NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

I think that FOTCM in the US is going to look into purchasing the professional model to make it available for all members who can travel to NC and spend a few days ever so often. If anybody wants to donate to this project, please do! We can save a LOT of money this way, I think.
 
Laura said:
I think that FOTCM in the US is going to look into purchasing the professional model to make it available for all members who can travel to NC and spend a few days ever so often. If anybody wants to donate to this project, please do! We can save a LOT of money this way, I think.

I'll gladly donate for the US-FOTCM's EEG.
 
Just caught up with this thread this morning--thanks to all for the research and comments. It sounds like it would benefit my thinking; even though I am relatively functional right now there is definitely room to improve. In the past I have done cognitive behavioral therapy on and off, EMDR (which this reminds me of) Reevaluation Co-counseling, EE yoga etc., but I have had some pretty traumatizing events in my lifetime which I think are still influencing my thinking negatively, especially in the areas of procrastination and eating to medicate my emotions.

So I decided to see if there was a practitioner near enough and quite serendipitously found an advance practitioner of NeurOptimal brain training less than a half hour from my home. So we emailed and I am
meeting her tonight, and if her vibe is good and the costs reasonable I will give it a test drive and report back here with the results.

She is Kathy Stockton, found on the web page https://neuroptimal.com
 
shellycheval said:
So I decided to see if there was a practitioner near enough and quite serendipitously found an advance practitioner of NeurOptimal brain training less than a half hour from my home. So we emailed and I am
meeting her tonight, and if her vibe is good and the costs reasonable I will give it a test drive and report back here with the results.

She is Kathy Stockton, found on the web page https://neuroptimal.com

I look forward to your report. It's been almost a week since I did the first session and the results sort of "grow on" you and you realize them as days pass. It has definitely been very beneficial just doing it the one time; I'm looking forward to the second session.
 
Eärwen said:
Laura said:
I think that FOTCM in the US is going to look into purchasing the professional model to make it available for all members who can travel to NC and spend a few days ever so often. If anybody wants to donate to this project, please do! We can save a LOT of money this way, I think.

I'll gladly donate for the US-FOTCM's EEG.

Do we add a reference that the donation is for this device?
 
Ant22 said:
Eärwen said:
Laura said:
I think that FOTCM in the US is going to look into purchasing the professional model to make it available for all members who can travel to NC and spend a few days ever so often. If anybody wants to donate to this project, please do! We can save a LOT of money this way, I think.

I'll gladly donate for the US-FOTCM's EEG.

Do we add a reference that the donation is for this device?

You can if you want to, but it's not necessary as we'll figure it out!
 
Laura said:
Ant22 said:
Eärwen said:
Laura said:
I think that FOTCM in the US is going to look into purchasing the professional model to make it available for all members who can travel to NC and spend a few days ever so often. If anybody wants to donate to this project, please do! We can save a LOT of money this way, I think.

I'll gladly donate for the US-FOTCM's EEG.

Do we add a reference that the donation is for this device?

You can if you want to, but it's not necessary as we'll figure it out!

Small donation sent this morning via Pay-Pal
 
He said openly that he will never reveal the mathematics behind this device, but if you want to undertand more about basic philosophy of his approach, then you can watch this webinar by Dr. Val Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfPu8wDSzgk

Also, this interview with him is the most interesting of the three that I listened: http://www.viaway.com/view/25339094/valdeanebrownonnonlineardynamicalhealing

And here you can see the demonstration of the Neuroptimal training: https://vimeo.com/35766513

It is mentioned that some people even had to lower their medications after some period, one of them was thyroid hormone.
 
I had my second session today and thought I would record what I noticed while it is fresh in my mind.

First, over the last two or three days I have had some small, short-lasting headaches that I wondered if they were related to the previous effects sort of "running down". Dunno. But I really haven't had much in the way of headaches for awhile now - several years.

I picked music this time instead of a video. It was Chopin and about half way through I was reminded of the fact that not everything Chopin composed was great music. I think I'll take my own music next time.

Anyway, I could hear a lot of the "skips" this time that I wasn't hearing last time; maybe because I was using headphones this time. They came in clusters and there was more at the beginning than towards the end of the session.

About 2/3 way through the session, my jaw started feeling very stiff almost like tetany. It didn't actually get uncomfortable, but it was definitely there. Then it went away.

