Self Remembering

TheSpoon

Jedi
Working my way through ISOTM (currently chapter 9) and realised that my idea of self remembering is very much based in the intellectual centre as a dialog that goes something like:

"OK I'm awake. How do I feel emotionally....how does my body feel...OK, what's going on around me..."

And my consciousness seems to have a particular flavour about it; I remember the last time I was in that state and I feel "present" - like I've been working totally autonomously since that last time.

The trouble with that inner dialog is that
A) it's doubtful how much I'm able to take in any external objects when I'm busy chatting to myself.
B) It's impossible to maintain when I talk to anyone.

Invariably any activity that requires me to concentrate (eg listening/talking) means I "blow" my state of self remembering - if indeed that's what it is.

I thought that self remembering was akin to "reflexive consciousness" that I'm come across in my Buddhist learnings, but now I'm trying to leave all that at the door, tip out my cup and enter with a beginner's mind.

So with that same "flavour" in mind, I'm stopping the dialog and trying to just "hold" the three centres, notice what they're doing.

Questions:

1. How can one self-remember with the emotional and motion centres without recognising that intellectually and verbalising it? Or do you have to verbalise an observation before it can be remembered?

2. When looking at an object, I recognise that I have an emotional reaction to it, but what am I looking for from the motion centre - an impulse to react physically to the object? A memory of the feeling of the object?

3. Any suggestions on being able to maintain a state of self remembering when the intellectual centre needs to take over eg answering a question?

I searched for previous threads on this topic and found the one from June 2006 by Marie very helpful - particularly EsoQuest's postings.

Cheers,
Peter
 
Hi Peter,
I'm certainly no guru but this is my observation. When I began self observing I had the same problem. Isn't this just the intellectual centre doing all the work?

I realized that instead of thinking about the movement center and the emotional center through the intellectual center I can be aware of those centers, feel them, and also be aware that the constant train of thought that is coming from the intellectual center is the intellectual center.

It was when I stopped thinking about what I was trying to think about and just started to recognize the constant chatter as the intellectual center that something really clicked. Like a light bulb of realization.
It was more of an awareness of the intellectual center rather than trying to interpret everything through that center, if you know what I mean?

It's hard to explain, but I think it is possible to observe while using the intellectual center. In the beginning I was verbalizing everything as well. The more I practice the more I seem to be aware of the centers without the need to verbalize everything.

Not sure if this helps in any way. I did have one of those 'Aah, that's how it works" moments on this very topic but I'm not sure if I'm communicating it very well.

Jeff.
 
Hello Peter,

Here are some possibilities.

The Spoon said:
1. How can one self-remember with the emotional and motion centres without recognising that intellectually and verbalising it? Or do you have to verbalise an observation before it can be remembered?
Why would you want to do this? All memories are emotional, intellectual, physical, and spiritual. It would be to your determent to feel thoughts that only the emotional or physical centers controlled. This is part of a major problem in the world, as people power up their auras and refuses to blend. Their emotions begin to control them.

To self remember, you would not necessarily have to verbalize, but you might have to learn how to pack info where you can find it depending on the weight you tag upon it. Learning how to weigh the observations and then applying knowledge and spirit will help. This needs to be done when the observation is made accounting for the emotional messages felt and their self manifestations.

The Spoon said:
2. When looking at an object, I recognise that I have an emotional reaction to it, but what am I looking for from the motion centre - an impulse to react physically to the object? A memory of the feeling of the object?
You should attempt a memory vibration of the whole message that is discerned through using your full hardware capabilities. This is going to be unique and may need to be returned and flown back to the bee hive in your mind. All flowers are pretty, even emotional, but their thoughts are useless outside the hive. The hive is representative in this case, of all your centers. In the hive, you have lots of holes that need packing and organizing.

