Historical Events Database - History

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Laura, I have a question:

In reviewing the years between 564 and 580, I found, by accident, the short Chronicle of Marius d’Avenches. He talks about a plague during the years 569-570 and 571 in Western Europe. According to a scholar, the plague is also recorded by Paul.

But, you didn’t mention anything except heavy snow in 568. (Marius mentions also a cold winter but during and just after the comet of 565.)

Why ?

It’s not the right date?

Yet, it corresponds to the Year of the Elephant.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Laura, I have a question:

In reviewing the years between 564 and 580, I found, by accident, the short Chronicle of Marius d’Avenches. He talks about a plague during the years 569-570 and 571 in Western Europe. According to a scholar, the plague is also recorded by Paul.

But, you didn’t mention anything except heavy snow in 568. (Marius mentions also a cold winter but during and just after the comet of 565.)

Why ?

It’s not the right date?

Yet, it corresponds to the Year of the Elephant.

Because I am not dealing with that chronicler yet. I've got the texts of Gregory and Paul to work with right now and when I finish those, I'll go to the other chronicles and go through each one carefully as I make my entries.

If you will read some of my posts and entries themselves, you'll see why. Sometimes, I find things that would otherwise be missed if one is just searching and grabbing from a computer file. My copies of these texts are marked with sticky tabs, margin notes, and cross-references to each other and some texts that are referenced in footnotes or various papers analyzing the texts. I don't just read the texts themselves, I read books and papers about the texts. I focus intently and pull on threads when something strikes me as unusual or reminds me of something in some other text. (I've read all these texts before but am now going through them with a fine-toothed comb.)

Now, for example, I'm looking at Gregory's text and I find that there is absolutely NOTHING mentioned about the years during which we are fairly certain the dust veil event described by Procopius and Cassiodorus took place. I mean NOTHING. I've read it over about five or six times looking for any possible clue that here or there something could be an allusion or a sign of redaction, and there is nothing. The CLOSEST thing to a possible reference to that event is III.37 where he says:

That year the winter weather was harsh and more bitter than usual. The mountain torrents were frozen solid and people walked across them as if they were dry ground. The snow lay deep and the birds were numbed with cold and famished with hunger, so that they could be taken by hand without any need or snares.

The only problem with the above is that it is posted in the year in which King Theudebert died and Gregory adds:

Thirty-seven years elapsed between the death of Clovis and the death of Theudebert. Theudebert died in the fourteenth year of his reign. ...

That is, 548 (death of Theudebert). Now, admittedly, Gregory was allegedly born in 538 - two years after the proposed date of the dust-veil event. BUT, that would almost guarantee that he would have been told about that phenomenon as he grew up: "Two years before you were born, the sun was veiled for a year... you young whipper-snapper!" So his failure to mention it has given me grave doubts about Gregory altogether. I paused to think about it.

Now, what I think COULD be an explanation is that the chronicle written about Gregory's OWN times, might have been original, and some of his modeling on Eusebius and Jerome, i.e. biblical times to bring it up to his time; BUT that the "history of the Franks" that is worked in there was added later.

Because, otherwise, if there is something that we know from SCIENCE that happened, and the chronicler did NOT record it, what are we to think? It almost appears as though some later redactor didn't even know about that event and was just BSing his way through.

It is stressful for me when I find things like this because I have a need to solve the mystery. And that is also why I like to work my way slowly through a text, pulling on each thread as it comes up, checking and cross-checking.

So, I'll get to Marius of Avenches soon enough. If anyone else gets to it before I do, I hope they will be as thorough, searching for clues and cross-checking stuff. You sort of have to have a mind like Sherlock Holmes where small but significant things catch your attention; and then the ability to decide at some point whether or not they are really significant or can be easily explained away.

I can't explain away Gregory's failure to mention the 536 dust veil in any way other than a 'cold winter' and over ten years later according to his chronology.

ADDED: this is also why I think that each person should take ONE text and become an expert on that text before going to the next one. As I said, I've read a slew of them and when something in one text reminds me of something in another, my brain sends up some kind of signal and I stop and start checking.

