Self Remembering

[cassandra]

Whoa! Thanks for sharing such powerful vision/dream. Those girls were cool.

 

[Minas Tirith]

Did the Cass. ever comment on self-remembering?
I couldn't find anything ...
It is a quite central "concept" in the Fourth Way - and if it is a "shortcut" to (more) consciousness,
or raising us to a higher level, why is it not more important - as for example diet?

EmmeYA

 

[SeekinTruth]

Did the Cass. ever comment on self-remembering?
I couldn't find anything ...
It is a quite central "concept" in the Fourth Way - and if it is a "shortcut" to (more) consciousness,
or raising us to a higher level, why is it not more important - as for example diet?

EmmeYA

I don't think proper Self Remembering and Self Observation can be done without the psychological reading and healing and the diet to straighten us out so we can function much better. Then the Self Remembering and Self Observation will be much more productive because we'll know much more details about our machine from the modern neuroscience and psychology material and how to deal with it all. And the diet will give us a real chance to be able to have stable moods and energy.

It has always been emphasized on the forum that the first order of business is to get psychologically and physically healthy. Gurdjieff stressed the importance of this, as well. And that's not possible unless the TOTALLY unhealthy standard current diet is changed and the latest knowledge about our neurological and cognitive systems are understood thoroughly. Diet and EE are at the forefront of achieving all this, combined with getting up to speed with all the reading material (which is always growing).

All this is probably the reason so few have made any real progress in the Work over the decades.

 

[mcb]

...It has always been emphasized on the forum that the first order of business is to get psychologically and physically healthy...

It seems to have been my only order of business in 9 years with the group (I predate the forum). I have made much progress over not just the last 9 years but over the last 43 since I began to identify what was going on and make changes. I was not born physically healthy and there are important issues that have yet to yield, but I persist. For some, that might be what it means to "do the work."

 

[Minas Tirith]

Hello,

yes, I agree with you both.
The machine has to be cleaned.

However, one of the most famous quotes from Gurdjieff is:
"Remember your self always and everywhere."

This is a pretty strong statement, I find.
And it doesn't exclude changing your diet or gaining more knowledge.

On a personal level I had some strong experiences when I tried to "remember myself",
that seem to raise my vibrational level.

In a way it is strange that the Cass. have not even mentioned it?

Emmeya

 

[Buddy]

[...]
In a way it is strange that the Cass. have not even mentioned it?

Emmeya

Hi EmmeYa. In what way do you think that is strange? What would you expect to see (or read)?

 

[Bobo08]

On a personal level I had some strong experiences when I tried to "remember myself",
that seem to raise my vibrational level.

Hi EmmeYa,

What is "vibrational level", according to your understanding? And how did you know that your vibrational level was raised?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

However, one of the most famous quotes from Gurdjieff is:
"Remember your self always and everywhere."

This is a pretty strong statement, I find.
And it doesn't exclude changing your diet or gaining more knowledge.

So...? Just because one aphorism doesn't include another aphorism, it doesn't negate the second one. That's bad logic. Gurdjieff also wrote:

First Striving: "To have in their ordinary being-existence everything satisfying and really necessary for their planetary body."

Second Striving: "To have a constant and unflagging instinctive need for self-perfection in the sense of being."

Third Striving: "The conscious striving to know ever more and more concerning the laws of World-creation and World-maintenance."

Fourth Striving: "The striving from the beginning of their existence to pay for their arising and their individuality as quickly possible, in order afterwards to be free to lighten as much as possible the Sorrow of our Common Father."

Fifth Striving: "The striving always to assist the most rapid perfecting of other beings, both those similar to oneself and those of other forms, up to the degree of the sacred Martfotai, that is, up to the degree of self-individuality."

 

[StrangeCaptain]

Hello,

yes, I agree with you both.
The machine has to be cleaned.

However, one of the most famous quotes from Gurdjieff is:
"Remember your self always and everywhere."

This is a pretty strong statement, I find.
And it doesn't exclude changing your diet or gaining more knowledge.

On a personal level I had some strong experiences when I tried to "remember myself",
that seem to raise my vibrational level.

In a way it is strange that the Cass. have not even mentioned it?

Emmeya

Hmmm.... I am not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. There could be some misunderstanding due to a language barrier. The word "however" gives the sense that you are saying that the statement,

"Remember your self always and everywhere."

stands in contrast to the idea that the machine must be cleaned. I don't know why they would, but as I am currently reading "In Search of The Miraculous," I would like to share some thoughts.

