Self Remembering

[Bobo08]

I just started reading the fourth book of the Wave series and it occured to me
that "self-remembering" had never been mentioned whereas other "concepts" of the Fourth Way were being worked with, like external consideration, different parts of centers etc. I did not have any particular expectations but was just wondering about it. Gurdjieff left a lot of different material to work with - on our instinctive (fe diet), intellectual (fe accumulation of knowledge) and emotional (fe external consideration) parts, but he always stressed that "self-remembering" is the central point.

The C's may not refer to it using the exact word "self-remembering". But the concept is central to what they conveyed. The passage that Alada quoted a few posts back is a great summary of it.

You probably have experienced feeling "heavier" and "lighter" in different circumstances? For example, you have an argument with your coworkers, there is a lot of negativity in the room and you start to feel very heavy. On other occasions you feel like "dancing in the street". These seem to be different vibrations, slower in the first example, faster in the second. Gurdjieff talks about "finer hydrogens" moving away from matter to consciousness.

This seems to happen with trying self-remembering: The energy in the body changes somehow. Colors change, one becomes aware of things you have not been aware before.

This refers however to the actual act of "self-remembering", you have to DO it.
It is almost impossible to do it for more than a couple of seconds, though.

I think what you described is the state of being drained (or lack of it). When you have an argument, or are stressed, or are dissociated, you are being drained of energy. That is why you feel "heavy". On the other hand, when you are able to stay present, you stop the draining and regain your energy. That's why you feel "lighter" and everything seems to be more vivid. It has nothing to do with Gurdjieff's hydrogens though.

You are correct in saying that it is difficult to keep the "lighter" state for a long time. Nevertheless, as you work on yourselves, resolving your old traumas and cleaning your machine, you will find that it becomes easier to stay present for longer periods.

 

[Minas Tirith]

Hello Bobo,

yes, I found Aladas quote helpful, too.
I think what I was looking for, however, was something connected to the "practical" side of "self-remembering" or "being present", as you call it, maybe as a kind of meditation exercise. How you actually do it.
A kind of: "Look into this, this is helpful in the process..."
I know that this is not how the Cass. give the material, we have to find out and learn ourselves. So maybe the quote is a hint.

You are correct in saying that it is difficult to keep the "lighter" state for a long time. Nevertheless, as you work on yourselves, resolving your old traumas and cleaning your machine, you will find that it becomes easier to stay present for longer periods.

Nowadays the term is used by so many people (even Ophra Winfrey) that nobody really knows what it means anymore, I find. People think that they are present, and they haven't even heard of Gurdjieff and dividing attention.

Anyway, thank you all for your answers.

Emmeya

 

[Weller]

Not sure if this is the right thread to post this or this might help you EmmaYa, but I have been struggling lately with this idea of "being present" as well, what it means to self-remember. I read ISOTM three times in the last few years, and, along with some of Casteneda's books, I am always disappointed with how much I had forgotten since the last time I read them!

Anyway, Ouspensky's description in ISOTM of his struggle to remember himself really stuck with me, and a few times I made a concerted commitment to try it, like going on a crash diet - five minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, trying to watch myself without interruption. It was much easier when it was quiet and calm and nearly impossible if I was interacting with someone else. I had the most success getting started picturing myself as if I was a satellite, watching myself from above, a tiny dot moving down a highway, sitting at my desk typing away, chatting with someone, etc. Somehow picturing myself as this tiny speck in the landscape helped to keep things in perspective. I even set up Outlook reminders to prompt me to remember!

Eventually, after a long while of poking away at this, rather than remembering, I started to notice myself having forgotten, over and over. Somehow the emotional jolt of realizing how bad it was--how much I was forgetting myself, how long my lapses in attention were--was more notable to me than the benefit of achieving a state of self-remembering, whatever that might be. I see self-remembering in "negative space" terms...as a state of not-forgetting, not-asleep, because it seems like an interruption from the default state of attention being totally absorbed in daily concerns.

Lately this image comes to me: that I am sitting at a typewriter, typing out the script (of my interactions with others or with myself, of my daily life), AND I am standing behind the typist, watching what she is typing. The watcher is sort of amused with the whole thing, like watching someone type away with toilet paper on her shoe, spinach in her teeth, in the middle of an earthquake; there is another whole realm of activity that the typist is completely ignorant of because she is so absorbed in typing the script.

