another Gurdjieff quote

[NewOrleans]

Brutal honesty. Yes, yes, and yeas. Thank you anart for posting this. It brings tears to my eyes.

 

[Joe]

On the issue of "energetic feeding" I have come to see my posting of posters-for-donation as a unconscious wish to find acceptance (false-personality feeding). I don't have the gift of writing insightful research as others do, I do have a gift for art, but it's not always certain what to do with it here..for me, at least. My issue is both narcissistic and self-esteem.

I volunteer free stuff, often. I have caught myself red-handed lately in the trap of looking for a "feeding" more than once lately and I don't like it. As often as I tell myself that approval is not a worthy goal, somewhere in the back of my head, I find that rationalization for that ego expectation is just the opposite, then denial, then expectation again. I sense that the only way to put "the brakes on this lying" is to get it out and say it's me, it's in me and I don't like it.

Here I was, using images of Gurdjieff himself to find the very thing he criticized. Seeking validation for my Self.

I don't see anything wrong with those motivations in this case. In fact, I don't see anything 'wrong' with those motivations in any case. None of us are 'prefect' in the sense that we are all still self-serving beings. We try to change from that orientation to 'service to others' by using our drive towards self-interest to serve others. I think your suggestion about offering the posters for donations to Cass was a good example of precisely this - your motivation was selfish but it was being used in service to other at the same time. The bottom line is (usually) "what is the end result"? The end result here was a tangible contribution to our work.

So, which posters have you chosen? Can we see them all together in one post?

 

[NewOrleans]

these don't seem to want to enlarge beyond this size, so I'll post the sayings:

1.) Remember you come here having already understood the necessity of struggling with yourself -- only with yourself. Therefore thank everyone who gives you the opportunity."

2.) "It is very difficult to explain what takes place in me when I see anything majestic, which allows no doubt that it proceeds from Our Maker Creator. Each time, I weep, that is to say, it weeps in me, not from grief, no, but as if from tenderness."

3.) "Practice love on animals first, they react better and more sensitively."

 

[Joe]

Nice! So could you send one to the folks at the Chateau? Number 1 would be appropriate I think. Are these actual paper posters or do just send a file for printing?

 

[NewOrleans]

Perceval, yes I can. I have the prints made and then mail them. Please provide a mailing address and I'll proceed (and pay for it.) Give a donation, please? :P. One extra note: I delete all addresses once a package has been shipped as a measure of security.

 

[ScarletBegonias]

Scarlet, there is no need to email. You can both discuss any needed details in this thread. Please stop encouraging people to communicate with you off list or your posting privileges will be removed.

I interpreted anart's post as telling me that I am to NEVER encourage people to communicate with me off list again or my posting privileges would be removed. I accepted that I would not be able to buy a poster, because it would not be possible for me to give NewOrleans my personal mail information and also to send payment without engaging in dialogue via personal email.

You can always just ask a moderator what they think about some prospective off-list communication. Next time, just choose the moderator who you least want to ask, and ask him/her about the matter.

When I read your response Patience, initially I thought you were trying to lighten things with a joke so I put a comment saying something like this: "LOL thanks for the tip! I think it would be Laura then, but can a person without PM privileges actually contact a moderator privately without the "report to moderator" function in threads? If not I understand, because of my previous actions."

After I went offline I continued thinking about both comments, because I felt I was on "thin-ice" with the forum and didn't want to lose my posting privileges. I thought of how your comment suggested that I might want to attempt to engage in off list contact with another member in the future, but it just didn't make sense, because anart had just posted that I am not to do that again. Then I thought of how you suggested I contact a moderator, but it was obvious that I have no PM capabilities and the idea that you were making a joke of me came to mind. I felt confused, disheartened, drained, mad, foolish, and then thought that this could be another example of energetic feeding. So, I modified my reply to you to say, "It's fine. It's not happening again..."

