Gurdjieff and Steve Jobs

Can Apple Inc.'s products be understood as focusing, amplifying and facilitating tools for the growth and expansion of emotional-brain capacity, as they claim?

"Gurdjieff and Steve Jobs"- A Documentary

The annual All & Everything International Humanities Conference (25-29 April, 2012) presents "Gurdjieff and Steve Jobs," a documentary movie by John Amaral which draws on the insights of George Gurdjieff and neuroscientist Paul McClain, tied together with the work of physicists James Clerk Maxwell and Richard Feynman, to understand the products marketed by Steve Jobs at Apple, Inc. in a new important way essential for the survival of human life.

Said Professor Amaral, "In the 20th Century, George Gurdjieff and Paul McLean independently proposed the idea that we have three functional brains (evolved to digest outside, inside and abstract images). Mr. Gurdjieff identified the second, emotional brain as 'atrophied,' characterizing this as the chief cause of war. The future of human life depends on Man's ability to bridge this gap and to reconcile the rapidly accelerating technological innovation since Maxwell, beginning 1875. Apple, Inc.'s products can generally be understood as focusing, amplifying and facilitating tools for the growth and expansion of emotional-brain capacity. Apple's tremendous success in the marketplace can be seen as an existence-proof of the effectiveness of this strategy. This success may now be in jeopardy."

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Part 1: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3P3G8lvLsA
Part 2: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSAfkU-F_kM
Part 3: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB8ZcIB25UY
Part 4: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBbZMtXji-4

Given the link included in the video description on YT, the producer John Amaral seems to be the founder and Director of USSCM, US College of Music / US School of Commercial Music who wrote in his letter:

_http://www.usschoolofmusic.com/director/DirectorLetter.html

In our cost-effective programs you will discover the TECHNIQUES used by top musicians who routinely earn 6-figure incomes or do the most creative work. What better place to learn all this than in the comfort and convenience of your own home?

You'll be taken step-by-step through dozens of the most powerful creative techniques ever discovered. Some are so secret that only a handful of people know what they are... so secret that they are not even taught yet in other music schools. [Red from original]

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He is, or is not, the John Amaral mentioned here:
_http://gurdjieffbooks.wordpress.com/tag/john-amaral/
as editor of the book "Gurdjieff's teaching: for scholars and practitioners" by Keith A. Buzzell and as "long-time student of Gurdjieff's teaching" here. It seems very likely that's the same person. See:

_http://www.gurdjieff.org/amaral1.htm

Courses and Practica in the J.G. Bennett Tradition of the Gurdjieff Work
An interview of George Bennett and Elan Sicroff
By John Amaral

A distinction of the Bennett lineage of the Gurdjieff Work has been its Practicum trainings in which numbers of people live and work together for a definite time. The aims and format of the trainings are revealing and useful for understanding J.G. Bennett’s presentation of Gurdjieff’s teaching. I sat with George Bennett and Elan Sicroff (biographies below) to discuss their history, features and effectiveness. A recording of these conversations is available at: _www.usschoolofmusic.com/A&E/JGB/practica.mp3.

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By the way,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc. said:

On July 2, 2013, Apple announced the recruitment of Paul Deneve, Belgian President and CEO of Yves Saint Laurent, to Apple's top ranks. A spokesperson for the company stated, "We're thrilled to welcome Paul Deneve to Apple. He'll be working on special projects as a vice president reporting directly to Tim Cook."

