Am I stupid?

[Anamarija]

because knowing/discovering/learning is more important to me!

You are right, this is excellent point of view and great way to lose self importance. Thank you ;).

 

[Anamarija]

Because of this feeling I always feel like I'm on beginning.

That was a very helpful question. Incidentally, it was the exact opposite of 'stupid'.

If you are right we should celebrate the 'stupidity' ;).

 

[Anamarija]

Hi Dakota. I think everyone has very good answers to your questions, so I'll say something different.

Hi Buddy, you always do :).

You've been speaking from your heart ever since your first post on here. I always read yours when I see them because of that reason as well as your humor.

I really like your energy (if this is possible), you always sound like real buddy ;).

Sometimes I think our mind tries to use the emotions of the heart to feel proud of itself...self-important and proud of all its fancy words and it's intelligence and wants to think it is the only important part. The heart doesn't care about any of the fancy words and thoughts and the never-ending words other people like to use to look important and to sound smart.
Don't get me wrong, knowledge is very important and can protect us, but the heart is expert in relations and relationships and that is the main knowledge it wants and uses. The heart has it's own I.Q. as emotional intelligence. It speaks simply and usually gets right to the point. You seem to be good at that, so I wouldn't worry.

I was new age lover before I meet Earwen and Laura, forum and you guys. I thought that science is bullshit, because they change they theory every day. Because of that I didn't learn in school, didn't have any interest for science, only for spirituality and love (emotions). I had a friend, she knew many stuff and I felt very stupid next to her, but then I realized that she knows stuff but that is just facts in her head, just for bragging how smart she is. My way was different, I try to explore everything, experience was my authority. That helped me to, maybe, learn some lessons (which I can see - if this is right - because my life changed in big way from there) but this is not knowledge that I could form to help someone. That is just my experiences that I can't transfer to someone, so I don't see value in that anymore.

In fact, if you can find a "should" that's hiding in a feeling of "stupid", like "I should be smarter", or "I should know that already", or "I should be able to talk like him/her" or something like that, then you might already be a winner. Because then you might be able to connect it all back to an earlier memory and feel better:

I hope that this opening means that I'm ready to change this 'stupid' energy in productive energy ;).

 

[Anamarija]

My advice is that try to see exactly what your supposed stupidity is.

Probably in that moment I'm trying to find excuse to not do the Work or just work.

This Forum is a great place to get our "stupid" buttons pushed as we will - thank goodness- always run into someone on every thread who knows more than we do, or knows more deeply than we do.

You are right. I was so shock when in one discussion on my profile on Facebook one person (that I thought that he is smart) write very 'stupid' stuff about Laura. And he is still friend with Laura. I can't imagine better place for learning then this. Even this is STS thinking I really can understand when someone doesn't see how many help and in which way you can get help here.

My second thought is how is your stupidity self sabotage? How does judging yourself as stupid shut you down?

When I'm in that condition I play video games and just surfing net without any constructive and productive attention. This leads to depression and losing my confidence in my self.

What exactly are your expectations of yourself?

Probably more then I can achieve. I want to know everything, but because of my thinking about school and science I think that I will never reach this knowledge in my life time. Even I know that most of the facts that we learn in school are not accurate and maybe is good that right now I have opportunity to learn real stuff.

The world is filled with utterly empty headed well educated people.

You mean is better to have an empty head to fulfill with good stuff then have a well educated brain with wrong stuff. Ok, then I have advantage from them. ;) Just kidding! :D

 

[Anamarija]

- You are dumb through low intelligence?

If intelligence is how you apply your knowledge in your life I have avoided many traps in life even I didn't poses the Work knowledge. But this can boost only my ego, and we all know that this is just short long feeling.

- You just don't know as much as you feel you should?

Yes, and how can I know what I should know when I don't know what I know or what I don't know . I should once more read links that Aiming put it on the top of the topic.

Secondly, from what vantage point are you judging yourself from

- From a personal ideal?
- In contrast with others?

I think that I'm disappointed with my self because I have needed so much time to came in this point when I know that illusion was so common stuff in every segment of my life. Maybe I should forgive my self and just be happy because I'm here. Good questions, thank you.