The Spoon said:
3. Any suggestions on being able to maintain a state of self remembering when the intellectual centre needs to take over eg answering a question?
The intellectual center should never take over; all intelligent decisions carry with them some emotional feelings. You can only measure so quickly in your head. The more you realize that every thought you have is part of that emotional center, and the intellectual center, and through practice, and time, they can become friends. The more friends they become, the more you can self remember.

Also, it is possible that they can become tornado buddies [worm builders]. This is to watch for as this may be a mutation where memories only serve the centers in control.

There is an article posted on Sott today about gaming. Can you see the walleyed wonders?
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148541-The-Killing-Game-How-the-US-Army-uses-video-games-to-train-killer-American-children

I was reading a little more of your post and you said that you could not remember when talking to someone. You may be pushing the wall. It is not what people think of you that is important, it is what you [think] that is important. [does not work for psychopaths] If you realize this before talking, you will slow down your mind enough to realize it is not the spoon that bends, it is your mind that bends. You bend back and forth, and may even break. :) :)

This is one [idea] analogy of the spoon we all know about. I hope you have sense of humors.

Opps, JP posted before I responded, and reading the post, it makes sense. Practice.
 
The Spoon Wrote: "Any suggestions on being able to maintain a state of self remembering when the intellectual centre needs to take over eg answering a question?"

Yes, I have some suggestions. I suggest that you read Ouspensky's "The Psychology Of Man's Possible Evolution." which presents a very detailed definition of the esoteric meaning of "psychology", an analysis of the different centers of the machine, the need for self-remembering, pitfalls, essence and personality and much more.

You can buy the book or use the following link:

http://files.meetup.com/938723/TPOMPE.PDF

I was taught to keep a journal and observe each center individually. The observations for each center are to begin: I observe as a function of the moving instinctive center, (emotional center etc.) and then describe the resulting observations. The observations can be of the actions of parts of the body including visual and auditory perceptions, or emotional reactions to simuli. Do each center separately.

I was also taught to use the third person in the descriptions to prevent identification. The "I" that is the oberserver in the phrase "I observe as a function of the _____ center is the unified "I". It is this unified "I" that is observing the little 'i'" found in each of the centers.

The three centers we were instructed to observe were the moving/instinctive center, the emotional center, and the intellectual center.

Each center has its own intelligence and its own rate of speed: the fastest is the emotional center followed by the moving/instinctive center. The slowest is the intellectual center.

The irony is that the slowest center is observing the faster ones. For example, let's say that the moving/instinctive center has become conditioned to buy the newspaper on the way to work. One day, you decide that you don't want to buy it that day. Then you find yourself with the newspaper in your hand. Your instinctive/moving center bought the newspaper before the intellectual center could stop it!!!!

The emotional center is much more difficult to observe. Acting classes that teach how to creaatedifferent types of character through stance, walk, facial expressions provide an excellent opportunity to see how physicality and emotion work together. Voice workprovides a similar opportunity.

Shakespeare uses vowels and consonants to create character. Vowels are emotion. Consonants are energy. He uses rhythm. Classical Shakespearean actors are taught to count the beats in their lines. If the beat in a line is off rhythm, the emotions of the character are off.

Malevolent beings like the witches are given rhythms different than those of non-psychopathic humans. Magical beings like the fairies in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" have
rhythms different than those of witches. Nobles speak in iambic pentameter. Lovers are given rhyming couplets. Commoners are given prose.

Shakespeare knew that sound creates emotional responses, and each character has his/her own rhythms, sounds, and imagery.

Okay, so why all this long-winded digression into Shakespeare, acting, movement and voice?

How does it relate to Spoon's question?

The importance of making the physical and the intellectual work together is that between the two of them they have a chance to isolate the emotional which is incredibly fast. and the most difficult to harness.

In your work, try to link paricular muscular sensations, postures, tones of voice, breathing patterns to a particular emotion. When you do, you might be able ,by altering the physical manifestations, to change the emotional response.

That is if the slow intellectual center catches on to what is happening in the moment.