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The maker mentions being an Apple developer and his ongoing involvement with software development, connected to his particular ideals and visions for the future. To me, his enthusiasm with Apple in particular seems the likely result of buying into that brand in particular - eventually in more ways than with money (i.e. his professional involvement). This article may be relevant to many aspects of his presentation - though it is focused on the simpler kind of brand loyalty based on narratives that are formed to justify monetary investment: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

On the whole, the documentary looks to me like wiseacring, and of a kind that is a bit sad to see - he really doesn't get the bigger picture. It connects Gurdjieff's teachings with Apple enthusiasm along with an utopian take on the scientific and technological development of our civilization. He sees these developments as progress, something beneficial to humanity - all the way, presumably, up to the future "singularity" and beyond. (Which is quite unlike Gurdjieff's ideas regarding progress - and doesn't take into account the terminal pathology of our civilization, which controls the development of and subsumes everything new.) He does consider (very brief mention) the possibility of a civilizational collapse in the future, but thinks our technology, in that case, is going to make the preservation of our knowledge for the future more likely.

He mentions Steve Jobs having been into Gurdjieff, and having echoed one piece of Gurdjieffian advice. That, however, does not imply any great personal development (in the Fourth Way sense) on the part of Jobs. The maker also speaks of Apple products inspiring hope, faith and love through their aesthetics. This simply seems to be a case of brand identification - I mean, it's a rather shallow take on these emotions, and hardly the kind of emotional development Gurdjieff spoke about.

The maker mentions positive effects, on emotional and social development, of computer-related and other modern technologies. Modern technology - the internet in particular - can indeed be used for good, in making possible a great spreading of information and communication worldwide. It's also what has made this network possible. And it looks to be the last bastion of freedom and the remaining general source of accurate information in our world. But if we look at most people around us in the world at present, we do not see emotional and social development as a result of technology - we see people vastly connected in social networks and constantly phoning and texting one another, but in terms of real-life connection - more isolated than ever. I think there's been articles on this subject on SOTT over the years, though I don't remember their titles. We see people more disconnected from reality than ever before, and dumbed-down both intellectually and emotionally.

When it comes to Apple in particular, Apple is singled out as a great technological benefactor of humanity. This case is mostly made through presenting the slogans and methods used in their advertising campaigns - this somehow constituting the "evidence". Also mentioned is that Apple, in competing with other companies, has caused improvement in the devices offered by other companies. This goes for every major player in the industry - each spurring the others in the same field on - and the documentary never provided any real reason to single out Apple. As far as I can see, Apple is just another corporation - it has contributed innovatively here and there, as have many other companies, but other than that, it has just been one of many in the industry.

Well, I watched it.

I have to agree with Psalehesost. The funniest part was when he claimed that the wonders of all these technological toys have made today's younger generations more knowledgeable about the world and what is going on. I'm afraid I did one of these:

The other part I found "interesting" was that he repeatedly showed the Cassiopeia A supernova remnant (the pretty colorized one), with of course the Cass constellation right smack in the middle of it. Especially at the end, this image lingered on the screen for many minutes.

It wouldn't surprise me to find Blavatsky's Theosophical Society behind this. Who needs them?

Thank you Psalehesost for the summary and your comments.

There are some things in all that story that don't seem quite right to me.

That said "long-time student of Gurdjieff's teaching" made what basically amounts to a promo video for Apple (without Apple's involvement, as it seems). The maker, the "long-time student", comes across as pretty much identifying himself with the company, its ideology, its products, and likely with S.J.'s persona. Isn't it odd? He seems to be stretching things a lot in his presentation, making big claims that seem to have no base in facts - pretty much what Apple and S.J. have been doing, right? Plus, isn't Apple's policy/message all about being "speshial", all about "me, me, me"? Very Gurdjievian approach, indeed!

He talks about education and how much Apple cared/s about it. Yeah, right. The deliberate corruption of the education system:

Buddy said:

From the Foreword of the Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book :

Charlotte Iserbyt is to be greatly commended for having put together the most formidable and practical compilation of documentation describing the “deliberate dumbing down” of American children by their education system. Anyone interested in the truth will be shocked by the way American social engineers have systematically gone about destroying the intellect of millions of American children for the purpose of leading the American people into a socialist world government controlled by behavioral and social scientists.