When we started back home, after we had been on the road about ten minutes, I started to turn my head to the right to look out the window and it wouldn't turn; it had a painful catch in it. So, I turned it back to the left, and then again to the right and when I did, I got a big crunch like when the chiropractor adjusts it. It sort of "freed" itself and then, turned smoothly. It was weird; never had anything like that. I told Chu about it and she said "maybe it was a somatic release". Well, yeah, quite possibly. The book "Healing Developmental Trauma" talks about how diaphragms in the body tighten up and compress as a result of trauma and he mentions specifically diaphragm like structures in the knees and at the base of the skull as well as the abdominal diaphragm. It's very possible that something like that could have been behind a lot of my neck problems over the years though I haven't had any issues with it lately!

So, if it was in fact a somatic release, I guess that could happen for others.

Right now, I don't feel anything particular, but then, I didn't feel any different after the first session either. It was only over a period of hours and then days that subtle, positive changes were noted. We'll see how I feel tomorrow.
 
Laura said:
It was only over a period of hours and then days that subtle, positive changes were noted. We'll see how I feel tomorrow.

That is very interesting. I'm looking forward to trying NeurOptimal. It really does sound like a more natural approach which the brain uses at its own timing without any forced state.

From my part, I had my 4th session today of targeted NF and I thought I would report.

So far, I've trained two specific sites, CZ (Central midline) and PZ (posterior midline) at SMR (Sensory Motor Rhythm) in CZ and at lower frequencies in PZ.

SMR at CZ makes me feel very aware and calm and I have done that consistently on each session only with a visual screen.

I have trained PZ with the visual screen only once, on my second session. That was the most profound effect I felt. I felt very sharp, aware, awake and above all, calm. As far as physical effects, I noticed seeing light before going to sleep and while awake for the first few days after that.

According to the data and my survival strategy, here is where I'm most stuck: processing sensory information correctly at the brain stem/preverbal stage. PZ is used as a broad approximation. I trained PZ with my eyes closed during my third session and I didn't receive good feedback. Although I spent some time doing SMR at CZ before, I just went in hyper-vigilance with my eyes closed. It is as if I'm opening a thousand eyes in the back of my brain to screen the entire environment. I can literally hear people in the next room and in the room itself before the music playing out.

After voicing my concern of not wanting to work with my eyes closed at PZ, I spent my entire 4th session today with the visual screen doing SMR at CZ. That went extremely well. I felt not only calm, but less dissociative and more accepting. After the session, I nearly lost my balance a couple of times but quickly regained stability. The NF literature does speak of "cerebellar hiccups" after NF. I guess it is sort of like a "re-balancing".

I noticed I'm craving less food and feel also slightly more aware of my body when I'm doing physical activities. Today my mother wrote me a long letter and to my relief, there were no reactive feelings in me. I was genuinely happy to hear from her.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't recommend targeted NF as the first option due to all the caveats and potential troubleshooting.

I read Sebern Fisher's book on "Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma" (minus the specific case studies of the final chapter) and even though it is highly insightful, the book did bring more concerns for me about targeted protocols and how difficult it is to determine what works for each person or not. Fisher is practically not recommending anyone with less than 10 years of clinical training to do targeted neurofeedback on patients. She doesn't advocate the initial QEEG for the most part, unless it is strictly necessary (e.g. suspicion of a subclinical seizure). She relies more on patient's history and clinical symptoms.

My current therapist said that I'm only going to do training at CZ and PZ to address hyperarousal because those are the safest in his view. Anyhow, after reading more about it, I don't know if I would consent to do any specific targeted work in the rest of my brain, unless it is a holistic approach as NeurOptimal claims to do. CZ and SMR is pretty standard in the NF research. This is what even breathing exercises do, increase SMR in the brain. And according to research quoted by Sebern Fisher, working at PZ usually quiets anxiety without risking reactivity and "frees up" potential in the rest of the brain. But Sebern Fisher also addresses the state of hyper-vigilance with your eyes closed at subcortical regions which can potentially create troubleshooting:

"Ed Hamblin elaborated on the issue of alpha abnormalities in developmental trauma: "Not only do I see a lack of typical eyes-closed alpha [amplitude increase] [the largest state change in the waking EEG], but with the [developmental trauma] population we see alpha amplitude very often drop when the eyes are closed. It happens so often we've considered it as a possible marker variable" (personal communication, December 10, 2012). Having lost the use of their primary sense to warn them of inevitable and imminent danger, these patients typically become hyperfocused to pick up other clues from the environment, mostly through sound. As a result, I don't typically introduce deep state braining until my patient trusts me and the treatment surround enough to be able to comfortably close her eyes.