I recognized I didn't know your side of it and that I am still learning how to apply these terms properly. I also recognized that I am highly-sensitive (likely due to traumas I experienced earlier in my life) and perhaps this could instead be an example of me being overly sensitive. I wanted to know the truth and appreciate your response to help me better understand it. Thank you, Patience! :)

To all: This is MY fault for putting this art poster out there. Except for the transaction I had with Jerry, which went quite well, as expected, it has become an opportunity for trouble. I didn't foresee that it would turn out like this. My original intention was to provide a creative way to make a simple donation to the Forum by selling these Gurdjieff prints. Nothing more or less. I'll close this project down now and ask that it end here. Sorry, Scarlet.

Thanks NewOrleans, but my actions were not your fault. :) I can learn from it, because it helps me to see how I do this too. For example, in my classroom if I have observed student A has been verbally abusive to student B, depending on the situation, I might give student A a warning. If the behavior occurs again I might take action and move student A's seat away from student B. If that happens I have the tendency to apologize to student B for student A's behavior, but why am I the one apologizing???

It is impossible for me to accurately predict an outcome of a situation, especially when people are involved and free will is going on all over the place. I think that I think I have too much power over the environment in my classroom, and that opens it up for me to be too hard on myself when a student, by their own free will, acts up. I am going to work on not being sorry in these situations. Even if my actions in the past could have opened it up for their actions to occur, it doesn't mean that I actually caused them to do what they did.

I don't want to feed my life force at the expense of someone else's and appreciate feedback regarding my thoughts here. I thought the "gnome" hat G would look cute on the wall in my class and it would make me smile when I saw it so I could feed off of it sometimes. I envisioned my students pointing to the hat, questioning me about the man, engaging in dialogue with me about the quote and that this would be a symbiotic relationship. I also thought the forum and the readers, including myself, could benefit from the monetary support and that this would be another example of a symbiotic relationship. I thought NewOrleans might benefit from "reaping sewn seeds" after all this effort had been made and that nobody's life force would be depleted over this.

I recognized that I have the ability to modify my profile on this forum to include my personal email address and then I thought maybe I would just post it on this thread instead since I already had to write a post to tell NewOrleans I wanted one. As it is, I still would like a print, but my priority is to be a part of this forum, because I am learning so much and hoping I can contribute to the learning experience of others. Therefore I have taken heed of anart's warning to me and will not attempt to engage in off list contact with members on here again.

Scarlett, have you read about self-importance yet? If not, maybe this would be a good time.

Self-importance is a very hard program to get under control as it reacts to a myriad of triggers. It goes right along with internal considering. And these are programs we are all constantly having to keep a watch on and have to deal with.

Our ego gets bruised so we try to blame things on others, or point the finger at another because they have hurt our ego.

Just something more to watch for and learn about. But, hey, learning is fun! :D

Thank you, Nienna Eluch, and yes learning is fun! :D I contemplated my ego's part in this, because it did feel bruised from anart's post, but I recognized the importance of the forum protecting itself and the other members and I respected that. After I compared anart's with Patience's response, I realized I was starting to make things up, like the tables had turned and maybe Patience got a little bite out of me, but I was confused about it.

I decided I would ask Patience for clarification as nicely as possible so as to seek the objective truth, because I recognized my version of it was subjective and I was just lying to myself without fully understanding what Patience had written. I thought perhaps I am one who is quick to "bruise" and I wanted to know if I lost energy because of my own account, because of Patience, or because of both of us.

In general, I am noticing more how I wound myself, because my mind tends to get traumatized over little things. I wanted to use this as an example so I could better understand these dynamics and did my best to be humble with my questions to Patience. Writing the post to Patience required courage and trauma on my part, because I felt I might be opening myself up on this forum to suffer again. But I decided my priority was to learn and if I did not understand the only way to know was to ask. I appreciate your observant insights here and thank you for these links, I have just read them!

