Africa's apocalyptic mood
- Thread starter Erna
- Start date
Sad truth that these zionists pseudo churches 
have taken a grip on Ghana and are striving to destroy the African souls (even in the most remote bush under the guise of US NGO).
They have also demonized the Muslim population for at least one decade, thus prompting tensions between Sahelian (mostly animist/Muslims) and Coastal population (Southern Ivory Coast, Guinée Bissau, Guninée, Bénin, Togo...) I said southern because in all these country, the nortern part is Sahelian and thus more Muslim oriented.
from my experience, it is not even worth discussing with the evangelists, their mindset is really turned toward their sick vision of armaggedon... Catholics on the other side are more prone to tolerance and to engage in civic initiative. They are far more open minded and if it wasn't with the invoolvment of the Vatican with corrupted elite, the catholic believers are much less prone to dogmatism.
From what I have understood after some research on my own, most evangelists are using traditional "religious knowhow' to attract people.
have taken a grip on Ghana and are striving to destroy the African souls (even in the most remote bush under the guise of US NGO).They have also demonized the Muslim population for at least one decade, thus prompting tensions between Sahelian (mostly animist/Muslims) and Coastal population (Southern Ivory Coast, Guinée Bissau, Guninée, Bénin, Togo...) I said southern because in all these country, the nortern part is Sahelian and thus more Muslim oriented.
from my experience, it is not even worth discussing with the evangelists, their mindset is really turned toward their sick vision of armaggedon... Catholics on the other side are more prone to tolerance and to engage in civic initiative. They are far more open minded and if it wasn't with the invoolvment of the Vatican with corrupted elite, the catholic believers are much less prone to dogmatism.
From what I have understood after some research on my own, most evangelists are using traditional "religious knowhow' to attract people.
Sankara said:
They tend to mix their tribal religions a little with the monotheistic religions as well. All these religions are psychopathic, but as a woman I think the Islamic dominance in the North (which steadily creaps South) scares me the most. Sharia law is just insanity, I would definitely get myself stoned or whipped!
EDIT:
Found this:
Erna, you've been subjected to the western propaganda 
Islamic fundamentalism is really an epiphenomenon which grows on ignorance, extrem poverty and rejection of the abominations comminted by the western Empire...
Most Sahelians are by far animist Muslims and women are not stoned or whipped. I have been in a Sahelian community for 10 years and have never heard or witness about such things. I'll write more about that later on.
salam
Islamic fundamentalism is really an epiphenomenon which grows on ignorance, extrem poverty and rejection of the abominations comminted by the western Empire...
Most Sahelians are by far animist Muslims and women are not stoned or whipped. I have been in a Sahelian community for 10 years and have never heard or witness about such things. I'll write more about that later on.
salam
Sankara, don't you find this a little psychopathic?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/ihavearightto/four_b/casestudy_art07.shtml
You don't think a religion in which women are inferior to men is psychopathic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
and this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
It's beyond insanity! Christianity doesn't even come close!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/ihavearightto/four_b/casestudy_art07.shtml
You don't think a religion in which women are inferior to men is psychopathic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
and this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
It's beyond insanity! Christianity doesn't even come close!
The first thing I would say would be to be very careful when reading anything in the mainstream about Islam. We are right in the middle of a massive world-wide propaganda campaign to demonise Muslims and Arabs as part of a truly psychopathic effort to lock down the planet. I am sure you have also noticed that Muslims in several countries, including handcuffed children, are being slaughtered daily.
The second thing I would say is that Sharia law is not so much religious law, like Catholic Canon law, but more akin to British Common law.
From the wiki article
In fact, Sharia law is based on British common law, it is a remnant of the wonderful days of the British Empire.
This is evidenced in the excerpt you posted:
That is to say, it was BRITISH influence that robbed Muslim women of more equal rights, something they had before British influence. To me that suggests that the psychopathology was seeded into Sharia law by a pre-existing psychopathology in Western, and therefore Christian, doctrine.
