I'm definitely one of those that has a tendency of ruminating and overanalyzing things WAY too often, which often causes me to feel anxiety and disconnection from myself and the environment, so he gives some good practical advice to help with that.
Jordan Peterson on People Who Overanalyze (Or Overthink) and What To Do About It
- Thread starter Turgon
- Start date
Thanks for posting this, Turgon, really good short rundown!
The breakfast thing is really interesting! For years I didn't eat breakfast at all. Now for a few months I have made it a habit - against my"feeling of not wanting" - to eat a fairly substantial breakfast every morning before going off to work. And it seems to me, looking back, that it was a positive change. I seem to be more relaxed during the day.
The other thing I have been doing is not to drink my daily coffe until about 10 - 11am, in order not to drive my cortisol levels up. I think that has had a beneficial effect too.
That only leaves sports and lifting of heavy things to incorporate in my daily life, which I have been inconsitent in doing.
The alcohol thing is also interesting - I don't seem to get the "benefit" mentioned by the questioner. I feel rather down after a glass or two, so I have mostly cut this out of my life, apart from some social interactions, where drinking a glass is expected (or on long-haul flights to facilitate sleeping).
I think that I fit the category that he mentioned - my overactive mind is probably related to anxiety. I scored very high in the Big-5 test I did a while ago. I'm looking forward to Peterson's version, once it's up online. I'll be keen to see whether things have changed by implementing these few things mentioned above.
The breakfast thing is really interesting! For years I didn't eat breakfast at all. Now for a few months I have made it a habit - against my"feeling of not wanting" - to eat a fairly substantial breakfast every morning before going off to work. And it seems to me, looking back, that it was a positive change. I seem to be more relaxed during the day.
The other thing I have been doing is not to drink my daily coffe until about 10 - 11am, in order not to drive my cortisol levels up. I think that has had a beneficial effect too.
That only leaves sports and lifting of heavy things to incorporate in my daily life, which I have been inconsitent in doing.
The alcohol thing is also interesting - I don't seem to get the "benefit" mentioned by the questioner. I feel rather down after a glass or two, so I have mostly cut this out of my life, apart from some social interactions, where drinking a glass is expected (or on long-haul flights to facilitate sleeping).
I think that I fit the category that he mentioned - my overactive mind is probably related to anxiety. I scored very high in the Big-5 test I did a while ago. I'm looking forward to Peterson's version, once it's up online. I'll be keen to see whether things have changed by implementing these few things mentioned above.
nicklebleu said:
The breakfast portion stood out for me too! I've always ate breakfast 4-6 hours after waking up. I think in some circles they call it lunch.
So that is one of the first things I've started doing since seeing the video. Having a big meal within an hour of waking. So I'll see how things go over the next few weeks with that. But even Dr. Kruse talks about the need to eat a big breakfast 30 minutes within waking up, so for those who have issues with overanalysis/overthinking, this might help reset a few things. At least give it a go for a couple of weeks and see if you're calmer in general. nicklebleu said:
Hmm, I think this depends on the mood your already in beforehand. But when I used to drink regularly, it did soothe anxiety and overanalysis. So on the one hand I can very much relate to the questioner in the video discussing how alcohol can shut off the constant chatter, but it's just way too easy to fall into a pattern of relying and becoming dependent on it, and with all the information out there about the long term effects, just doesn't seem worth it for that reason alone.
A new video from the Joe Rogan podcast - featuring an interview with Jordan Peterson and Evergreen State College Professor Bret Weintstein.
edit: Sorry, meant to post this in the other JP thread.
edit: Sorry, meant to post this in the other JP thread.
Thank you for sharing this video by J.P., Turgon. I tend to over-analyze or over-think things too much as well, especially if it regards social contexts or when it comes to compiling a post in the forum (okay, that can be also counted as a social context ;)). As for the breakfast, I also have a tendency to have it too late or even skip it altogether. And it could be much bigger either. Same goes with getting up the same time every day.
When I had times when those patterns (getting up + breakfast) were more regular, then I felt more energized and calmer throughout the day. So, this is a close call to get back into this habit as well.
