Historical Events Database - History
- Thread starter Laura
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Re: Historical Events Database
Here are the relevant dates in the time period of Halley sightings, from my previous posts. I think we can consider these fairly absolute, since they're from dendrochronology and ice cores. (DC = dendrochronology, A = ammonium spike, AN = ammonium/nitrate spike)
42-46 BC (DC)
536-547 AD (DC)
539 AD (A)
687-698 AD (DC)
899-903 AD (DC)
1014 AD (A)
1332-1336 AD (DC)
1348-1360 AD (DC)
1427 AD (AN)
1458-1474 AD (DC)
1490 AD (A)
The bold items match up with projected times of when Halley should have been sighted: 543, 695, 1455. The 1455 date is relatively recent enough that, based on Halley data, there shouldn't be too much controversy about its chronology. But the other two dates (543 and 695) might prove handy markers. There should be both Halley sightings and cataclysms of some sort during both times.
I've got a chronology fantasy: inputting every historical record into a giant diagram, cross-dating all of them based on common ties. Kind of like what dendrochronologists do. They have various discrete chronologies (tree samples), and then they match them up with each other based on ratios of ring widths. By matching them up this way, they can get a long chronology. Imagine if this was done with every historical source available. We'd be able to see exactly how they all match up, each link between histories of different regions, etc. Unfortunately, this would require world-wide cooperation among historians. I can dream, though!
Laura said:
Here are the relevant dates in the time period of Halley sightings, from my previous posts. I think we can consider these fairly absolute, since they're from dendrochronology and ice cores. (DC = dendrochronology, A = ammonium spike, AN = ammonium/nitrate spike)
42-46 BC (DC)
536-547 AD (DC)
539 AD (A)
687-698 AD (DC)
899-903 AD (DC)
1014 AD (A)
1332-1336 AD (DC)
1348-1360 AD (DC)
1427 AD (AN)
1458-1474 AD (DC)
1490 AD (A)
The bold items match up with projected times of when Halley should have been sighted: 543, 695, 1455. The 1455 date is relatively recent enough that, based on Halley data, there shouldn't be too much controversy about its chronology. But the other two dates (543 and 695) might prove handy markers. There should be both Halley sightings and cataclysms of some sort during both times.
I've got a chronology fantasy: inputting every historical record into a giant diagram, cross-dating all of them based on common ties. Kind of like what dendrochronologists do. They have various discrete chronologies (tree samples), and then they match them up with each other based on ratios of ring widths. By matching them up this way, they can get a long chronology. Imagine if this was done with every historical source available. We'd be able to see exactly how they all match up, each link between histories of different regions, etc. Unfortunately, this would require world-wide cooperation among historians. I can dream, though!
Re: Historical Events Database
I guess then, it looks like we have to give up any idea that Gregory's environmental events are his at all. And that brings us back to the big truncation and gap in the Eastern Chronicles and the sudden exact filling of the gap with such events from Gregory's chronicle and that's where Walter Goffart didn't want to go.
There MAY have been some kind of environmental comments in GoT, but of a more ordinary variety and they were supplemented by the extraordinary events by a later hand. But not too much later. That doesn't mean that there weren't Franks and Lombards and all, and some Imperial activity for a period. But in the end, even Constantinople was reduced to a pathetic excuse for an emperor holed up in his walled city hanging onto the rags and tatters of his Imperialness... but it was probably all over in the West between 536 and 547.
One thing about this is, however, at least by searching for and extracting these various texts, we have something of a very good description of what happened and what can happen again.
Well, we are going to be able to do all kinds of fancy things with this database thanks to Data and his crafty programming abilities - if we pay attention and get the data in there with proper care and attention to detail. And if we do, then it might inspire others.
Approaching Infinity said:
I guess then, it looks like we have to give up any idea that Gregory's environmental events are his at all. And that brings us back to the big truncation and gap in the Eastern Chronicles and the sudden exact filling of the gap with such events from Gregory's chronicle and that's where Walter Goffart didn't want to go.
There MAY have been some kind of environmental comments in GoT, but of a more ordinary variety and they were supplemented by the extraordinary events by a later hand. But not too much later. That doesn't mean that there weren't Franks and Lombards and all, and some Imperial activity for a period. But in the end, even Constantinople was reduced to a pathetic excuse for an emperor holed up in his walled city hanging onto the rags and tatters of his Imperialness... but it was probably all over in the West between 536 and 547.
One thing about this is, however, at least by searching for and extracting these various texts, we have something of a very good description of what happened and what can happen again.
Approaching Infinity said:
Well, we are going to be able to do all kinds of fancy things with this database thanks to Data and his crafty programming abilities - if we pay attention and get the data in there with proper care and attention to detail. And if we do, then it might inspire others.
Palinurus
The Living Force
Re: Historical Events Database
@DATA: Data, I'm trying for the first time to fill in a new event entry form and noticed a pop up window over the location box that I cannot get to disappear again. Most of the location box cannot be accessed for further notations while it's still there. Do you have a solution for this problem or a hint on how to proceed?
@DATA: Data, I'm trying for the first time to fill in a new event entry form and noticed a pop up window over the location box that I cannot get to disappear again. Most of the location box cannot be accessed for further notations while it's still there. Do you have a solution for this problem or a hint on how to proceed?
Palinurus
The Living Force
Re: Historical Events Database
Thank you, Dirgni, for your prompt reaction. I'll try that next time.
As I now have completed my first entry into the database, I certainly would appreciate that somebody took a good look at it to ascertain whether all is well with it.