The post I wrote and lost the other day was about a rather startling discovery I made in Gregory's text that I'll type up again - in Word - and share. It was a huge clue to either 1) Gregory had Eastern texts; 2) the redactor of his original work had those texts.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Now, the above extract that I have dated to 548 because it was associated with the death of Theudebert, is at the end of Gregory's Book III. In IV.5, we find the following that can be assigned to 543:

When the time finally came for Saint Quintianus to die, Saint Gall replaced him on his episcopal throne, with the full approval of the King, as I have already said. In Saint Gall's time the plague raged in various parts of Gaul, causing great swellings in the groin. It was particularly bad in the province of Arles, and Saint Gall was anxious not only for himself but more especially for his flock. He prayed to God night and day that he might not live to see his diocese decimated. One night the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a vision, with his hair and raiment as white as driven snow. 'You do well, Lord Bishop,' said the Angel, 'to pray to God in this way for your people. Your prayer has been heard. As long as you live, you and your flock will be free of the plague and no one in this region will die because of it. At the moment you have, than, no need to be afraid; but when eight years have passed the time will really come for fear.' It was clear from this that Saint Gall would die eight years later. {he died in 551} He awoke and returned thanks to God for giving him this reassurance and for having deigned to comfort him by sending a message from on high. Saint Gall then instituted the Rogations for which all jorneyed on foot in the middle of Lent to the church of Saint Julian the martyr, singing psalms as they went. The church is about sixty-five kilometres from Clermont-Ferrand. Suddenly before men's very eyes signs appeared on the walls of houses and churches. The inscription was recognized by the country-folk who saw it as a tau. As I have explained, the plague raged through other parts of Gaul, but thanks to the prayers of Saint Gall it claimed no victims in Clermont-Ferrand. In my opinion it was no small grace which was able to bring it to pass that the shepherd who stayed to watch did not see his sheep devoured, because God preserved them.

The only reason I can see for this confusion of dates is that the redactor busy inserting a fake "History of the Franks" and their kings and a bunch of obviously false doings and comings and goings, between the things Gregory actually recorded, and sometimes messed up royally (no pun intended) as he did here. He inserted the death of a king (probably some robber baron-type) who died in 548 in association with an event that MUST have related to 536/37 - the dust veil and extreme winter. And then, the next book picked up naturally from the event of 536/37 - the dust veil event which was removed, and continued on with the arrival of the plague, known to have followed it by just a couple of years.

So, I think I'm going to change the date for that very cold winter to 536/37, and include the above justification for why I am doing so.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Laura, I have a question:

In reviewing the years between 564 and 580, I found, by accident, the short Chronicle of Marius d’Avenches. He talks about a plague during the years 569-570 and 571 in Western Europe. According to a scholar, the plague is also recorded by Paul.

But, you didn’t mention anything except heavy snow in 568. (Marius mentions also a cold winter but during and just after the comet of 565.)

Why ?

It’s not the right date?

Yet, it corresponds to the Year of the Elephant.

Re Marius: I'm struggling here with what to do with what Gregory wrote vs what PtD wrote vs. Marius.
Check out entries: 781, 782, 783, 784 and notice that this is dated by scholars to 563 because, according to the footnote: "This event is described by Marius of Avenches in his Chronicle, under the year 563."

Then look at the entries for 559 from GoT and see my problem. Was all this a doublet or was it that things were so nuts back here that the same stuff was repeating with only minor variations?

I don't know. It took me two days to sort out in my mind what to do with the entries around the 536 dust veil thing. So I made a pitiful showing with entries thus far today, and now I'm stymied again and need to think.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Notice this white-washed version of the plague in Gaul from GoT with, AGAIN, the strange markings on walls:

When the time finally came for Saint Quintianus to die, Saint Gall replaced him on his episcopal throne, with the full approval of the King, as I have already said. In Saint Gall's time the plague raged in various parts of Gaul, causing great swellings in the groin. It was particularly bad in the province of Arles, and Saint Gall was anxious not only for himself but more especially for his flock. He prayed to God night and day that he might not live to see his diocese decimated. One night the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a vision, with his hair and raiment as white as driven snow. 'You do well, Lord Bishop,' said the Angel, 'to pray to God in this way for your people. Your prayer has been heard. As long as you live, you and your flock will be free of the plague and no one in this region will die because of it. At the moment you have, than, no need to be afraid; but when eight years have passed the time will really come for fear.' It was clear from this that Saint Gall would die eight years later. He awoke and returned thanks to God for giving him this reassurance and for having deigned to comfort him by sending a message from on high. Saint Gall then instituted the Rogations for which all journeyed on foot in the middle of Lent to the church of Saint Julian the martyr, singing psalms as they went. The church is about sixty-five kilometres from Clermont-Ferrand. Suddenly before men's very eyes signs appeared on the walls of houses and churches. The inscription was recognized by the country-folk who saw it as a tau. As I have explained, the plague raged through other parts of Gaul, but thanks to the prayers of Saint Gall it claimed no victims in Clermont-Ferrand. In my opinion it was no small grace which was able to bring it to pass that the shepherd who stayed to watch did not see his sheep devoured, because God preserved them.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Pierre, you say:

