Historical Events Database - History

Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig, I know that item 156 is an early entry, but since we've discussed it, perhaps it would be a good idea to go back and put the additional entries that are now contained in the additional remarks box, as separate entries of their own?

Also, I've changed the name of the author to Count Marcellinus from Marcellinus Comes. There is a significant reason for being consistent in our use of the names of the authors and titles of the chronicles. We will be pulling out separate data on the various chroniclers and chronicles themselves so as to compare one to another; it will make this process a lot easier if every chronicler gets his own entry and we are consistent with names and titles.

I'm back to processing Gregory of Tours and Paul the Deacon today so we'll be seeing some of that very darkest of times get some shape, assuming that any of it is valid (and I think it is, though either Gregory or his redactor was VERY imaginative!)
 
Re: Historical Events Database

The database is looking good so far!

I've looked for duplicates in the Author names but could not find any. This is good since later we can draw separate graphs for each author and maybe we can correlate 'spikes' on the graph, to identify who contributed to the 'historical gap'.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig, another interesting item you entered that could use some modification:

#156. The text says:

Vesuvius the volcanic moutain of Campania, roared with internal fires as it spat out boiling debris and nocturnal darkness overshadowed the day, and it showered the whole surface of Europe with fine particles of dust. The Byzantines celebrate the memory of this fearful ash on 6 November each year.

That should get a second entry as a dust veil event, location: Europe; keyword: Vesuvius.

Also, the additional chroniclers cited for this event should get their own entries.

Chron Pasch, p. 97 :
"From divine wrath, an earthquake, Constantinople suffered it second affliction."

Theophanes the Confessor, op.cit., p. 193 :
"In this year there was a terrifying earthquake in Constantinople on 25 September of the 1st indiction, and many churches, houses, and porticoes collapsed to the ground and countless numbers of people were buried. The globe of the statue in the Forum also fell and so did the statue of Theodosios the elder, the one on the column of the Tauros, and also the inner walls for a considerable distance. The earthquake lasted a long time, so that the city began to stink."

478. 40.3 N, 26.6 E, magnitude 7, intensity IX. According to the excerpta by the Great Chronographer, in the reign of Zeno, a strong earthquake damaged, in the area of Hellespont, most of the cities of Abydos and Lampsacos. In Thrace, it reduced Callipole and Sestos to ruins as well as most of Tenedos. Fifty towers of the Long Walls were also demolished and all those who had fled there were buried in them. In the area around Sestos a sort of mud welled up from the earth and immediately became stiff and solid (Schreiner, 1975; Guidoboni et al., 1994). (reference #4408)
See http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/nndc/struts/results?eq_0=5888&t=101650&s=13&d=22,26,13,12&nd=display
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Ya'll take a look at entry 928 to see how I have justified the dating of the event.

That this confused text was actually in Gregory of Tours "history" and it was probably from information gleaned from an Eastern chronicle, is highly suspicious.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig, I know that item 156 is an early entry, but since we've discussed it, perhaps it would be a good idea to go back and put the additional entries that are now contained in the additional remarks box, as separate entries of their own?

Laura, I'm sorry, and probably I missed something, but we have never discussed the earthquake in 478. What's the problem with this event?

Also, I've changed the name of the author to Count Marcellinus from Marcellinus Comes. There is a significant reason for being consistent in our use of the names of the authors and titles of the chronicles. We will be pulling out separate data on the various chroniclers and chronicles themselves so as to compare one to another; it will make this process a lot easier if every chronicler gets his own entry and we are consistent with names and titles.

I'm consistent, I have always used Marcellinus Comes and never used Count Marcellinus, it's his name in every languages.

Also, the additional chroniclers cited for this event should get their own entries.

Why? They all say the same thing.

That should get a second entry as a dust veil event, location: Europe; keyword: Vesuvius.