The entry is based on this quote from Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus (37 - ca. 100 AD):
It reappears in his Jewish Antiquities like this:
One of my problems was that my Kindle Edition doesn't have page numbers but rather imprecise so called location numbers which I left out. Also, the year of death of Josephus is uncertain so I used ± 100 AD which obviously didn't came through. The quake area had to be inferred from contextual evidence as it is not expressly stated. I haven't yet made a separate event entry based on the Jewish Antiquities quote as I am now reading Wars of the Jews which is the earlier text while the other later source will be combed through afterwards later on. Finally, I didn't file any keywords.
While searching for modern day publications about this earthquake, I managed to find at least four PDF files with interesting data but didn't mention any of them in the database entry form as they are not from the original period.
Comments, please.
Dirgni said:
Thank you, Dirgni, for your prompt reaction. I'll try that next time.
As I now have completed my first entry into the database, I certainly would appreciate that somebody took a good look at it to ascertain whether all is well with it.
The entry is based on this quote from Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus (37 - ca. 100 AD):
Wars of the Jews said:
It reappears in his Jewish Antiquities like this:
Jewish Antiquities said:
One of my problems was that my Kindle Edition doesn't have page numbers but rather imprecise so called location numbers which I left out. Also, the year of death of Josephus is uncertain so I used ± 100 AD which obviously didn't came through. The quake area had to be inferred from contextual evidence as it is not expressly stated. I haven't yet made a separate event entry based on the Jewish Antiquities quote as I am now reading Wars of the Jews which is the earlier text while the other later source will be combed through afterwards later on. Finally, I didn't file any keywords.
While searching for modern day publications about this earthquake, I managed to find at least four PDF files with interesting data but didn't mention any of them in the database entry form as they are not from the original period.
Comments, please.
Re: Historical Events Database
Palinurus, since you had two quoted texts about the same event, I put them both in the "Quote" box, leaving the note in the notes box about the Loeb edition in the notes box. You can look and see what I mean.
You had "30" in the number killed instead of 30,000, but since there is dispute about that number between the two texts, I just removed it. Nobody knows whether it was 10K or 30K so leave it blank.
Having done that, I just put the two reference "Volumes/Chapters" in the Volumes field and put "derived from" as "Loeb Edition".
I put the second number in the "floruit" since you only had 37 in "from" so I put 100 in "to".
Finally, I put "Battle of Actium" in the keywords since that is actually the most important thing about the entry.
Palinurus, since you had two quoted texts about the same event, I put them both in the "Quote" box, leaving the note in the notes box about the Loeb edition in the notes box. You can look and see what I mean.
You had "30" in the number killed instead of 30,000, but since there is dispute about that number between the two texts, I just removed it. Nobody knows whether it was 10K or 30K so leave it blank.
Having done that, I just put the two reference "Volumes/Chapters" in the Volumes field and put "derived from" as "Loeb Edition".
I put the second number in the "floruit" since you only had 37 in "from" so I put 100 in "to".
Finally, I put "Battle of Actium" in the keywords since that is actually the most important thing about the entry.
Re: Historical Events Database
Zadig, entry 1021 has in the notes section:
That should be a separate entry and then the note can refer to the Chinese observation entry number. While we think that these entries may be the same, with the chronology issues we are trying to solve, it is important to keep the Chinese comet entries separate so we can pull out a graph of them separately to compare to graphs of other comet observations and possibly events.
This is the same reason that even when we are sure that a secondary text is describing a certain event, even if we reference it in our notes, we give it a separate entry. At some point, we'll extract a graph based on EACH CHRONICLER and compare them one to the other. We can't do that if they don't have their own entries.
Also, on your entry 1021, I have corrected the source field so that it is possible for a reader/researcher to more easily find your text. Please take a look at it to see. If you have other entries from this book, correct the source fields in the same way.
Zadig, entry 1021 has in the notes section:
That should be a separate entry and then the note can refer to the Chinese observation entry number. While we think that these entries may be the same, with the chronology issues we are trying to solve, it is important to keep the Chinese comet entries separate so we can pull out a graph of them separately to compare to graphs of other comet observations and possibly events.
This is the same reason that even when we are sure that a secondary text is describing a certain event, even if we reference it in our notes, we give it a separate entry. At some point, we'll extract a graph based on EACH CHRONICLER and compare them one to the other. We can't do that if they don't have their own entries.
Also, on your entry 1021, I have corrected the source field so that it is possible for a reader/researcher to more easily find your text. Please take a look at it to see. If you have other entries from this book, correct the source fields in the same way.
Re: Historical Events Database
I see different types of categories of entries.
1. Events counting back from 'now' (relatively objective / fix):
- tree rings - dendrochronology
- ice cores
2. Regular cyclic events calculated back from 'now' (relatively objective / fix):
- cyclic comets e.g. Halley or others
3. Written history (subjective / potential unreliable or nonexistent / flexible)
- quotes with date
- quotes without date
We could use entries type 1. and entries type 2. to calibrate entries type 3. For example there could be a theory that years 580 to 590 were made up by GoT. We could cut these years from the timeline and check with not cut entries type 1. and 2 if something comes up to make sense.
For my sources I have got problems to get the date as there is almost always given none at all. I found this confusing and dated with dates given in comments or got dates from Wikipedia. I also have difficulties to distinguish between history and fiction / stories. They seem to be much alike for me; maybe I am just lacking knowledge here.
Lately I am thinking about the ramp-up of the official historic dates and timeline(s) and their reliability. There were a couple of persons (Scaliger, Petavius, Newton, etc), who attempted relatively lately to construct a chronology. These results were more or less taken by historians now, as far as I understood. This is one of the bottle necks I can see.