I have this feeling of watching the typist more often now, but I still kick myself for the abysmal forgetting the rest of the time, and feel like I am not making any further progress.

Have other folks experienced anything like this? Not sure if this is on the right track or not.

Here's the quote from ISOTM that stuck in my head, from Chapter 7, this has been posted earlier in this thread too:

...I was once walking along the Liteiny towards the Nevsky, and in spite of all my efforts I was unable to keep my attention on self-remembering. The noise, movement, everything distracted me. Every minute I lost the thread of attention, found it again, and then lost it again. At last I felt a kind of ridiculous irritation with myself and I turned into the street on the left having firmly decided to keep my attention on the fact that I would remember myself at least for some time, at any rate until I reached the following street....I realized that, in quiet streets, it was easier for me not to lose the line of thought...Just round the corner on the Nevsky was a tobacconists's shop where they made my cigarettes. Still remembering myself I thought I would call there and order some cigarettes.

Two hours later I woke up in the Tavricheskaya, that is, far away...

 

[Minas Tirith]

Hello Weller and thanks for sharing your experiences.

This is what I meant in my initial post, really trying to do it (not just intellectualizing about it) and observing the results.
Yes, it is difficult, but I think we should not beat ourselves too much up that we cannot really sustain it.
At least, we are trying :)

Eventually, after a long while of poking away at this, rather than remembering, I started to notice myself having forgotten, over and over. Somehow the emotional jolt of realizing how bad it was--how much I was forgetting myself, how long my lapses in attention were--was more notable to me than the benefit of achieving a state of self-remembering, whatever that might be.

Yes, this is true, thank you for this observation.
I wish I could formulate better in English to share my experiences on an adequate level in this group *sigh*
As for the "benefits", even though some answers to my initial post tried to convince me that what I described was related to something else, it has produced changes in my body/machine.

More awareness, maybe? Something like that.

EmmeYa

 

[Altair]

Hi there,

today trying to remember myself I noticed that it's much more easier to stop inner dialog and not to be distracted by random thoughts if I breathe deeply and constantly with my belly (actually it is exactly what we are doing during EE practice). So a small part of me looks into me to observe my breathing and another part of my attention observes the external world. And if I do get distracted my breathing becomes immediately shallow. Is there a interconnection between deep belly breathing and self-remembering? Does anybody have similar experience?

Thanks :)

 

[edgitarra]

Is there a interconnection between deep belly breathing and self-remembering? Does anybody have similar experience?

There might be possible. If you are not accustomed(habit) to do the belly breathing, then you have to do it consciously. Here's a reminder from ISOTM:

In order to observe himself a man must try to walk not in his habitual way, he must sit in unaccustomed attitudes, he must stand when he is accustomed to sit, he must sit when he is accustomed to stand, and he must make with his left hand the movements he is accustomed to make with his right hand and vice versa. All this will enable him to observe himself and study the habits and associations of the moving center.

So if you are not accustomed to breathe with your belly, which might bring you attention on yourself and let you take in more associations, it might have an really useful purpose.

G's Meetings 1941-1944
And something useful, which I didn't try for a long time, but I am considering in starting it again:

There is a series of seven exercises for the successive development of the seven centres. We cite the first, the brain, the one which counts in ordinary life. (The head is a luxury.) The other, the emotional also; but the only one which is necessary is the spinal cord, the one which you must first develop and strengthen. This exercise will strengthen it. Hold out both arms horizontally at an exact angle, at the same time looking fixed at a point before you. Divide your attention exactly between point and arms. You will find that there are no associations, no place for them, so occupied you will be with point and position of arms. Do this sitting down, standing, then on knees. Twenty-five minutes each position, several times a day - or fewer. Once I had pupil could stay for 2 hours without moving arms one centimeter. For other things he was nothingness.

Sense one's body again, continually without interrupting one's ordinary occupations - to keep a little energy, to take the habit. I thought the exercises would allow you to keep the energy a long time, but I see it is not so. Wet a handkerchief, wring it out, put it on your skin. The contact will remind you. When it is dry, begin again. THE KEY TO EVERYTHING - remain apart. Our aim is to have constantly a sensation of oneself, of one's individuality. This sensation cannot be expressed intellectually, because it is organic. It is something which makes you independent, when you are with other people.