It is also important to remember that Sharia law is interpreted by the local Muslim clerics or imams, etc. The interpretation varies greatly throughout the Muslim world. Over 1 Billion people, by the way. Think of the variations in extent of adherence to and intensity of belief Christianity in the Christian world. All the way from non-practicing to "Jesus camp".
Extreme forms of Islam that you hear about in the press are most often practiced in countries where Western governments, mainly the US, Britain (and Israel more covertly) have played a major role in establishing the ruling regime. Saudi Arabia is one of the strictest Muslim nations where women are marginalised and people regularly beheaded or stoned to death for theft. The Saudi rulers were helped into power and have been maintained there by the US. Same goes for the Taliban, who are nothing more than a bunch of tribal nut cases who were given guns and money by the USA. The methodology is:
place extremist crazies in power. wait a few years. denounce their extremist practices and launch an invasion that wipes out the local population who, invariably hated the crazies that you put in power.
We should always try to remember that we live in an entirely manufactured world. Very little of what goes on the political and religious arenas has anything to do with the truth.
As for Christianity, or more specifically catholicism; I've heard the stories of Muslim men taking "child brides", but not so many stories about the fact that in America, by the time they are 15 years old, 50% of girls are estimated to have been sexually abused by their fathers or other adult male members of their extended families/
Then of course, who can forget the sexual abuse of boys by catholic priests. The true extent of this scandal has by no means been revealed. Hundreds of thousands of mens' lives have been ruined by this particular type of "pastoral care", and the church leaders, right up to the Vatican, have been deliberately covering it up in order to PERPETUATE it for decades.
But did they lie about it? Of course not! priests and cardinals etc do not "lie", they simply employ "mental reservation"
So you see, when the cardinal and others made statements that covered up physical and sexual abuse of children by the clergy at all levels, which then condemned thousands more children to the same fate, they were not committing any sin or "lying", they were instead employing a technique that is laid out in CANONICAL LAW and they were therefore being "holy", I can only presume.
The "sharia law" that is being denounced (largely by Neocon-types) and portrayed as adhered to by ALL Muslims is, I suggest comparable to Dominionism. If the shoe were on the other foot, and the White House was in the Middle East, you can be sure that you would be sitting in the West, a nominal Christian, and reading stories in the press and articles on wikipedia about how "Christian terrorists" want to spread Dominionism across the planet. Of course, you'd only be reading such stories if you happened to be in a Western country that was allowed to develop to the extent that you had access to the internet. And if you happened to be in a Western country that had been one of the targets of the Middle Eastern White House's "war on christian terrorism", then there's a decent chance that you would be either living in a refugee camp in exile or dead.
p.s. for another look at the nature of Neocon, Frank Gaffney, from the second last link above, see this interview with Chris Matthews
p.p.s in reference to the Sudan trouser/lashes story; Sudan is an American client state that plays the CIAs "al-Qaeda" game and allows US multinationals to pillage Sudanese oil. The president since 1989, Omar al-Bashir, is the tin pot dictator who likes extreme (i.e. totally false) interpretations of Sharia law in order to control the population who would otherwise revolt and demand that US interests be kicked out. As the very brave woman in question, Lubna Ahmed al-Hussein, said herself in the article:
What all tin pot idiots like the Sudanse president don't realise is that they are making deals with the devil. At any time they can and will be the next adventure in the US/Israeli phony war on terror. Then again, being likely psychos themselves, they probably can't realise such things, because, as was recently stated, psychopaths are defined by an extreme lack of insight.
The second thing I would say is that Sharia law is not so much religious law, like Catholic Canon law, but more akin to British Common law.
From the wiki article
In fact, Sharia law is based on British common law, it is a remnant of the wonderful days of the British Empire.
This is evidenced in the excerpt you posted:
That is to say, it was BRITISH influence that robbed Muslim women of more equal rights, something they had before British influence. To me that suggests that the psychopathology was seeded into Sharia law by a pre-existing psychopathology in Western, and therefore Christian, doctrine.
It is also important to remember that Sharia law is interpreted by the local Muslim clerics or imams, etc. The interpretation varies greatly throughout the Muslim world. Over 1 Billion people, by the way. Think of the variations in extent of adherence to and intensity of belief Christianity in the Christian world. All the way from non-practicing to "Jesus camp".