One of the Appendices:
Excerpts from “The National Alliance for Restructuring Education:
Schools—and Systems—for the 21st Century”

Another one of the Appendices:
A Proposal to the New American Schools Development Corporation by the National Center on Education and the Economy
Attn.: Marc Tucker, President
39 State Street, Suite 500, Rochester (Monroe County), NY 14614
Phone: (716) 546-7620 and FAX: (716) 546-3145

and its Partners:

State of Arkansas
Apple Computer, Inc.
State of Kentucky
Center for the Study of Social Policy
State of New York
Commission on the Skills of the American Workforce, Pittsburgh, PA
Harvard Project on Effective Services, Rochester, NY
Learning Research and Development Center at the University of Pittsburgh
San Diego, CA
State of Vermont
National Alliance of Business
State of Washington
National Board for Professional Teaching Standards, White Plains, NY
New Standards Project
Xerox Corporation

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The 'documentary' was presented at the annual All & Everything International Humanities Conference last year. Why? Why is he promoting Apple and their products in Gurdjieff related community? If they are not 'converted' yet, it looks a bit like a Trojan Horse. Here is their Charter: _http://aandeconference.org/

He adores S.J. who became an icon, a person around which some kind of a cult has been formed. You can find claims made by his fans that "Steve Jobs was one of the most influential human beings of our century". He was, indeed, but what kind of influence it was? I wouldn't say it was positive in any way. An icon of the "century of the self", playing on it and making business of it with no scruples at all. Can anyone think they are just dying birds yellow and selling them as canaries? Even though you can pretty much consider Apple's products as being 'G's canaries', I think it's overall much worse. I think, they have been adding to the damage being done to humanity, especially young people, in this insane age.

Finally,
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8zUuTIFW00

[From a book "Steve Jobs" by Walter Isaacson quoting Steve Jobs as having said:
Bill [Gates] is basically unimaginative and has never invented anything, which is why I think he's more comfortable now in phillanthropy than technology... He just shamelessly ripped off other people's ideas."

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Talk about projections!

From the same video, we learn about Steve's interactions with president Obama. His idea was to get 6 or 7 COE's together and talk about how to be more business friendly. That's what he was going to talk about should the appointment ever happened. The guy who allegedly was against war. He was a supporter of President Obama in 2008 and in 2012 although he was upset with the way some of Obama's decisions had been made with business. That's it. How cool.

Isn't he, the maker, a bit detached from the reality and believing in lies in the best case, or lying through his teeth in the worst?

From my point of view, this is simply a pattern of behavior the Theosophical Society uses. They help popularize someone they want in their organization in order to expand their own influence. They did it with Rudolph Steiner and Jiddu Krishnamurti, who both later disavowed the organization. The society seems very good at promoting and attracting aware, highly intelligent people but they can't keep them.

Now they're promoting dead people (and stuff) who have no say in the matter.

That the material was introduced at a Humanities Conference doesn't surprise me since it's all material related to cosmology and anthropology. It wouldn't be too hard to think of ways to mix SJ and Apple products in with "a system of correspondences, hierarchies,and intermediaries."

From the linked book:

As Seymour Ginsburg relates in his preface, his introduction to Gurdjieff coincided with an understanding of esotericism as a form of teaching intended to expand human consciousness for the purposes of discovering who we are, what is our purpose, and what is the nature of reality. As in the famous words of the Emerald Tablet of HermesTrismegistus "As above, so below", esoteric philosophy always seeks to link the microcosm with the macrocosm through a system of correspondences, hierarchies,and intermediaries.

The resultant interaction of cosmology and anthropology leads to a meaningful location of man in the universe and the transmutation of the human soul through the understanding of identity, significance and purpose.
_http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3-xYetDBBqMJ:www.theosophical.org/files/resources/books/Gurdjieff/GUNVEILEDFINALWHOLEBOOK1_3_05d.pdf+&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk

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My sense is that SJ and Apple products are simply symbols of what Amaral intends due to the "unification" theme that's apparent throughout this stuff. There's already a precedent in place if you think of "Oragean Modernism" as a pattern.