 

[SadEyes]

Is there a interconnection between deep belly breathing and self-remembering? Does anybody have similar experience?

There might be possible. If you are not accustomed(habit) to do the belly breathing, then you have to do it consciously. Here's a reminder from ISOTM:

In order to observe himself a man must try to walk not in his habitual way, he must sit in unaccustomed attitudes, he must stand when he is accustomed to sit, he must sit when he is accustomed to stand, and he must make with his left hand the movements he is accustomed to make with his right hand and vice versa. All this will enable him to observe himself and study the habits and associations of the moving center.

So if you are not accustomed to breathe with your belly, which might bring you attention on yourself and let you take in more associations, it might have an really useful purpose.

G's Meetings 1941-1944
And something useful, which I didn't try for a long time, but I am considering in starting it again:

There is a series of seven exercises for the successive development of the seven centres. We cite the first, the brain, the one which counts in ordinary life. (The head is a luxury.) The other, the emotional also; but the only one which is necessary is the spinal cord, the one which you must first develop and strengthen. This exercise will strengthen it. Hold out both arms horizontally at an exact angle, at the same time looking fixed at a point before you. Divide your attention exactly between point and arms. You will find that there are no associations, no place for them, so occupied you will be with point and position of arms. Do this sitting down, standing, then on knees. Twenty-five minutes each position, several times a day - or fewer. Once I had pupil could stay for 2 hours without moving arms one centimeter. For other things he was nothingness.

Sense one's body again, continually without interrupting one's ordinary occupations - to keep a little energy, to take the habit. I thought the exercises would allow you to keep the energy a long time, but I see it is not so. Wet a handkerchief, wring it out, put it on your skin. The contact will remind you. When it is dry, begin again. THE KEY TO EVERYTHING - remain apart. Our aim is to have constantly a sensation of oneself, of one's individuality. This sensation cannot be expressed intellectually, because it is organic. It is something which makes you independent, when you are with other people.

In reading "The Reality of Being", it was finally made clearer how that sensation may be felt. For me, it is an energetic feeling. Often times, intense self-remembering brings about involuntary muscle twitches. For example if my attention slowly slips from my entire body to one specific body part, say my arm; it will twitch on occasion. But even then it is hard to keep the sensation on the entire body unless it is continuously moved. In The Reality of Being by Mdme De Salzmann, she constantly talks about not being able to keep the sensation unless more centers are involved. In the book, much emphasis seems to be placed on energy in the solar plexus, as well as energy in the head. Personally, if attention is focused on those two areas, the rest of the awareness seems to spread easily to the rest of the body; albeit for a short time. It seems as if the aim is to combine awareness of the entire body, but with an equal distribution in the other areas (centers?). At times, the energy in the solar plexus seems to have a completely different quality than the energy that would be felt in the head, which is also different than the energy that I experience in the rest of my body. Tuning into those different areas individually reveals that it is possible to regulate the feelings to attempt to match them. On the rare occasion that this is accomplished for a split moment, it produces a quality of life that feels unlike anything ever experienced. If seems to permeate the body with a joyful feeling which in turn generates positive emotions- or at the very least an expanding feeling of joy.

 

[edgitarra]

If seems to permeate the body with a joyful feeling which in turn generates positive emotions- or at the very least an expanding feeling of joy.

Yes. I would define self-remembering also as being the quantity and the quality of taking in impressions. The more one remembers himself the bigger the number of taking in the impressions and the stronger the intensity of self remembering the more qualitative the impressions.
Yet i don't know exactly why is it so pleasant(and not only, there is also a feeling of adventure somehow, playfullness) to take in impressions, to be truly present.

 

[edgitarra]

And one more thing I would like to add, maybe it is a hint for the others, hopefully not confusing. I noticed when I self-remember that labeling dissapears in my mind. The surroundings seem totally new, when I look at a tree or my hand, they simply are, the unconscious process that matches an object to a specfic label(it is a tree because it looks like a tree, and this is how we call it) totally dissapears. The tree simply is without any label the concept attributed. The hand simply is etc. It is like seeing a new object and not knowing in which category to label it and how to name it. So it happens with the whole envinronment when I am self remembering. Wow, "I am here" and it feels new in a way, so to speak.

 

[Inquorate]

Assembling the self remembering state

The way I learnt to self remember is to aware of physical sensations, be mindful of emotional state, and be cognizant of the thoughts that are transpiring. Then, to observe these states together, and finally to watch myself observing myself.

