An interesting conversation with my son

[latulipenoire]

@msante ... Your post was the first one I read today. Thank you! And thanks to your son for questioning you. What a sensitive and intuitive teenager. He is very lucky to have you as his father. With the way you responded to his questions, I think he has so much more room to think hopefully about life. And, isn't that what we are all looking for - answers to our questions (both internal and external). But as usual, answers to our questions today bring on more questions. That may be the purpose of life!? Great job dad!!!

My case exactly, this post and the discussion were the first things I read today here. And wow, @msante you offered such a concise and truthful perspective to your son. I guess you've been managing to share many lessons through the years with your family, from what I gathered readind your words. Those excerpts cited by @brandon are really insightful. @Joe 's suggestion that we may find eventually the answers we seek, even if the search seems futile in the present, is beautiful and precise to the point. I like to think in terms of that famous quotation: "This too shall pass". Even my ignorance shall pass, if I persevere, and maybe this self who seems so immutable will be unrecognizable to myself a few years from now.
From this perspective I look upon my childhood and teenage years and if someone told me I was going to have this perspective I wouldn't believe him. Thank you for sharing with us your wonderful experience with your family Msante. It really is inspiring and an example of how we can apply what we learn.

 

[T.C.]

Thanks for sharing that conversation, msante. Firstly I think your son is obviously an old soul and came here to watch the show at this time. But I also think he made a great choice in who would be his parents.

 

[Wandering Star]

Thanks for sharing that conversation, msante. Firstly I think your son is obviously an old soul and came here to watch the show at this time. But I also think he made a great choice in who would be his parents.

Sorry if I go a bit off topic, but reading your comment about an old soul, I remembered that the C's said there is no such thing as an old soul (I'm paraphrasing and maybe my memory hasn't been very accurate on this).

So it has occurred to me that the possible application of the concept to a soul could be the subtle difference between knowledge and experience, just like when someone reads and knows everything there is to know about riding a bicycle, but only experience ( riding a bicycle and falling until you know how to ride it) makes knowledge yours, of the soul in this case.

So I thought that instead of an old soul, it could be a soul with more experience of applied knowledge.

Just a thought that I had and I didn't want to let it go.

 

[msante]

I loved that you took the time to really see and hear Franco's need to share / ask questions and it feels like you created a space for that to happen without pressure / time limits. Instead of the 'everything will be alright' response - which denies and dismisses the deeper awareness/intuition/insight of a young enquiring mind, you listened thoughtfully and spoke honestly and deeply about your own views. You didn't pretend to have all the answers, but affirmed you have been asking many questions. You helped him (so beautifully!) to explore alternative perspectives, new concepts, further expand and develop his own line of thought, helping him 'unravel things' within himself as you spoke together. This gave you both an opportunity to throw ideas back and forth, consider different views, and for Franco to discover his inner 'existentialist franquilist' (ha ha, love it!). It also seemed to create some form of expansion within you both independently and together, once that had all 'cleared'.

To tell the truth, the reality is that one is not always optimally attuned to what one's children objectively need in circumstances like these. Sometimes you are, sometimes you are not, and sometimes you are more or less. I think it is very difficult to have the right answer, with the right amount of information and a 100% STO approach. At least in my case not everything is so clear in my mind when I am faced with situations where I have to help in some aspect to my children. Many times the answers come from a mix of the will to help, with my own fears and worries (or other biases).

For example, about 10 days ago I was helping my daughter (18 years old) with math. While we were studying we were chatting a bit, until at one point she became more emotional and told me about some problems she was having with some classmates at school (nothing unusual in the teenage world). The thing is that I listened to her and then I tried to make her see the situation from another perspective and even gave her a couple of pieces of advice... WRONG! ... At one point she stopped me clearly angry and said something like this: "Dad, I come here to open my heart and tell you things that happen to me, and you tell me that I should try to look at myself and try to understand the point of view of others, and I do not know what else ... I did not need that, ... I needed you to listen to me!". Indeed, she needed to be heard, just to tell someone how she felt and maybe receive a comforting hug, she wasn't looking for anything else. It had been a long time since I had felt so stupid, inept and useless! Something so simple and I didn't see it. At that moment my desire to be the wise parent and counselor far outweighed my genuine willingness to give her what she objectively needed and was willing to accept as help at that moment.

Here's the reality, not all talks are like the one I had with my son on Sunday.