According to Gurdjieff, objective art is the only art that has value, and Zora Neale Hurston and other Harlem writers were engaged in the quest for objective art. Orage’s writing groups performed the contradictory functions of disseminating Gurdjieff’s ideas into society with the hope of raising the number of people belonging to the circle of conscious humanity, while at the same time preserving the teachings by placing them in a coded form in widely distributed popular texts. Hurston’s story, F was an attempt both to spread the Gurdjieffian teaching through objective art and to make sure that esoteric ideas would survive the collapse of the present form of civilization.
_http://gurdjieff2013.wordpress.com/tag/sophia-wellbeloved/

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So, Amaral is an editor for Ginsburg's books, including Gurdjieff Unveiled and, in addition, we have the fact that Ginsburg has written Gurdjieff, Blavatsky and the Masters of Wisdom, so we've got Blavatsky woven into the tapestry just as tightly.

To me, the main gripe with the Theosophy connection is how Ginsburg deliberately misrepresents their association with Gurdjieff. Basically the misrepresentation is all about how Gurdjieff owes this huge debt to Blavatsky's Theosophy. During G's time, "Anthroposophy" was a popular word for those teachings - especially during the long period of Steiner's split and Ginsburg doesn't mention that Gurdjieff specifically stated that they want to complicate everything.

Buddy, I appreciate your comment and you may be right about the Theosophy connection. But you miss the main point. And the point is, as it occurred to me, how all the Mac/Apple/iWhatever trend, on the users' side -- I'm not so much concerned about the company here because they are just what they are: corporational producers and sellers -- is in plain opposition to DOing the Work. How it usually involves a choice to close one's eyes to the reality and believe a lie for the sole purpose of feeding one's feeling of "speshialness".

That's what makes the message in the video sound so surrealistic and makes me think of how easily people can fall in that trap without even noticing it. I wonder, how many of Apple products users who think they do the Work have ever given a thought to that contradiction.

Possibility of Being said:

Buddy, I appreciate your comment and you may be right about the Theosophy connection. But you miss the main point. And the point is, as it occurred to me, how all the Mac/Apple/iWhatever trend, on the users' side -- I'm not so much concerned about the company here because they are just what they are: corporational producers and sellers -- is in plain opposition to DOing the Work. How it usually involves a choice to close one's eyes to the reality and believe a lie for the sole purpose of feeding one's feeling of "speshialness".

That's what makes the message in the video sound so surrealistic and makes me think of how easily people can fall in that trap without even noticing it. I wonder, how many of Apple products users who think they do the Work have ever given a thought to that contradiction.

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Well, now that you mention it, this was my primary thought. I just tend not to say anything any more because there is a reason why they are called "Mac Fanatics". It's very much like trying to talk to a neoconservative or a zionist.

But, since the cat is out of the bag so to speak, consider the following:

1. MP3 players existed before the iPod. Nobody wanted one until Apple made it "the thing to have or else you aren't whole/cool/etc."

2. Smartphones existed before the iPhone. Nobody wanted one until Apple made it "the thing to have or else you aren't whole/cool/etc."

3. Furthermore, how many people's lives have actually been honestly improved by owning an MP3 player or a smartphone? Is it supposed to be a good thing that iPods and iPhones basically started the whole schtick where people on subways, busses, trains, and so on sit there and stare aimlessly at their phones/pads/whatevers? Is it supposed to be a good thing that social interaction has been replaced by a bunch of touchscreen-poking zombies who care more about the latest cool app than the fact that the world is going to hell in a handbasket?

4. Did anybody ever consider that people standing in line for 4 days waiting for the latest iGizmo is not only terribly sad, but a rather blatant indicator of how far humanity has fallen in the grand scheme of things? My great-grandparents would have probably died of shock if they had witnessed such a thing.