Thirdly, what's the scope?

- Do you feel stupid in one or a select set of things?
- Do you feel stupid in everything?

When I'm cocking I'm angry at my self because I didn't have any interest in chemistry. If I know chemistry, oh boy, how could I cook and in same time exploring true life.
When I see stuff from math I remember how I was good in math (my father is mathematician, I didn't learn in school, but in one hour he prepared me for the test in school) and how I enjoyed doing that, but know I feel (obviously If I say feel that is my emotional low center speaking) that now it just to late to learn more about it.
Also about physics, biology and etc.

This is very helpful, I have learn more about my self writing this and answering on your question than just being with my self and thinking that I'm thinking ;).

Are you stupid? I would say, from the top of my head, you aren't one thing. In terms of stupid/clever, I would say you are stupid in some respects and clever in others. You surely cant be good in everything or bad in everything.

Even I agree with you, this sound like neverending loop. I hope that I will reach the state when I always just have need for knowledge without regretting because I don't have it.

 

[Anamarija]

this is my problem all my life. Because of this feeling I always feel like I'm on beginning.

Did (parents, children in school, ...) called when you were a child, stupid?
I ask this because it knows very affect the life of an individual later

Sure, many things in my life supported this program, and I agree with you that that 'helped' growing of this bad attitude and thinking, but if I go in that way I'm afraid that I will feel only bitterness without constructive (something that I can change) way to solve this issue.

 

[casper]

this is my problem all my life. Because of this feeling I always feel like I'm on beginning.

Did (parents, children in school, ...) called when you were a child, stupid?
I ask this because it knows very affect the life of an individual later

Sure, many things in my life supported this program, and I agree with you that that 'helped' growing of this bad attitude and thinking, but if I go in that way I'm afraid that I will feel only bitterness without constructive (something that I can change) way to solve this issue.

Are you thinking about forgiveness, quote:
"If you were dumped or treated badly and have not healed the wounds, you will be very wary, defensive-minded and quarrelsome with other partner or friends, because it continues to wear the pain. When we can not move away from the past, we become prisoners of our worst experiences" - says psychotherapist Frank Luskin, author of "Forgive for Good." The only way out of this vicious circle is forgiveness.

 

[luke wilson]

this is my problem all my life. Because of this feeling I always feel like I'm on beginning.

Did (parents, children in school, ...) called when you were a child, stupid?
I ask this because it knows very affect the life of an individual later

Sure, many things in my life supported this program, and I agree with you that that 'helped' growing of this bad attitude and thinking, but if I go in that way I'm afraid that I will feel only bitterness without constructive (something that I can change) way to solve this issue.

Are you thinking about forgiveness, quote:
"If you were dumped or treated badly and have not healed the wounds, you will be very wary, defensive-minded and quarrelsome with other partner or friends, because it continues to wear the pain. When we can not move away from the past, we become prisoners of our worst experiences" - says psychotherapist Frank Luskin, author of "Forgive for Good." The only way out of this vicious circle is forgiveness.

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[Alada]

I am curious: does rumination on the "am I stupid" question go away by expanding what intelligence is - IQ, EQ, social intelligence etc? Definitely those concepts are useful to learn. But does that learning feed into building new sticks with which we metaphorically beat others and ourselves up?

Yes, I see what you mean. Earlier when writing about 'empty headed intelligent' people I was thinking along the lines of 'well, just look out the window and see the mess that some no doubt very intelligent people have made of the world'. But that doesn't factor in the pathological element. Thought it might be true to say 'here is a very intelligent person, who often does 'stupid' things', that doesn't really make much difference and doesn't excuse our own examples of doing stupid things. I guess the bottom line is (if we exclude any pathological factors for a moment), that were all human, make mistakes, can do stupid things. That doesn't necessarily relate to intelligence though.

I agree, it isn't helpful at all if we turn these notions into sticks to metaphorically beat ourselves or others with. And beyond metaphor, history provides many examples of purges against 'the intelligent classes', purely because they are intelligent/highly educated and seen as a threat. The masses can be turned against all sorts of people with labels and the right propaganda. So yes, dangerous path to go down.