I also formerly used to drink alcohol when participating in social gatherings. It helped to alleviate my social anxiety in group contacts and helped me to relax and to be able to interact more freely instead of feeling constrained. Because I then did not think too much about how others might perceive me, about their (possible) reactions to me etc. And I agree with you, Turgon, that the effect of the alcohol depends on the mood that exists before. When I went to a party in a moody state, the alcohol just seemed to exacerbate it, which then led to rumination.
As for the calming effect of alcohol, I read years ago that it mimics GABA (if I remember correctly). If it was on the forum or on SOTT I don't know. A search that I just did on this for SOTT turned up an article about a study which examined the similar effects of alcohol and oxytocin, which can also be calming: Study: Alcohol and oxytocin work on brain in similar ways
This stood out for me:
For me this also highlights again the importance of EE and any other meditative practice which can bring relief to overactive thoughts as well as bring about more focus. So that the mind can concentrate on that which makes sense at a certain point in time instead of getting lost in too much rumination / thinking.
EDIT: addition to quote in blue
When I had times when those patterns (getting up + breakfast) were more regular, then I felt more energized and calmer throughout the day. So, this is a close call to get back into this habit as well.
Turgon said:
I also formerly used to drink alcohol when participating in social gatherings. It helped to alleviate my social anxiety in group contacts and helped me to relax and to be able to interact more freely instead of feeling constrained. Because I then did not think too much about how others might perceive me, about their (possible) reactions to me etc. And I agree with you, Turgon, that the effect of the alcohol depends on the mood that exists before. When I went to a party in a moody state, the alcohol just seemed to exacerbate it, which then led to rumination.
As for the calming effect of alcohol, I read years ago that it mimics GABA (if I remember correctly). If it was on the forum or on SOTT I don't know. A search that I just did on this for SOTT turned up an article about a study which examined the similar effects of alcohol and oxytocin, which can also be calming: Study: Alcohol and oxytocin work on brain in similar ways
This stood out for me:
For me this also highlights again the importance of EE and any other meditative practice which can bring relief to overactive thoughts as well as bring about more focus. So that the mind can concentrate on that which makes sense at a certain point in time instead of getting lost in too much rumination / thinking.
EDIT: addition to quote in blue
s-kur
Jedi Council Member
Thanks Turgon!
I found it very useful to have a large breakfast because also that food reduces - or takes morning high cortisol on itself, thus it doesn't affect so much other systems.
Also I like when large part of the morning is only mine, when I can collect all the stuff in my had and to order it. Just to listen myself to feel what's going on inside and how to deal with it
I think that my part on this overanalyzing stuff is just uncertainity and diffidence(=>anxiety), while we really can't avoid mistakes and predict future so I try just to do things and not to overanalyze when I recall the rule.
Being in the-out-of-doors where you have no associations with environmemnt is another trick that works for me, so I just have no triggers for ruminating :)
I found it very useful to have a large breakfast because also that food reduces - or takes morning high cortisol on itself, thus it doesn't affect so much other systems.
Also I like when large part of the morning is only mine, when I can collect all the stuff in my had and to order it. Just to listen myself to feel what's going on inside and how to deal with it
I think that my part on this overanalyzing stuff is just uncertainity and diffidence(=>anxiety), while we really can't avoid mistakes and predict future so I try just to do things and not to overanalyze when I recall the rule.
Being in the-out-of-doors where you have no associations with environmemnt is another trick that works for me, so I just have no triggers for ruminating :)
Thanks Turgon for bringing it up from my side as well!
I think Peterson has indeed some interesting and important points there. I also think he is right that food, and especially enough in the morning, can have a great effect on how much you can control that tendency and how much it can take over.
Another thing I noticed, at least for me personally, is, that this over thinking tendency has indeed a lot to do with anxiety. I also noticed that there is a certain point until one can still quite easily not "let it take over". After that point is missed, it is much harder to calm the over active mind down again. For example, it is not uncommon that I find myself starting to over think and micro analyze stuff, and when I allow myself to let this go on for too long, it is very easy to get completely identified/obsessed with it. The scary thing is, when one is at the point of obsession, everything else important around you starts to fade in the background, as though that thing you are over analyzing about, is all that matters now and is of importance and everything else is unimportant.
Usually when I notice that something I'm thinking about can easily go over board, I have to consciously say to myself "you will stop thinking/doing that very soon and concentrate on (and do) something else". If I don't do that and ruminate too long, it is hard to get out of it again. I also think it has a lot to do with a disciplined mind (or rather the lack thereof). Basically it is thoughts that run amok.