Another bottle neck: In the middle ages writing was mostly done by monks in 'abbeys'. During these times mostly sons (and daughters) of the 'elite' became monks (and nuns). Others - normal Perrons - became lay monks, only. Writing was a monopoly of the church (and elite). In Antiquity and after about Henry VIII of England there were also lay persons (normal persons), who could read and write. 'Historic errors' are maybe more likely during the church monopoly centuries in my opinion. During early middle ages there were few persons in very few monasteries, who were writing chronicles and who were copying books (literature, history, etc.). Changes could happen from the beginning or sometime on the way e.g. when books were copied again and again.
Just my 2 cents.
I see different types of categories of entries.
1. Events counting back from 'now' (relatively objective / fix):
- tree rings - dendrochronology
- ice cores
2. Regular cyclic events calculated back from 'now' (relatively objective / fix):
- cyclic comets e.g. Halley or others
3. Written history (subjective / potential unreliable or nonexistent / flexible)
- quotes with date
- quotes without date
We could use entries type 1. and entries type 2. to calibrate entries type 3. For example there could be a theory that years 580 to 590 were made up by GoT. We could cut these years from the timeline and check with not cut entries type 1. and 2 if something comes up to make sense.
For my sources I have got problems to get the date as there is almost always given none at all. I found this confusing and dated with dates given in comments or got dates from Wikipedia. I also have difficulties to distinguish between history and fiction / stories. They seem to be much alike for me; maybe I am just lacking knowledge here.
Lately I am thinking about the ramp-up of the official historic dates and timeline(s) and their reliability. There were a couple of persons (Scaliger, Petavius, Newton, etc), who attempted relatively lately to construct a chronology. These results were more or less taken by historians now, as far as I understood. This is one of the bottle necks I can see.
Another bottle neck: In the middle ages writing was mostly done by monks in 'abbeys'. During these times mostly sons (and daughters) of the 'elite' became monks (and nuns). Others - normal Perrons - became lay monks, only. Writing was a monopoly of the church (and elite). In Antiquity and after about Henry VIII of England there were also lay persons (normal persons), who could read and write. 'Historic errors' are maybe more likely during the church monopoly centuries in my opinion. During early middle ages there were few persons in very few monasteries, who were writing chronicles and who were copying books (literature, history, etc.). Changes could happen from the beginning or sometime on the way e.g. when books were copied again and again.
Just my 2 cents.
Re: Historical Events Database
That's the plan. That's why each "strand" needs its own entries so they can be extracted individually, used to create graphs, the graphic patterns compared, and then possible solutions found to make adjustments and figure out what really happened and WHEN.
Yeah, I know. That's why I've been sharing some of my findings to give ya'll an idea of how to treat some of these things. For example, the story I posted yesterday from GoT where he tells how his deacon went to Rome and brought back this story, well, that didn't get an entry though I DID include it in the Notes field on the main entry on that topic.
Also, there was the comparison of the women prophesying disaster before an "event" as in the tsunami/flood and the fire in Paris. Those are probably after the fact folk constructions though, of course, they COULD be based on a real event. But, they don't get an entry. However, both of them could be put in the Notes section on the respective events so as to trigger consideration of which source influenced which other source.
Yeah.
That's a goody synopsis of the problem. As the text critics point out, nearly ALL MSS we have from ancient times are written by a very few hands. That's why I went off on the side trip of examining the history of text criticism and following the chain of evidence for the existence of various manuscripts. Who wrote them? Who copied them? When? Where did they end up? What might be the agendas of the copyists? All of those are valid questions.
So, we get graphs of ice core stuff, then we match them to tree rings, then we work on finding how the historical events line up from graphic representations. We can try that several ways. We might first compare all the sources to each other and try to find the best "history time-line" and then compare that to the ice-core/tree-ring data to see how much further we have to adjust things. We may need to entirely ignore trying to match Chinese comets to Western comet observations until after we do that because, as I understand it, that was done only fairly recently and if the timeline is as messed up as we think it is, then those matches won't hold up.
Dirgni said:
That's the plan. That's why each "strand" needs its own entries so they can be extracted individually, used to create graphs, the graphic patterns compared, and then possible solutions found to make adjustments and figure out what really happened and WHEN.
Dirgni said:For my sources I have got problems to get the date as there is almost always given none at all. I found this confusing and dated with dates given in comments or got dates from Wikipedia. I also have difficulties to distinguish between history and fiction / stories. They seem to be much alike for me; maybe I am just lacking knowledge here.
Yeah, I know. That's why I've been sharing some of my findings to give ya'll an idea of how to treat some of these things. For example, the story I posted yesterday from GoT where he tells how his deacon went to Rome and brought back this story, well, that didn't get an entry though I DID include it in the Notes field on the main entry on that topic.
Also, there was the comparison of the women prophesying disaster before an "event" as in the tsunami/flood and the fire in Paris. Those are probably after the fact folk constructions though, of course, they COULD be based on a real event. But, they don't get an entry. However, both of them could be put in the Notes section on the respective events so as to trigger consideration of which source influenced which other source.
Dirgni said:
Yeah.
Dirgni said:
That's a goody synopsis of the problem. As the text critics point out, nearly ALL MSS we have from ancient times are written by a very few hands. That's why I went off on the side trip of examining the history of text criticism and following the chain of evidence for the existence of various manuscripts. Who wrote them? Who copied them? When? Where did they end up? What might be the agendas of the copyists? All of those are valid questions.
So, we get graphs of ice core stuff, then we match them to tree rings, then we work on finding how the historical events line up from graphic representations. We can try that several ways. We might first compare all the sources to each other and try to find the best "history time-line" and then compare that to the ice-core/tree-ring data to see how much further we have to adjust things. We may need to entirely ignore trying to match Chinese comets to Western comet observations until after we do that because, as I understand it, that was done only fairly recently and if the timeline is as messed up as we think it is, then those matches won't hold up.