 

[Scottie]

At one point she stopped me clearly angry and said something like this: "Dad, I come here to open my heart and tell you things that happen to me, and you tell me that I should try to look at myself and try to understand the point of view of others, and I do not know what else ... I did not need that, ... I needed you to listen to me!"

Next time, you might try listening, comforting, whatever. When/if you feel like Fixing It instead of Just Listening, simply ask her if she only wants you to listen or if she also wants advice.

Her response may surprise you.

In any case, both your son and daughter sound like fine, exceptional young people - especially in this day and age!

 

[pinkfreud]

To tell the truth, the reality is that one is not always optimally attuned to what one's children objectively need in circumstances like these. Sometimes you are, sometimes you are not, and sometimes you are more or less. I think it is very difficult to have the right answer, with the right amount of information and a 100% STO approach. At least in my case not everything is so clear in my mind when I am faced with situations where I have to help in some aspect to my children. Many times the answers come from a mix of the will to help, with my own fears and worries (or other biases).

I feel that! I, for example, had to work very diligently as my daughter aged out of toddlerhood to maintain attention and presence with her at all during the “daily grind.” I remember at one point, after one of those magical moments where real bonding happens quite by itself (as though the nature of it is momentarily cutting through the BS and opening the world to us), I said to her and myself: We are going to do something special together every day. Even if only for five minutes, we will do something together that makes us happy.

She has always been a talker, and she prefers conversation to playing for some time now. Often we go for walks or just sit at the table and chat. But it is always a bit of a challenge to calm the pull of to-do lists and worries about personal stressors or dread at the state of the world.

The thing is that I listened to her and then I tried to make her see the situation from another perspective and even gave her a couple of pieces of advice... WRONG! ...

I like to think of my wise sage mother persona as a familiar shadow now, myself
I can hear it creep into my voice, and when I catch it, I’ll say “I’m doing it again, aren’t I?”
And then my daughter says, “Yea,” with that kind of vocal eye roll. Then she tells me to calm down
I can’t fathom how often I put her through that before I started ti figure it out. And it STILL gets the better of me.

Here's the reality, not all talks are like the one I had with my son on Sunday.

Msante, it sounds like you are doing very well with your children, fumbles and all. Parenting is very complex, and you are trying to attend to how many individuals as they grow?
I feel up to my chin with one

 

[msante]

Next time, you might try listening, comforting, whatever. When/if you feel like Fixing It instead of Just Listening, simply ask her if she only wants you to listen or if she also wants advice.

Yes, I'm sure that would be much better .

That said, I have to say that my daughter is pretty proud and stubborn, so she's not usually open to listening to advice (I should have remembered this when I babbled on that time). A window of opportunity usually opens up when she is truly affected by something. In those cases she is usually open to hearing some things that can be painful simply because they are close to the truth.

The point is that as a parent I can say that sometimes we see our children making decisions or behaving in ways that will inevitably lead them into painful situations and our first reaction is to see how to "help" them not to take those paths, to reconsider or consider the consequences. Sometimes it is difficult to have the temperance and awareness to know that one has to accompany and let them hit themselves a little so that they learn their own lessons. So, as I implied in my previous post, there are "eureka" moments where one acts brilliantly and other "I-wish-the-earth-would-swallow-me-up" moments where one behaves like an idiot (and several options in between these two).

More shocking is to discover that many times, behind this apparent attempt to help, what is hidden is the fear that they will make mistakes that make them suffer. And it doesn't even end there, because sometimes when one digs deep enough one realizes that deep down what one is looking for is to avoid one's own suffering as a result of seeing those we love suffer. Sometimes it is truly discouraging to find these dark corners of oneself!

Definitely, as the Cs say, we are STS beings; apparently always, in some dark corner of the soul, even behind those acts that we may consider more human and generous, there is a small speck of selfishness. Or at least that's how it is for me.

 

[jess]

I tried to comfort him, to explain to him that I understood him, that I also had to go through that, I was also an teenager and I had the need to be accepted, but that this can be done without losing one's essence, without ceasing to be oneself. Then he added: "I just feel like a hypocrite pretending to be someone I am not". Again I tried to reassure him: "It's true that maybe one is a bit hypocritical, although I would try to see it differently. Hypocrite' is a word with a very strong negative charge... you are a teenager and you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. Do you feel uncomfortable after having participated in a joke that is in bad taste or too rude? Well, that's the voice of your conscience scolding you. Does the scolding hurt? Yes, of course, but it's okay, little by little you will find the balance to be able to continue being yourself and at the same time to be able to continue relating to other people. But don't be so hard on yourself".