A couple of strategies that I try to implement to better handle that tendency are, which could be summarized to shift focus/attention/actions:
- regular meditations
- doing a cold shower when it gets over board or starts to get obsessive an preferably read something afterwards or meditate
- deliberately trying to closely read/follow/see what others are going through and how I can help them, and then doing it, even if it is just a couple of words of encouragement. The forum is a great way to do that!
- daily physical and mental work. A daily job is definitively a good thing there as well as work on forum related stuff!
- deliberately force myself to read a book for at least one hour with as much attention to the content as possible
All of the above can work like magic to calm down this ruminating over analyzing tendency.
I haven't quite figured it out yet, but I think that that tendency could also be described in wrong centers taking over the actions of another. The sex centre in particular could play a part here, or not. And/or the thinking centre taking over another centre of rather the other way around?
Also noticed that this tendency has a lot to do with control and obsession. Something wants to to control how things play out in the future, by micro managing the present, so that nothing surprising can happen that could threaten "it" in the future.
I think Peterson has indeed some interesting and important points there. I also think he is right that food, and especially enough in the morning, can have a great effect on how much you can control that tendency and how much it can take over.
Another thing I noticed, at least for me personally, is, that this over thinking tendency has indeed a lot to do with anxiety. I also noticed that there is a certain point until one can still quite easily not "let it take over". After that point is missed, it is much harder to calm the over active mind down again. For example, it is not uncommon that I find myself starting to over think and micro analyze stuff, and when I allow myself to let this go on for too long, it is very easy to get completely identified/obsessed with it. The scary thing is, when one is at the point of obsession, everything else important around you starts to fade in the background, as though that thing you are over analyzing about, is all that matters now and is of importance and everything else is unimportant.
Usually when I notice that something I'm thinking about can easily go over board, I have to consciously say to myself "you will stop thinking/doing that very soon and concentrate on (and do) something else". If I don't do that and ruminate too long, it is hard to get out of it again. I also think it has a lot to do with a disciplined mind (or rather the lack thereof). Basically it is thoughts that run amok.
A couple of strategies that I try to implement to better handle that tendency are, which could be summarized to shift focus/attention/actions:
- regular meditations
- doing a cold shower when it gets over board or starts to get obsessive an preferably read something afterwards or meditate
- deliberately trying to closely read/follow/see what others are going through and how I can help them, and then doing it, even if it is just a couple of words of encouragement. The forum is a great way to do that!
- daily physical and mental work. A daily job is definitively a good thing there as well as work on forum related stuff!
- deliberately force myself to read a book for at least one hour with as much attention to the content as possible
All of the above can work like magic to calm down this ruminating over analyzing tendency.
I haven't quite figured it out yet, but I think that that tendency could also be described in wrong centers taking over the actions of another. The sex centre in particular could play a part here, or not. And/or the thinking centre taking over another centre of rather the other way around?
Also noticed that this tendency has a lot to do with control and obsession. Something wants to to control how things play out in the future, by micro managing the present, so that nothing surprising can happen that could threaten "it" in the future.
One thing i found useful to domesticate overthinking and overanalyzing is to consider thinking as a task that can be scheduled like any other task. Also, instead of denying a thought that runs aimlessly because of some energy source (emotional for instance) feeding it, one can divert it to a better outcome by channelizing it.
On scheduling, with some practice, one could decide whether it's time to think about a certain subject or to delay it to a specific time when more information is available, or a more appropriate emotional state is achieved for example. I think it's an extrapolation of Gurdjieff's advice to delay any response/reaction to the next day. Another trick, especially when those thoughts occur at night, is to rapidly write down an outline of the thinking with the idea or returning to it later. It relieves the burden of urgency to some extent.
Added:
There is however an important aspect to this trick/mind hack. One has to be honest about the scheduled thinking so that the "intellect" doesn't perceive it as being cheated or deceived. Otherwise, the overactive intellect will no calm down because it "learns" that the delaying/scheduling will not deliver what it has promised. It comes to observing the self (thoughts, feelings...) and optimizing the workings of the machine the more strategically possible. OSIT
On scheduling, with some practice, one could decide whether it's time to think about a certain subject or to delay it to a specific time when more information is available, or a more appropriate emotional state is achieved for example. I think it's an extrapolation of Gurdjieff's advice to delay any response/reaction to the next day. Another trick, especially when those thoughts occur at night, is to rapidly write down an outline of the thinking with the idea or returning to it later. It relieves the burden of urgency to some extent.