Extreme forms of Islam that you hear about in the press are most often practiced in countries where Western governments, mainly the US, Britain (and Israel more covertly) have played a major role in establishing the ruling regime. Saudi Arabia is one of the strictest Muslim nations where women are marginalised and people regularly beheaded or stoned to death for theft. The Saudi rulers were helped into power and have been maintained there by the US. Same goes for the Taliban, who are nothing more than a bunch of tribal nut cases who were given guns and money by the USA. The methodology is:
place extremist crazies in power. wait a few years. denounce their extremist practices and launch an invasion that wipes out the local population who, invariably hated the crazies that you put in power.
We should always try to remember that we live in an entirely manufactured world. Very little of what goes on the political and religious arenas has anything to do with the truth.
As for Christianity, or more specifically catholicism; I've heard the stories of Muslim men taking "child brides", but not so many stories about the fact that in America, by the time they are 15 years old, 50% of girls are estimated to have been sexually abused by their fathers or other adult male members of their extended families/
Then of course, who can forget the sexual abuse of boys by catholic priests. The true extent of this scandal has by no means been revealed. Hundreds of thousands of mens' lives have been ruined by this particular type of "pastoral care", and the church leaders, right up to the Vatican, have been deliberately covering it up in order to PERPETUATE it for decades.
But did they lie about it? Of course not! priests and cardinals etc do not "lie", they simply employ "mental reservation"
So you see, when the cardinal and others made statements that covered up physical and sexual abuse of children by the clergy at all levels, which then condemned thousands more children to the same fate, they were not committing any sin or "lying", they were instead employing a technique that is laid out in CANONICAL LAW and they were therefore being "holy", I can only presume.
The "sharia law" that is being denounced (largely by Neocon-types) and portrayed as adhered to by ALL Muslims is, I suggest comparable to Dominionism. If the shoe were on the other foot, and the White House was in the Middle East, you can be sure that you would be sitting in the West, a nominal Christian, and reading stories in the press and articles on wikipedia about how "Christian terrorists" want to spread Dominionism across the planet. Of course, you'd only be reading such stories if you happened to be in a Western country that was allowed to develop to the extent that you had access to the internet. And if you happened to be in a Western country that had been one of the targets of the Middle Eastern White House's "war on christian terrorism", then there's a decent chance that you would be either living in a refugee camp in exile or dead.
p.s. for another look at the nature of Neocon, Frank Gaffney, from the second last link above, see this interview with Chris Matthews
p.p.s in reference to the Sudan trouser/lashes story; Sudan is an American client state that plays the CIAs "al-Qaeda" game and allows US multinationals to pillage Sudanese oil. The president since 1989, Omar al-Bashir, is the tin pot dictator who likes extreme (i.e. totally false) interpretations of Sharia law in order to control the population who would otherwise revolt and demand that US interests be kicked out. As the very brave woman in question, Lubna Ahmed al-Hussein, said herself in the article:
What all tin pot idiots like the Sudanse president don't realise is that they are making deals with the devil. At any time they can and will be the next adventure in the US/Israeli phony war on terror. Then again, being likely psychos themselves, they probably can't realise such things, because, as was recently stated, psychopaths are defined by an extreme lack of insight.
Thanks for your post Perceval. I see what you're saying.
Islam remains however a religion that give me the chills. I understand that they are demonized in the West, and that I have been subjected to that demonization, and that we should be discerning when exposed to that demonization.
But even their common practises (excluding the fundamentalism) troubles me also - the accepted dress code for women, the polygamy, the limited education for girls, the forced studying of the Qur'an.
The 'mental reservations' you speak of is indeed insane also, and the molestation is rife, but it is still largely confined to the church environment in Catholicism, and doesn't directly affect the secular or non-practising portion of the society, whereas Islamic Law seems to subject an entire nation to its laws.