Re: Historical Events Database
Today we have a marvelous story from GoT, closing chapters of his Xth book.
Now, the footnote in my translation of GoT tells us: "Antioch was captured and partially destroyed in 573 by Adarmaanes, the general of Chosroes. Since Bishop Simon was allegedly telling the story in 591, it was almost 20 years after the event."
The problem is in the account of the earthquake which the translator assures us is the earthquake of 589. It bears strong hints of the Earthquake of 526 (notice the references to Lot and Sodom) which John Lewis believes was a Tunguska-like event.
So, let’s assemble a little timeline with a few details from the various historical/analytical sources. I’m expanding the net just in case there are multiplications of events (good thing, too, as we will see!)
37 AD: An earthquake that shook Antioch in AD 37 caused the emperor Caligula to send two senators to report on the condition of the city. (Emperor from 37 to 41)
WP sez: “Another quake followed in the next reign.” The next reign was Claudius - 41 to 54 AD - but I can’t track down this other earthquake. However, the destruction of Jerusalem was in 70 AD and that may very well have been an earthquake/Tunguska like event.
115 AD: when Trajan was present during his war against Parthia, it is said that the whole region was convulsed by an earthquake. The landscape altered, and the emperor himself was forced to take shelter in the circus for several days. According to the collected info, the 115 Antioch earthquake occurred on 13 December 115 AD. It had an estimated magnitude of 7.5 on the surface wave magnitude scale and an estimated maximum intensity of XI (extreme) on the Mercalli intensity scale. Antioch and surrounding areas were devastated with a great loss of life and property. It triggered a local tsunami that badly damaged the harbour at Caesarea Maritima. The Roman Emperor Trajan was caught in the earthquake, as was his successor Hadrian. They escaped with only slight injuries and later began a program to rebuild the city.
An account of the earthquake was included by the writer Cassius Dio {AD 155 – 235} in his Roman History. He describes Antioch at that time as crowded with soldiers and many civilians that had travelled from all parts of the empire, because Trajan was overwintering there. The earthquake began with a loud roaring sound, followed by intense shaking of the ground. Whole trees were thrown into the air, as were many of the inhabitants, causing great injury. Large numbers of people were killed by falling debris, while many others were trapped. The aftershocks that followed the earthquake for several days killed some of the survivors, while others that were trapped died of hunger. Trajan managed to get clear of the house he was staying in by leaving through a window and only suffered minor injuries. Because of the danger from aftershocks, he moved with his retinue to the open hippodrome.
The city of Apamea was also destroyed by the earthquake and Beirut suffered significant damage. The tsunami triggered by the earthquake affected the Lebanese coast, particularly at Caeserea and Yavneh. The harbour at Caeserea Maritima was probably destroyed by the tsunami, an interpretation based on the dating of a half metre thick tsunami deposit found outside the harbour.
The origin of the reported death toll of 260,000 is uncertain, as it only appears in catalogues of about the last hundred years.
Now, the problem with the 115 earthquake is this: Geophysicist, Amos Nur, has studied the lake “seismites” in the Dead Sea and has found no evidence of an earthquake around 115 AD.
With the mention of the tsunami, let's just toss that one in here:
365 AD:
The AD 365 Crete earthquake was an undersea earthquake that occurred at about sunrise on 21 July 365 in the Eastern Mediterranean, with an assumed epicentre near Crete. Geologists today estimate the quake to have been a magnitude eight or higher, causing widespread destruction in central and southern Greece, northern Libya, Egypt, Cyprus, and Sicily. In Crete, nearly all towns were destroyed.
The Crete earthquake was followed by a tsunami which devastated the southern and eastern coasts of the Mediterranean, particularly Libya, Alexandria and the Nile Delta, killing thousands and hurling ships 3 km (1.9 mi) inland. The quake left a deep impression on the late antique mind, and numerous writers of the time referred in their works to the event.
SOoooo… let’s take a look at that most famous of earthquakes in Antioch:
526 – May 20-29: Earthquake . Antioch, Dafneh, Seluecea, Aftershocks. Liquefaction at Antioch. Fire in Antioch.
Sources
The 526 Antioch earthquake struck during late May, probably between May 20–29, at mid-morning, killing approximately 250,000 people. The earthquake was followed by a fire that destroyed most of the buildings left standing by the earthquake. The maximum intensity in Antioch is estimated to be between VIII (destructive) and IX (violent) on the Mercalli intensity scale.
It was followed by 18 months of aftershocks.[ Intensity estimates on the Mercalli scale are: VIII-IX for Antioch; VII for both Daphne, a suburb of Antioch, and the port town of Seleucia Pieria.
The earthquake caused severe damage to many of the buildings in Antioch, including Constantine's great octagonal church Domus Aurea built on an island in the Orontes River. Only houses built close to the mountain are said to have survived. Most of the damage however, was a result of the fires that went on for many days in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake, made worse by the wind. The Great Church was destroyed by the fire seven days after the earthquake. Amongst the many victims was Euphrasius the Patriarch of Antioch, who died by falling into a cauldron of pitch being used by wineskin makers, with only his head remaining unburnt.
In the port of Seleucia Pieria an uplift of 0.7–0.8 m has been estimated, and the subsequent silting up of the harbour left it unusable.
Estimates of the death toll for this earthquake vary between 250,000 and 300,000, with 250,000 being the most commonly reported. It has been suggested that the very high number of casualties was a result of there being a large number of visitors in the city from the surrounding countryside, there to celebrate Ascension Day.