Assuming the quotations in ISOTM are accurate, Gurdjieff defines a Way as being a path to growing a 4th body, a sort of existence or substance that embodies the unchangeable I that someone has forged which survives after physical death. The Ways of the Fakir, the Monk, and the Yogi work exclusively on the body, the emotions, and the mind, respectively. Then the 4th Way is said to be a work on ALL three of these levels at once. Furthermore, Gurdjieff is quoted early in ISOTM as saying,

Then the fourth way differs from the other ways in that the principal demand made upon a man is the demand for understanding. A man must do nothing that he does not understand, except as an experiment under the supervision and direction of his teacher. The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts.

Later on, we read,

In ordinary conditions man sees the world through a crooked, uneven window. And even if he realizes this, he cannot alter anything. This or that mode of perception depends upon the work of his organism as a whole. All functions are interconnected and counterbalance one another, all functions strive to keep one another in the state in which they are. Therefore when a man begins to study himself he must understand that if he discovers in himself something that he dislikes he will not be able to change it. To study is one thing, and to change is another. But study is the first step towards the possibility of change in the future. And in the beginning, to study himself he must understand that for a long time all his work will consist in study only.

Change under ordinary conditions is impossible, because, in wanting to change something a man wants to change this one thing only. But everything in the machine is interconnected and every function is inevitably counterbalanced by some other function or by a whole series of other functions, although we are not aware of this interconnection of the various functions within ourselves. The machine is balanced in all its details at every moment of its activity. If a man observes in himself something that he dislikes and begins making efforts to alter it, he may succeed in obtaining a certain result. But together with this result he will inevitably obtain another result, which he did not in the least expect or desire and which he could not have suspected. By striving to destroy and annihilate everything that he dislikes, by making efforts to this end, he upsets the balance of the machine. The machine strives to re-establish the balance and re-establishes it by creating a new function which the man could not have foreseen. For instance, a man may observe that he is very absent-minded, that he forgets everything, loses everything, and so on. He begins to struggle with this habit and, if he is sufficiently methodical and determined, he succeeds, after a time, in attaining the desired result: he ceases to forget and to lose things. This he notices, but there is something else he does not notice, which other people notice, namely, that he has grown irritable, pedantic, fault-finding, disagreeable. Irritability has appeared as the result of his having lost his absent-mindedness. Why? It is impossible to say. Only detailed analysis of a particular man's mental qualities can show why the loss of one quality has caused the appearance of another. This does not mean that loss of absentmindedness must necessarily give rise to irritability. It is just as easy for some other characteristic to appear that has no relation to absent-mindedness at all, for instance Stinginess or envy or something else.

So that if one is working on oneself properly, one must consider the possible supplementary changes, and take them into account beforehand. Only in this way is it possible to avoid undesirable changes, or the appearance of qualities which are utterly opposed to the aim and the direction of the work.

So I would like to highlight 3 points:

[list type=decimal]

[*]The 4th way cultivates the body, mind, and emotions simultaneously.
[*]When one undertakes to change something in one's life, understanding should precede the change. Understanding is a consequence of study, and self-observation is a form of study.
[*]The student may undertake experiments under the direction of the teacher without the same understanding as the teacher, but the results of the experiment will ultimately be limited by the student's level of understanding.

[/list]

So... We have the sort of obvious idea that a student follows the teacher's direction without the same understanding that the teacher has. However, the student is responsible for building an understanding of why any particular thing is being done, and without this understanding, the results will be necessarily limited.

The network here has a variety of exercises. For example, the POTS meditation, the studies of psychology and cognitive science, and the changing of one's diet. You could call the researchers, who have brought these practices to light, teachers. In beginning these practices, it is okay not to understand them in the same way as the teachers who have transmitted them. However, understanding must be a part of the practices, or it is no longer a 4th way. Self-observation is an important form of study to reach this understanding.

In short, self-observation, dietary practices, and other "experiments" being tried by members of this network form a cohesive whole where we attempt to work on the body, emotions, and mind at once. It is just dawning on me how truly our effort here is a 4th way.

One thing that continues to vex me as I have read this thread (more than once) is what the difference between self-remembering and self-observation would be. There were moments were I thought this was clear to me, but it was lost. I am just not there yet.