But your post is very informative. I just always pity Islamic women when I see them in the street covered from head to toe in pitch black in temperatures ranging from early to mid-thirties. Islam just really scares me still. We have had business meetings with Muslims, and when they excuse themselves at 12 to go pray - in the middle of a meeting!, I mean it's just...you know? ...and the fasting, and the dietary requirements...it just freaks me out. But I'm totally secular, a choice I wouldn't have under Sharia Law.
But all religions bear foul fruit, as you rightly pointed out. The Christian West today is however much further along the road of women’s rights in particular than Islam.
Islam remains however a religion that give me the chills. I understand that they are demonized in the West, and that I have been subjected to that demonization, and that we should be discerning when exposed to that demonization.
But even their common practises (excluding the fundamentalism) troubles me also - the accepted dress code for women, the polygamy, the limited education for girls, the forced studying of the Qur'an.
The 'mental reservations' you speak of is indeed insane also, and the molestation is rife, but it is still largely confined to the church environment in Catholicism, and doesn't directly affect the secular or non-practising portion of the society, whereas Islamic Law seems to subject an entire nation to its laws.
But your post is very informative. I just always pity Islamic women when I see them in the street covered from head to toe in pitch black in temperatures ranging from early to mid-thirties. Islam just really scares me still. We have had business meetings with Muslims, and when they excuse themselves at 12 to go pray - in the middle of a meeting!, I mean it's just...you know? ...and the fasting, and the dietary requirements...it just freaks me out. But I'm totally secular, a choice I wouldn't have under Sharia Law.
But all religions bear foul fruit, as you rightly pointed out. The Christian West today is however much further along the road of women’s rights in particular than Islam.
H
Hildegarda
Guest
E said:
I have some of the same feelings, too. This whole discussion made me realize that I have strong emotional reactions to the issue of women's rights and safety. E.g., when I read in Perceval's message,
The thought that sprang to my mind right away was, "not exactly -- CDC puts the US figures at 1 out of 4 girls and 1 out of 6 boys before age of 18, with 40% of abuse coming from family members and 50% from people the child knows or trust. And, there is very little statistics available in middle-eastern, eastern and african countries (although, what's coming out is scary -- India's rate is at a whopping 70+%), because the subject is a taboo and the girl risks being blamed and disposed of in honor killing if she were to say anything, so people keep quiet and resort to surgeries to restore virginity if they can afford it", etc, etc.
On the second thought though, that may be true but is not exactly the point. The point is that the image of Islam we have is skewed. Most of the terrible things we hear about are done by desperate people whose life is unstable and harsh. The poorer the people and the more unsafe their environment is, the more rabidly restrictive their religious rituals are going to be (\\\http://miller-mccune.com/culture_society/who-needs-god-when-we-ve-got-mammon-1626). Buddy brought an excellent analysis of why this is so, in this thread: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=15301.msg124474#msg124474
But if you look at richer and more prominent folks, be it in Egypt, Turkey or in Saudi Arabia, they will be more secular and also more content to use the western "freedoms", or rather comforts. Religion is the opium for the masses, administered by the elites, there as well as here.
If we are talking about the muslims in the US, they are a very diverse group, and the Asian-American and Arab-American muslims are on average very highly educated and secular. The women in that community are some of the highest educated in the nation, and their earnings equal those of men, which is a better situation than that of any other group (\\\http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/us/02muslims.html). Yet they feel deeply alienated and are discriminated against, and are perceived by others as alien to the US culture (\\\http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=436). This comes from people's ignorance and believing in media's portrayal of an Arab Muslim extremist bogeyman.
Regarding the treatment of women, I think we might also keep in mind that there is some cultural relativity with which we view some of the practices. I mean specifically the dress code -- not the full body dress but the head scarf. E.g., when there was the big debate in France about head scarves in public schools, some government official (could have been Sarko himself) made a statement in the media that "these women are oppressed and should be freed from their bondage". To which a French muslim acquaintance said, "Oppressed? moi? I think it's the French women who feel that they have to dye their hair after 40, and can't get out of the house without a perfect coif, are oppressed by their societal programming. I am free to be as I am, and can get ready to go out in a jiffy, just by throwing on my scarf."