In Constantinople, Justin I reportedly reacted to the news of the earthquake by removing his diadem and crimson chlamys. He entered the church without these symbols of his rank and publicly lamented the destruction of Antioch. He arranged for ambassadors to be sent to the city with sufficient money for both immediate relief and to start Antioch's reconstruction. Many of the buildings erected after the earthquake were destroyed by another major earthquake in November 528, although there were far fewer casualties.
The 526 earthquake of Antioch sounds an awful lot like the alleged earthquake of 115 AD so one wonders if it happened in either place at either of those times OR, if it actually describes what happened in Rome/Italy?
Next, the alleged earthquake in Antioch two years later:
528 – November 29, Earthquake, Antioch, Lattakia
Sources:
531-34 – Malalas mentions another “great earthquake” at Antioch but “without damage.” Why did he mention it at all?
Sources:
In 532, Khosrau and Justinian, emperor of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire concluded Pax Perpetuum, or the Eternal Peace in hopes of settling all land disputes between the Romans and Sassanians.
In 540, Khosrau broke the Pax Perpetuum and struck Mesopotamia and Syria. He then moved out to Antioch. The walls of Antioch had been greatly damaged during an earthquake in 525–526, and the Romans had not since repaired them because of western military campaigns, which made it much easier to conquer. Khosrau sacked and burned the city at which point Justinian sued for peace, giving Khosrau a large amount of money. While traveling back to Persia, Khosrau took ransoms from multiple Byzantine towns at which point Justinian called off his truce and prepared to send his great commander Belisarius to move against the Sassanians.
551 July 9 Earthquake, Beirut, Tsunami etc. By now, one wonders if this Beirut earthquake was involved in the ocean impact that “flooded Rome”???
Sources
Here is a WP description of the event:
The 551 Beirut earthquake occurred on 9 July 551 AD. It had an estimated magnitude of about 7.6 on the moment magnitude scale and a maximum felt intensity of X (Intense) on the Mercalli intensity scale. It triggered a devastating tsunami which affected the coastal towns of Phoenicia, causing great destruction and sinking many ships. Overall large numbers of people were reported killed, with one estimate of 30,000 by Antoninus of Piacenza for Beirut alone.
There is little in the way of detailed descriptions of the damage caused by this earthquake in contemporary accounts. Sources refer to the coastal cities from Tyre to Tripoli being reduced to ruins with many thousands of casualties. Antoninus of Piacenza reported that 30,000 people died in Beirut alone. The tsunami affected the whole of the coast from Tyre to Tripoli. Withdrawal of the sea by up to two miles was recorded in some contemporary accounts.
Reports of damage at Petra and other locations in the Jordan Valley associated with the 551 event have been re-analyzed, suggesting that a later earthquake was more likely to be responsible.
565-571 Earthquake Antioch, Seleucea, Killkia, Anazrabo, Orfa
Sources:
580-581 Earthquake, Antioch, Dafneh
Sources:
We come now to the earthquake that is suggested as the one that our Bishop Simon has told GoT about:
588 – Earthquake, Antioch, Aftershocks.
Sources:
It seems that the witness of Evagrius is good, but as noted above, we notice elements of the 115 and 526 earthquakes hinted at in the account of Gregory, particularly with the "great noise" and the references to Lot and Sodom (fire fell from heaven). So the conclusion is, whoever was writing Gregory of Tours, whether there was a real Gregory and/or a later redactor, they certainly knew the content of Eastern chronicles.
Of course, pulling on this thread has just opened up a whole can of worms in regard to the 115 earthquake which apparently didn't happen in 115, and the copycat earthquake of 526.
Oy.
Some sources:
Menander Protector. Fragments 6.1-6.3. Translated by R.C. Blockey, edited by Khodadad Rezakhani.
Joshua the Stylite, The Chronicle of Joshua the Sylite, tr. J Watt and F.
Trombley,Liverpool,2000.
Malalas, Chronographia, tr. E. and M. Jeffreys and R Scott, Melbourne 1986.
Menander Protector. History of Menander the Guardsman, tr. R. C. Blockley, Liverpool, 1985.
Procopius, Wars, translated by H. B. Dewing, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press,1914-1928.
Casio Dio, Roman History, Book LXVIII, Section 24-25, description of the Antioch earthquake.
Sbeinati, M.R.; Darawcheh, R. & Mouty, M. (2005). "The historical earthquakes of Syria: an analysis of large and moderate earthquakes from 1365 B.C. to 1900 A.D.". Annals of Geophysics 48 (3): 347–435.
Reinhardt, E.G.; Goodman B.N., Boyce J.I., Lopez G., van Hengstum P., Rinnk W.J., Mart Y. & Raban A. (2006). "The tsunami of 13 December A.D. 115 and the destruction of Herod the Great's harbor at Caeserea Maritima, Israel". Geology (Geological Society of America) 34 (12): 1061–1064.
Musson, R. (7 March 2001). "The ten deadliest ever earthquakes". British Geological Survey.
Sbeinati, M.R.; Darawcheh, R. & Mouty, M. (2005). "The historical earthquakes of Syria: an analysis of large and moderate earthquakes from 1365 B.C. to 1900 A.D.". Annals of Geophysics 48 (3): 347–435.
Witakowski, W. (1996). Chronicle: known also as the Chronicle of Zuqnin, Part 3. Translated texts for historians 22. Liverpool University Press. pp. 46–47.
Erol, O. & Pirazzoli, P.A. 2007. Seleucia Pieria: an ancient harbour submitted to two successive uplifts. International Journal of Nautical Archaeology, 21, 317-327.
