current Status of Literary Criticism of the Old Testament”, w: P.R. House (red.), Beyond Form Criticism: Essays in Old Testament Literary Criticism, Winona Lake 1992,

R. Alter, The Art of Biblical Narrative. Basic Books [1981] 2011,

T.W. Mann, The Book of the Torah: The Narrative Integrity of the Pentateuch, Louisville, 1988.

Not interested. They are all "true believers" or maximalists, as I call them. They believe in what they are studying, therefore, one may safely assume they are filtering reality. I've read enough tomes by similar authors to know what to expect. It takes time and energy to figure out their games and I've done enough of that already.

Here is the review I wrote for Russell Gmirkin's "Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus" that will give you an idea of where I was in 2015 after reading a LOT of books of the ilk you suggest.

Old Testament, is probably the most successful literary creation of all time; and yet, we do not know its author. This was, it seems, by design, and as a result, for about two millennia, people have claimed that it was "written by God" and every word in it is truth, or Truth.

But in recent years, there has been a growing body of research that demonstrates that this is not exactly the case: that the OT is based on the other literature that was available at the time it was written.

Years ago while researching the Hittites and their possible relationship to the patriarch, Abraham, I was reading Trevor Bryce's book "Daily Life of the Hittites" and was slightly electrified with his short discussion about the possible/probable relationship between the Epic of Gilgamesh and Homer's Odyssey. That’s a can of worms since some of the correspondences are apparently very close to word-for-word. Who influenced who and when and where?

Time went by and I went through all the works of John Van Seters in his search for the History of Israel and Abraham. In his book, "In Search of History", he discussed the relationship of the Israelite history to the historical texts of the ancient Near East and Greece, noting that, while we have many texts from the Near East with historical content, only the Greek histories parallel the biblical histories in their distance from the past that is being described. He noted at the time that there were numerous agreements between the substance and style of some of the OT books and works of Greek historians, particularly Herodotus. However, he didn't go into this in detail and I recall reading it and nodding vigorously because I had noticed the same things.

In 2002, Jan-Wim Wesselius wrote "The Origin of the History of Israel" wherein he argues convincingly that the structure of the OT from Genesis to 2 Kings is modeled on the Histories of Herodotus. He points out the striking parallels between the key figure of Joseph - who is the one who got the Israelites into Egypt in the first place - and King Cyrus, the founder of the Persian Empire. Some of these parallels are so precise that there is no wiggle room for evading the obvious borrowing. Further, there is amazing duplication of the genealogy of the patriarchs and the Persian-Median royal house, the most striking of which exist between the figures of Moses and King Xerxes. The main subjects of the stories about the two of them are that a leader is summoned by the divinity to bring an enormous army into another continent across a body of water as if on dry land in order to conquer somebody else's land. In both cases, the conquest ends badly, with a horrific siege, though in the case of Xerxes, it was within his lifetime, and in the case of the Israelites, it was when the Babylonians came much, much later.

Following Wesselius, in 2006, along came Russell Gmirkin's "Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus", the book I’m reviewing here at long last.

Gmirkin argues the theory that the Hebrew Pentateuch was composed in its entirety about 273-272 BCE by Jewish scholars at Alexandria that later traditions credited with the Septuagint translation of the Pentateuch into Greek. The primary evidence is the obvious literary dependence of Gen. 1-11 on Berossus' Babyloniaca (278 BCE) and the dependence of the Exodus story on Manetho's Aegyptiaca (c. 285-280 BCE), and the geo-political data contained in the Table of Nations. These three pieces of evidence are almost slam-dunk evidence of dependence.

Gmirkin theorizes that a number of indications within the text pointed to a provenance of Alexandria, Egypt for at least some parts of the Pentateuch. He points out that the many texts that would have to have been consulted to produce such a history probably were available only there. I don't see Wesselius in Gmirkin's bibliography and that is a bit surprising because it seems to me that their ideas dovetail nicely except that Wesselius proposes an earlier date for the composition. I think that with the evidence presented by Gmirkin, that date is going to have to be revised, but I don’t think Wesselius will mind!