I think that in general people react negatively when others disapprove of their tradition that for them is a token of their heritage, and that should be respected. In contrast, nobody who is human is proud of truly abusive practices that their culture and religion enforces, and they definitely need to be discussed and worked against. But if we as a society can somehow separate the two in the discussion, that gives a better chance of success in improving people's lives.
osit
E said:
Check out this article on dress code for women in Islam, and this follow up, for a different view from the one that pervades the mainstream press. After all, unless I am mistaken, most of your impressions of all things Muslim has been presented to you by the Western press. As for education, Iraq is a good example. Under Saddam, Iraq was a well developed nation with free third level education for all. Women held positions at all levels of society. The point I am making is that it is not possible to generalise about "Islam" because the way it is practiced varies greatly from country to country and within countries. You've probably heard about how evil Iran is also. Watch this BBC documentary for an inside view.
[quote author=E]The 'mental reservations' you speak of is indeed insane also, and the molestation is rife, but it is still largely confined to the church environment in Catholicism, and doesn't directly affect the secular or non-practising portion of the society, whereas Islamic Law seems to subject an entire nation to its laws.[/quote]
Again, I think that we are talking about individuals here, not "Islamic law". This is an important distinction, I think Islam in its own way, is as toxic to human beings as Christianity and Judaism, but we should be careful not to condemn our fellow normal human beings in condemning the religion that has been imposed on them by psychopaths. That is precisely what the psychopaths in power are attempting to achieve.
[quote author=E]But your post is very informative. I just always pity Islamic women when I see them in the street covered from head to toe in pitch black in temperatures ranging from early to mid-thirties. Islam just really scares me still. We have had business meetings with Muslims, and when they excuse themselves at 12 to go pray - in the middle of a meeting!, I mean it's just...you know? ...and the fasting, and the dietary requirements...it just freaks me out. But I'm totally secular, a choice I wouldn't have under Sharia Law.[/quote]
I understand your point, and I agree that the West is generally much more secular than most Muslim countries.
[quote author=E]But all religions bear foul fruit, as you rightly pointed out. The Christian West today is however much further along the road of women’s rights in particular than Islam.
[/quote]
Hmmm...that's a thorny issue IMO. I think Christianity and Western culture have done as much to harm women and equality as Islam has. Perhaps you have been spared a lot of the discrimination, or perhaps you are strong enough to have overcome it. IMO, discrimination against women is very pervasive and so entrenched that most people don't recognise it as such any more.
Hildegarda said:
I thought I read somewhere that estimates were that up to 50% was likely, in real terms, because obviously it's difficult to know the exact figures.
This paper puts it at 38%
Hello,
Perceval, thank you for your insightful intervention :).
the subject of Islam deserve a very long study since it is a complexe matter and really I won't have time to even start getting in the subject. What I am therefore going to deal with brievly, is of a first hand experience with Islam, Islamic civilisation, it's different people (so many from Europe to China via Sénégal :)), it's different religious "sects", it's different spiritual school from remote Island in Indonesia to the Mourides of Sénégal via the Persians etc...
...
I grew up in a neighborood where our right and left and front neighboors were Catholic Spanish, the back neighboors were Algerian Muslims. For years my parent's house was 100 meters away from a Synagogue, the Rabbi's son was our good friend and we have all never discriminate since we learned more or less consciously that the good friends, the trustworthy one, could not be recognized by his religious background and the crazy guys were not specificaly Arabo/berbère Muslims ;). If the Spanish and the Algerians usually gave us cookies for some Catholic feast or the end of Ramadan, never has the Rabbi. But his son was a good football player and a very good fellow :D...
What about Islam,Muslims?
I have been practicing the fifth pillars of that religion for 8 years and studying it and even join a Sufi Brotherhood for a while. I have learned much (especially with Ismaelians) and it has been a blessing to have had Ibn Arabis poetry around the period when I have had an experience with light such as described by Jacques Vallée and John Keel because otherwise nobody around could have helped me with what I have been living around that period. Not that I could understand how tremendous this was dealing with at 24, but because it led me to stop drinking, introduce the regularity of finding one self to bend on the ground because of life. the fasting of food, carnal attraction during the hardship of Ramadan,have led me to understand what that means to observe oneself. It helped me to consider my previous education and widened the scope of understandings and multiplied the point of view.
