Fulcanelli and Gurdjieff

mkrnhr

mkrnhr

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Hello,
I would like to share this except from Patrick Rivière's website (he is the prefacer of TSHOTW). His text is in french and can be found at
_http://www.alchymie.net/articles/feu_secret_et_rosee.htm

I translated into english the first sentences :

Without genuine 'Matter Spiritualization', we cannot really pretend approaching Alchemy. The major problem for the alchemist consists then to capture the cosmic energy or "Spiritus Mundi" (Philosophers AEther or Azoth) in order to animate matter and then transcending it.

It's the thorny issue of the 'Secret Fire' that is mentioned here, although some, obviously more "followers of Gurdjieff" than of as Fulcanelli, argue that the Secret Fire would correspond in fact just to a subtle and particular state of being, an exaltation of the soul, somehow ...
Click to expand...

P. Rivière argues that these divine emanations that we fix are also a physical process and not only an internal process.

It seems that the alchemical work consists first to prepare the adequate "chalice" in order to be able to receive (AFV?) and fix "divine/astral flux".

In TSHOTW, we have this idea that alchemy is a mystery in three words : the divine, the human, and the elemental. And that the work on consciousness so to say operates on four levels : The physical body, the genetic body, the spiritual/ethereal body and consciousness.

I would like to know if I understand the main idea that this Secret Fire captation in the physical world P. Rivière is talking about could relate to the DNA activation after work on mind made possible by the work à la Gurdjieff?
 
Re: Fulcanelli and Gurdgieff

As far as I can tell, Patrick is a totally sincere guy. He's also dogged and determined when it comes to following a thread of an idea and clues, which is why I think he is right about the identity of Fulcanelli. But, we have had a somewhat different experience of the world and we don't see exactly eye to eye on just a few things, one of them being his focus on materiality and his lack of attention to the work on the self. (Not to mention his opinion of Gurdjieff.)

From my point of view - and experience - when one works on the self, then one is changed and able to see the unseen which then enables one to make certain choices which can change the universe and then that new universe presents material opportunities that lead to more clues. This process is obviously only limited by one's ability to accommodate disintegrating realities (utilizing Dabrowski's scheme as a metaphor, though it is not entirely metaphorical).

The material approach, in my opinion (and based on my observation and experience) has a definite limit. If you seek your clues within your present "reality bubble" without first working on the self, then that is as far as you will ever go.

Work on the self is difficult and often painful and even unpleasant. You have to be able to know how to seek and accommodate disintegration, and many people are frightened of this. They attempt to substitute all kinds of ideas and theories for how and why they can achieve the objective through strictly material means. All of this amounts to their frantic efforts to stave off disintegration. It's amazing how much energy some people will put into activities and beliefs just to avoid facing hard truths.

Patrick and I have had a few conversations about Gurdjieff and his work. Patrick does not put value in the idea of working on the self first and foremost so as to be able to "change universes" where the array of clues and opportunities may expand. He is convinced that if he doggedly and determinedly follows the "recipes" of material alchemy that these substances that he might develop will act on his body in such a way that the changes are effected for him, more or less painlessly.

I have observed that when a person's "reality bubble/universe" changes, or branches, their lives generally change in fundamental ways also. This is a result not only of their different perception - their new eyes, so to say - but also of different choices they make based on this new perception. You could say that their life is a metaphor for what they are. If their world "expands" in significant ways, then you might suppose that something has expanded within. If their lives contract, likewise. You can't necessarily evaluate such by the fact that there are disintegrative events/changes in their lives, (which can include relationship changes, etc) because such changes can lead them Up or Down. Only time tells which way they are traveling - whether their reality is getting smaller and more constricted or growing and expanding. Sometimes that period of time is just a few months - the universe can work almost instantaneously, but usually it takes a little time to organize things.

I have observed that those who approach the matter from a strictly material perspective tend to experience lives of contraction. I have yet to see an exception. It doesn't mean that they are not sincere or that they are not working very hard at what they can presently see, it is just that they have not applied the same diligence to the "three worlds" equally.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

The success of the alchemist is revealed in the metaphor of his life and relationships.
 