Meier, M. (2007). "Natural Disasters in the Chronographia of John Malalas : Reflections on their Function --An Initial Sketch". The Medieval History Journal 10 (1-2): 237–266.
Andrade, N.J. (2009). "The Syriac life of John of Tella and the frontier Politeia". Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies 12 (2): 199–234.
Today we have a marvelous story from GoT, closing chapters of his Xth book.
Now, the footnote in my translation of GoT tells us: "Antioch was captured and partially destroyed in 573 by Adarmaanes, the general of Chosroes. Since Bishop Simon was allegedly telling the story in 591, it was almost 20 years after the event."
The problem is in the account of the earthquake which the translator assures us is the earthquake of 589. It bears strong hints of the Earthquake of 526 (notice the references to Lot and Sodom) which John Lewis believes was a Tunguska-like event.
So, let’s assemble a little timeline with a few details from the various historical/analytical sources. I’m expanding the net just in case there are multiplications of events (good thing, too, as we will see!)
37 AD: An earthquake that shook Antioch in AD 37 caused the emperor Caligula to send two senators to report on the condition of the city. (Emperor from 37 to 41)
WP sez: “Another quake followed in the next reign.” The next reign was Claudius - 41 to 54 AD - but I can’t track down this other earthquake. However, the destruction of Jerusalem was in 70 AD and that may very well have been an earthquake/Tunguska like event.
115 AD: when Trajan was present during his war against Parthia, it is said that the whole region was convulsed by an earthquake. The landscape altered, and the emperor himself was forced to take shelter in the circus for several days. According to the collected info, the 115 Antioch earthquake occurred on 13 December 115 AD. It had an estimated magnitude of 7.5 on the surface wave magnitude scale and an estimated maximum intensity of XI (extreme) on the Mercalli intensity scale. Antioch and surrounding areas were devastated with a great loss of life and property. It triggered a local tsunami that badly damaged the harbour at Caesarea Maritima. The Roman Emperor Trajan was caught in the earthquake, as was his successor Hadrian. They escaped with only slight injuries and later began a program to rebuild the city.
An account of the earthquake was included by the writer Cassius Dio {AD 155 – 235} in his Roman History. He describes Antioch at that time as crowded with soldiers and many civilians that had travelled from all parts of the empire, because Trajan was overwintering there. The earthquake began with a loud roaring sound, followed by intense shaking of the ground. Whole trees were thrown into the air, as were many of the inhabitants, causing great injury. Large numbers of people were killed by falling debris, while many others were trapped. The aftershocks that followed the earthquake for several days killed some of the survivors, while others that were trapped died of hunger. Trajan managed to get clear of the house he was staying in by leaving through a window and only suffered minor injuries. Because of the danger from aftershocks, he moved with his retinue to the open hippodrome.
The city of Apamea was also destroyed by the earthquake and Beirut suffered significant damage. The tsunami triggered by the earthquake affected the Lebanese coast, particularly at Caeserea and Yavneh. The harbour at Caeserea Maritima was probably destroyed by the tsunami, an interpretation based on the dating of a half metre thick tsunami deposit found outside the harbour.
The origin of the reported death toll of 260,000 is uncertain, as it only appears in catalogues of about the last hundred years.
Now, the problem with the 115 earthquake is this: Geophysicist, Amos Nur, has studied the lake “seismites” in the Dead Sea and has found no evidence of an earthquake around 115 AD.
With the mention of the tsunami, let's just toss that one in here:
365 AD:
The AD 365 Crete earthquake was an undersea earthquake that occurred at about sunrise on 21 July 365 in the Eastern Mediterranean, with an assumed epicentre near Crete. Geologists today estimate the quake to have been a magnitude eight or higher, causing widespread destruction in central and southern Greece, northern Libya, Egypt, Cyprus, and Sicily. In Crete, nearly all towns were destroyed.
The Crete earthquake was followed by a tsunami which devastated the southern and eastern coasts of the Mediterranean, particularly Libya, Alexandria and the Nile Delta, killing thousands and hurling ships 3 km (1.9 mi) inland. The quake left a deep impression on the late antique mind, and numerous writers of the time referred in their works to the event.
SOoooo… let’s take a look at that most famous of earthquakes in Antioch:
526 – May 20-29: Earthquake . Antioch, Dafneh, Seluecea, Aftershocks. Liquefaction at Antioch. Fire in Antioch.
Sources
- Malalas
John of Ephesus
Procopius of Caesarea
Evagrius Scholasticus
Chronicle of Edessa
Zachariah of Mitylene
John Lydus
Count Marcellinus
John of Nikiu
Theophanes
Chronicle of 819
George the Monk
Leo the Grammarian
George Cedrenus
Michael the Syrian
Chronicle of 1234
Etc.
The 526 Antioch earthquake struck during late May, probably between May 20–29, at mid-morning, killing approximately 250,000 people. The earthquake was followed by a fire that destroyed most of the buildings left standing by the earthquake. The maximum intensity in Antioch is estimated to be between VIII (destructive) and IX (violent) on the Mercalli intensity scale.
It was followed by 18 months of aftershocks.[ Intensity estimates on the Mercalli scale are: VIII-IX for Antioch; VII for both Daphne, a suburb of Antioch, and the port town of Seleucia Pieria.
The earthquake caused severe damage to many of the buildings in Antioch, including Constantine's great octagonal church Domus Aurea built on an island in the Orontes River. Only houses built close to the mountain are said to have survived. Most of the damage however, was a result of the fires that went on for many days in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake, made worse by the wind. The Great Church was destroyed by the fire seven days after the earthquake. Amongst the many victims was Euphrasius the Patriarch of Antioch, who died by falling into a cauldron of pitch being used by wineskin makers, with only his head remaining unburnt.