Every step creates a change in the hum or operation of the awareness/consciousness much akin to the change in the hum of a beehive depending on the state they are in.

Each change elicits a quicken ing of the flavour of thought for me, akin to changing gears in a car - except there are infinite different gears one could change to.

I'm interested to know if someone else has noticed something similar.

 

[sany]

Working my way through ISOTM (currently chapter 9) and realised that my idea of self remembering is very much based in the intellectual centre as a dialog that goes something like:

"OK I'm awake. How do I feel emotionally....how does my body feel...OK, what's going on around me..."

And my consciousness seems to have a particular flavour about it; I remember the last time I was in that state and I feel "present" - like I've been working totally autonomously since that last time.

The trouble with that inner dialog is that
A) it's doubtful how much I'm able to take in any external objects when I'm busy chatting to myself.
B) It's impossible to maintain when I talk to anyone.

Invariably any activity that requires me to concentrate (eg listening/talking) means I "blow" my state of self remembering - if indeed that's what it is.

I thought that self remembering was akin to "reflexive consciousness" that I'm come across in my Buddhist learnings, but now I'm trying to leave all that at the door, tip out my cup and enter with a beginner's mind.

So with that same "flavour" in mind, I'm stopping the dialog and trying to just "hold" the three centres, notice what they're doing.

Questions:

1. How can one self-remember with the emotional and motion centres without recognising that intellectually and verbalising it? Or do you have to verbalise an observation before it can be remembered?

2. When looking at an object, I recognise that I have an emotional reaction to it, but what am I looking for from the motion centre - an impulse to react physically to the object? A memory of the feeling of the object?

3. Any suggestions on being able to maintain a state of self remembering when the intellectual centre needs to take over eg answering a question?

I searched for previous threads on this topic and found the one from June 2006 by Marie very helpful - particularly EsoQuest's postings.

Cheers,
Peter

Self remembering is not an activity that proceeds in any of the functions/centers but an action which moves our attention towards the body. If you could keep your attention to stay in touch with your body for a while a subtle sensation of the body will appear. The longer you can keep this connection of your attention which the body the deeper the sensation of the body will become. Once you dwell in this sensation, you can freely observe whatever is proceeding in the functions/centers (moving, thinking, feeling, etc.). This is right self observation which cannot take place without right self remembering.

 

[Gawan]

Welcome sany, seeing this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief intro about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc.

 

[Alada]

Self remembering is not an activity that proceeds in any of the functions/centers but an action which moves our attention towards the body. If you could keep your attention to stay in touch with your body for a while a subtle sensation of the body will appear. The longer you can keep this connection of your attention which the body the deeper the sensation of the body will become. Once you dwell in this sensation, you can freely observe whatever is proceeding in the functions/centers (moving, thinking, feeling, etc.). This is right self observation which cannot take place without right self remembering.

This statement seems pretty categorical, but I have a question. There doesn’t seem to be much self awareness in you Sany when it comes to ego / external consideration. If you are self-remembering / observing correctly and can be so categorical, how can this be so?

 

[sany]

It can be so because it all comes from practical experience in this very moment which ensues a categorical certainty, an inner freedom able to manifest the way it is. In other words it is not "me" talking in the usual way but something else passing through.
But the real issue for me now is to try to go beyond the inner-outer experience of self remembering-observing because I am no longer interested in the immediate effect (inner peace, joy, freedom, love?, or externally give the impression of lack of self awareness/ext consideration, etc.) but I want to know (sense, touch, experience) the original cause of this something of a different nature that comes through me when I work.
Now, I also have some other questions: who is observing, is that you? do you recognize yourself in this process or is there another "something" that is observing you? in other words what would happen to you if you could keep self/remembering observing for a long time?

 

[Altair]

Now, I also have some other questions: who is observing, is that you?

It's another part of your mind (one of your I's) which observes your other I's.

do you recognize yourself in this process or is there another "something" that is observing you?

You recognize that you're not really in control of your actions/emotions because with every external shock another "I" takes control of you.

in other words what would happen to you if you could keep self/remembering observing for a long time?

Theoretically, you can develop and strengthen a stable "I" (the observer) which would be less susceptible to external shocks. You can also read about Predator`s Mind (http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=609&lsel=P) to expand the concept of many "I's".