Re: Fulcanelli and Gurdgieff

The physical approach to alchemy is pervasive among "occultists" and self-styled "alchemists". It is essentially "magick", i.e. the manipulation of external reality to effect changes either in the self or in that external reality. "Magickians" lack the "key", that is to say, the fact that the ascent from unilevel reality (the alchemical dragon, chaos, prima materia, etc) to multilevel reality is accompanied by a shift from external reality to internal reality. The physical processes do not effect change within, they are a symbolic code (i.e. language of the gods, green language) which relate the inner processes which must be experienced in order to undergo transformation. To expect some external manipulations to have that effect is like expecting to become a great golfer by playing video games. Sure, you may be able to apply some of the things you learned from the game, but it's a whole different game.

Ironically, even though these practitioners lack the "key" they nonetheless transmit the tradition in a relatively clean form. The processes of transformation are universal, and by transmitting the recipes and physical processes, they actually present material that can be worked with by those with eyes to see.
 
Re: Fulcanelli and Gurdgieff

...that their life is a metaphor for what they are...
Click to expand...

I am not used to 'throw flowers' and when I have nothing to say I say nothing, but I should thank you a lot for this answer. I didn't answer immediately of course because sometimes it takes some time to be sure that one understands, but more then that because of the powerful impression it (the answer) had on me. It's vertiginous and I will work on it. Thank you.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
...the ascent from unilevel reality (the alchemical dragon, chaos, prima materia, etc) to multilevel reality is accompanied by a shift from external reality to internal reality...
Click to expand...
I think I understand it now. Thank you.
P.S. prima materia doesn't sound like "first mother" sometimes (materia=matter and mater=mother) ? Maybe related to the idea of the widow (mother of Perseus/Perceval) or black virgin (mother of Christ to be) ? Not important within this thread however.
 
Re: Fulcanelli and Gurdgieff

This is very interesting. It's like those people who are drawn to magic and alchemy in that material way are lured by the glamour or the wondrous appearance of it. But working on oneself doesn't feel majestic, it's more like cleaning crap out of stables or chicken coops. Totally unglamorous. The reward comes after, not before, when you can then fertilize your fields with the composted manure and healthy plants grow.

Laura said:
...
From my point of view - and experience - when one works on the self, then one is changed and able to see the unseen which then enables one to make certain choices which can change the universe and then that new universe presents material opportunities that lead to more clues. This process is obviously only limited by one's ability to accommodate disintegrating realities (utilizing Dabrowski's scheme as a metaphor, though it is not entirely metaphorical).

The material approach, in my opinion (and based on my observation and experience) has a definite limit. If you seek your clues within your present "reality bubble" without first working on the self, then that is as far as you will ever go.

Work on the self is difficult and often painful and even unpleasant. You have to be able to know how to seek and accommodate disintegration, and many people are frightened of this. They attempt to substitute all kinds of ideas and theories for how and why they can achieve the objective through strictly material means. All of this amounts to their frantic efforts to stave off disintegration. It's amazing how much energy some people will put into activities and beliefs just to avoid facing hard truths.

Patrick and I have had a few conversations about Gurdjieff and his work. Patrick does not put value in the idea of working on the self first and foremost so as to be able to "change universes" where the array of clues and opportunities may expand. He is convinced that if he doggedly and determinedly follows the "recipes" of material alchemy that these substances that he might develop will act on his body in such a way that the changes are effected for him, more or less painlessly.

I have observed that when a person's "reality bubble/universe" changes, or branches, their lives generally change in fundamental ways also. This is a result not only of their different perception - their new eyes, so to say - but also of different choices they make based on this new perception. You could say that their life is a metaphor for what they are. If their world "expands" in significant ways, then you might suppose that something has expanded within. If their lives contract, likewise. You can't necessarily evaluate such by the fact that there are disintegrative events/changes in their lives, (which can include relationship changes, etc) because such changes can lead them Up or Down. Only time tells which way they are traveling - whether their reality is getting smaller and more constricted or growing and expanding. Sometimes that period of time is just a few months - the universe can work almost instantaneously, but usually it takes a little time to organize things.