Ok.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

As ya'll can see, I'm easily distracted. An hour ago I made an entry for the year 484 - an otherwise unspecified earthquake - from GoT. I then turned to the next marker in the book... II.24. It begins:

In the days of Bishop Sidonius there was a great famine in Burgundy... blah blah.

So, I thought I'd grab a quick paragraph about Sidonius for the additional background notes. At that point, I was reminded that there is a book of letters by same which I actually have, but haven't gone through carefully to this point. But there was a link to an online translation. I took a look. Okay, I copied all the text and notes etc into a Word doc to save for later perusal, but just before closing the document, I did a quick search for "earthquake" and this is the letter that came up first:

BOOK VII
I.
To the Lord Bishop Mamertus
A.D. 474

[1] RUMOUR has it that the Goths have occupied Roman soil; {this might give us the date} our unhappy Auvergne is always their gateway on every such incursion. It is our fate to furnish fuel to the fire of a peculiar hatred, for, by Christ's aid, we are the sole obstacle to the fulfilment of their ambition to extend their frontiers to the Rhone, and so hold all the country between that river, the Atlantic, and the Loire. Their menacing power has long pressed us hard; it has already swallowed up whole tracts of territory round us, and threatens to swallow more. [2] We mean to resist with spirit, though we know our peril and the risks which we incur. But our trust is not in our poor walls impaired by fire, or in our rotting palisades, or in our ramparts worn by the breasts of the sentries, as they lean on them in continual watch. Our only present help we find in those Rogations1 which you introduced; and this is the reason why the people of Clermont refuse to recede, though terrors surge about them on every side. By inauguration and institution of these prayers we are already new initiates; and if so far we have effected less than you have, our hearts are affected equally with yours. [3]


For it is not unknown to us by what portents and |96 alarms the city entrusted to you by God was laid desolate at the time when first you ordained this form of prayer. Now it was earthquake, shattering the outer palace walls with frequent shocks; now fire, piling mounds of glowing ash upon proud houses fallen in ruin; now, amazing spectacle! wild deer grown ominously tame, making their lairs in the very forum. You saw the city being emptied of its inhabitants, rich and poor taking to flight.

But you resorted in our latter day to the example shown of old in Nineveh, that you at least might not discredit the divine warning by the spectacle of your despair. [4] And, indeed, you of all men had been least justified in distrusting the providence of God, after the proof of it vouchsafed to your own virtues.

Once, in a sudden conflagration, your faith burned stronger than the flames. In full sight of the trembling crowd, you stood forth all alone to stay them, and lo! the fire leapt back before you, a sinuous beaten fugitive. It was miracle, a formidable thing, unseen before and unexampled; the element which naturally shrinks from nothing, retired in awe at your approach. [5]

You therefore first enjoined a fast upon a few members of our sacred order, denouncing gross offences, announcing punishment, promising relief. You made it clear that if the penalty of sin was nigh, so also was the pardon; you proclaimed that by frequent prayer the menace of coming desolation might be removed. You taught that it was by water of tears rather than water of rivers that the obstinate and raging fire could best be extinguished, and by firm faith the threatening shock of earthquake stayed. [6]

The multitude of the lowly forthwith followed your counsel, and this |97 influenced persons of higher rank, who had not scrupled to abandon the town, and now were not ashamed to return to it. By this devotion God was appeased, who sees into all hearts; your fervent prayers were counted to you for salvation; they became an ensample for your fellow citizens, and a defence about you all, for after those days there were neither portents to alarm, nor visitations to bring disaster.

We of Clermont know that all these ills befell your people of Vienne before the Rogations, and have not befallen them since; and therefore it is that we are eager to follow the lead of so holy a guide, beseeching your Beatitude from your own pious lips to give us the advocacy of those prayers now known to us by the examples which you have transmitted. [7] Since the Confessor Ambrose discovered the remains of Gervasius and Protasius, it has been granted to you alone in the West to translate the relics of two martyrs----all the holy body of Ferreolus, and the head of our martyr Julian,, which once the executioner's gory hand brought to the raging persecutor from the place of testimony.1 It is only fair, then, in compensation for the loss of this hallowed relic, that some part of your patronage should come to us from Vienne, since a part of our patronal saint has migrated thither. Deign to hold us in remembrance, my Lord Bishop. |98

Now I just need to figure out WHEN he was talking about.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig said:
Zadig, I know that item 156 is an early entry, but since we've discussed it, perhaps it would be a good idea to go back and put the additional entries that are now contained in the additional remarks box, as separate entries of their own?