Then we talked a little bit about external consideration and how many times you have to consciously hide a little bit what you think out to respect the free will of the others, and that was pretty much all. At that point the pressure felt relieved and it felt like a weight had been lifted off my son's shoulders. We then moved on to a more jovial and relaxed chat.

After the talk I was filled with a bittersweet sensation. On the one hand a feeling of sadness, of pain for experiencing my son's anguish so closely, and on the other hand a feeling of a certain joy because I felt that these "flares" of conscience that afflict my son are essentially good for his development.

Thanks msante for sharing, there are very good comments here, your son is fortunate to have you as a parent and you can support him, it reminded me of my adolescence too and also that feeling of not fitting in socially with the majority and sometimes with the same biological family continues throughout adulthood, it seems to be not only experienced in adolescence, but it is until you find places like here, in this forum, that you can continue with spiritual exploration beyond the materialistic parameters that weigh more in society today.

I tried to comfort him, to explain to him

I wonder what could be the balance to guide children to develop inner strength, because certainly our reality can be quite cruel and it is also impossible to hide the truth from them or overprotect them.

 

[forest_light]

The point is that as a parent I can say that sometimes we see our children making decisions or behaving in ways that will inevitably lead them into painful situations and our first reaction is to see how to "help" them not to take those paths, to reconsider or consider the consequences. Sometimes it is difficult to have the temperance and awareness to know that one has to accompany and let them hit themselves a little so that they learn their own lessons.

Beautifully said.
From my own experience, I have observed that there is also a fine line in terms of how much they can be allowed to 'hit themselves' before this creates even more serious problems, particularly if they are already so wounded they are unable to see how they are contributing to their own pain. At times, I personally have found it a very hard road to travel beside my children, see and feel them in deep soul pain, but still stand back, be the one loving them 'through it' but honouring their right to their own experience. I have learned (the hard way, of course ) that it is not really helpful to step in too often or too quickly.

It can be hard finding that balance... that 'temperance', you mentioned. I feel it is also helpful to recognise what we have patterned to our children consciously / unconsciously; we can see that these 'gifts' from us can be a big part of the impetus that leads them to experience and explore 'challenges' just as we did, yet we see they have the potential to respond differently to the way we did under similar circumstances, if we just give them the space to work it out for themselves. Easier said than done sometimes, and it definitely depends on the 'challenge' they are facing, but if we have put a lot of effort into loving and raising our children, faith is generally the key at that point, otherwise we rob them of their instincts, independence and Free Will and that only leads to dysfunction, 'learned helplessness' and a general inability to function in what some like to call the 'real world'.

More shocking is to discover that many times, behind this apparent attempt to help, what is hidden is the fear that they will make mistakes that make them suffer. And it doesn't even end there, because sometimes when one digs deep enough one realizes that deep down what one is looking for is to avoid one's own suffering as a result of seeing those we love suffer. Sometimes it is truly discouraging to find these dark corners of oneself!

Ugh. I read your comment above and immediately saw these dynamics between myself and my daughter. It can be discouraging to discover something like this about ourselves, but at the same time, it offers an opportunity to learn, grow and transform - and in doing so that has a 'butterfly effect' on many levels. Although the journey has, at times, been incredibly painful for my daughter and I - it is heartening to also see how far we have come since I discovered and joined this forum - how much it has transformed the way she and I connect, relate and communicate, and how much it has inspired me to consciously, objectively observe myself and others with new eyes.

Msante, thanks for sharing so honestly. It sounds/feels as though you are doing a pretty fantastic job in general with your teens, IMHO. I think the 'listening' part is one of the most crucial, helping them to hear themselves (but first we have to hear them clearly ourselves, without our own 'filter' or 'fears'). 'Empathy' is also important. You are no 'idiot' at all, you are just learning and 'being human' like the rest of us. I tend to think, that if our parenting shows a 'deficit' on some level, that perhaps in part that can also be due to the 'lack of' in our own upbringing and this affects us all in different ways. Sometimes we can also overcompensate for the deficits in our own upbringing and that too can have disasterous consequences! As with all in life... balance is essential.

If only all kids had a parent that was half as emotionally available to the degree you are, and willing to take the time to connect with them the way you do with your kids, this world would be a very different place.

 

[Bernardo GA]

Thank you very much Msante.
I am thoroughly enjoying what you have shared, as well as everyone else's words in this thread.
I'm sure!!! that in telling us about the conversation with your son, you were inspired, responding to Alma's calls.