Am I stupid?
No, I may not be book smart but I have social intelligence.
And look at what IQ has bought X; he is empty headed in terms of social skills and life skills.
At least I am better off than X

Do internal (or otherwise) dialogs of this form provide long term solution to the "am I stupid" problem?

Maybe part the problem is in how we handle the term, and there's always the context of who is using it and why to consider. Sometimes we might need to accept it, other times reject it where knowledge shows that the term is being used as a stick by ourselves or others. If examine myself I can see that yes, sometimes I can do do stupid things. To learn from that I need to accept my error - the lack of awareness - and find ways to learn from it - do better next time. Finding myself to be stupid in this context, doesn't mean that I'm fundamentally broken though. You can develop a constructive inner dialogue in this context which can accommodate and accept that sometimes that can be true.

If we look at the educational system we find examples how the idea is used as a means of control and domination. In that context it would obviously be an unhealthy inner dialogue to develop, to label oneself as stupid and come under the sway of that influence. So maybe whether a dialogue is helpful or not really depends on the context, of who and how it is being used. Its a difference of 'sometimes I can be stupid' as opposed to 'I am totally stupid'.

The discussion makes me think of Gurdjieff's 'Idiots' too, and to finding out what sort of idiot we are, pushes similar buttons I think. There's a kind of double edged thing going on there where from one side we don't want to see ourselves as idiots, and shouldn't if the proper context isn't present and/or we beat ourselves up with it. On the other hand, seeing and acknowledging where we are idiots from the perspective of work on oneself can be a big help I think.

In my experience, whenever I have looked at someone and branded him/her with some label, sooner or later I have had evidence to suggest otherwise regarding them or have had a situation which showed me how I may behave in certain circumstances would warrant the same label for myself.

Labels can pertain to "behavior", they are not and should not be all inclusive. So by all means observe and correct behavior that could be improved on. But branding someone as "empty headed" is likely to come back to yourself in some way or the other. Branding or labeling carry emotional charge and when it rebounds, it will most likely affect you. This has to do with empirically established psychological hypotheses, especially Carl Jung's theory of unconscious.

Well maybe that's the thing to watch for the emotional charge. I see the point though, no good exchanging one narrative or illusion for another.

Also generally pertinent in this context is the cognitive/social psychology concept of the fundamental attribution error .

Yes, thanks for that. The example given of the driver who gets cut up at the lights is something I try to practice, interestingly getting a handle on being able to step back practice that kind of thought seems to be very strongly linked to how in control of our own emotions we are.

 

[Michael B-C]

Thanks for opening up this can of worms up Dakota. I certainly understand where you are coming from. I've always thought I was stupid and tried to act clever as compensation. As Casper points out it often starts early - 'stupid child!' - was bred into me by my parents who were both ultra bright academically and regarded all their children as dunderheads. I had/have some form of dyslexia (now, have I spelt that right goes my anxious brain?!) which made so many ‘technical’ subjects such as languages, sciences, maths, impossible for me and combined with the stress of such parenting I was, for many years, what they said I was - stupid. So it stuck with me as a huge fear and a near constant state of distress about being 'found out'.

I suspect it’s very much wrapped up in undue self importance and a form of narcissistic conditioning, certainly I think so in my case. Ones inner consideration is on constant over drive. I recently drafted a long post on the wonderful new session from the C’s - my age old excitability came out as I wanted to share all my research on how water is symbolic of higher ‘divine’ consciousness (information dispersal) in ancient myth and star lore – but then half way through I went ‘this is plain stupid – no one needs to know your ramblings and anyway you can’t compete with all these bright folk who understand the technical aspects of plasma and electrical forces. You're probably just showing off! You’ll make a fool of yourself – AGAIN!’ and so I gave in to the old negative fears and binned it. Over compensation and too much inner consideration. I remember clearly finishing the last volume of the Wave back in 2012 and trudging back through the rain to some grim digs somewhere feeling utterly dejected – because Laura had confirmed for me (that’s how my mind framed the experience I mean) what I had always known – that I was actually structurally, permanently most likely, stupid. That I had no chance of evolving because the basic building blocks were wrongly implanted before I had a chance to even begin and the rest that followed simply confirmed what was always a given.