If the C's mention neither self-observation nor self-remembering, then this is not an important point to me as the C's have served as inspiration to the researchers here, and there is much that they have discovered that was not mentioned explicitly by the C's.

 

[Psalehesost]

However, one of the most famous quotes from Gurdjieff is:
"Remember your self always and everywhere."

This is a pretty strong statement, I find.
And it doesn't exclude changing your diet or gaining more knowledge.

So...? Just because one aphorism doesn't include another aphorism, it doesn't negate the second one. That's bad logic. Gurdjieff also wrote:

[...]

EmmeYa wrote "doesn't exclude", not "doesn't include".

 

[Approaching Infinity]

However, one of the most famous quotes from Gurdjieff is:
"Remember your self always and everywhere."

This is a pretty strong statement, I find.
And it doesn't exclude changing your diet or gaining more knowledge.

So...? Just because one aphorism doesn't include another aphorism, it doesn't negate the second one. That's bad logic. Gurdjieff also wrote:

[...]

EmmeYa wrote "doesn't exclude", not "doesn't include".

D'oh! My apologies, EmmeYa.

 

[Alada]

I think this from the Cs is pretty central to the issue of Self-remembering:

'Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.'

Also the reminders to be vigilant and to cultivate awareness. Knowledge being rooted in awareness. I think these are all pretty strong clues to be always giving attention to Self-Remembering, to aim at developing it to the point of remembering yourself "always and everywhere". In those terms perhaps we can say 'Knowledge Protects' is equal to 'Self-Remembering protects'? That is, as long as we always working on applying said knowledge to ourselves.

 

[Ollie]

I think this from the Cs is pretty central to the issue of Self-remembering:

'Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.'

Also the reminders to be vigilant and to cultivate awareness. Knowledge being rooted in awareness. I think these are all pretty strong clues to be always giving attention to Self-Remembering, to aim at developing it to the point of remembering yourself "always and everywhere". In those terms perhaps we can say 'Knowledge Protects' is equal to 'Self-Remembering protects'? That is, as long as we always working on applying said knowledge to ourselves.

Thank you Alada, that was beautifully put in connecting the dots.

 

[SeekinTruth]

I think this from the Cs is pretty central to the issue of Self-remembering:

'Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.'

Also the reminders to be vigilant and to cultivate awareness. Knowledge being rooted in awareness. I think these are all pretty strong clues to be always giving attention to Self-Remembering, to aim at developing it to the point of remembering yourself "always and everywhere". In those terms perhaps we can say 'Knowledge Protects' is equal to 'Self-Remembering protects'? That is, as long as we always working on applying said knowledge to ourselves.

Thank you Alada, that was beautifully put in connecting the dots.

Yeah, what a great condensation! :)

 

[Minas Tirith]

Hello and thanks for your replies.

I am not a native speaker which probably accounts for some misunderstandings. Also I have not figured out exactly how to quote. Sorry for that.

Hi EmmeYa. In what way do you think that is strange? What would you expect to see (or read)?

Maybe "strange" was the wrong word. I just started reading the fourth book of the Wave series and it occured to me
that "self-remembering" had never been mentioned whereas other "concepts" of the Fourth Way were being worked with, like external consideration, different parts of centers etc. I did not have any particular expectations but was just wondering about it. Gurdjieff left a lot of different material to work with - on our instinctive (fe diet), intellectual (fe accumulation of knowledge) and emotional (fe external consideration) parts, but he always stressed that "self-remembering" is the central point.

On a personal level I had some strong experiences when I tried to "remember myself",
that seem to raise my vibrational level.

Hi EmmeYa,

What is "vibrational level", according to your understanding? And how did you know that your vibrational level was raised?

That is difficult to describe. You probably have experienced feeling "heavier" and "lighter" in different circumstances? For example, you have an argument with your coworkers, there is a lot of negativity in the room and you start to feel very heavy. On other occasions you feel like "dancing in the street". These seem to be different vibrations, slower in the first example, faster in the second. Gurdjieff talks about "finer hydrogens" moving away from matter to consciousness.

This seems to happen with trying self-remembering: The energy in the body changes somehow. Colors change, one becomes aware of things you have not been aware before.

This refers however to the actual act of "self-remembering", you have to DO it.
It is almost impossible to do it for more than a couple of seconds, though.

(Dear Forum, I have to go to work now, but will come back later)
EmmeYa


Edit=fixed quote tag