Once I have been in a Mosque, it had been the last time. It was great somehow, because in a foreign land in Asia and it was moving to see people of all complexion, all social background, Indonesians, Bangladeshis, pakistanese, Chinese, Ivorians, Sudanese... and even French since three of them were converted in that big Asian City, altogether. The religious leaders just repulsed me. Ever since that time I have never wanted to join the Mosque prayers except in remote villages in Marocco or with an old friend, an old cigarette smoking egyptologist, devoted truth seeker and converted (like many french freed Muslims, he still have little wine and nobody blame him because is is considered a respectful elder).
Religion is corrupted.
Like the great Jamaïcan poet Mutabaruka used to say "religion have been designed by insecure men to oppress women". But from my experience, and this is while Wikipedia is totaly irrelevant, most Muslim women are highly respected in their society and much happyer than many Westerners. Some of them are not for sure :(, like the afghani Pastuns, but this has nothing to do with Islam, (in Mayotte the inheritance goes to the women)it depends on the ethnical background. and this relevant for the whole Christian mediterranean era. In Egypt, the Copts practice excision...
In the village I have roots in, I have heard about beaten women twice in ten years. The first time, all the women in the village (and they know one another perfectly since they spend much time altogether) blame it on...the woman. And they really explained why. The second time was two years ago. This time, the whole village defended the woman against the man. The father went in the couple's house, took his daughter's stuff and swear (backed by the villagers) that his daughter would never come back because of his behaviour.
I am French, and I know that more women are beaten right here, in French families than in Mali, in Algeria. If you really doubt what I say, I could figure out the official figures in France, Spain, Italy...
In many Muslim countries, the woman is a mother, she is sacred to her children and I have witnessed this high respect and love for mothers in Arabic tribes, highly religious Berbere Mozabites( non Sunna, nether Shi'a), black African Muslims. The Mozabites city of Ghardaïa keeps the reminder of a woman who refused to 'pray' and who would answer the religious leaders of that very pecular society (worth a search) that only God was her judge and so none of them could judge her. She was such a good person that her life was recorded with respect.
Erna, please check how many woman are in university in Iran, look at the role they play in the 'Hezbollah society', as teachers, professors, journalists. The Al Azhar University (founded by the Ismaelians) has declared a moratory on stoning and whipping because they had to be reconsidered in this era, but no western media seem to have notice this important move. This may remotely have something to do with the fact that many French women convert.
Anything can be said of Muhammad, but surely he did help his wife for their daily duties.
Three years ago, in Mali, in a Bambara village (Mutwa talks about them),arrived a new young cultivated Imam (locally called a Marabu) arrived. he informed the population of the prophet's habits (which according to the Sunna Islam must be copied in behaviour) and told the men to do the same. The Bamako's newpaper who ran that story, finished the article saying that all the males chased him out of the village. It is highly probable that peasant in Haute Loire would have done the same with a Curé telling them the same thing a couple of decades ago (no risk he would have say such an heresy anyway )
We should be careful with the mainstream presentation of Islamic civilisations, indeed...
Spiritual Islam, is a treasure and it is a pity I can't advise you to have a look at Eva de Vitray Meyerovitch's book since I don't think it has been translated. Maybe you could try to find Amadou Hampatê Ba's book. In my life I have met so many people of so many different places having links in one way or another with Islam who were just the best guests we would have for damned good conversations. I have so many trustworthy friends in my heart that it is always rather painful to realize how people are ignorants about Islamic civilisation and demonize it. The descriptions of Lobaczewski are relevant in most Muslim society and they are a lot of normal people. I consider and pondered that what the C's have said about 30% of the Bible being of worth and having to be discovered thru meditation can be applied to Kuran.
In many couties Muslim are now educated and there is no doubt that you could easily sympathized with them. Recently I had a look on Muslim websites about UFO's and was amazed how they took it seriously.
