domi said:
Documentary worth watching even though there is a certain apologetic nature to it with respect to the Nazis, e.g. Hitler had to go into Poland because ethnic Germans were being slaughtered.
I would say this makes for an interesting exercise in viewing right after reading Marc Bloch's book The Historian's Craft.
It gave me a clearer picture as to why so many people from my home country were willing to go fight alongside the Germans on the Eastern front or work in German factories.
The information also makes obvious that history is/was rewritten by the victors and that the propaganda is ongoing to this day.
This may be a little long and in error as i just try to work out these matters in my mind related to this presented film and what history tells us.
Agree about it being an interesting exercise re Marc Bloch reading. Was able to find and watch the last two episodes of this documentary (number 20 & 21). The last one says it is “Continued”, yet found no further reference. However, the big question of valid evidence vs. manufactured evidence does of course need study. In saying that, in thinking back, one quickly realizes that in the last near 60 years, these events have seen the most powerful program drummed into people the world over. The program of this era seems to depend on what is being obscured (from all sides) and what is being fostered. As Bloch says of the word “embroidery”, truth and lies have likely been sewn into the fabric and it is hard to see the designing hands. One such thread, as stated in the film and as known the world over, are the vicious laws about being a “denier”, which is used liberally and it is the same result if one is just asking questions, which is not welcomed or allowed, osit. So in this respect, when has that ever happened that if you do not agree, and if you even just present contrary evidence, you can go to jail? The inquisition comes to mind as one example. Coming out about conspiracies of 9/11 is starting to reveal consequence, although not as sever YET. To ask question today brings out the wrath of, whoever the hell they really are, machines of influence squarely down upon ones head.
Marc Bloch said:
Of all the poisons capable of vitiating a piece of evidence, the most virulent is deception.
So how to deal with what transpired in the faces of all who lived and perished at that time, whether orientated on the axis or allied side? So what of evidence brought forward from those who bore witness, if it is truthful, it cannot be discarded so easily. However, the history books are indeed written by the victors and they can, as we so often see, pretty much say anything they want, as long as it is agreed upon and reinforced. More so, if they are a mixture of lies, then generational reinforcement of lies, rumors and myths, being taught to emerging youth (myself included) results in tall tales of happenings in literature, history radio and film. If it is lies packaged as such, what a powerful deception indeed.
Marc Bloch said:
According to Ellies du Pin, criticism was that “species of torch which lights our way down the darkened corridors of antiquity, enabling us to distinguish the true from the false.
[…]
Finally, there is a more insidious form of deception. In place of blunt, forthright, and, I might almost say, honest untruths, there are the sly alterations: interpolations in authentic charters or embroidering of imaginary details upon the roughly trustworthy scheme of a narrative. Interpolations are generally found on self-interest. Embroidery is frequently for the purpose of embellishment.
{of distortions of evidence} Nearly always, the nature of the error is determined in advance. More particularly, it does not spread, it does not take on life, unless it harmonizes with the prejudices of public opinion. It then becomes a mirror in which the collective consciousness surveys its own features…
However, for the error of a single witness to become that of many men, for an inaccurate observation to be transformed into a false rumor, social conditions must be such as to favor its circulation.
So this matter of evidence has patters of allied propaganda under perhaps a powerful veiled hand. It, too, on the axis side has propaganda from a master in one Herman Goebbels. Clearly, the atrocities, both financially - starting from the dictates in the Versailles treaty, the heavy hand of reparations, annexed colonies and territories, becomes integral to pushing the German people to say no, not anymore. The system behind Churchill and Roosevelt needed a war and what better way than to create the image of a devil, a mad man, one that is intent on taking your countries flag. Other than the communist problem, there is not much evidence of the German’s wanting world domination, as opposed to say other "empire takers" who murdered there way through the history books with basic impunity, either directly or by proxy, yet the Germans initially just wanted their lands and people back; would have they gone further? Today it is clear who has gone further in the name of freedom and democracy, and the scorn they level is sickening and matches exactly their own deeds.
Think many can see how this war was originally escalated based on utilized fears, foreign policy and cleaver manipulations. Poland seemed to be the only place the allies could kick a greater war into being and there is good evidence that the Polish people wanted to settle the Danzig question, yet at the top, the message to the Polish leaders from America, Britain and France was, we will support you, and it all went to hell after they fell for it. Once the Russian’s came in, well we know what they did to thousand of Polish solders in the forests of Katyn, later of course blamed on the Germans.
What was so horrendously done to regular people and families from all sides becomes a crime, and this requires evidence to see who. The truth may have been obscured and lies spread like wildfire in people’s heads, and seem to have been intermixed with truth to become “embroidered”. Societal manipulations based on false information and deception further spread with ease in the form of documents, photos and rumors and twisted perceptions, while the bits of true evidence now is mostly not allowed, disappeared or forgotten.
The lies, well these are everywhere, and i want to try and see them for what they are. In the case of the whole WWII affair, one does not want to believe lies and yet the program of separating the wheat from the shaft of this is made difficult by our warped and manipulated histories.
During a much earlier post 2009
here in discussing just what the heck was going on, i made some mention about this Norwegian (85 yrs of age now) who gave me a number of strange books that at one time seemed totally against my belief system of what I had learned.
In the last post a few books were quoted from which had been given me by an old Norwegian acquaintance; some of said books seemed completely at odds with the others and given my present understanding of things at that time, what could I make of this contradictory selection. One in particular upon review was immediately destined for the trash-can, yet it remained as a textual paradox upon the bookshelf, maybe thinking that at least it should be studied at some future point were a small particular might stand out…
So a couple of these books were based on various authors or others telling their perception of truths behind the Katyn Forest murders, murders at Vynnytsia in the Ukraine, Stalin, FDR, Churchill etc. that were not generally academically sanctioned. One was on the manipulations of Nazi camp photographs and data; which is the one i really wanted to toss out and never did – it felt dirty having this based on what i grew up to think by education and adopted worldview as opposed to knowing; presently, i still don't know.
Boris Mouravieff said:
Let us repeat that we live inside the Mixtus Orbis, where we find real and imaginary facts and phenomena inextricably intermixed.
We [emphasize] the precept of discernment, without which nothing tangible can be acquired on the esoteric path. The difficulty lies in the fact that it is not given to man to have an absolute concept of Good and Evil. Each light which shines in his eyes brings with it some shadow. This misleads even beings of good faith who are gifted with subtle intelligence. In all equity, even when we sincerely want to solve a problem, we always find an almost equal percentage of arguments for or against the proposed solution. So much is this so that we are unable to decide on anything; we are immobilized and wait ad majorem diaboli gloriam ...
As for the German camp atrocities, it seems there is evidence that some of this was “embroidered” and people were treated not as was said, while at the end of the war, when the Germans and the camp prisoners all suffered by starvation's and disease; well it was bad. There is also evidence that many doctors did unspeakable things to people and when you have any war, zealots and pathological people are always to be found on all sides. There is solid evidence that the hordes from the north did the worst atrocities as they counter liberated the Ukraine and all the other captured territories. “Liberation” however is a false term, as murder clearly ruled the days. No matter the evidence of where, to whom, by who or what, i try to remember that in the end there were prisons with barbwire and they were to be filled and they very much were. So no matter how they were treated (anywhere), it is important to remember that they were after all prisoners without free will, most all were innocent, and prisoners come with jailers who do not hold their best intentions at heart.
