A Question for the Cs (and the rest of the forum)

Wu Wei Wu

Jedi Master
I have a few questions I might ponder to the Cs, if willing.

Of course I have used the search function on the forum and was unable to find exactly what I was looking for. I am also in the process of reading the wave series, so if its in there it may take a little while to get there.

My first inquiry for the Cs (and everyone else, hopefully) pertains to the existence of 4th way schools in the modern day.

I am aware of the intention of the Cassiopaea community, to function as a school of sorts using the Cs and group reflection in the place of a formal master/teacher. But is it not likely that there exists some 4th way schools in other parts of the world?

Hopefully this question has already been asked and answered I can learn quickly, but if not I think its a line of questioning worth asking. There is such activity here, why wouldn't there be in other existing schools.
 
there are many 4th way schools around the world but they all seem to have one thing in common, they are/were twisted at one stage and there's only little of the real work left in them.
maybe there are real 4th way schools left somewhere I don't know, but IMO the best 4th way school you can find today is this forum.
 
Hi Wu Wei Wu,

I cannot imagine which search terms you have used to come to the conclusion that you were unable to find exactly what you were looking for.
There is in fact quite a lot of info regarding 4Th way schools available.

Anyway, a good place to start would be:

Imitation Fourth Way Groups Started by Gurdjieff Rejects
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,215.0.html

Gurdjieff Groups in the UK
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,11651.0.html

The Cs and Gurdjieff
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,11521.0.html

Background info can be found in:

G. I. Gurdjieff and His School
http://www.gurdjieff.org/needleman2.htm

Gurdjieff and Orage: Brothers in Elysium by Paul Beekman Taylor
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,8658.0.html

Mouravieff - Ouspensky, Gurdjieff & Fragments
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23285.0.html

Other relevant topics for further refinement and nuances:

Why Gurdjieff?
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,20379.0.html

Gurdjieff's demystifiers
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,25100.0.html

4Th Way Teachings
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,709.0.html

In Search of the Miraculous: Observations and Questions
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=17356.0

Mouravieff’s Gnosis, Meditation and Yoga
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,11944.0.html

There are more entries and articles, mainly written by Laura, hidden around which I left out for the time being.

Happy reading!
 
Pashalis said:
there are many 4th way schools around the world but they all seem to have one thing in common, they are/were twisted at one stage and there's only little of the real work left in them.
maybe there are real 4th way schools left somewhere I don't know, but IMO the best 4th way school you can find today is this forum.

I have wondered about this also. Sure, there are plenty of "4th way schools" just as there are plenty of occult groups, new age groups etc. But have any of them not been distorted? I suppose not, or we would have made contact by now.

It does seem that this group is the 'last hope' for humanity as it were, which sure is a daunting thought. Though it really helps instill a sense of responsibility to work harder. I also feel very lucky to be part of what may well the most advanced network in the world in terms of objectivity, something that I sometimes take for granted.
 
maybe there are real 4th way schools left somewhere I don't know, but IMO the best 4th way school you can find today is this forum.

This is the real question. Are there any fourth way schools out there?

I have wondered about this also. Sure, there are plenty of "4th way schools" just as there are plenty of occult groups, new age groups etc. But have any of them not been distorted? I suppose not, or we would have made contact by now.

It does seem that this group is the 'last hope' for humanity as it were, which sure is a daunting thought. Though it really helps instill a sense of responsibility to work harder. I also feel very lucky to be part of what may well the most advanced network in the world in terms of objectivity, something that I sometimes take for granted.

Again, this question arises. Given that the desire for consciousness is common to specific group of the populace that is however, very spread out, it seems quite likely that many different groups will develop going in the same direction. Not trying to cause trouble, but supposing they don't exist because we haven't made contact is a fallacy. There are any number of reasons or circumstances that could inhibit communication. Its an assumption that is not productive to make, though of course it isn't productive to assume that there must be other schools out there either.

But I totally agree with you. To assume the Cassiopaea group is our last collective hope has huge implications!

Hi Wu Wei Wu,

I cannot imagine which search terms you have used to come to the conclusion that you were unable to find exactly what you were looking for.
There is in fact quite a lot of info regarding 4Th way schools available.

Thank you for your comprehensive list of threads Palinurus. I am familiar with a number of those threads, though not all (more reading!).

I should clarify. By Fourth Way School, I refer NOT to the Gurdjieff schools specifically. I am aware of them very well.

Rather I refer to alternative Fourth Way Schools. Firstly, Gurdjieff had to learn from someone. Speculation about the origins of his knowledge aside, his teachings do not coincide with the idea of a single student bearing the weight of the school alone. The 'school' requires multiple participants, and there are of course the other members of his 'seekers of truth' group of 30 or so, if I remember correctly. Historical accuracy aside, Gurdjieff could not have escaped from the 'prison' alone or without help.