When I started this post I knew I wouldn't be able to write for long since I have a flight tomorrow... Frustrating somehow. This is why I choose this style, forgive me. I hope you have understood the point.
The Empire has encouraged the most stupid and fundamentalist Wahabism to achive their aim of destroying this civilisation from within, this is an historical fact.
I will end this post with a love song from the area where I have deep roots with, the Peulh-Songhaï of the Niger borders between Gao and Niamey. Witness how the child "Mariama" had from a precedent wedding is accepted by the lover in front of the community.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THAqP7ANYQ0
You can also watch our sister's dance in the Sahelo-sahara area, wonderful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Ucw830fDU
respect
Perceval, thank you for your insightful intervention :).
the subject of Islam deserve a very long study since it is a complexe matter and really I won't have time to even start getting in the subject. What I am therefore going to deal with brievly, is of a first hand experience with Islam, Islamic civilisation, it's different people (so many from Europe to China via Sénégal :)), it's different religious "sects", it's different spiritual school from remote Island in Indonesia to the Mourides of Sénégal via the Persians etc...
...
I grew up in a neighborood where our right and left and front neighboors were Catholic Spanish, the back neighboors were Algerian Muslims. For years my parent's house was 100 meters away from a Synagogue, the Rabbi's son was our good friend and we have all never discriminate since we learned more or less consciously that the good friends, the trustworthy one, could not be recognized by his religious background and the crazy guys were not specificaly Arabo/berbère Muslims ;). If the Spanish and the Algerians usually gave us cookies for some Catholic feast or the end of Ramadan, never has the Rabbi. But his son was a good football player and a very good fellow :D...
What about Islam,Muslims?
I have been practicing the fifth pillars of that religion for 8 years and studying it and even join a Sufi Brotherhood for a while. I have learned much (especially with Ismaelians) and it has been a blessing to have had Ibn Arabis poetry around the period when I have had an experience with light such as described by Jacques Vallée and John Keel because otherwise nobody around could have helped me with what I have been living around that period. Not that I could understand how tremendous this was dealing with at 24, but because it led me to stop drinking, introduce the regularity of finding one self to bend on the ground because of life. the fasting of food, carnal attraction during the hardship of Ramadan,have led me to understand what that means to observe oneself. It helped me to consider my previous education and widened the scope of understandings and multiplied the point of view.
Once I have been in a Mosque, it had been the last time. It was great somehow, because in a foreign land in Asia and it was moving to see people of all complexion, all social background, Indonesians, Bangladeshis, pakistanese, Chinese, Ivorians, Sudanese... and even French since three of them were converted in that big Asian City, altogether. The religious leaders just repulsed me. Ever since that time I have never wanted to join the Mosque prayers except in remote villages in Marocco or with an old friend, an old cigarette smoking egyptologist, devoted truth seeker and converted (like many french freed Muslims, he still have little wine and nobody blame him because is is considered a respectful elder).
Religion is corrupted.
Like the great Jamaïcan poet Mutabaruka used to say "religion have been designed by insecure men to oppress women". But from my experience, and this is while Wikipedia is totaly irrelevant, most Muslim women are highly respected in their society and much happyer than many Westerners. Some of them are not for sure :(, like the afghani Pastuns, but this has nothing to do with Islam, (in Mayotte the inheritance goes to the women)it depends on the ethnical background. and this relevant for the whole Christian mediterranean era. In Egypt, the Copts practice excision...
In the village I have roots in, I have heard about beaten women twice in ten years. The first time, all the women in the village (and they know one another perfectly since they spend much time altogether) blame it on...the woman. And they really explained why. The second time was two years ago. This time, the whole village defended the woman against the man. The father went in the couple's house, took his daughter's stuff and swear (backed by the villagers) that his daughter would never come back because of his behaviour.
I am French, and I know that more women are beaten right here, in French families than in Mali, in Algeria. If you really doubt what I say, I could figure out the official figures in France, Spain, Italy...