What is clear is that the OT author not only used Herodotus for his structure, he was in dialogue with Berossus and Manetho, ESPECIALLY Manetho and his derogatory ethnography of the Jews. Obviously it was seen that a compelling, apologetic history needed to be written that out-did every other apologetic history that was being produced during those times and that is probably what inspired the author to use the techniques he did: borrowing from the many texts available in Alexandria at the time.

That the Pentateuch was composed at almost the same date as the alleged Septuagint translation, provides compelling evidence for some level of communication and collaboration between the authors of the Pentateuch and the Septuagint scholars at Alexandria. The late date of the Pentateuch, as demonstrated by literary dependence on Berossus and Manetho, has two important consequences: the definitive overthrow of the chronological framework of the Documentary Hypothesis, and a late, 3rd century BCE date for major portions of the Hebrew Bible which show literary dependence on the Pentateuch.

My own thoughts about this startling (and compelling) argument are that much of the OT was composed in Greek and only later translated into Hebrew and the Hebrew texts were corrected and fiddled with a bit which is why they no longer exactly match up with the LXX, NOT the other way around. It seems to me that the origins of the Masoretic text lie in a re-writing and Semiticizing of the “translated” Septuagint.”

Since Gmirkin wrote this book, more and more evidence has been adduced that supports and augments his original work. In 2011 there was Bruce Louden’s "Homer's Odyssey and the Near East" where he shows that Genesis is in dialogue with the Odyssey. Genesis features the same three types of myth that comprise the majority of the Odyssey: theoxeny, romance (Joseph in Egypt), and Argonautic myth (Jacob winning Rachel from Laban). The Odyssey also offers intriguing parallels to the Book of Jonah, and Odysseus' treatment by the suitors offers close parallels to the Gospels' depiction of Christ in Jerusalem. (It turns out that the works of Homer are well-employed in the composition of the Gospels, too, as explicated by Dennis R. MacDonald, but that's off-topic here.)

Further support for Gmirkin’s seminal work comes from Philippe Wajdenbaum whose book “Argonauts of the Desert” claims to be a "revolutionary new commentary on the Bible and its origins, arguing that most biblical stories and laws were inspired by Greek literature." Well, as I have demonstrated in the brief review of the main books on the topic that I have read above, it's not so revolutionary, but it's the logical follow-up. Gmirkin wrote a lot of stuff that hasn’t been refuted effectively as far as I can see, and he did it at a time when very few had the courage to say these things out loud – heck, even the great Van Seters only suggested it sideways!

Obviously, the bottom line of all this research and these unsettling conclusions is that the Hebrew Bible is certainly not a history of Israel and, as the archaeological record reveals, there probably was no early kingdom of Israel as described in the Bible yet it has been believed in for millennia as fervently as people believe that the sun will rise. The reactions to the above types of analyses are usually outright rejection even in the face of accumulating mountains of evidence that is considered conclusive in any field of endeavor OTHER than Biblical Criticism. It is asked: if all this is true, how could generation after generation of scholars not have seen it?

Most Biblical Criticism today is still conducted by "true believers" in the sanctity and primacy of the text and it is in the form of the perpetuation of this dogma rather than true study and research. The Bart Ehrman "Search for the Historical Jesus of Nazareth" debacle of recent times is a case in point. He falls back on his title that gives him (and only others like him) the legitimacy to speak authoritatively about the Bible. Real scientific critics are not allowed to enter the biblical field. If they do, they are shouted down or ignored away by the Churches that grant the authority.

Gmirkin really let the Genie out of the bottle with this one and there’s no putting it back. Whether the true believers like it or not, biblical studies are moving into a new era.
 
"Not interested. They are all "true believers" or maximalists, as I call them. They believe in what they are studying, therefore, one may safely assume they are filtering reality. I've read enough tomes by similar authors to know what to expect. It takes time and energy to figure out their games and I've done enough of that already."

Thank you for your comments and your review. Yes, this is unfortunately true, although you can find something useful in these books sometimes. This is how I looked at it when I was recommended these books by an Old Testament lecturer. These and many more.

What do you think about authors such as Uta Ranke-Heinemann or Thomas Jonathan Jackson Altizer?
 
What do you think about authors such as Uta Ranke-Heinemann or Thomas Jonathan Jackson Altizer?

Uta began to see some light, but there are many others who have gone further than she did. See Thomas Brodie, for example.