Laura, I'm sorry, and probably I missed something, but we have never discussed the earthquake in 478. What's the problem with this event?

We discussed that we need to put all entries separate, a few posts back.

Zadig said:
Also, I've changed the name of the author to Count Marcellinus from Marcellinus Comes. There is a significant reason for being consistent in our use of the names of the authors and titles of the chronicles. We will be pulling out separate data on the various chroniclers and chronicles themselves so as to compare one to another; it will make this process a lot easier if every chronicler gets his own entry and we are consistent with names and titles.

I'm consistent, I have always used Marcellinus Comes and never used Count Marcellinus, it's his name in every languages.

You misunderstood. I mean that it should be changed TO Count Marcellinus. Marcellinus Comes is not his name in English.

Zadig said:
Also, the additional chroniclers cited for this event should get their own entries.

Why? They all say the same thing.

You must have missed the discussion about this and the reason we decided to change the rule on that.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Laura, just to let you know.

IN CHRONICLE OF THE FALL, you said:

591

Year 9 of Mauricianus … On the same day, there was an eclipse of the sun, and there was darkness on the 10th of 'Adar (March), from the third to the sixth hour. Everyone said that the sun was obscured because of the massacre of the monks, servants of Christ.
On the 2nd of Nisan (April), there was a violent earthquake, many cities and countries were knocked over and buried their inhabitants. Earth boiled and split.
There was bubonic plague and tumors. In the imperial city, there was a great plague. The number of victims [who could be counted] reached the number of 3,180,000. Patriarch John of Constantinople, died in this plague. The plague raged in Bithynia and throughout Asia. (MtS, Book X – Chapter XXIII – P. 373)

592

The following year, there was no rain, and there was a burning wind and a blazing drought throughout all Syria and Palestine, olive and other trees were dessicated. (MtS, Book X – Chapter XXIII – P. 373)

593

The following year, the bruchus [aphid, a small parasitic insect] fell on Syria in quantities that had never been seen before, and destroyed the seeds and the fruits of trees. After three years, the eggs they had laid caused the ruin, and the famine worsened due to lack of resources. (MtS, Book X – Chapter XXIII – P. 373)
It’s not Year 9 of Mauricianus but Year 17 of Mauricianus (p372)

"En l’an 17 de Maurcianus, qui est l’an 910 des Grecs…"

So AG 910 = AD 599; 582 + 17 = 599.

So the earthquake was in 601, according to modern dating, not 591:

601-602 Kilikia; Syria. Surface faulting.

Sources– Ibn Batriq: A severe earthquake in the Greekt erritory. In Syria, many cities were destroyedand many persons were killed.

– Michael the Syrian: Like Ibn Batriq but indicate only «Greek territory».

– Chronicle of 1234: A great earthquake took place in Syria and many cities were destroyed.

– Guidoboni et al. (1994): 601-602, Cilicia and Syria IX ≤ I ≤ XI, with surface faulting. Towards the third hour of the day, there was a violent earthquake in the territory of Rum [Cillicia] destroying many cities in Syria and Cillicia, and killing a large number of people (Ibn Batriq).

On 2 Nisan [April], in the year of 599, a destructive earthquake affected towns and villages burying their inhabitants, for the earth boiled and split open (Michael the Syrian). There was a great earthquake in Syria in 599, on Monday 19 Canun II [January], and many cities were laid waste (Chronicle of 1234).