Such schools are not at all comparable to the distorted versions of Gurdjieff's disciples. I cannot have been the only one to consider the existence of such schools.

It was my mistake for using the term "Fourth Way School" without clarifying that I meant 4th way in terms of structure and operation (prioritizing understanding, working on body, mind, emotions all at once).

That is what I would like to ask the Cs. Are any such schools in existence? The question arises because I have found something interesting and am curious as to what they think.

I had thought someone would've asked this one suggestion, but found no trace in my cursory search (though I have yet to read all the Cs transcripts, still on the Wave).
 
Wu Wei Wu said:
That is what I would like to ask the Cs. Are any such schools in existence? The question arises because I have found something interesting and am curious as to what they think.

Hi Wu Wei Wu,
The general approach of this forum is to do research and network to find answers to questions that arise instead of going straight to the C's. If you are willing to share what you have found, then members can look into it and provide feedback.
 
Wu Wei Wu said:
The question arises because I have found something interesting and am curious as to what they think.
I have to say I find it a bit disingenuous of you to play hide and seek with us about what you have found and I fully concur with the remarks of obyvatel. This is not the way in which this forum operates most of the time. As the C's could have said (I presume): vague in, vague out.

Wu Wei Wu said:
I meant 4Th way in terms of structure and operation (prioritizing understanding, working on body, mind, emotions all at once).
The most pressing feature of any 4Th Way activity or school (apart from searching for B an C influences) would constitute: Being IN this world but not OF it - which means that 4Th way activities exercised in separation or isolation, like in convents or cloisters and such, don't count as 4Th Way. Any of those preoccupations count as either the way of the fakir, or the monk, or the yogi - as is further explained here: http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/4Th_Way.

There it is implied that a 4Th Way school completely separate from what Gurdjieff tried and teached, and afterwards wrote, is a contradiction in terms because Gurdjieff has been indispensable for introducing the concept of doing work on all fields of endeavour simultaneously, complementary to a normal everyday life, as a distinctly shaped 4Th Way, for specific circumstances and with specific aims. For instance, growing into becoming/being man #4 and beyond.

Thus, the thought that you could have found something similar elsewhere of equal value and worthy of the name 4Th Way without any reference to Gurdjieff's work or at least to the core of his method and concepts, seems very unlikely to me. But, who knows...?

We'll have a clue once you reveal what you have found.
 
I don't know if you could call it 4th way, but there is Claymont in West Virginia.

_http://www.claymontseminars.com/upcomingevents.htm

Some of the former students of Bennett and people from Sherbourne are still involved.
 
This question makes me ponder... would you give more credit to a school if it were a temple?
A physical school, innacessible, with lots of initiations to be part of? Maybe in the mountains, in Tibet?

Because, if you have a great resource, at the touch of your fingers, and you disregard it, after so little interaction with the network, makes me wonder how you would value a "true" 4th Way school.

Even if this forum were not a genuine fourth way school, look at what has been accomplished here.
People actually do change around these parts, you just have to search to see.
For me, the proof is in the pudding, so even if this forum were not a genuine 4th way school, I would still value it above all those schools filled with "mysticism", misunderstanding and rigidity.
 
Iron said:
This question makes me ponder... would you give more credit to a school if it were a temple?
A physical school, innacessible, with lots of initiations to be part of? Maybe in the mountains, in Tibet?

Because, if you have a great resource, at the touch of your fingers, and you disregard it, after so little interaction with the network, makes me wonder how you would value a "true" 4th Way school.

Even if this forum were not a genuine fourth way school, look at what has been accomplished here.
People actually do change around these parts, you just have to search to see.
For me, the proof is in the pudding, so even if this forum were not a genuine 4th way school, I would still value it above all those schools filled with "mysticism", misunderstanding and rigidity.

I second that !
 
Hi Wu Wei Wu,
The general approach of this forum is to do research and network to find answers to questions that arise instead of going straight to the C's. If you are willing to share what you have found, then members can look into it and provide feedback.

Hah, a good suggestion by the 'inhabitant'. :P

Since we're going in that direction I will reveal on of the interesting things I've found. I would certainly enjoy the groups insight into it, yours included.

I have to say I find it a bit disingenuous of you to play hide and seek with us about what you have found.

It might appear that way, but its important to recognize that my discovery was the stimulus for asking the original question. The question itself does not refer to my discovery specifically. I had not originally intended to ask anything about my discovery, but since we have moved in that direction and I have clearly piqued interest, I have no problem sharing.

This question makes me ponder... would you give more credit to a school if it were a temple?
A physical school, innacessible, with lots of initiations to be part of? Maybe in the mountains, in Tibet?

There are plenty of such schools, I'm sure. However, my experience and approach has been heavily coloured by the Fourth Way, so unless such a school maintains certain characteristics in common with the Fourth Way, then no credit will be given. Appearances of the school matter little if it is fake, and exposure to Fourth Way ideas makes the path of the fakir, monk, or yogi a lot less appealing.