Altizer was another who was just getting glimpses and the little bit of light he saw was sufficient to blind him.

Keep in mind that I've been reading biblical studies since 1985 and yes, I began as a believer and read all the believer stuff. With the way I read, I've combed through a lot of books in 35 years. At this point, there are a lot of books that I would not recommend to anyone interested in the topic. Why waste time? There are plenty of open questions that need research so there is no reason to try to re-invent the wheel or a better mousetrap.

For example, the problem of Pilate. This is something that still bugs me a lot.

Pilate is integral to the passion narrative of Mark which evidence suggests was written not long after 71 AD, so it is the chronologically FIRST connection of a "Jesus" to Pilate.

Based on the works of Josephus, it seems to be fairly certain that Pilate was in Judea earlier than the Christian timeline allows and that he was sent away by the friends of Germanicus around 19 AD. We read about him in Wars (c. 75) and Antiquities. (c. 94)

Pilate is mentioned in relation to a "Christus" in Tacitus Annals (c. 116)

Since they both copied 90% or more of Mark, Pilate is also in Matthew (c. 90?), Luke (c. 130?) and John (?).

But there is nothing about Pilate in early Christian writings until we come to Ignatius who is problematical in many ways. He is insistent on the family of Jesus, mother Mary, etc. But why would he have to be so if the Matthean birth narrative was known? And why was he so vague about Pilate's role in the death of Jesus if he knew ANY of the gospels???

Even if Matthew, Luke, John, are later than we imagine, there still was the story of Pilate in Mark. Did Ignatius not know even Mark?

And what about Ignatius' weird take on the life of Jesus, the star imagery, etc?

Are some elements in Ignatius earlier than we might suspect with later, heavy editing, by Polycarp?

These are things that need explaining. And there are quite a number of others I have mentioned in my text.
 
Uta began to see some light, but there are many others who have gone further than she did. See Thomas Brodie, for example.

Altizer was another who was just getting glimpses and the little bit of light he saw was sufficient to blind him.

Keep in mind that I've been reading biblical studies since 1985 and yes, I began as a believer and read all the believer stuff. With the way I read, I've combed through a lot of books in 35 years. At this point, there are a lot of books that I would not recommend to anyone interested in the topic. Why waste time? There are plenty of open questions that need research so there is no reason to try to re-invent the wheel or a better mousetrap.

For example, the problem of Pilate. This is something that still bugs me a lot.

Pilate is integral to the passion narrative of Mark which evidence suggests was written not long after 71 AD, so it is the chronologically FIRST connection of a "Jesus" to Pilate.

Based on the works of Josephus, it seems to be fairly certain that Pilate was in Judea earlier than the Christian timeline allows and that he was sent away by the friends of Germanicus around 19 AD. We read about him in Wars (c. 75) and Antiquities. (c. 94)

Pilate is mentioned in relation to a "Christus" in Tacitus Annals (c. 116)

Since they both copied 90% or more of Mark, Pilate is also in Matthew (c. 90?), Luke (c. 130?) and John (?).

But there is nothing about Pilate in early Christian writings until we come to Ignatius who is problematical in many ways. He is insistent on the family of Jesus, mother Mary, etc. But why would he have to be so if the Matthean birth narrative was known? And why was he so vague about Pilate's role in the death of Jesus if he knew ANY of the gospels???

Even if Matthew, Luke, John, are later than we imagine, there still was the story of Pilate in Mark. Did Ignatius not know even Mark?

And what about Ignatius' weird take on the life of Jesus, the star imagery, etc?

Are some elements in Ignatius earlier than we might suspect with later, heavy editing, by Polycarp?

These are things that need explaining. And there are quite a number of others I have mentioned in my text.
"Keep in mind that I've been reading biblical studies since 1985 and yes, I began as a believer and read all the believer stuff. With the way I read, I've combed through a lot of books in 35 years. At this point, there are a lot of books that I would not recommend to anyone interested in the topic. Why waste time? There are plenty of open questions that need research so there is no reason to try to re-invent the wheel or a better mousetrap."

My situation is that I have never been a believer. I wouldn't call myself an atheist (atheism can be considered as a fairly broad concept), it's a more complex issue. The soonest I could describe myself as a doubter, although that is not a fully accurate term either. However, I do not consider the Bible to be Holy Scripture and I never did.