I have observed that those who approach the matter from a strictly material perspective tend to experience lives of contraction. I have yet to see an exception. It doesn't mean that they are not sincere or that they are not working very hard at what they can presently see, it is just that they have not applied the same diligence to the "three worlds" equally.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

The success of the alchemist is revealed in the metaphor of his life and relationships.
Click to expand...
 
I recently found a series of 3 videos on alchemy and Patrick Riviere, which are in french (unfortunately I don't know that language, so I can't understand what he says, perhaps the french speaking members could help, for example what do the chemists at the modern lab say about his substances), situated here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x92umt_lalchimie-science-et-mysticisme-13_tech
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x92ue6_lalchimie-science-et-mysticisme-23_tech
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x92u4d_lalchimie-science-et-mysticisme-33_tech

My thought on the topic is that it's somewhat interesting to conduct the physical part of alchemy only as far as you are able to observe some principles and laws of nature and man, but after all, having produced physical gold doesn't mean one has completed the Great Work the way Fulcanelli did. Perfection of one's being and learning all the lessons of 3d are "waiting" for one to complete them before one can transit to a higher plane of existence. So I would rather stick to the spiritual part and work on oneself, unveiling, etc. It seems to me that the Universe doesn't care much if you want to stop a war for example by prayer, things would instead work if you know what you are doing on the many levels of reality when you DO whatever you need to. Probably Mr. Riviere is thinking of Gurdjieff something similar to the comments in the Mysteries of the Cathedrals on Jung and thus closing himself to Gurdjieff's ideas and more accurately facts about the human machine (or it's a choice at some level to avoid the hard work)? Have a look at this quote from the Mysteries of the Cathedrals book in the introduction by Walter Lang:

Since Jung's work in alchemy began to infiltrate modern psychology, alchemy as a 'mental' or at any rate a non-physical process, has become a fashionable acceptance. Typical of the 'reductionist' attitudes of the twentieth century is the current belief that alchemy has now been explained. It is 'nothing but' an early and crude study of psychology and perhaps of ESP. Dazzled by the success of science in providing a label for everything, few have bothered to inquire whether the aphorism of Hermes 'as above, so below' might not require a process valid at mental level to be equally valid at physical level.
Click to expand...

If Laura has some time to respond, what is Patrick Riviere's take on the spiritual part of alchemy and hyperdimensionality(if he has spoken about them)? If I am confusing things or am misinterpreting something (as I discover this many times to be the case), do correct me, and sorry for my english.
 
ivan said:
...having produced physical gold doesn't mean one has completed the Great Work the way Fulcanelli did.
Click to expand...

I dont think fulcenelli even completed it. he did not make the medicine.


Edit=Quotes
 
Nathaniel said:
ivan said:
...having produced physical gold doesn't mean one has completed the Great Work the way Fulcanelli did.

I dont think fulcenelli even completed it. he did not make the medicine.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I don know why my post came out like this. so yea.
I dont think fulcenelli even completed the work. he did not make the medicine.


Edit=Quotes
 
Nathaniel said:
Nathaniel said:
ivan said:
...having produced physical gold doesn't mean one has completed the Great Work the way Fulcanelli did.

I dont think fulcenelli even completed it. he did not make the medicine.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I don know why my post came out like this. so yea.
I dont think fulcenelli even completed the work. he did not make the medicine.


Edit=Quotes
Click to expand...