See also, Earthquakes in the Mediterranean and Middle East A MULTIDISCIPLINARY STUDY OF SEISMICITY UP TO 1900
Nicholas Ambraseys p 217.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Address Pierre about the translations of Michael the Syrian.

Additionally, you may also wish to read the attached paper about regnal dating in the event such issues come into question and special considerations might apply.

However, you are doing exactly what you should be: checking and double-checking dates and all other details. As noted, the "Chronicle of the fall" is a rough, first draft of a MS that I only shared in its incomplete, un-edited/un-checked state, to give everyone working on the project an idea of what is wanted. Nothing from that draft should be entered in the database without checking.

As I have noted, when making entries in the database, I sometimes spend an hour or more on a single entry because I'm checking the context, double-checking the dates (if possible) or trying to find any supporting documentation. I also try to check spelling in the text, especially if an OCR source is used where many errors can be found, not to mention the errors I make while typing if I am transcribing directly. So, it will be good if you will do the same.

This highlights the problems with text transmission down through the centuries, too, by the way, and we don't want to contribute to such errors ourselves.
 

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Re: Historical Events Database

Shijing, I'm going to see if I can get at least the first hundred pages of Kronk scanned for you since it seems to have better information than the text you are using (the Archaeoastronomy thing).
 
Re: Historical Events Database

It’s not Year 9 of Mauricianus but Year 17 of Mauricianus (p372)

You are right. I checked book X, Chapter XXIII of MtS and indeed this event occurred on year 17 of Mauricianus (and not year 9). Mea Culpa :-[

I made the mistake because on the same page (373 on my version) but on the right column, instead of the left column, year 9 of Mauricianus is mentioned. But in MtS you don't skip from left to right column and then turn the page. Each left column follows the previous one and then when you reach the end of the chapter you start reading all the right columns one after the other.

That's a very good example of how important it is to double check each entry, make sure about the dates, the source, the context, the keywords, etc.

So thank you for finding this mistake. :)
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Bo said:
I merged the files and sent you the download link.

Thanks Bo -- Heimdallr, I just sent it to you. Can you take a look to see if you can compress it and then send it to Laura?

Laura said:
Shijing, I'm going to see if I can get at least the first hundred pages of Kronk scanned for you since it seems to have better information than the text you are using (the Archaeoastronomy thing).

OK, thanks in advance for that Laura. I've been keeping Archaeoastronomy and Yeomans (1991) open side-by-side and merging them in the database entries since they treat mostly the same data (Archaeoastronomy improves on Yeomans in one way by correcting some of Ho's dating mistakes). I can start merging Kronk together with these, or use Kronk instead -- let me know what you think is best (and I'll have a better idea too once I have a chance to look at it if you're able to send it).
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Shijing said:
OK, thanks in advance for that Laura. I've been keeping Archaeoastronomy and Yeomans (1991) open side-by-side and merging them in the database entries since they treat mostly the same data (Archaeoastronomy improves on Yeomans in one way by correcting some of Ho's dating mistakes). I can start merging Kronk together with these, or use Kronk instead -- let me know what you think is best (and I'll have a better idea too once I have a chance to look at it if you're able to send it).

Comparing and merging is good when possible and the subject lends itself to such treatment. I notice that Kronk refers to the "bushy" stars as "sparkling" stars. I notice that these "sparkling" stars seem to be connected to dramatic events on earth and I'm wondering about this, if it will hold true throughout.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Laura said:
Comparing and merging is good when possible and the subject lends itself to such treatment. I notice that Kronk refers to the "bushy" stars as "sparkling" stars. I notice that these "sparkling" stars seem to be connected to dramatic events on earth and I'm wondering about this, if it will hold true throughout.

That's nice that some correlations are already starting to appear -- it'll be very interesting to see if they hold. FWIW, Archaeoastronomy has a section on meteor showers which is separate from but equal in size to the comets section. I added a few of the early entries from that section a couple weeks ago, but have been focusing on the comets section since then since that's what corresponds to Yeomans' data.
 

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