Hi Scarlet,

I am wondering if perhaps that you think this is another example of your being assertive? I ask because of your following post that was also in refernce to a reaction that you had to comments that were not personal or insulting in any way:

Quote by Scarlet:

Thank you, Approaching Infinity, for this considerate explanation and also for mentioning Jay Carter to me! Reading back in EmeraldHope's post I see now that it was you who mentioned him to me. In response to the pretzel comment, the comment I posted in this thread was my effort at being assertive on this forum as I have been working to be with my friends and family in recent days. So far everything is going smoothly with that and I am thankful for it, though I have observed my mother becoming slightly annoyed here and there...

That was from this thread: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23640.30.html


I ask this , because when one has had long term issues with boundaries, it is a very fine line in knowing when to assert oneself and why. It took me quite a long time to get that down, and I am still not perfect with it by a long shot. I agree with everyone here that Patience's post was very factual and not sarcastic at all.

Quote by Scarlet

The reason I ask is because I felt a bit disheartened and drained by what I perceived as sarcasm

What you were feeling was a "shock" to your predator/false personality. I note from your prior posts that you have read ISOTM. If you can remember the references to shocks, and how they are needed to grow, this is a good example.

I also note that you had originally replied to Patience with a nice response and listed who your most feared moderator was, but then went back and erased it. The you came back later and posted the 1st quote here. So it seems to me that you stewed on it for a while, just like in the thread I also quoted here. Perhaps that may be a sign the predator is on the prowl?

Thank you EmeraldHope, because I thought of the assertiveness factor and boundary issues, because of our discussions in the Swamp! :) After I wrote the post, I consciously recognized that it could possibly be an example of assertiveness. Initially, I brushed off Patience's response with my mechanical passivity, but then afterwards began to feel "low energy" and questioned why I was feeling that way. I began to attempt to better understand Patience's underlying motives for writing that post, came to a few different conclusions, realized they were all assumptions and that maybe Patience could offer insights to aid in my understanding of this situation. I am learning about the boundary issues I have had with people too, because growing up my life was literally an open book for my mother. Perhaps I accept being open more than others do, because of that and it is interesting for me to note this.

FWIW, I'm glad you and others didn't notice any sarcasm in Patience's post, because I started coming at it from the, "I can't send PMs to moderators AND anart even just told me not to ever do it again so what is Patience really suggesting here?" viewpoint. And I do accept that my analytical mind goes predatory sometimes and that's not healthy, so thanks for noting it too!

I want to understand these dynamics as much as possible on this forum so that I can grow by improving how I think, feel and interact with others. I don't want to suck on other peoples' energy or be sucked on either. This forum is proving to be a safe place for me to come to understand these and other dynamics about myself so much better. Thank you!

 

[Joe]

I recognized I didn't know your side of it and that I am still learning how to apply these terms properly. I also recognized that I am highly-sensitive (likely due to traumas I experienced earlier in my life) and perhaps this could instead be an example of me being overly sensitive.

[...]

I want to understand these dynamics as much as possible on this forum so that I can grow by improving how I think, feel and interact with others. I don't want to suck on other peoples' energy or be sucked on either. This forum is proving to be a safe place for me to come to understand these and other dynamics about myself so much better. Thank you!

I think you were being a little over-sensitive, but that is understandable in the context, and you're doing pretty well, IMO, at figuring out how your 'machine' works. If you still want a poster, you can send me your name and address by PM and I'll pass it on to NewOrleans and you can make a donation. Just to clarify, all members can, or should, be able to PM a moderator or administrator.

 

[ScarletBegonias]

I recognized I didn't know your side of it and that I am still learning how to apply these terms properly. I also recognized that I am highly-sensitive (likely due to traumas I experienced earlier in my life) and perhaps this could instead be an example of me being overly sensitive.

[...]

I want to understand these dynamics as much as possible on this forum so that I can grow by improving how I think, feel and interact with others. I don't want to suck on other peoples' energy or be sucked on either. This forum is proving to be a safe place for me to come to understand these and other dynamics about myself so much better. Thank you!