5. Don't even get me started on Mac computers and how they're better, easier, faster, and so on. Nearly everything you have ever heard about Macs is in fact a lie at worst, and an exaggeration at best. In short, the reason people want Macs is due to genius (evil) marketing. A Mac is a social status symbol. Any other computer with any other operating system is simply that: a computer, a tool. Oh, and they cost WAAAAAAAY too much money for what you get. And that's part of the equation: When you pay too much money for something that you are lying to yourself about, you tend to justify it in the most bizarre, nonsensical, and emotional ways possible. This is the way human psychology works, and Jobs knew it. That is what marketing is based on (reference Edward Bernays).

So, put this all together, compare with the lies and manipulation in the political arena, "global warming", and just about everything else in this world, and what do you have?

What you have is something that doesn't even remotely approach The Work as Gurdjieff described it. And as for the guy that made the video, say what? So if 1 in 100 people had perfect pitch or whatever, this would revolutionize the human race itself? I mean, WHAT?! Fireballs are raining down on the planet, we're on the verge of an ice age, the economy is teetering on the brink (if not already crashed in some places), and this guy thinks getting people to sing well will help. Really? Somehow, I don't that's all there is to it.

Anyway, Steve Jobs wasn't some kind of genius or savior. He was a sales and marketing guy. He didn't invent anything. But as far as I can see, it's not even about any of that. It's about the net overall effect, the reinforcing of lies = truth, black = white in the minds of the masses.

It's not pretty.

Interesting article about Steve Jobs--about a new book by his ex-lover and mother of his child.

_http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478339/Steve-Jobs-ex-lovers-book-reveals-Apple-founder.html?ICO=most_read_module

In the excoriating account she recalls how Jobs aggressively denied paternity of their daughter, Lisa; how he involved attorneys to rubbish her reputation and even claimed infertility, until a DNA test in 1980 forced him to accept the truth.

Even then he publicly denigrated the mother of his child, telling an interviewer for Time magazine in 1983 that, ’28 per cent of the male population in America could be the father.’ At the time he was paying a paltry $500 a month in child support, while Chrisann struggled to raise Lisa on welfare.

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Yeah...great guy. (sarcasm)

There are many other tidbits about his pathological character and how his relationship with Lisa evolved. The book is probably an interesting read for anyone who wanted to know about the 'real' Steve Jobs from a personal perspective.

Mr. Scott said:

Possibility of Being said:

Buddy, I appreciate your comment and you may be right about the Theosophy connection. But you miss the main point. And the point is, as it occurred to me, how all the Mac/Apple/iWhatever trend, on the users' side -- I'm not so much concerned about the company here because they are just what they are: corporational producers and sellers -- is in plain opposition to DOing the Work. How it usually involves a choice to close one's eyes to the reality and believe a lie for the sole purpose of feeding one's feeling of "speshialness".

That's what makes the message in the video sound so surrealistic and makes me think of how easily people can fall in that trap without even noticing it. I wonder, how many of Apple products users who think they do the Work have ever given a thought to that contradiction.

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Well, now that you mention it, this was my primary thought. I just tend not to say anything any more because there is a reason why they are called "Mac Fanatics". It's very much like trying to talk to a neoconservative or a zionist.

But, since the cat is out of the bag so to speak, consider the following:

1. MP3 players existed before the iPod. Nobody wanted one until Apple made it "the thing to have or else you aren't whole/cool/etc."

2. Smartphones existed before the iPhone. Nobody wanted one until Apple made it "the thing to have or else you aren't whole/cool/etc."

3. Furthermore, how many people's lives have actually been honestly improved by owning an MP3 player or a smartphone? Is it supposed to be a good thing that iPods and iPhones basically started the whole schtick where people on subways, busses, trains, and so on sit there and stare aimlessly at their phones/pads/whatevers? Is it supposed to be a good thing that social interaction has been replaced by a bunch of touchscreen-poking zombies who care more about the latest cool app than the fact that the world is going to hell in a handbasket?