577
Year 3 of Tiberius … When the barbarians entered the city [of Sirmium], they took pity on the poor who were tormented by hunger: it must serve as an example and condemnation for Christians who do not have pity of their fellows. They gave them bread and wine. But the poor, because of a famine that had lasted for two years were eating avidly, ate and died quickly. Those who survived took everything they could and left the city to the barbarians. …After one year the fire fell on the city and it was completely consumed. The Barbarians fled naked and the city remained empty. (MtS, Book X – Chapter XVIII – p. 347)

578
In the … fourth year of Tiberius, and the one when he died, there was a shortage of bread in all Western countries, [Western from the perspective of Mesopotamia] and especially in the imperial city. There was absolutely no bread in the bazaars. The Emperor ordered the distribution of barley from the cemetery. Bakers (made bread from it) and after three days everything was gone. Then, he ordered the distribution of the hay of the cemeteries and of all the stables of the empire, to make bread. At the end, all one could find in stores was vegetables, that is to say lentils, peas, rice, oats, all kinds of legume seeds were grounded to make flour to be mixed with barley and processed into bread. In the morning, we saw the bread of affliction sold at a great price.

The Emperor solicited many countries, and brought bread from Egypt and Thebes. Then the famine ran rampant in these countries too, and all the earth was facing a great oppression. Man was on the verge of disappearing from the face of the earth. First, death took young men and girls: they were thus preserved from sinning. Then, the death took people of all ages. Then the merciful God had mercy, glory to His goodness! There was in the sea an abundance of one species of fish, called tonos [tuna fish], they were so numerous that we drew them out of the sea like a heap of wheat. There was enough of them to feed people. For one [small sum of money] you could buy a 9-pound tuna. In areas that were not near the sea, God made to grow an abundance of admirable vegetables, lettuce, melons and others of the same kind, that men ate.
In these times, a fire occurred in the imperial city. …

There was also an earthquake in the imperial city, and especially in the Eastern countries, at the same time there was a roaring voice that came up from the middle of the earth. … In these times there were many grasshoppers which caused a lot of damage.(MtS, Book X – Chapter XIX – P. 351-352 )

Year 4 of Tiberius II is October 581-September 582, not 578. Because MtS dates the beginning of the reign of Tiberius when Justin II dies (478) leaving Tiberius as sole ruler, not 474 ( his appointment as Caesar).

En l’année 893, qui est la 4e année de Tiberius, et celle en laquelle il finit sa vie (p 351.)

AG 893 = AD 582 (893-311 = 582)

Tiberius II died in 582, and the Siege of Sirmium was in 580–582. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sirmium

Therefore, I put all entries between 581 and 582.

Anyway, the earthquake in Constantinople is probably a confusion with the earthquake in Antioch in 580-581, see entry 557.

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

The following event types are now under a new category called "Unusual weather phenomena":

cold winter
severe storm
tornado
hurricane
extreme heat
weather anomalies

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

The following event types are now under a new category called "Unusual weather phenomena":

cold winter
severe storm
tornado
hurricane
extreme heat
weather anomalies

Yes, that whole mess was driving me nuts. Now we can specify the type of phenomenon in the keywords. I just did one that was "torrential spring rain followed by snow and hard freeze." Well, that's a weather phenomenon, but it doesn't need multiple entries to deal with the several aspects.

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

Yes, that whole mess was driving me nuts. Now we can specify the type of phenomenon in the keywords. I just did one that was "torrential spring rain followed by snow and hard freeze." Well, that's a weather phenomenon, but it doesn't need multiple entries to deal with the several aspects.

In addition I moved event types "Drought" and "Flood" into the category "Unusual Weather" also.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Okay, a bit of reorganizing things:

Unusual weather is now the catchall TYPE under the "Environment" category. What we will do from now on is put ALL unusual weather in this category->type. THEN we will indicate what it is in the KEYWORDS with the following suggested (use if possible) keywords: Drought, Flood, Severe Cold, Extreme heat, Severe storm, tornado and/or whirlwind, hurricane/tempest.