After studying more about it and understanding where I'm coming from and what is going on in my brain, I do want to continue to work targeted SMR at CZ and lower frequencies at PZ until I can arrange an appointment with the NeurOptimal technique. As long as I feel that I'm freeing up stuck up energy (Bottom-Up approach) safely and in a non re-traumatizing way, I'll continue. I don't recall such a respite in my life like I'm doing right now. I'm having some recapitulating moments which are naturally accompanied by sadness. But I don't see that as a setback.

Still, I wouldn't have gone with the targeted NF approach if I had gone first with the NeurOptimal approach to do work in a holistic, more non-lineal and safe approach.

My 2 cents.
 
I noticed the drop in food cravings too, especially for sweets. Hmmm... I read an article the other day that food cravings come from the brain so maybe that's a big key?
 
Laura said:
I noticed the drop in food cravings too, especially for sweets. Hmmm... I read an article the other day that food cravings come from the brain so maybe that's a big key?

Same here, especially carbs. Even through PMS when I crave carbs, I felt completely neutral if I had them or not.
 
Laura said:
So, if it was in fact a somatic release, I guess that could happen for others.

Interesting, I think I had something similar, but during the process.

So I took the plunge, made an appointment, and yesterday I had my first experience of neurofeedback via Neuroptimal.

The process itself was relaxing. I chose to watch a movie (Pinocchio) for about half an hour, and mostly it went smoothly, nothing out of the ordinary. Until one moment towards the end where the scene appeared slower. At that moment I felt something that I thought of as “a wave in my brain”, just because I don’t have better terminology to describe it. So first the movie slowed down, immediately after I felt the “wave” and immediately after that I felt something deep inside the top of my nose – where the brows would meet – open up and I could breathe better. I don’t know how else to describe it, but there it is, and it all took place in just a moment. That was the only thing I noticed during the treatment. I didn’t notice before that I was not breathing well, or that my nose was blocked or anything like that, all was normal in the nose/breathing area, as I experience them when I am healthy. And I still feel this difference today, in how I inhale especially. Something opened up, it is still open, and I can inhale better.

After the session I was relaxed, but as the day progressed I felt more and more tired. I didn’t have time to rest until bed time though, and at that point, I was exhausted. I fell asleep around 10 pm, basically as soon as I closed the book I was reading (which is rare for me). External noises woke me up at 4, and again at 6 am, but I went back to sleep both times immediately (again, rare for me) and didn’t wake up until my cat sounded the alarm at 9 am!

Did neurofeedback have anything to do with my tiredness and how I slept last night? I don’t know. It was a busy and tiring day in general. Despite (or because of?) how much I slept last night, I am still feeling tired and sleepy today too. So we will see. I made another appointment for next week. Now I am more curious than before even, because that nose-opening thing was totally unexpected, even if helpful in the end. Plus I want to finish watching Pinocchio.

Gaby said:
Laura said:
I noticed the drop in food cravings too, especially for sweets. Hmmm... I read an article the other day that food cravings come from the brain so maybe that's a big key?

Same here, especially carbs. Even through PMS when I crave carbs, I felt completely neutral if I had them or not.

I had the opposite experience yesterday. I ate more food last night and more goodies afterwards than I do normally.
 
‌Interesting, Alana! (The lady you are seeing too, told me that only very rarely, she hears of people being extra tired or having headaches the day after a session, so either it's that, or it is unrelated? No idea.)

Here's my update: After the first session last week, the first 5 days I noticed a marked difference in how I was able to feel like I could cope with more than usual. From little things to emotional issues. Reading a book like Healing from Developmental Trauma and as hard a read as it is, I felt like I could do it in a more detached manner, with the curiosity the author describes. My stress&anxiety levels went down for sure.

BUT, on day 6 and until yesterday, I felt like the positive effects had began to go away. I had more floating anxiety, pessimistic thoughts, more focus on the past/regrets, etc. I put it down to it being a specific time of the month, but it felt a bit frustrating. I was getting used to the good effects! :lol:

I asked the NF lady, and she said that that is fairly common, depending on the issues to work on and on the person (e.g. many autistic children have a really good day after the sessions, but revert back quickly on the second day). Others start seeing more long lasting effects, and they don't need many sessions, or not too frequently. So, if others happen to notice something similar, I guess it may be an indicator of how well we are doing, what frequency of treatments we should ideally do, etc. I thought it was interesting, and I may be a bit 'dense' if it lasted 5 days, unless it was not related. I'll pay attention this week too.