Added:
There is however an important aspect to this trick/mind hack. One has to be honest about the scheduled thinking so that the "intellect" doesn't perceive it as being cheated or deceived. Otherwise, the overactive intellect will no calm down because it "learns" that the delaying/scheduling will not deliver what it has promised. It comes to observing the self (thoughts, feelings...) and optimizing the workings of the machine the more strategically possible. OSIT
angelburst29
The Living Force
Kind of a "rant" but using Jordon Peterson as a springboard ...
No civilization fails or implodes until its time has come. When a civilization does actually collapse or implode, that happens precisely because it should happen - the civilization collapses or implodes ONLY when its internal contradictions have made it inviable. There is no "tragedy" - every civilization self-destructs precisely when it should.
The Irish Crimean: Jordan Peterson's liberal hysteria is a symptom, not the cure
http://www.fort-russ.com/2017/10/the-irish-crimean-jordan-petersons.html
So all these Jordan Peterson acolytes make me laugh - simply the fact that they're adopting this "all hands to the pump" siege-mentality is, in itself, pretty clear evidence that western civilization has historically reached its sell-by date.
They say "Oh, you want to destroy western civilization."
No, I don't - I will simply stand back and watch it self-destruct. Whether you're in favour of it or against it, its self-destruction is unavoidable at this point, and no amount of alt-right or liberal hysteria will change that.
And anyway, what we call "western civilization" didn't really exist before the industrial revolution. It doesn't really have much history behind it anyway. Before "western civilization" existed, there was "Europe" (a geo-strategic concept born during the 8th century). At the battle of Poitiers in 732, Charles Martel's court-scribes used a neologism to refer to his soldiers - "Europenses."
So, before something called "Western civilization" existed (18th century). there was "Europe" (8th century). Before "Europe," there was "Christendom."
What we call "western civilization" was never a continuation of "Christendom" or "Europe" - it was just a nihilistic replacement for European culture.
Welcome back to Eurasia, kids.
The Russians aren't "the barbarian hordes."
The f*cking Americans are "the barbarian hordes."
I could handle living in "Christendom" or in "Europe," but f*ck "the west."
So Jordan Peterson acolytes say "Oh, you monster, you want to destroy western civilization....."
No, I don't. It doesn't matter what I or you want - it's dying anyway.
After only 200 years, its time has come.
But I will just stand back and take a certain vindictive pleasure in watching its death-spiral.
Once "Europe" civilizationally synthesized with America to become "the west," people like me just lost interest. Once Europe became culturally and civilizationally coupled with America ("the west"), the guardians of Europe's heritage began to look eastward again.
No civilization fails or implodes until its time has come. When a civilization does actually collapse or implode, that happens precisely because it should happen - the civilization collapses or implodes ONLY when its internal contradictions have made it inviable. There is no "tragedy" - every civilization self-destructs precisely when it should.
The Irish Crimean: Jordan Peterson's liberal hysteria is a symptom, not the cure
http://www.fort-russ.com/2017/10/the-irish-crimean-jordan-petersons.html
So all these Jordan Peterson acolytes make me laugh - simply the fact that they're adopting this "all hands to the pump" siege-mentality is, in itself, pretty clear evidence that western civilization has historically reached its sell-by date.
They say "Oh, you want to destroy western civilization."
No, I don't - I will simply stand back and watch it self-destruct. Whether you're in favour of it or against it, its self-destruction is unavoidable at this point, and no amount of alt-right or liberal hysteria will change that.
And anyway, what we call "western civilization" didn't really exist before the industrial revolution. It doesn't really have much history behind it anyway. Before "western civilization" existed, there was "Europe" (a geo-strategic concept born during the 8th century). At the battle of Poitiers in 732, Charles Martel's court-scribes used a neologism to refer to his soldiers - "Europenses."
So, before something called "Western civilization" existed (18th century). there was "Europe" (8th century). Before "Europe," there was "Christendom."
What we call "western civilization" was never a continuation of "Christendom" or "Europe" - it was just a nihilistic replacement for European culture.