Alas, this is not often the case. If you can do it though, you can, I am told, you can change your machine and make it do the bidding of your unified "I".

Good luck to to you Spoon, and thanks for asking the question. It is just the work I need to begin to do again myself to accomplish my aims.
 
webglider said:
Malevolent beings like the witches are given rhythms different than those of non-psychopathic humans.
Hello Webglider, is this quote from the Ouspensky book you mention? Is there more info? The rest of your comments seem very helpful.
 
Peter wrote:

1. How can one self-remember with the emotional and motion centres without recognising that intellectually and verbalising it? Or do you have to verbalise an observation before it can be remembered?
I don’t have time at the moment to elaborate so I’ll make my answers brief. I’ll try to answer your questions based on my own limited experience and understanding. First thing I would advise you to do is just continue reading about these ideas and get familiar with them without trying to 'do' anything. Rather, note how you cannot 'do.' Read the book already suggested on this thread and you might also want to read the John Shirley book recommended here:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.msg58469#msg58469.

I would also advise you to not try to do anything (such as trying to ‘self remember') apart from just making observations of your different inner psychological states. See them, feel them, and get a ‘taste’ of them. Note how they change and what triggers them, both externally and internally. Just shine some light on them, as best as you are able, while you study the ideas of Gurdjieff. Then, later, perhaps, you might know in what direction to go. But if you try to force and change anything with incomplete knowledge of your machine then one thing will change for the better and 10 things will change for the worse.

2. When looking at an object, I recognize that I have an emotional reaction to it, but what am I looking for from the motion centre - an impulse to react physically to the object? A memory of the feeling of the object?
Don't get too analytical about it. What you say above is based on reactions. It's based on like and dislike. Note how helpless you are and how your reactions have a hold on you. Note how you project what is within yourself outwardly and note how you think that these external things are responsible for the inner states you experience, when in fact, it is these inner states that are, nevertheless, still within you. Make ‘contact’ with these inner states by observing and sensing them and you will start to be in more contact with yourself. See how you project them onto people and things. Note how your attention is absorbed by these reactions from your ego that thinks its in control. These are but examples But don’t get analytical about it. You are just observing here and gathering data. This is the beginning to creating within you an impartial observer.

Any suggestions on being able to maintain a state of self remembering when the intellectual centre needs to take over eg answering a question?
See answer #1 (sorry for being so blunt but I gotta go now)
 
Ockham's response to my former post is centered around the following quote:

webglider wrote:
Malevolent beings like the witches are given rhythms different than those of non-psychopathic humans.

Hello Webglider, is this quote from the Ouspensky book you mention? Is there more info? The rest of your comments seem very helpful.

Dear Ockham:

The quote is NOT from "The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution". It is based on an understanding of Elizabethan cosmology.

In brief, the Elizabethans everything in the universe into realms. Each realm had its own hierarchy in which every element of the realm is ranked. Using the celestial realm as an example, and imagining a vertical column, God is at the top, and the Devil is at the bottom. In between are all the angels and other beings of this realm in order of rank. The same goes for the human realm, the animal realm, the fish real, the tree realm etc.

I am now going to arrange a sampling the realms horizontally in order of importance going from left to right: Then I will provide from memory the most and least important member of each realm under its proper category. If memory fails, I will use a question mark.

Celestial Human Animal Bird Fish Insect Tree Flower Mineral
GOD KING LION EAGLE WHALE BEE OAK ROSE GOLD
DEVIL ? MOLE ? ? ? ? ? LEAD

Although this chart is very incomplete, I can still use it to explain correspondences between the different realms. For example God in the celestial realm is equivalent to Gold in the mineral realm. Now, if the Devil gets out of its place in the celestial realm, IT WILL THROW EVERYTHING OUT OF ITS PLACE IN EVERY REALM AND CREATE CHAOS.

This concept is found everywhere in Shakespeare, and it is given expression in the speech given by Ulysses in "Troilus and Cressida".