In the port of Seleucia Pieria an uplift of 0.7–0.8 m has been estimated, and the subsequent silting up of the harbour left it unusable.
Estimates of the death toll for this earthquake vary between 250,000 and 300,000, with 250,000 being the most commonly reported. It has been suggested that the very high number of casualties was a result of there being a large number of visitors in the city from the surrounding countryside, there to celebrate Ascension Day.
In Constantinople, Justin I reportedly reacted to the news of the earthquake by removing his diadem and crimson chlamys. He entered the church without these symbols of his rank and publicly lamented the destruction of Antioch. He arranged for ambassadors to be sent to the city with sufficient money for both immediate relief and to start Antioch's reconstruction. Many of the buildings erected after the earthquake were destroyed by another major earthquake in November 528, although there were far fewer casualties.
The 526 earthquake of Antioch sounds an awful lot like the alleged earthquake of 115 AD so one wonders if it happened in either place at either of those times OR, if it actually describes what happened in Rome/Italy?
Next, the alleged earthquake in Antioch two years later:
528 – November 29, Earthquake, Antioch, Lattakia
Sources:
- Malalas
John of Ephesus
Evagrius Scholasticus
Theophanes
George the Monk
Leo the Grammarian
George Cedrenus
Chronicle of 1234
Nicephorus Callistus
Saadeh
Etc.
531-34 – Malalas mentions another “great earthquake” at Antioch but “without damage.” Why did he mention it at all?
Sources:
- Malalas
In 532, Khosrau and Justinian, emperor of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire concluded Pax Perpetuum, or the Eternal Peace in hopes of settling all land disputes between the Romans and Sassanians.
In 540, Khosrau broke the Pax Perpetuum and struck Mesopotamia and Syria. He then moved out to Antioch. The walls of Antioch had been greatly damaged during an earthquake in 525–526, and the Romans had not since repaired them because of western military campaigns, which made it much easier to conquer. Khosrau sacked and burned the city at which point Justinian sued for peace, giving Khosrau a large amount of money. While traveling back to Persia, Khosrau took ransoms from multiple Byzantine towns at which point Justinian called off his truce and prepared to send his great commander Belisarius to move against the Sassanians.
551 July 9 Earthquake, Beirut, Tsunami etc. By now, one wonders if this Beirut earthquake was involved in the ocean impact that “flooded Rome”???
Sources
- Malalas
Theophanes
George the Monk
George Cedrenus
Antoninus of Piacenza
John of Ephesus
Agathias
Etc.
Here is a WP description of the event:
The 551 Beirut earthquake occurred on 9 July 551 AD. It had an estimated magnitude of about 7.6 on the moment magnitude scale and a maximum felt intensity of X (Intense) on the Mercalli intensity scale. It triggered a devastating tsunami which affected the coastal towns of Phoenicia, causing great destruction and sinking many ships. Overall large numbers of people were reported killed, with one estimate of 30,000 by Antoninus of Piacenza for Beirut alone.
There is little in the way of detailed descriptions of the damage caused by this earthquake in contemporary accounts. Sources refer to the coastal cities from Tyre to Tripoli being reduced to ruins with many thousands of casualties. Antoninus of Piacenza reported that 30,000 people died in Beirut alone. The tsunami affected the whole of the coast from Tyre to Tripoli. Withdrawal of the sea by up to two miles was recorded in some contemporary accounts.
Reports of damage at Petra and other locations in the Jordan Valley associated with the 551 event have been re-analyzed, suggesting that a later earthquake was more likely to be responsible.
565-571 Earthquake Antioch, Seleucea, Killkia, Anazrabo, Orfa
Sources:
- Procopius
Theophanes
George Cedrenus
Majes of Edessa
Elias of Nisibis
Chronicle of 724
Chronicle of 1234
Etc
580-581 Earthquake, Antioch, Dafneh
Sources:
- Evagrius Scholasticus
Nicephorus Callistus
Agapius of Menbij
We come now to the earthquake that is suggested as the one that our Bishop Simon has told GoT about:
588 – Earthquake, Antioch, Aftershocks.
Sources:
- Evagrius Scholasticus was an eyewitness. There was an earthquake with a big sound at Antioch. Many buildings fell down. … Large number of persons killed. No fire.
John of Nikiu – During reign of the Emperor Maurice
Agapius: The big churches were destroyed as well as most of the city wall, trade square and houses.
Nicephorus Callistus: Same as Evagrius.
Plassard and Kogoj (1981) date the earthquake to October 21 or 31, 589. Poirier and Taher (1980) date it to 588
Suggested that there were 60K victims.
It seems that the witness of Evagrius is good, but as noted above, we notice elements of the 115 and 526 earthquakes hinted at in the account of Gregory, particularly with the "great noise" and the references to Lot and Sodom (fire fell from heaven). So the conclusion is, whoever was writing Gregory of Tours, whether there was a real Gregory and/or a later redactor, they certainly knew the content of Eastern chronicles.
Of course, pulling on this thread has just opened up a whole can of worms in regard to the 115 earthquake which apparently didn't happen in 115, and the copycat earthquake of 526.
Oy.
Some sources:
Menander Protector. Fragments 6.1-6.3. Translated by R.C. Blockey, edited by Khodadad Rezakhani.
Joshua the Stylite, The Chronicle of Joshua the Sylite, tr. J Watt and F.
Trombley,Liverpool,2000.
Malalas, Chronographia, tr. E. and M. Jeffreys and R Scott, Melbourne 1986.
Menander Protector. History of Menander the Guardsman, tr. R. C. Blockley, Liverpool, 1985.