It is evident that the Souls are connected in some way, because there are a few of us, who were in need of a good dose of HOPE, which has reached its destination, through the moving account of the encounter with your son. Sometimes Love is visible.

Regarding the conversation with your daughter, I understand that you felt it was clumsy on your part, but I sincerely believe that it was not, at least not totally. It is true that maybe! your daughter needed your hug at that moment, and you feel bad about it.

First of all, if we think we can know exactly what others need, it's a sign that we are fast asleep.
Also, your attempt to help her with suggestions and advice, was after Listening to her!

It is very possible that later on in your daughter's journey, she herself will realize her father's pain that time, and she will be the one who wants to hug you.

My daughter is 23 years old. I find it very difficult to strike a balance in terms of protection, so that I don't fall into over-cushioning. We don't want them to suffer, but we also want them to become strong people.
This is already like parenting therapy.

Whether we are parents or not, the very fact of living in this crazy world has an extraordinary learning potential.
I would like your son Franco to know that I am 52 years old, and I still find it difficult to interact with people in general, without having to pretend a little, or hide my true feelings at times.

The important thing I think, is to be aware of it, and Franco clearly is.
"Being authentic," doesn't include exposing yourself totally. Taking care of yourself is also important.

Thank you guys.
A hug.

Muchas gracias Msante.
Estoy disfrutando muchísimo lo que has compartido, como también las palabras de todos los demás en este hilo.
¡Estoy seguro! que al contarnos la conversación con tu hijo, estabas inspirado, respondiendo a las llamadas de Alma.

Es evidente que las Almas están conectadas de alguna manera, porque somos unos cuantos, los que estábamos necesitando una buena dosis de ESPERANZA, que ha llegado a destino, a través del relato conmovedor del encuentro con tu hijo. A veces el Amor es visible.

Con respecto a la conversación con tu hija, comprendo que lo hayas sentido como una torpeza de tu parte, pero sinceramente creo que no lo fue, al menos no totalmente. Es cierto que ¡quizás! tu hija necesitara tu abrazo en ese momento, y te sientes mal por eso.

En primer lugar, si creemos que podemos saber exactamente lo que necesitan los demás, es señal de que estamos durmiendo profundamente.
Además, tu intento por ayudarla con sugerencias y consejos, fue después de ¡Escucharla!

Es muy posible que más adelante en el camino de tu hija, ella misma se de cuenta del dolor de su padre aquella vez, y sea ella quien quiera abrazarte.

Mi hija tiene 23 años. Me resulta muy difícil lograr un equilibrio en cuanto a la protección, para no caer en un exceso de almohadones. No queremos que sufran, pero también queremos que se conviertan en personas fuertes.
Esto ya se parece a una terapia de padres.

Seamos padres o no, el hecho mismo de ¡vivir en este loco mundo!, tiene un potencial de aprendizaje extraordinario.
Me gustaría que tu hijo Franco, supiera que tengo 52 años de edad, y todavía me cuesta interactuar con la gente en general, sin tener que fingir un poco, o disimular mis verdaderos sentimientos en ocasiones.

Lo importante creo, es estar consciente de ello, y es evidente que Franco lo está.
"Ser auténtico", no incluye exponerse totalmente. Cuidarse también es importante.

Gracias muchachos.
Un abrazo.

 

[lilyalic]

Wow what a conversation that was so interesting to read, all those questions from a 14 year old are brilliant and you sound like the perfect father for your children! Thank you for sharing this.

I hope my son grows up to be as inquisitive and I get to speak to him the same as you spoke to your son. I relate with your son's "what's the point?" In everything as I myself struggled with the same concept in therapy for years! I even used to explain to my therapist that I felt I was being used by my soul, and I was just a boat for my soul to travel in and experience this realm, and my personality, my name and experiences didn't matter.

I think at some point you accept that you won't ever truly know for sure but it's what you choose to believe is the point of it all, in the end!

 

[heinrich]

an intelligent thread. does this have a relation with indigo children? and i am glad to see that the son turns to the father, and that the father considers this problem seriously. i wish all of you all the best.

 

[msante]

an intelligent thread. does this have a relation with indigo children?

Not exactly. Although if you are interested in the subject and would like a perspective stripped of new age noise/disinformation, this post by Laura would be a good place to start (link). Laura also devotes a good portion of chapter 8 of The Wave to talk about the subject, which in a nutshell could be synthesized as "indigo children are not only what new agers say they are, but everything points to the fact that they are the opposite (extremely dangerous psychopathic entities)".