Because, if you have a great resource, at the touch of your fingers, and you disregard it, after so little interaction with the network, makes me wonder how you would value a "true" 4th Way school.

While I agree this is an excellent resource and have used it extensively (it is also literally at the touch of my fingers :P) lets not jump to judgemental conclusions about how much or how little we value the teachings of the Fourth Way School. Lets not make hefty assumptions of character as, after all, I've had comparatively little interaction with the network.

Even if this forum were not a genuine fourth way school, look at what has been accomplished here.
People actually do change around these parts, you just have to search to see.
For me, the proof is in the pudding, so even if this forum were not a genuine 4th way school, I would still value it above all those schools filled with "mysticism", misunderstanding and rigidity.

It almost seems as if your trying to defend the Cassiopaea forum, of which there is no need. I have learned much from it as well, its an endless and growing repository of information and experience, carefully sifted through the mesh of knowledge and scrutiny.
On the subject of whether or not this is a genuine 4th way school, it certainly seems genuine to me. There is of course the lack of a 'master' but the 'group mirror' does compensate somewhat for this, and of course the Cs appear more than capable of filling that void.



It appears I stirred something up, which was not the intention. The question remains just as it originally was. Nevertheless lets continue onto the matter which has stirred so much curiosity.

The group in question the 'The Divine Science' group. Given the nature of the group, I had thought that it wasn't a totally suitable topic for this forum, but here we are.
A link to the site is here: _https://thedivinescience. org/ [link deactivated by moderator]

At first I thought there would be no comparison between it and the fourth way but increasing familiarity with the school and its students have revealed many parallels. Every requirement I remember for being a Fourth Way School has been fulfilled, including working with others in a school format, participation of elder students with younger, mind-body-emotion simultaneous development with practices that are nearly identical to some Fourth Way ones, although they come from a starkly different perspective. The focus on understanding what your doing before doing anything is also there.
As was said, 'the proof is in the pudding', and it has produced significant changes in its students as well. I cannot go into any specifics on the school since I have agreed not to.

But this leads to my original question, which has much wider implications then whether or not the TDS group is valid.

I vaguely remember that the Cs mention that there are other groups moving in the same direction of self development. So I shall ask:

Do Fourth Way Schools exist in the modern day, separate of lineage Gurdjieff and his students?
 
Wu Wei Wu said:
At first I thought there would be no comparison between it and the fourth way but increasing familiarity with the school and its students have revealed many parallels.

w said:
But this leads to my original question, which has much wider implications then whether or not the TDS group is valid.

I vaguely remember that the Cs mention that there are other groups moving in the same direction of self development. So I shall ask:

Do Fourth Way Schools exist in the modern day, separate of lineage Gurdjieff and his students?

So, you're basically asking the C's if the '4th Way Group' that you are involved with is valid? It says quite a bit that you would have to ask. That speaks volumes in itself. There are many things to be learned through many venues, but it seems to me that you are asking an extremely vague question, here. The question can't even be answered without knowing your exact definition(s) of 'valid'.
 
Before we eventually start discussing this school and said website which I have to further delve into first, I would like to reference now at least one contribution of interest pertaining to the gist of their activities, namely this one (and subsequent posts):

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,6873.msg67092.html#msg67092
 
pstott said:
I don't know if you could call it 4th way, but there is Claymont in West Virginia.

_http://www.claymontseminars.com/upcomingevents.htm

Some of the former students of Bennett and people from Sherbourne are still involved.

Quote from that page:

The community's collective energy of mindfulness as well as the trees, the birds, and the sunshine will also help us to embrace our thoughts and feelings as they arise, so that we can continue to feel solid and calm. The retreat's atmosphere is one of quiet joy!
Sounds like self-calming.

The testimonials page here http://www.claymontseminars.com/apps/testimonials/

..suggests that this is more of a vacation retreat to relax, eat food, meditate, and sleep. If that place was about consciousness development you'd think they'd put at least one testimonial that mentions it, or mentions learning, etc.
 
Hi Wu Wei Wu.
You see, every now and them appears someone questioning either if following Gurdjieff is valid, or if there are true 4th Way Schools out there, or something along these lines.
But you are incorrect. I was not trying to defend the Cassiopaea forum, because this forum and Laura's work speaks for itself, and the people against who attack this forum usually don't hear explanations and ideas contrary to their pathology anyway.
My phrasing was perhaps unclear in the first post, as you seem to have not grasped what I meant. My apologies for that. I hope that what follows next is clearer.

To me your question is like finding a good bakery, with solid reputation of making excelent bread, but whose "chefs" don't wear "true" bakery hats and asking there where you can find a good "true" bakery, instead of eating the bread that is offered.

As for the rest, I agree with Anart. We would have to hear from you what you think that qualifies a 4th Way school as valid.
 
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