Procopius, Wars, translated by H. B. Dewing, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press,1914-1928.
Casio Dio, Roman History, Book LXVIII, Section 24-25, description of the Antioch earthquake.
Sbeinati, M.R.; Darawcheh, R. & Mouty, M. (2005). "The historical earthquakes of Syria: an analysis of large and moderate earthquakes from 1365 B.C. to 1900 A.D.". Annals of Geophysics 48 (3): 347–435.
Reinhardt, E.G.; Goodman B.N., Boyce J.I., Lopez G., van Hengstum P., Rinnk W.J., Mart Y. & Raban A. (2006). "The tsunami of 13 December A.D. 115 and the destruction of Herod the Great's harbor at Caeserea Maritima, Israel". Geology (Geological Society of America) 34 (12): 1061–1064.
Musson, R. (7 March 2001). "The ten deadliest ever earthquakes". British Geological Survey.
Sbeinati, M.R.; Darawcheh, R. & Mouty, M. (2005). "The historical earthquakes of Syria: an analysis of large and moderate earthquakes from 1365 B.C. to 1900 A.D.". Annals of Geophysics 48 (3): 347–435.
Witakowski, W. (1996). Chronicle: known also as the Chronicle of Zuqnin, Part 3. Translated texts for historians 22. Liverpool University Press. pp. 46–47.
Erol, O. & Pirazzoli, P.A. 2007. Seleucia Pieria: an ancient harbour submitted to two successive uplifts. International Journal of Nautical Archaeology, 21, 317-327.
Meier, M. (2007). "Natural Disasters in the Chronographia of John Malalas : Reflections on their Function --An Initial Sketch". The Medieval History Journal 10 (1-2): 237–266.
Andrade, N.J. (2009). "The Syriac life of John of Tella and the frontier Politeia". Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies 12 (2): 199–234.
Zadig
Jedi
Re: Historical Events Database
The fact is that I don’t have access to Kronk’s book. Thus, I struggle with the preview on Amazon, or on Google books. And, sometimes I don’t have access to the whole description of the comet, or sometimes I can see the page and sometimes I can’t.
Imo, you need to be more specific, i.e. which period, which chronicler, which event, otherwise the amount of data to enter will be completely insane. E.g., for 1 plague and 1 earthquake in 717 AD, I can create 10 entries.
If you want to do this for the VI and V centuries, with all chroniclers and all events, it will be without end, except if you have 10 peoples working full time for the database.
The fact is that I don’t have access to Kronk’s book. Thus, I struggle with the preview on Amazon, or on Google books. And, sometimes I don’t have access to the whole description of the comet, or sometimes I can see the page and sometimes I can’t.
Ok
Imo, you need to be more specific, i.e. which period, which chronicler, which event, otherwise the amount of data to enter will be completely insane. E.g., for 1 plague and 1 earthquake in 717 AD, I can create 10 entries.
If you want to do this for the VI and V centuries, with all chroniclers and all events, it will be without end, except if you have 10 peoples working full time for the database.
Re: Historical Events Database
Oh, I see. Well, I'll be making it available to all of you to work with asap. Just hang on. For now then, that's fine.
I know. Let me think about it.
Obviously, we only want the witnesses; problem is, there was a lot of meddling with the sources and sometimes one later source that still had access to the original gives additional details that are lost from the redacted original. So, the only solution there would be to ONLY enter the original, contemporary chronicle events and then add the repeats in the same quote field, with sources in parentheses.
Then, when you find a source, such as Michael the Syrian, for example, who may quote a part of Malalas that is lost, then it would have to be entered as coming from the volume of MtS, BUT "derived from" Malalas.
Zadig said:
Oh, I see. Well, I'll be making it available to all of you to work with asap. Just hang on. For now then, that's fine.
Zadig said:
I know. Let me think about it.
Obviously, we only want the witnesses; problem is, there was a lot of meddling with the sources and sometimes one later source that still had access to the original gives additional details that are lost from the redacted original. So, the only solution there would be to ONLY enter the original, contemporary chronicle events and then add the repeats in the same quote field, with sources in parentheses.
Then, when you find a source, such as Michael the Syrian, for example, who may quote a part of Malalas that is lost, then it would have to be entered as coming from the volume of MtS, BUT "derived from" Malalas.
Palinurus
The Living Force
Re: Historical Events Database
Thank you for your kind assistance, Laura.
I went to have a look and thought I would also find the entry in the complete list, but I didn't find it at all at the expected place.
After some puzzlement and searching, I detected that you mistakenly dated the event in 31 AD whereas the earthquake happened in 31 BC which was the year of the naval battle at Actium too.
I have corrected this back to 31 BC and the entry does now show up at its intended place in the complete list.
While doing so, I also slightly corrected the way in which the two quotes are mentioned, because they stem from two distinct publications -- the main one being from Wars of the Jews which is the older of the two texts. I've adjusted the source accordingly to prevent misunderstanding.
Tricky business this, when you want to be as precise as possible.
Laura said:
Thank you for your kind assistance, Laura.
I went to have a look and thought I would also find the entry in the complete list, but I didn't find it at all at the expected place.
After some puzzlement and searching, I detected that you mistakenly dated the event in 31 AD whereas the earthquake happened in 31 BC which was the year of the naval battle at Actium too.
I have corrected this back to 31 BC and the entry does now show up at its intended place in the complete list.
While doing so, I also slightly corrected the way in which the two quotes are mentioned, because they stem from two distinct publications -- the main one being from Wars of the Jews which is the older of the two texts. I've adjusted the source accordingly to prevent misunderstanding.
Tricky business this, when you want to be as precise as possible.
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