In many Muslim countries, the woman is a mother, she is sacred to her children and I have witnessed this high respect and love for mothers in Arabic tribes, highly religious Berbere Mozabites( non Sunna, nether Shi'a), black African Muslims. The Mozabites city of Ghardaïa keeps the reminder of a woman who refused to 'pray' and who would answer the religious leaders of that very pecular society (worth a search) that only God was her judge and so none of them could judge her. She was such a good person that her life was recorded with respect.
Erna, please check how many woman are in university in Iran, look at the role they play in the 'Hezbollah society', as teachers, professors, journalists. The Al Azhar University (founded by the Ismaelians) has declared a moratory on stoning and whipping because they had to be reconsidered in this era, but no western media seem to have notice this important move. This may remotely have something to do with the fact that many French women convert.
Anything can be said of Muhammad, but surely he did help his wife for their daily duties.
Three years ago, in Mali, in a Bambara village (Mutwa talks about them),arrived a new young cultivated Imam (locally called a Marabu) arrived. he informed the population of the prophet's habits (which according to the Sunna Islam must be copied in behaviour) and told the men to do the same. The Bamako's newpaper who ran that story, finished the article saying that all the males chased him out of the village. It is highly probable that peasant in Haute Loire would have done the same with a Curé telling them the same thing a couple of decades ago (no risk he would have say such an heresy anyway
)We should be careful with the mainstream presentation of Islamic civilisations, indeed...
Spiritual Islam, is a treasure and it is a pity I can't advise you to have a look at Eva de Vitray Meyerovitch's book since I don't think it has been translated. Maybe you could try to find Amadou Hampatê Ba's book. In my life I have met so many people of so many different places having links in one way or another with Islam who were just the best guests we would have for damned good conversations. I have so many trustworthy friends in my heart that it is always rather painful to realize how people are ignorants about Islamic civilisation and demonize it. The descriptions of Lobaczewski are relevant in most Muslim society and they are a lot of normal people. I consider and pondered that what the C's have said about 30% of the Bible being of worth and having to be discovered thru meditation can be applied to Kuran.
In many couties Muslim are now educated and there is no doubt that you could easily sympathized with them. Recently I had a look on Muslim websites about UFO's and was amazed how they took it seriously.
When I started this post I knew I wouldn't be able to write for long since I have a flight tomorrow... Frustrating somehow. This is why I choose this style, forgive me. I hope you have understood the point.
The Empire has encouraged the most stupid and fundamentalist Wahabism to achive their aim of destroying this civilisation from within, this is an historical fact.
I will end this post with a love song from the area where I have deep roots with, the Peulh-Songhaï of the Niger borders between Gao and Niamey. Witness how the child "Mariama" had from a precedent wedding is accepted by the lover in front of the community.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THAqP7ANYQ0
You can also watch our sister's dance in the Sahelo-sahara area, wonderful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Ucw830fDU
respect
H
Hildegarda
Guest
Perceval, thank you for the links to the Naomi Wolff articles, especially for the follow-up that I have not yet seen.
This quote in particular stood out:
I think she is absolutely right. The efforts to marginalize Muslims even includes questioning their percentage in the US population in favor of smaller numbers:
\\\http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_islam_usa.html
This quote in particular stood out:
I think she is absolutely right. The efforts to marginalize Muslims even includes questioning their percentage in the US population in favor of smaller numbers:
\\\http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_islam_usa.html
Perceval said:
These articles are quite educational. Thanks. :)
Perceval said:
That is true. I do try and balance it out though with watching Al Jazeera regularly.
Perceval said:
Yes, no I had a conversation with a friend of a friend one night who taught English in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia for years who gave me a bit of an insiders account (he was male – which I think is relevant). Riyadh is of course what I consider on the one extreme, and some of the stories he relayed did leave a feeling of dread with me. That definitely shaped my view to some extend.
Perceval said:
Indeed, but SOTT balanced that out fortunately.
Perceval said:
I don’t think I’m seeing the documentary you intended for me to watch. The one I’m seeing is called The Last Duel.
Perceval said:
I’m with you.
Perceval said:
No I’m not blind to the Western flavour of discrimination, and I have certainly not been spared from it. I guess it’s maybe a case with me of rather the devil that you know, than the one you don’t.
Perceval said:
True.
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