As you read it, notice how all the other realms are thrown into Chaos when the planets deviate from their proper order: (Bear with me, I will answer Ockham's question soon. I'm just putting the answer into context.)

The heavens themselves, the planets, and this centre,
Observe degree, priority, and place,
Infixture [fixity], course, proportion, season, form,
Office, and custom, in all line of order;
And therefore is the glorious planet Sol
In noble eminence enthron'd and spher'd
Amidst the other, whose med'cinable eye
Corrects the ill aspects of planets evil,
And posts, like the commandment of a king,
Sans check, to good and bad. But when the planets
In evil mixture to disorder wander,
What plagues and what portents, what mutiny,
What raging of the sea, shaking of earth,
Commotion in the winds! Frights, changes, horrors,
Divert and crack, rend and deracinate,
The unity and married calm of states
Quite from their fixture! O, when degree is shak'd,
Which is the ladder of all high designs,
The enterprise is sick! How could communities,
Degrees in schools, and brotherhoods in cities,
Peaceful commerce from dividable shores,
The primogenity and due of birth,
Prerogative of age, crowns, sceptres, laurels,
But by degree, stand in authentic place?
Take but degree away, untune that string,
And hark what discord follows! Each thing melts
In mere oppugnancy: the bounded waters
Should lift their bosoms higher than the shores,
And make a sop of all this solid globe;
Strength should be lord of imbecility,
And the rude son should strike his father dead;
Force should be right; or, rather, right and wrong,
Between whose endless jar justice resides,
Should lose their names, and so should justice too.
Then everything includes itself in power,
Power into will, will into appetite;
And appetite, an universal wolf,
So doubly seconded with will and power,
Must make perforce an universal prey,
And last eat up himself.


Notice how Shakespeare describes the decay of government:

"Then everything includes itself in power,
Power into will, will into appetite;
And appetite an universal wolf,
So doubly seconded with will and power,
Must make perforce an universal prey,
And last eat himself."

The above quote describes the complete breakdown of society which is the situation created by the witches in "Macbeth".

The basic structure in Shakespeare's verse is the iambic pentameter line. The line is composed by ten beats broken into five iambs, (equivalent to five measures of music).

The natural rhythm of each iamb is to have an unstressed beat followed by a stressed one.

IF THIS RHYTHM IS OFF, SOMETHING IS WRONG. The above speech, if examined closely, does not follow the natural rhythm. The beats are off. This makes sense for a speech that describes the collapse of a society into chaos.

Now let's turn to the witches.

Witches, by their allegiance to the Devil, are at the bottom of the celestial realm. Their job is to destroy the natural order. The following is an example of their rhythm:

FIRST WITCH:
When shall we three meet again?
In thunder, ligntning, or in rain?

SECOND WITCH:
When the hurly-burly's done,
When the battle's lost and won.

THIRD WITCH:
That will be ere the set of sun.

FIRST WITCH:
Where the place?

SECOND WITCH:
Upon the heath

THIRD WITCH:
There to meet with Macbeth.

The witches than call their servants, a cat and a frog and cast the following spell:

Fair is foul and foul is fair,
Hover through the fog and filthy air.

Notice the sing-songy rhythm that does not follow a particular pattern?

Language, like everything else in Elizabethan society, is a realm unto itself. The iambic pentameter line is given to those with nobility in them, even if they're evil. Caliban from The Tempest, the son of a witch, is given iambic pentameter verse to speak.

Commoners are given prose.

Witches seem to have no predictable rhythm because they, by definition, don't follow any natural patterns.

While I'm on the subject of witches, I'll point out that the rhetorical device that Shakespeare uses for the spell is that of "chiasmus". "Chiasmus is two corresponding pairs arranged in a parallel inverse order." (Shakespeare's Grammar/Rhetorical Devices: http://www.bardweb.net/grammar/02rhetoric.html).

What better way to show the inversion of the natural order than a rhetorical structure that reverses itself?