Nevertheless, I also became interested in this topic at some point in my life, because I am aware of how valuable the Bible is in terms of anthropology, history and culture. The phenomenon of believing theologians has long puzzled me. Hence, in my case it was in a way that I wanted to understand why a person who has theological knowledge believes. From what you write at the beginning, you reached for apologetic literature. I do not know if I get it right, but I see it a bit as an attempt to understand faith according to the sentence “fides quaerens intellectum”.

I, on the other hand, would say that I am testing myself. Hence, I reach for books written by unbelieving theologians and for those who defend the faith or describe a given problem from the perspective of a believer. As you wrote in the book, which I really liked, If you believe in what you are studying, you've already lost any claim to scientific objectivity.

But this problem seems to me to concern not only believers, but also non-believers, who may filter individual content, too. Both may have a goal. The former want to defend faith, while the latter want to show that it does not make sense. I would very much not like to be on either side. I would not like someone to accuse me of only reaching for specific literature and expressing given views, because I am a non-believer. The idea is to get closer to the lack of initial assumptions. I think you understand it perfectly. I do care about it, hopefully, as much as you do, even though we approached it from opposite sides. You once believed, and I was convinced of the pointlessness of faith, but I knew almost nothing about biblical studies at that time.

However, asking you what you recommend or do not recommend is also important here, so if you say that a given author is in your opinion a waste of time, I trust your experience. Moreover, I trust you more than the average theologian because you have rejected the initial assumptions. That is why I thank you for being here.

"For example, the problem of Pilate. This is something that still bugs me a lot."

The problem is very interesting and I would like to look at it in the future as well. Thank you!
 
I would like to say that I was able to post a book review on Amazon today. I got the information:

"Review submitted - Thank you!
We're processing your review. This might take several days, so we appreciate your patience. We will e-mail you when this is complete. "
 
My situation is that I have never been a believer. I wouldn't call myself an atheist (atheism can be considered as a fairly broad concept), it's a more complex issue. The soonest I could describe myself as a doubter, although that is not a fully accurate term either. However, I do not consider the Bible to be Holy Scripture and I never did.

Well, understand, that I was a "believer with reservations and needing some evidence." But, I put it on like a mantle and began to experiment with it. I figured that if there was any truth to the Jesus story, getting the best translation would get me closer to "the Word." That's when I discovered big problems and realized that people sure felt comfortable making stuff up.

Nevertheless, I also became interested in this topic at some point in my life, because I am aware of how valuable the Bible is in terms of anthropology, history and culture.

I thought that too. However, after reading the archaeology and analyses I've listed above (and a whole lot more), I realized that the OT was a "created" history, retrojected into the past, and not much could be known about Israel/Judea by reading it. What could be studied would be the mental processes of those who made stuff up.

The phenomenon of believing theologians has long puzzled me. Hence, in my case it was in a way that I wanted to understand why a person who has theological knowledge believes. From what you write at the beginning, you reached for apologetic literature. I do not know if I get it right, but I see it a bit as an attempt to understand faith according to the sentence “fides quaerens intellectum”.

I sure read a lot of apologetic literature and, in the beginning, tried to accept it as reasonable. It wasn't, however, and anybody with firing neurons could see that, so I rapidly shifted gears. I decided that the more I knew about the whole topic, the better able I would be to see when an author was prestidigitating.

I, on the other hand, would say that I am testing myself. Hence, I reach for books written by unbelieving theologians and for those who defend the faith or describe a given problem from the perspective of a believer. As you wrote in the book, which I really liked, If you believe in what you are studying, you've already lost any claim to scientific objectivity.

Well, I read enough by believers to not want to waste my time with it anymore.

But I find atheists and total mythicists to be equally annoying. Something motivated people to write that stuff, to imagine it, to present it as real, and that is more interesting to me.

But this problem seems to me to concern not only believers, but also non-believers, who may filter individual content, too. Both may have a goal. The former want to defend faith, while the latter want to show that it does not make sense. I would very much not like to be on either side. I would not like someone to accuse me of only reaching for specific literature and expressing given views, because I am a non-believer. The idea is to get closer to the lack of initial assumptions. I think you understand it perfectly. I do care about it, hopefully, as much as you do, even though we approached it from opposite sides. You once believed, and I was convinced of the pointlessness of faith, but I knew almost nothing about biblical studies at that time.