So being stupid took on a whole new perspective – one involving choices beyond my conscious control – or so it seemed. That sense that there was something missing all along from the state of Denmark, certain attributes or abilities that were fundamental building blocks of an active intelligence rather than a surface flapping about in an effort to create enough noise so no one would notice how stupid I really was. Memory, technical capacities, a facility for swift and progressive learning, all these seemed essential to not being stupid and they evade me. Even now I think posting this is stupid! Which is why I will post because obviously these loops have to be outed and dealt with. So as others have said, your post Dakota is far from stupid – only someone with intelligence can actually be conscious that they are also far from the full shilling and so we must go on, struggling with our machine, and seeking to grow ourselves despite the programmed call that hiding behind stupidity is the only intelligent thing one should do! Now I lost myself there…

 

[Buddy]

...that I was actually structurally, permanently most likely, stupid. That I had no chance of evolving because the basic building blocks were wrongly implanted before I had a chance to even begin and the rest that followed simply confirmed what was always a given.

I'm glad you wrote that. When I'm not busy talking and acting like I might be actually helping someone and yet seeing it not work out, I feel something akin to what you just described. It also connects back to childhood experiences of being less than I, or someone else, thought I should be or that I'm not up to what a situation seemed to call for.

Having spent most of the day wondering on what bothers me most about this thread, I find that the bother is about me. I seem to find it hard to accept that I won't find the right words and method that will exactly solve someone's problem. I feel the impossibility of being able to do any Work on anyone's behalf. I'm not progressed very far in it myself.

So as others have said, your post Dakota is far from stupid – only someone with intelligence can actually be conscious that they are also far from the full shilling and so we must go on, struggling with our machine, and seeking to grow ourselves despite the programmed call that hiding behind stupidity is the only intelligent thing one should do! Now I lost myself there…

Thanks for that too. That's also one of my tendencies...running out of track before I've finished a train of thought that seemed to start out right. I think the forum may have been blessed countless times for all the posts I've had to throw away for this reason.

The idea of being "far from the full shilling" is interesting. What is the full shilling? Maybe those of us who still feel inadequate in some way(s) are already emotionally biased towards idealizing something we see "out there", feeling a desire to possess it. Suddenly finding that our 'ideal' is 'out there' we begin to feel the old pain of being in scarcity and poverty, but we feel it in a new time frame...now.

The above is a dynamic I have observed in myself. If it feels familiar to anyone else, the question may arise: what is the solution? But I have no solutions for anyone. I can point to ISOTM and suggest people do a keyword search on "suffering" and read everything you find, slowing increasing the scope of the context around it. Then wait for the realization to dawn, if it does. Then see how it ties in with what people on here have been saying all along about conscious suffering, doing what "it" doesn't want to do and serving the needs self has for a unified "I" by serving others to our capacity. At least, that's what the material is saying to me. And it's not like I'm any expert at this of course.

 

[David]

As a species, are we intelligent enough to know what intelligence really is, have we got everything backwards, destroying the potential we have while still alive... and if we could turn down the volume of what passes as intelligence, to the point where changing a flat tyre would be considered an act of genius, and the average person struggled too figure it out... one might only feel depressed if you were the person who could change a flat tyre, knowing it only made one a useful idiot, as opposed to an average idiot, until some other idiot arrived and made one feel like a complete idiot... and on and on...

Well if the environment was different, more conducive to forming what passes as intelligence while growing up, well, we would all be mighty clever idiots...

Though it’s not about being clever or stupid is it, its about being... and the growth of knowledge and being.... Anybody I have ever met with some semblance of being, regardless of what passes as intelligence, usually has the ability as it were, ‘to get over themselves.’ which is much easier said than done... when one has established patterns/habits of thinking/doing... though other than saying ‘get over yourself,’ I’m partial to saying to myself ‘get real.’ as I struggle all the time... sometimes I’m just in the habit of getting in my own way, but that’s ok, isn’t it, that’s what we all do from time to time, regardless of what passes as intelligence, or the semblance of it. osit

 

[Psalehesost]

When it comes to what stupidity is and isn't, different kinds of intelligence have been discussed. Another (complementary) way of viewing it is to distinguish between stupid as in lack of intelligence, and stupid as in wrongly used intelligence.