4. Did anybody ever consider that people standing in line for 4 days waiting for the latest iGizmo is not only terribly sad, but a rather blatant indicator of how far humanity has fallen in the grand scheme of things? My great-grandparents would have probably died of shock if they had witnessed such a thing.

5. Don't even get me started on Mac computers and how they're better, easier, faster, and so on. Nearly everything you have ever heard about Macs is in fact a lie at worst, and an exaggeration at best. In short, the reason people want Macs is due to genius (evil) marketing. A Mac is a social status symbol. Any other computer with any other operating system is simply that: a computer, a tool. Oh, and they cost WAAAAAAAY too much money for what you get. And that's part of the equation: When you pay too much money for something that you are lying to yourself about, you tend to justify it in the most bizarre, nonsensical, and emotional ways possible. This is the way human psychology works, and Jobs knew it. That is what marketing is based on (reference Edward Bernays).

So, put this all together, compare with the lies and manipulation in the political arena, "global warming", and just about everything else in this world, and what do you have?

What you have is something that doesn't even remotely approach The Work as Gurdjieff described it. And as for the guy that made the video, say what? So if 1 in 100 people had perfect pitch or whatever, this would revolutionize the human race itself? I mean, WHAT?! Fireballs are raining down on the planet, we're on the verge of an ice age, the economy is teetering on the brink (if not already crashed in some places), and this guy thinks getting people to sing well will help. Really? Somehow, I don't that's all there is to it.

Anyway, Steve Jobs wasn't some kind of genius or savior. He was a sales and marketing guy. He didn't invent anything. But as far as I can see, it's not even about any of that. It's about the net overall effect, the reinforcing of lies = truth, black = white in the minds of the masses.

It's not pretty.

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Thanks for the food for thought Mr. Scott and Possibility of Being. It's amazing to think of the range of all strategies that deploy large corporations (seem like military strategies). Not think they're really creative, but have so much impact and repetition in the media that people end up buying the "be special", that idea so luxurious and ephemeral, for stand out in the eyes of the other slaves.

There was a time where Apple computers/Macs had a slight advantage in certain fields. One was digital imaging (and offset printing in general). The only reason that this advantage existed is that at the point of output for printing photos, for example, while "RIPing" (Raster Image Processing) or any other step of output for print, most of the "experts" who took care of any problems during outputting were "Mac experts." So in the rare (becoming rarer as technology advanced and firms bought faster and more powerful equipment) instances where a job caught a snag at the output stage of commercial printing, the problem tended to be found and fixed faster if the job was submitted as Mac files from everyone / anyone working on it before the output stage.

In the earlier days (really more the middle part of digital imaging history), it was actually hard to find a place that used/accepted PC/Windows files. Because of this it was still an advantage in that field to use Macs, and a few other advantages came as "fringe benefits"/extras, such as a few features in Adobe Photoshop only being available in the Mac OS version. Some of those features were convenient/handy, or saved time, or gave an extra reassurance to check if critical details in photo prepping were finished correctly, etc. The whole thing when there were still some advantages to be on a Mac platform that really MADE it an advantage was similar to Microsoft's software monopoly approach on a smaller scale / specialty niche market using different methods of monopolizing than Microsoft. It was more that people in the field didn't have that much of a free choice because there was already a "cult-like" group that insisted on using the Mac platform in the field upon whom many others' jobs depended on to run smoothly to completion. And as I said during a certain period, it was actually hard to find a way to work around being on a Mac platform.

It's really silly for "Mac Fanatics" to continue their insistence on Macs being better than PC's now since they started using the same Intel Processors, etc. It's just an overpriced PC with a different "packaging" and Operating System. Plus it seems Apple as a whole is much more concentrated on selling these mass market i-gizmos than desktop computers and "creative software solutions" such as Final Cut Pro video editing. It seems they just let any competitive edge they may have had in a certain price range for that specialty niche slide away to focus on selling as many i-gizmos to as many people as possible in the last few years.