It would be hard not to believe to some extent when you are brought up in a family that included "professionals" in the field. My great grandfather was not only a minister in the Methodist church, he was a professor of Greek at a theological seminary. The whole family was oriented around religious belief.

I also knew, from early in my life, that spirit was a real phenomenon because I had unusual experiences that could be assessed objectively.


However, asking you what you recommend or do not recommend is also important here, so if you say that a given author is in your opinion a waste of time, I trust your experience. Moreover, I trust you more than the average theologian because you have rejected the initial assumptions. That is why I thank you for being here.

"For example, the problem of Pilate. This is something that still bugs me a lot."

The problem is very interesting and I would like to look at it in the future as well. Thank you!

I read enough literature from believers in preparation for writing FPTM and even cited a number of them therein if only as examples of what errors blind belief can lead to. There are many books I read but did not cite nor list in the Bibliography because there was nothing of real value in them. Nevertheless, I read them.
 
Well, understand, that I was a "believer with reservations and needing some evidence." But, I put it on like a mantle and began to experiment with it. I figured that if there was any truth to the Jesus story, getting the best translation would get me closer to "the Word." That's when I discovered big problems and realized that people sure felt comfortable making stuff up.



I thought that too. However, after reading the archaeology and analyses I've listed above (and a whole lot more), I realized that the OT was a "created" history, retrojected into the past, and not much could be known about Israel/Judea by reading it. What could be studied would be the mental processes of those who made stuff up.



I sure read a lot of apologetic literature and, in the beginning, tried to accept it as reasonable. It wasn't, however, and anybody with firing neurons could see that, so I rapidly shifted gears. I decided that the more I knew about the whole topic, the better able I would be to see when an author was prestidigitating.



Well, I read enough by believers to not want to waste my time with it anymore.

But I find atheists and total mythicists to be equally annoying. Something motivated people to write that stuff, to imagine it, to present it as real, and that is more interesting to me.



It would be hard not to believe to some extent when you are brought up in a family that included "professionals" in the field. My great grandfather was not only a minister in the Methodist church, he was a professor of Greek at a theological seminary. The whole family was oriented around religious belief.

I also knew, from early in my life, that spirit was a real phenomenon because I had unusual experiences that could be assessed objectively.




I read enough literature from believers in preparation for writing FPTM and even cited a number of them therein if only as examples of what errors blind belief can lead to. There are many books I read but did not cite nor list in the Bibliography because there was nothing of real value in them. Nevertheless, I read them.
"Well, understand, that I was a "believer with reservations and needing some evidence." But, I put it on like a mantle and began to experiment with it. I figured that if there was any truth to the Jesus story, getting the best translation would get me closer to "the Word." That's when I discovered big problems and realized that people sure felt comfortable making stuff up."


I perfectly understand you needed proof. Hence my "fides quaerens intellectum". Also, I don't think it was just about you. I know that you had little children then and you probably wondered what you were going to say to them. You didn't want to tell them made-up tales, you wanted to tell them the truth, I guess.


“I thought that too. However, after reading the archaeology and analyses I've listed above (and a whole lot more), I realized that the OT was a "created" history, retrojected into the past, and not much could be known about Israel/Judea by reading it. What could be studied would be the mental processes of those who made stuff up.”


It is possible that I was not entirely clear when I wrote about the Bible as being relevant from a historical, cultural, and anthropological perspective. I knew about probable distortions quite a long time ago, my mother told me about it, who was also interested in this subject to some extent. Hence, when speaking of history, culture and anthropology, I mean that, first of all, for many people, the Bible is a historical work, while I was interested in where the authors drew their inspiration from, and how it could be related to the cultural background, and how explain myth-making from an anthropological perspective.


“I sure read a lot of apologetic literature and, in the beginning, tried to accept it as reasonable. It wasn't, however, and anybody with firing neurons could see that, so I rapidly shifted gears. I decided that the more I knew about the whole topic, the better able I would be to see when an author was prestidigitating.”