Anyway, I wasn't feeling too well before going in yesterday. But a few minutes after it started, I began to feel calmer. I even fell asleep for the last 5 minutes. I tried the music this time, and there was no difference from the movie. The clicking sounds were as frequent as the first time, and also very brief. I tried to 'cheat' to see what happened, and either focus on something super positive or something negative, but that didn't affect the pauses at all. So, the lady was right, I think. No matter what your mental state is like, or whether the movie you are watching is upsetting or not, it doesn't really have much to do with the feedback that is going on based on the actual common brain wave patterns.

Today I feel the positive changes again! I woke up relaxed, which is a rare thing. I had a crazy day, and yet, took each task at a time, not worrying even when there were unforeseen or annoying setbacks, and just kept going, even allowing myself some short breaks. This is great.
 
I think the below testimony is really interesting, particularly in regard to negative effects being brought up. This case is more extreme than any of the negative effects mentioned so far, but the extreme provides some insight, I think.

Foxx said:
Has anyone experienced any negative side effects from NeurOptimal Neurofeedback? I suffer from insomnia, severe ADHD with tics/outbursts, headaches, borderline Bi-polar disorder and overall anxiety and depression. I had found an incredible deal through a Groupon (I offered to pay in house to get 20 sessions for 445.00 here in Colorado). I was so hyped up after reading the reviews and overall positive affirmations of NO. Well, I'm on my 10th session and the only positive benefit I noticed is I sleep better when I do it. However, I have noticed the littlest thing sets me off now and I have literally no threshold for stress (I had very little to begin with). I have increased headaches since beginning NeurOptimal, but worse yet, I literally go into rages at my children daily and I'm actually scaring myself at this point. I had wanted my son (who is also severe ADHD) to do some sessions since the price was amazing at 25.00 a session, but now he said it seems I've become worse and he doesn't want to do any Neuroptimal Neurofeedback training as it scares him that he will ultimately be worse if it does to him what it might be doing to me?!?!?!

I am so confused and I don't understand this at all!?! I've only read of people having either positive results or no results with Neuroptimal since it supposedly trains the brain in real time. However, I have never read about someone having increased daily anxiety, anger and outbursts of rage AFTER doing NeurOptimal.

I am going to go by faith and finish my 20 sessions (10 more), but if anyone has any information I would appreciate it. I am just so upset about this and frankly I cannot beleive this is even happening! I'm praying and hoping positive shifts start happening soon!
...
So, I have to give an update about my experience with Neuroptimal. I was really worried since I feared I was getting worse, but I ended up talking to an energy practitioner who also has a NO machine and she told me it's actually somewhat normal what I was experiencing, especially if I had any major trauma from my past (which I did with my sister committing suicide 5 years ago amongst other things). She said I needed to try and release the pain truly forgive and let go what NO was bringing up to the surface. So, for the next 20 sessions (I did a total of 30 sessions for $700-a total steal) I combined Dr. Alex Loyd's Healing Code and Beyond Willpower Energy Medicine Methods with the Neuroptimal and all I know is it must have supercharged it because this has changed me as a person.

For starters, I no longer have much anxiety at ALL! I don't get mad quickly and have a thousand times more patience than I had before with my kids. Things now just roll off of me and I don't take things so personally (I no longer have a victim mentality), I can keep my house clean pretty much effortlessly, whereas before it was an exhausting production to even try and get started on tasks. I no longer procrastinate to the degree (really bad prior) I did before and I just don't put things off like I used to, but instead just get them done without stress. My food cravings have diminished dratstically and I'm able to actually sit still and feel things out regarding eating something that doesn't agree with me and stop eating it without anxiety, vs. compulsively putting bad unhealthy things in my mouth because of stress and not even being aware of it.

Also, a HUUUUGE thing for me, is that I not only sleep better, but this has turned me into a morning person effortlessly. I was literally ALWAYS a night owl and dreaded mornings my entire life! It feels absolutely AMAZING to not only be able to get up at 5/6 am, but also to actually be in a good mood and energetically excited for the day! I used to never mentally wake up until about 10am, even if I physically had to get up at 7. This alone is an absolute miracle in my life!!!

It seems to suggest that both the 'positive' and 'negative' effects from doing NO, are probably each beneficial in their own way. Seems in some cases NO can amplify certain issues, or maybe brings such issues to the surface where they need to be processed.
 

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