Welcome back to Eurasia, kids.
The Russians aren't "the barbarian hordes."
The f*cking Americans are "the barbarian hordes."
I could handle living in "Christendom" or in "Europe," but f*ck "the west."
So Jordan Peterson acolytes say "Oh, you monster, you want to destroy western civilization....."
No, I don't. It doesn't matter what I or you want - it's dying anyway.
After only 200 years, its time has come.
But I will just stand back and take a certain vindictive pleasure in watching its death-spiral.
Once "Europe" civilizationally synthesized with America to become "the west," people like me just lost interest. Once Europe became culturally and civilizationally coupled with America ("the west"), the guardians of Europe's heritage began to look eastward again.
angelburst29 said:
That was an incredibly puerile rant, not to mention self-contradictory and also quite historically ignorant of how complex the philosophical, religious, scientific, and commercial scene was in Europe that spawned the values of the Whigs and classical liberals. Why did you share this?
angelburst29
The Living Force
whitecoast said:That was an incredibly puerile rant, not to mention self-contradictory and also quite historically ignorant of how complex the philosophical, religious, scientific, and commercial scene was in Europe that spawned the values of the Whigs and classical liberals. Why did you share this?
For some of the same reasons that you mentioned aka "self-contradictory" and "quite historically ignorant".
For one, the author of the rant is totally ignorant of Jordan Peterson and his work, labels Peterson as a "liberal" and then goes into "a convulsion in over-analyzing history" blurring any foundations of truth. A disconnect from reality.
beetlemaniac
The Living Force
angelburst29 said:whitecoast said:That was an incredibly puerile rant, not to mention self-contradictory and also quite historically ignorant of how complex the philosophical, religious, scientific, and commercial scene was in Europe that spawned the values of the Whigs and classical liberals. Why did you share this?
For some of the same reasons that you mentioned aka "self-contradictory" and "quite historically ignorant".
For one, the author of the rant is totally ignorant of Jordan Peterson and his work, labels Peterson as a "liberal" and then goes into "a convulsion in over-analyzing history" blurring any foundations of truth. A disconnect from reality.
angelburst29, I think whitecoasts' point (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the thread was about the habit of overanalysis and JP's take on that. I suppose your share was somewhat related as it had something to do with JP, but I found it irrelevant to the thread in general.
Wow. I started off the post talking about breakfast and went into a lot of detail about why I don't like bacon, etc. when I could have just acknowledged the point about the high-protein breakfast and moved on. An example of overthinking right there. Also I find that I only start overthinking when I start typing. Otherwise, I don't really think at all! Or, in other words, I think I just use the System1 (fast thinking) instead of System2 (slow thinking).
I must have missed this thread when it was started originally, thanks for posting it Turgon. I too can relate to overanalysing things- I suspect it's also a reason why I struggle falling off to sleep easily. I wouldn't have consciously related it to anxiety but it makes sense. I'm not much of a drinker but when I do so socially it does tend to 'take the edge off'. We're currently in a heat wave, and it's hard to get up and want to stuff your face with a big breakfast but I will make a concerted effort to do so.
Arwenn said:
Same here. Especially when going to sleep, constant chatter and different topics running amok. Running with those thoughts really delays sleeping which causes erratic sleeping patterns to emerge. Becomes hard to stay consistent, waking up at different times feeling tired.
Couple of days ago, when going to sleep and the chatter would erupt I thought "Great! here we go again!". Then as it was taking steam, I tried to observe it and then stop it by thinking to myself what this time was for. It was sleeping time so I tried my best to affirm that I can't run with the chatter and needed sleep. Did this every time thoughts would try to run and it seemed to work, they died down and as a result I was able to fall asleep.
I used to eat breakfast long ago but stopped doing it because it upset my stomach. Didn't think too much about it other than that it was not for me. Looking back, it most likely had something to do with the quality of food that I was taking in morning (bread, cereal). Breakfast was substituted with coffee which I now have taken a hard look at. This has led me to realize that I have unhealthy relationship to coffee. I drink too much of it daily and have started to make effort cutting down on it. That might also be partly behind the fact that I tend to overanalyze/overthink things which complicates daily life.
Don't really feel hungry during morning hours but looking at the vid and comments here I've decided to give it a go! Thank you for the link Turgon!