People sometimes say that someone is "as dumb as a rock", but a rock cannot really actively express any stupidity. It's simply a rock. The typical person can express plenty of stupidity. And a genius of great capacity but lacking in true insight can express even greater stupidity. As a metaphor, you could think of computers, and a program which generates nonsense. A more powerful computer can use a "stupidity generator" program to produce nonsense at a greater rate, and/or the nonsense could be more "advanced".

When it comes to schooling in our civlization, what is seen as 'smart' is to function well as a living database, as well as to be capable of using what has been placed in this database (memorized) according to the learned rules. This does not mean that there is any real insight, and memorization and use of things memorized, in itself, only means that stuff flows through your mind and is transformed according to learned patterns.

From a broader perspective, we are all stupid. Most of what we think we know is wrong (including about ourselves), and the patterns we follow are, relatively speaking, ineffective and often counter-productive, and we lack so much insight that we cannot understand how much insight we lack. Relative to what it would mean if we completed the Great Work, this is always the case to some extent, and is simply part of the human condition. Insofar as we suceed in doing the Work, we can begin to form something of genuine intelligence. In comparison, most of what we have been "trained" to do is pretty dumb.

However, that we're all still pretty dumb can be seen in several ways. There's no point constantly feeling horrified by it. It's simply the ever-present reality, which we can only gradually change through work. And then we have this from the C's session of 2 May 2015:

Q: (L) Alright, any other questions?

(Galatea) I have one more. Are the C's able to perceive cuteness? If not, that's okay. But are you? Do you see us as cute?

A: LOL!

Q: (Galatea) I was wondering because we think dogs are cute, and cats. But are we cute? Do they see cuteness?

A: Yes

Q: (Galatea) Are we a little bit cute?

A: Yes

Q: (Galatea) So we're like little dogs to them. [laughter]

(Perceval) Oh, one peed on the carpet! Isn't that cute! [laughter]

This may be a good way of viewing our mechanicality and the gaps in our understanding in combination with a creative potential of the soul.

 

[Anamarija]

this is my problem all my life. Because of this feeling I always feel like I'm on beginning.

Did (parents, children in school, ...) called when you were a child, stupid?
I ask this because it knows very affect the life of an individual later

Sure, many things in my life supported this program, and I agree with you that that 'helped' growing of this bad attitude and thinking, but if I go in that way I'm afraid that I will feel only bitterness without constructive (something that I can change) way to solve this issue.

Are you thinking about forgiveness, quote:
"If you were dumped or treated badly and have not healed the wounds, you will be very wary, defensive-minded and quarrelsome with other partner or friends, because it continues to wear the pain. When we can not move away from the past, we become prisoners of our worst experiences" - says psychotherapist Frank Luskin, author of "Forgive for Good." The only way out of this vicious circle is forgiveness.

Because now I live in totally different environment that I have lived all my life. This is real family and I never feel stupid because of they acting or saying something 'bad' to me. Contrary they all are very supportive, kind and I feel with them only love and respect. I know that my biological family didn't have a knowledge or attention to live different life, narcissism, aggression and lot of self-pity was they nature. But I'm very thankful because they probably gave me foundation of what I needed in life to progress to this point.

 

[Anamarija]

So in the context and aim of the forum and the members here, we can ask the question of ourselves: "Do others think less of me, or that I have 'lesser value' because I lack awareness in this or that area?" Would it ever be true for any of us to say that we don’t lack awareness? And at the same time, through the discussion we gain a little more awareness than we had yesterday. That’s pretty smart! :D

This discussion and questions from others help me in great deal. I have finally start to think about this problem. And my feeling about this is totally different. I'm feeling like a big burden is fall down from my chest.
I hope that this will be helpful to others that have the same feeling.