The point that amazes me the most is that I personally know professors of theology who have also read a lot in their lives, some of them also deal with archeology, others with historical research, and somehow, despite their extensive knowledge, there are some deeply believers among them. This is a phenomenon for me. I guess it's a psychological issue, some kind of denial, fear.


“Well, I read enough by believers to not want to waste my time with it anymore.

But I find atheists and total mythicists to be equally annoying. Something motivated people to write that stuff, to imagine it, to present it as real, and that is more interesting to me.”



I agree with every sentence you wrote here. Yes, atheists can be extremely irritating. One example for me is Richard Dawkins, who allegedly considers himself an atheist, but when I listen to his statements, I have the impression that he lacks every consistency in his views.



“It would be hard not to believe to some extent when you are brought up in a family that included "professionals" in the field. My great grandfather was not only a minister in the Methodist church, he was a professor of Greek at a theological seminary. The whole family was oriented around religious belief.

I also knew, from early in my life, that spirit was a real phenomenon because I had unusual experiences that could be assessed objectively.”



In my family there used to be strong religious traditions and there were also professors of theology and religious people there, but I am talking more about the generation of my great-grandparents. I was not brought up in faith anymore. My mother told me about inconsistencies in the Bible since I was a child, and when I was little she often read the literature on the subject.



As for mystical or paranormal experiences, it also applies to me from an early age, but I have never associated it with the Christian faith. I knew that there was something more in this world, something that lay beyond the visible edge, beyond the shell of materialism. Despite many experiences, I was always very skeptical. I tried to explain to myself rationally why I see some things and others do not see them, why I have prophetic dreams, why strange events are happening around me. What fully convinced me was the materialization of objects in front of my own eyes.



“I read enough literature from believers in preparation for writing FPTM and even cited a number of them therein if only as examples of what errors blind belief can lead to. There are many books I read but did not cite nor list in the Bibliography because there was nothing of real value in them. Nevertheless, I read them.”



Yes, I have noted some of the items you cite. So let's continue this journey! Thank you for another comprehensive answer, Laura.
 
The point that amazes me the most is that I personally know professors of theology who have also read a lot in their lives, some of them also deal with archeology, others with historical research, and somehow, despite their extensive knowledge, there are some deeply believers among them. This is a phenomenon for me. I guess it's a psychological issue, some kind of denial, fear.

There are a couple of books that deal with this issue. Bob Altemeyer's work on Authoritarian personalities is a good place to start. Two books in particular: "Right Wing Authoritarianism" and "Amazing Conversions: Why Some Turn to Faith and Others Abandon Religion".

Then, there is Barbara Oakley's "Evil Genes: Why Rome Fell, Hitler Rose and My Sister Stole My Mother's Boyfriend".

And of course, "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt.

Drawing on his twenty-five years of groundbreaking research on moral psychology, social psychologist Jonathan Haidt shows how moral judgments arise not from reason but from gut feelings. He shows why liberals, conservatives, and libertarians have such different intuitions about right and wrong, and he shows why each side is actually right about many of its central concerns.
 
There are a couple of books that deal with this issue. Bob Altemeyer's work on Authoritarian personalities is a good place to start. Two books in particular: "Right Wing Authoritarianism" and "Amazing Conversions: Why Some Turn to Faith and Others Abandon Religion".

Then, there is Barbara Oakley's "Evil Genes: Why Rome Fell, Hitler Rose and My Sister Stole My Mother's Boyfriend".

And of course, "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt.
Thank you!

Of the authors and books mentioned, I know and read Jonathan Haidt. I also know Altmeyer, but not this particular position.

Besides, I also read other books and articles on similar topics, including confirmation effect, etc. However, the mere knowledge of the theory is not enough for me to stop being surprised. I understand a little, but I have always dreamed of having an insight into the mental processes of another person (of course with their consent), to be able to examine them, find cause-and-effect relationships.

This is also related to my interest in consciousness and neurobiology, but the current way of doing neurobiology is, in my opinion, completely insufficient. Perhaps another path is slightly better - quantum neurobiology, also neuropsychology, but this is still a very young field.

Thank you again for the recommended books. I will be happy to reach for them when I finish reading the ones I currently have to read.
 
Back
Top Bottom