Nathanial, I've noticed that you seem to have a misunderstanding about the real meaning of alchemy. It is not really about flasks and powders, salts and liquids and puffers. It is an internal process; the philosopher's stone could also be called 'the seed of the soul' - the transmutation is a spiritual one, fusing a real and singular I, thus being able to 'move outside time', as it were, and no longer be trapped by the physical laws of 3D reality and mortality - the Great Work. The alchemists never spoke of this in detail because it is a hidden art, a hermetic science. Puffers are those who cannot see past the physical symbolism of the descriptions of alchemy. Alchemy is about the soul, the transmutation of the lead of mechanical existence into the gold of immortality. Yes, one can play with salts and liquids and fire, but that is not the deeper meaning. If you've not yet read Secret History of the World or finished the Wave Series yet, they will both help with your understanding of this.
 
anart said:
Nathaniel said:
Nathaniel said:
ivan said:
...having produced physical gold doesn't mean one has completed the Great Work the way Fulcanelli did.

I dont think fulcenelli even completed it. he did not make the medicine.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I don know why my post came out like this. so yea.
I dont think fulcenelli even completed the work. he did not make the medicine.


Edit=Quotes
Click to expand...

Nathanial, I've noticed that you seem to have a misunderstanding about the real meaning of alchemy. It is not really about flasks and powders, salts and liquids and puffers. It is an internal process; the philosopher's stone could also be called 'the seed of the soul' - the transmutation is a spiritual one, fusing a real and singular I, thus being able to 'move outside time', as it were, and no longer be trapped by the physical laws of 3D reality and mortality - the Great Work. The alchemists never spoke of this in detail because it is a hidden art, a hermetic science. Puffers are those who cannot see past the physical symbolism of the descriptions of alchemy. Alchemy is about the soul, the transmutation of the lead of mechanical existence into the gold of immortality. Yes, one can play with salts and liquids and fire, but that is not the deeper meaning. If you've not yet read Secret History of the World or finished the Wave Series yet, they will both help with your understanding of this.
Click to expand...

I knew this. thats what the medicine is for. when you take it, it cleanses your body from all impurities and make your body like a super conductor. So then you can come out your body like if you were doing astral projection to know who you really are and also go out of time like you said. its not so hard to understand. And yes the alchemist dont really write about it plainly but i read books on doaist alchemy and they explain what happens when you take the elixirs. Meditation is also a form of alchemy since you try to raise the kundalini or secret fire, but with the meditation it takes longer and i myself experienced this with the kundalini which i did not raise it to the top of my head but half way but it is draining it feels like a liquid in your spine. it takes 100 days to raise the first lvl of the kundalini then you go on to the next stage. but with the minerals its much shorter and you can say its like the secret of the alchemist. I've experienced astral projection myself so i know what the alchemist are talking about, but i did not reach 7 d. so yea i have an small idea of what they mean. :)
 
Nathaniel said:
I knew this. thats what the medicine is for. when you take it, it cleanses your body from all impurities and make your body like a super conductor. So then you can come out your body like if you were doing astral projection to know who you really are and also go out of time like you said. its not so hard to understand.
Click to expand...

No, Nathaniel, I'm afraid you are mistaken. It's not about taking a substance or astral projection. There are no short cuts.

n said:
And yes the alchemist dont really write about it plainly but i read books on doaist alchemy and they explain what happens when you take the elixirs.
Click to expand...

It is internal Work, Nathaniel, it's not about taking elixirs.


n said:
Meditation is also a form of alchemy since you try to raise the kundalini or secret fire, but with the meditation it takes longer and i myself experienced this with the kundalini which i did not raise it to the top of my head but half way but it is draining it feels like a liquid in your spine. it takes 100 days to raise the first lvl of the kundalini then you go on to the next stage. but with the minerals its much shorter and you can say its like the secret of the alchemist. I've experienced astral projection myself so i know what the alchemist are talking about, but i did not reach 7 d. so yea i have an small idea of what they mean. :)
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that you have digested a lot of disinformation, Nathaniel. It is not about 'kundalini' - this is all disinformation. Perhaps if you search for the term 'kundalini' on the forum, you can find out why this is disinformation. I strongly suggest that you read Secret History of the World to clear up some of your misconceptions. It's understandable that one can be led astray with all the disinformation out there, but there is no magic elixir one can ingest to do the Great Work and there are no short cuts. It's not about new age ideas of kundalini or astral projection. Becoming familiar with the work of G.I. Gurdjieff will also help you, since his 'fusion of a singular I' and discussion about using internal heat to transform bring a lot of alchemical references to a more easily accessed intellectual level.
 