Now that we've touched a little on the language of witches, let's move to the major psychopath in the play: Macbeth.

Was Macbeth a psychopath before the influence of the witches? Was he of the right frequency to attract them?

Or did their frequency change his?

Macbeth is a hero who saved the kingdom in war. For this he is given a new title, Thane of Cawdor. This title places him fourth in line to the succession of the throne after the king, and the king's two sons. When Macbeth chooses to murder the king, he gives himself to the witches and his language begins to mirror theirs.

Yet Macbeth was once noble, and in his language, some of that nobility remains in the close relationship of the structure of his speech to the iambic pentameter line:

Here is an example of Macbeth Act III scene 2, giving expression to pure psychopathic images. Notice that he is willing to unleash chaos upon the kingdom in exchange for peace of mind.

"But let the frame of things disjoint, both the worlds
suffer,
Ere we will eat our meal in fear, and sleep
In the affliction of these terrible dreams
That shake us nightly,"

Macbeth is prepared to murder his subjects indiscriminantly, if murder will ease his mind from his worst fear - the fear of being caught One murder leads to another in a typical psychopathic boutof destruction which ends when he himself is killed.

But through all of that, even when his mind is filled with images of scorpions and beetles, his language is elevated because it is based on the iambic pentameter line. The beats are off, but the structure is there.

The play ends with a speech by Malcolm who is the rightful heir and therefore not a psychopath.

His lines adhere closely to the iambic pentameter standard. When there are a few extra beats, it's for emphasis not as a clue to disorder.

(I'll get back to this and post Malcolm's lines another time.)
 
webglider said:
...
Dear Ockham:

The quote is NOT from "The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution". It is based on an understanding of Elizabethan cosmology.
...
Wow. Ok. My impression was that Ockham was asking how that particular sentence related to Peter's original question and this thread as a whole, rather then an explanation of Elizabethan cosmology, as he stated the rest of your post was helpful but questioned this sentence.

Interesting nevertheless.

Jeff.
 
Jeff wrote:


Wow. Ok. My impression was that Ockham was asking how that particular sentence related to Peter's original question and this thread as a whole, rather then an explanation of Elizabethan cosmology, as he stated the rest of your post was helpful but questioned this sentence.

Interesting nevertheless.

Jeff.

I guess I got really carried away.

I forgot to connect the above post to theme of the thread.

It's my belief that the ability that Shakespeare has to create so many characters with so many different psychologies is because he must have done the work of self-remembering.

How could he not have had a unified "I' to be able to really SEE all the little "i"s of all the characters he creates and demonstrate the effect that each of the "i"s has on the social and political network of their situations?

I was recently involved in a production of "Coriolanus" with an amazing director and actors. It was amazing to watch the director and the cast identify how Shakespeare creates "programs" for so many of his characters to show how mechanical their behavior is. They leave the characters with no flexibility, no free will. And the choices they make leads of couse, to tragic consequences.

Not only does Shakespeare SEE the little "i"s and the programs, but he is able to choose the language he needs to reveal each individually to his audience.

If a director and the actors really understand THE WORK, the Elizabethan cosmology, Shakespeare's language, and the subliminal effects the sounds of the words have on the subconscious, they can create a production that will wake up their audiences and make them receptive to the WORK.

So, along with Ouspensky, Shakespeare is a good author to study about self-remembering.
 
webglider said:
It's my belief that the ability that Shakespeare has to create so many characters with so many different psychologies is because he must have done the work of self-remembering.
Or, perhaps, he just had a strong imagination.

webglider said:
How could he not have had a unified "I' to be able to really SEE all the little "i"s of all the characters he creates and demonstrate the effect that each of the "i"s has on the social and political network of their situations?
And why would the ability to write fiction indicate a 'unified I'?
 