The whole argument about who came up with the "windows" style interface is another bunch of bunk. The idea for that kind of interface came from Xerox (if I remember correctly) and was marketed earlier and more effectively by Apple as apposed to Microsoft's DOS in the early days of "Personal Computers." In other words, neither invented this type of user interface as far as I know. And Apple used "hardball" methods just as much as Microsoft, in that they forced users of their Operating System to use their hardware only.

In terms of Jobs' pathological traits / lack of responsibility, I think there's been a good amount of information about that and it shouldn't really be that surprising, taking into account that he was an executive of a large corporation. So there's a whole lot of data that Steve Jobs was just a marketing "guru" that was pretty much in it for himself for pretty much everything. Which makes any claims about what Steve Jobs and Apple were/are really about having anything to do with Gurdjieff and his aims that much more ridiculous.

Possibility of Being said:

...you miss the main point. And the point is, [...] how all the Mac/Apple/iWhatever trend, [...] is in plain opposition to DOing the Work. How it usually involves a choice to close one's eyes to the reality and believe a lie for the sole purpose of feeding one's feeling of "speshialness".

[...]

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Well, FWIW, I find this statement of 'main point' interesting, yet simultaneously disheartening. You introduce the video by its title and provide some links to expand on the author's identity, intent or whatever, indicating to me a desire to expand the picture to see what might be seen. I viewed that as a natural way to try and attain ever more clarity on any issue.

I didn't see any "yes/no" constraint with respect to the topic title or opening question, so rather than duplicating what you provided, I looked at the texts you linked and made some potential connections that might help develop a big picture wherein we might understand the video presentation as playing a part in both a strategic and tactical approach to some as yet potentially unidentified goal. A potential connection to Theosophy was just all I was noticing so far and there's more that can be seen and inferred.

After reading your response to me, I actually watched all four of those videos to learn more, or to learn what I could, but then, after reading the subsequent replies, I see the wanted or preferred view, and I think I'm more cognizant now of why I seem to have so little to offer.

Sorry if I made you feel shut down in your response Buddy. There was nothing wrong with you trying to look into what or who might be behind such an idea. I was just so outraged that anyone would promote the idea of Apple=Fourth Way that I expected all the responses to be like or/and to see a few sacred cows having been challenged. ;)

I believe you. Difference in perception, I suppose.

I've never owned an Apple product but I find their hardware and software interface designs aesthetically pleasing. Personally, I group all the clickey-clickey interfaces together and see no benefit except to sell computer technology, though something can be said about competition that can drive prices down on hardware components.

I think the only reason Apple even got a foothold in the market was due to their Operating System being built on a Unix-type kernel. Even so, clickey-clickey! I prefer Unix/Linux bash command-line interfaces. It's in the rhythm, man!

As for my feelings about any Forth-way connections in that presentation, tenuous or not, the only thing I really found interesting is the correspondence between what G (speaking through Beelzebub) said to Hassein at the end of Beelzebub's Tales and what Jobs said at that Stanford Commencement in 2005 - both talking about the sensation and cognizance of being dead soon. Sobering thoughts.

I'm completely agree with you all about the apple corporation and their creator and now a technological idol for many ,many people ,I'm sorry for the sarcasm but really ,i completely agree with Mr.Scott s.j. wasn't a genius or a creator he was a guy who was very good at marketing,i personally didn't own an apple product and sincerely will try to stay on this course ,first of all because this corporation is a greedy and manipulating one ,worst than others and like many techno corporations are using slave labour from China,Taiwan so basically they assemble they products at a low cost in a foreign country and then are selling at a exaggerated high price this way getting high, very high profits.Indeed that guy who wants to promote this distorted idea of "uniting" the work of G. with such an awfully and evil corporation like apple indeed it's nothing but wishful thinking from his part (deliberate or not it doesn't matter) and of course distortion of G's work. If s.j. did bring some changes in this reality ,those changes are of STS nature(of course this is only my opinion).Sorry it seems i just repeated all that it was already said by all above.