anart said:
n said:
Meditation is also a form of alchemy since you try to raise the kundalini or secret fire, but with the meditation it takes longer and i myself experienced this with the kundalini which i did not raise it to the top of my head but half way but it is draining it feels like a liquid in your spine. it takes 100 days to raise the first lvl of the kundalini then you go on to the next stage. but with the minerals its much shorter and you can say its like the secret of the alchemist. I've experienced astral projection myself so i know what the alchemist are talking about, but i did not reach 7 d. so yea i have an small idea of what they mean. :)
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that you have digested a lot of disinformation, Nathaniel. It is not about 'kundalini' - this is all disinformation. Perhaps if you search for the term 'kundalini' on the forum, you can find out why this is disinformation. I strongly suggest that you read Secret History of the World to clear up some of your misconceptions. It's understandable that one can be led astray with all the disinformation out there, but there is no magic elixir one can ingest to do the Great Work and there are no short cuts. It's not about new age ideas of kundalini or astral projection. Becoming familiar with the work of G.I. Gurdjieff will also help you, since his 'fusion of a singular I' and discussion about using internal heat to transform bring a lot of alchemical references to a more easily accessed intellectual level.
Click to expand...

Yes Nathaniel, one of the biggest obstacles is to be self-satisfied, we think we already know, we think we are ready to climb high mountains but we need first to be able to walk on flat.
Realy there is nothing you can do now, not untill you refuse dreaming.
 
If you read the first chapter of "le mystère des cathédrales" of Fulcanelli, and at many occasions in "demeures philosophales", it is clear that Alchemy is about internal process and those material processes are metaphors for the internal work (and give the illusion that it is a materialistic chimera for strategic enclosure). This is a simplification of course, because the material process can be used as a hint into the multidimensional aspect of the process. Le first chapters of "The Secret History of the World" is a more than recommended material on this topic.
 
Nathaniel said:
anart said:
Nathanial, I've noticed that you seem to have a misunderstanding about the real meaning of alchemy. It is not really about flasks and powders, salts and liquids and puffers. It is an internal process; the philosopher's stone could also be called 'the seed of the soul' - the transmutation is a spiritual one, fusing a real and singular I, thus being able to 'move outside time', as it were, and no longer be trapped by the physical laws of 3D reality and mortality - the Great Work. The alchemists never spoke of this in detail because it is a hidden art, a hermetic science. Puffers are those who cannot see past the physical symbolism of the descriptions of alchemy. Alchemy is about the soul, the transmutation of the lead of mechanical existence into the gold of immortality. Yes, one can play with salts and liquids and fire, but that is not the deeper meaning. If you've not yet read Secret History of the World or finished the Wave Series yet, they will both help with your understanding of this.
Click to expand...

I knew this. thats what the medicine is for. when you take it, it cleanses your body from all impurities and make your body like a super conductor. So then you can come out your body like if you were doing astral projection to know who you really are and also go out of time like you said. its not so hard to understand. And yes the alchemist dont really write about it plainly but i read books on doaist alchemy and they explain what happens when you take the elixirs. Meditation is also a form of alchemy since you try to raise the kundalini or secret fire, but with the meditation it takes longer and i myself experienced this with the kundalini which i did not raise it to the top of my head but half way but it is draining it feels like a liquid in your spine. it takes 100 days to raise the first lvl of the kundalini then you go on to the next stage. but with the minerals its much shorter and you can say its like the secret of the alchemist. I've experienced astral projection myself so i know what the alchemist are talking about, but i did not reach 7 d. so yea i have an small idea of what they mean. :)
Click to expand...

Nathaniel, have you noticed that everytime you respond to Anart by saying "I know this" that it turns out that you didn't understand what she was saying? If so, what does that tell you?
 
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