anart said:
webglider said:
It's my belief that the ability that Shakespeare has to create so many characters with so many different psychologies is because he must have done the work of self-remembering.
Or, perhaps, he just had a strong imagination.
I don't think it matters whether he had a unified I or a genius level imagination. It mattered to him, but to us what matters is if reading or seeing the plays performed helps US identify different 'I's and here I think someone like Shakespeare can, because each play has so many different characters (as opposed to classic Greek tragedy). In other words, is Shakespeare "good to think with."

anart said:
webglider said:
How could he not have had a unified "I' to be able to really SEE all the little "i"s of all the characters he creates and demonstrate the effect that each of the "i"s has on the social and political network of their situations?
And why would the ability to write fiction indicate a 'unified I'?
The ability to write fiction probably doesn't but the ability to write fiction or drama at the level of Shakespeare might. Big difference. To write at that level requires a level of observation and grappling with the issues that might make it close in some sense to forging a unified 'I' and might help us to do so, I think.

Anyway, I found the digression interesting.
 
DonaldJ said:
The ability to write fiction probably doesn't but the ability to write fiction or drama at the level of Shakespeare might. Big difference.
Is it really objectively a 'big difference'? Considering the information we have about 'deep level projectors' - about how human 'creativity' is often directed or guided by things outside, and wholly unrelated, to the human creating it, I can see no reason to make a concrete jump from 'good art' to a singular 'I'. However, I'm interested in why you seem to so strongly think this is so.


DonJ said:
To write at that level requires a level of observation and grappling with the issues that might make it close in some sense to forging a unified 'I' and might help us to do so, I think.

Anyway, I found the digression interesting.
What if to write 'at this level' merely requires the artist to be only peripherally involved - a vessel of some sort - or what if it merely flows from the power of a child's unbridled imagination coupled with an adult's mastery of language - then does this indicate a 'unified 'I''?

I just find it fascinating that because certain works of art might touch someone in certain ways that they then tend to attribute all sorts of projected values and characteristics onto the artist that might, in reality, have never been there and could never be there. I'm certainly not saying that it is impossible, I'm just saying that a true 'unified I' is so rare in this world, that it is often very, very easy to imagine that anyone who evidences sparks of creativity or deep thought to be 'advanced' - when, in reality, that certainly does not have to be the case.

Apologies for continuing the digression, and so far on this thread, it seems that kenlee's contributions are the most inline with my personal understanding of self-remembering - fwiw.
 
Genius does not imply a "unified I" as Anart points out. Just look at Picasso. He was one of the greatest artists who lived, who had masterful technique as a youth, and yet he was a deeply flawed and imperfect man. The depth of Shakespeare's work is evidence of genius, and perhaps potential for a unified self, but not evidence of its existence.
 
What I said was that, for the reader, it really doesn't make a difference whether Shakespeare had a unified 'I' or not. If I had to guess I would say he didn't but he did have a good knowledge, probably because of acting training, of the fact that there are lots of 'I's bouncing around in each person.

My point was that that such works can be helpful to us, regardless of the level Shakespeare himself attained. Picasso, I would put maybe in a different category, because Shakespeare didn't paint or write fiction, he was a dramatist and drama needs different "characters" which can represent different 'I's if a reader find that helpful in his or her quest.

Again, I would not myself have attributed any high level of esoteric advancement to Shakespeare. Nor did I ever say that genuis implies a unified 'I'. In many cases the opposite is probably more likely!
 
DonaldJHunt said:
Again, I would not myself have attributed any high level of esoteric advancement to Shakespeare.
While reading this interesting thread I remembered having read a chapter in Secret Teachings Of All Ages,
in which Manly P. Hall makes a convincing case that the works of Shakespeare were probably written by Francis Bacon.
Some research about the bard of Stratford revealed that there`s still quite some ongoing dispute about this matter. IF Bacon,
the self acclaimed "Herald Of The New Age", wrote Shakepears works he MIGHT have had some real esoteric knowledge,
which then might have flown into his dramas with the intention of informing those ready for the knowledge. fwiw.
 
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