Next: the term "Pestilence" will be removed from the TYPE "Pestilence/Mass Death." It will remain "Mass Death" and will be of any kind, flood, earthquake, fire, war, etc. HOWEVER, we will indicate what it is in keywords and when it is an epidemic/plague, we will use the keyword "Pestilence". You can use that alone, or with other terms. The word "Pestilence" is preferred over plague. And we will NOT use the term "Bubonic" because that is a specific disease and is not likely to have been the cause of the "Plague of Justinian" or most of the disease caused deaths of the time. I think you will find that in the various translations of these texts, the word "bubonic" was never in the original, but was added as an assumption by the translator.

I've gone through the weather related items and added the appropriate keyword to each of them and the same with the disease items: I've added "pestilence".

Now, in the course of this, I saw some entries that I'm not too sure what is going on there. So, here's the rundown for whoever may need it.

In the text box marked "quote" - that's where you put your text from the source you are using and which is listed in the "author, title, volume, etc etc" fields. In the Notes box to the right, you will put your comments about why you have done this or that, or additional information that you think is necessary. I sometimes pull a bit from wikipedia to put there to explain something, or some expert on the text in question, or the footnotes from the text, or I just write what I think about it.

I think we all need to go back over our early entries and clean them up and standardize them. It takes awhile to get used to something and to start really getting a feel for what is needed. And if we have added second or third original sources that we have not given their own entry, we need to take care of that. However, I have noticed that it is sometimes necessary to include a bit of related text in the notes box with an explanation that the current entry is similar to a previous entry, here's why, then I quote it and give the entry number in the appropriate box. I notice that Zadig is making very good use of the cross-corresponding entries coding system.

Notice that I added an event type today "Unusual Disappearances" Well, I'm not too sure about that. But darned if that doesn't describe the event. But it's the only one of its kind and I just don't know what else to do with it.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm thinking about removing the sub-category (Type) "Famine" and we just put famine entries under "mass death" and indicate "famine" in the keywords. What do ya'll think?

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

Looking how the previous entries were "merged", I think it makes sense to include famine under mass death. Then the keywords will clarify the details.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Notice this white-washed version of the plague in Gaul from GoT with, AGAIN, the strange markings on walls:

I found a similar story in the Byzantine sources. During a plague c. 747-748 :

Theophanes, p585.

In this year there was a great earthquake in Palestine, by the Jordan and in all of Syria on 18 January, in the 4th hour. Numberless multitudes perished, churches and monasteries collapsed, especially those in the desert of the Holy City.ll
In the same year a pestilence that had started in Sicily and Calabria travelled like a spreading fire all through the 14th indiction to Monobasia, Hellas, and the adjoining islands, thus scourging in advance the impious Constantine and restraining his fury against the Church and the holy icons, even though he remained unrepentant like Pharaoh of old. This disease of the bubonic plague spread to the Imperial City in the 15 th indiction. All of a sudden, without visible cause, there appeared many oily crosslets upon men's garments, on the altar cloths of churches, and on hangings.

The mysteriousness of this presage inspired great sorrow and despondency among the people. Then God's wrath started destroying not only the inhabitants of the City, but also those of all its outskirts. Many men had hallucinations and, being in ecstasy, imagined to be in the company of certain strangers of terrible aspect who, as it were, addressed in friendly fashion those they met and conversed with them. Taking note of their conversation, they later reported it. They also saw the same men entering houses, killing some of the inmates, and wounding others with the sword. Most of what they said came to pass just as they had seen it.

Nicephorus p138 : http://books.google.be/books?id=ObV9x85hLxEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr#v=onepage&q=plague&f=false

Frightful portents were suddenly to be seen: cruciform markings appeared on men's garments and holy cloths, upon doors and door posts, and these phenomena aroused in everyone great fear and consternation as if they were foreshadowing an instant doom.

GOT:

Book III (61)
After the slaughter among the barbarians had an end, strange things appeared in this year, such as cross signs on many garments. At their sight most of them were seized by a salutary fear, they feared harm and did largely penance for their sins. There were some who thought it was a disease infestation of clothes because a subsequent leprosy had struck down many mortals. But the wiser announced that the sign of the cross meant welfare and victory, and to this we also faithfully agree.
Book III (62)
At this time even the emperor (Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor - 958?) himself fell ill,...

 

[panca kanga]

Re: Historical Events Database

Just to quickly interject... I suppose you have noted the similarity in the story of these marks which have sometimes appeared on the walls before the advent of plague and the biblical (Exodus 12) story of The Passover with the door posts marked before the Tenth Plague? It struck me as curious.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Let's be sure to put "unusual marks appear" in the keywords on all these entries.

In the case of the Exodus, the people were told to sacrifice a lamb and smear its blood on the doorposts.