I think you were being a little over-sensitive, but that is understandable in the context, and you're doing pretty well, IMO, at figuring out how your 'machine' works. If you still want a poster, you can send me your name and address by PM and I'll pass it on to NewOrleans and you can make a donation. Just to clarify, all members can, or should, be able to PM a moderator or administrator.

Thank you so much, Perceval! I would very much like the "gnome" hat one with the animal quote, but I do not know how to PM you because my privileges have been taken away. I can select "report to moderator" in this thread, but I don't know who that goes to.

Edit: I changed my mind and would prefer the one with this quote, if possible: "Remember you come here having already understood the necessity of struggling with yourself -- only with yourself. Therefore thank everyone who gives you the opportunity." :)

 

[Joe]

You can send me an email Scarlet with your address and I will pass it on to NewOrleans. Then you can make a donation.

 

[Breo]

Thank you all for sharing in this interesting thread. I learn so much in following it.

Hallo NewOrleans, I would like to order Poster #1. Beautifull artwork.

About the order procedure I am a bit confused. Shall I send my contact details through a moderator? And then I make a donation to FotCM.

You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

The Mme de Salzmann quote, which I read before touches me deeply. It seems that I can feel it now how this weak insubstantial me disappears immediately again, as it cannot endure the lies that my other nature constantly produces. I am speechless about the brutal clarity of the discription. Thank you for making me see.

 

[NewOrleans]

Breo, it's good of you to appreciate the posters but right now I cannot afford to print more: the fees for this come out of my pocket. Please hold off and I will fulfill this at another time. Thanks. I'll find a way.

 

[ScarletBegonias]

Breo, it's good of you to appreciate the posters but right now I cannot afford to print more: the fees for this come out of my pocket. Please hold off and I will fulfill this at another time. Thanks. I'll find a way.

Hey NewOrleans, I have done this before with my artwork, but lost quite a bit of money over it while trying to "find a way." I found that calculating my expenses and subtracting them from the donation amount was a key factor in sustaining my little donation system. (Just donating the proceeds, not the entire donation amount.) I also found that selling things is not my forte or interest and that just donating the prints themselves to charities for fundraisers was less work for me, but I already have the prints made. Well, I hope this helps you and do let us know if you get back into it!

 

[Tigersoap]

Breo, it's good of you to appreciate the posters but right now I cannot afford to print more: the fees for this come out of my pocket. Please hold off and I will fulfill this at another time. Thanks. I'll find a way.

Hey NewOrleans, I have done this before with my artwork, but lost quite a bit of money over it while trying to "find a way." I found that calculating my expenses and subtracting them from the donation amount was a key factor in sustaining my little donation system. (Just donating the proceeds, not the entire donation amount.)

Hi New Orleans,
Yes it would make sense to do this otherwise you won't be able to keep printing and make donations ;)
You may even consider online businesses that are printing small batches for cheap.
Fwiw.

 

[Breo]

Breo, it's good of you to appreciate the posters but right now I cannot afford to print more: the fees for this come out of my pocket. Please hold off and I will fulfill this at another time. Thanks. I'll find a way.

Hey NewOrleans, I have done this before with my artwork, but lost quite a bit of money over it while trying to "find a way." I found that calculating my expenses and subtracting them from the donation amount was a key factor in sustaining my little donation system. (Just donating the proceeds, not the entire donation amount.)

Hi New Orleans,
Yes it would make sense to do this otherwise you won't be able to keep printing and make donations ;)
You may even consider online businesses that are printing small batches for cheap.
Fwiw.

Hi NewOrleans, thats a good idea that Tigersoap proposed. As an illustrator you are probably familiar with some online artsites through which your posters could be ordered and you need not to take care of the printing and costs. You upload the file and set a price, that would include your expenses and the donation, that you then would transfer to the Group. Maybe that helps : )