another Gurdjieff quote

To all: This is MY fault for putting this art poster out there. Except for the transaction I had with Jerry, which went quite well, as expected, it has become an opportunity for trouble. I didn't foresee that it would turn out like this. My original intention was to provide a creative way to make a simple donation to the Forum by selling these Gurdjieff prints. Nothing more or less. I'll close this project down now and ask that it end here. Sorry, Scarlet.
 
Scarlet said:
Patience said:
You can always just ask a moderator what they think about some prospective off-list communication. Next time, just choose the moderator who you least want to ask, and ask him/her about the matter.
Hi Patience, I am doing my best to understand energetic feeding and am curious if you consider your comment to be an example of this. The reason I ask is because I felt a bit disheartened and drained by what I perceived as sarcasm. Did you find your comment amusing? Did you intend for me to find it amusing? I am not looking to stir any water here, but I would like to understand the dynamics of energetic feeding better, thanks! :)

I didn't pick up on any sarcasm in Patience's post, for the record. I found it to be quite helpful to you, actually. It might be worth examining why you had the reaction you had.

neworleans said:
To all: This is MY fault for putting this art poster out there. Except for the transaction I had with Jerry, which went quite well, as expected, it has become an opportunity for trouble. I didn't foresee that it would turn out like this. My original intention was to provide a creative way to make a simple donation to the Forum by selling these Gurdjieff prints. Nothing more or less. I'll close this project down now and ask that it end here. Sorry, Scarlet.

NewOrleans, you are not responsible for anyone's behavior but your own. It might be worth examining your emotional reaction to this as well, since it is out of proportion to the reality of the situation.
 
Anart, I didn't say I was responsible for anyone else's behavior at all. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said that maybe this project had unintended consequences. How is that out of proportion? My solution was to not continue this project of creative donation. Why that reaction?
 
NewOrleans said:
Anart, I didn't say I was responsible for anyone else's behavior at all. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said that maybe this project had unintended consequences. How is that out of proportion? My solution was to not continue this project of creative donation. Why that reaction?

Your premise is that your starting a thread with a poster is the cause of what has followed with Scarlet - that it is all YOUR fault, as you put it. I'm pointing out that you are not that powerful.

There is no reason to 'close down the project' - that is not the issue here. If you no longer want to produce posters, then that's fine, but please don't confuse that with the idea that you have caused anything here.

Is that clearer?
 
NewOrleans said:
I said that maybe this project had unintended consequences. How is that out of proportion?

In that no negative consequences have been seen thus far.

I don't see anything at all here to be worried or regretful about. Just a standard thing that happens all the time, all over the place - a person has something to struggle with - if not here, then elsewhere.
 
Psalehesost said:
NewOrleans said:
I said that maybe this project had unintended consequences. How is that out of proportion?

In that no negative consequences have been seen thus far.

I don't see anything at all here to be worried or regretful about. Just a standard thing that happens all the time, all over the place - a person has something to struggle with - if not here, then elsewhere.

Yeah, I think you were overreacting and mistakenly thinking that you caused that. To me, it looked just like a misunderstanding and clarification of helpful advice. Like Psalehesost said, it happens time to time in a thread where someone will ask about something and then learning happens.
 
Thank you 3D Student. Yes, I overreacted. I understand and appreciate the way you put it. I was thinking that I needed to take responsibility for starting this thread AND the consequences, which were not mine to take on.

Clear as a bell, anart.

(edit: fixed grammatical error)
 
Scarlet said:
Patience said:
You can always just ask a moderator what they think about some prospective off-list communication. Next time, just choose the moderator who you least want to ask, and ask him/her about the matter.
Hi Patience, I am doing my best to understand energetic feeding and am curious if you consider your comment to be an example of this. The reason I ask is because I felt a bit disheartened and drained by what I perceived as sarcasm. Did you find your comment amusing? Did you intend for me to find it amusing? I am not looking to stir any water here, but I would like to understand the dynamics of energetic feeding better, thanks! :)

Scarlett, have you read about self-importance yet? If not, maybe this would be a good time.

Self-importance is a very hard program to get under control as it reacts to a myriad of triggers. It goes right along with internal considering. And these are programs we are all constantly having to keep a watch on and have to deal with.

Our ego gets bruised so we try to blame things on others, or point the finger at another because they have hurt our ego.

Just something more to watch for and learn about. But, hey, learning is fun! :D
 
Scarlet said:
Patience said:
You can always just ask a moderator what they think about some prospective off-list communication. Next time, just choose the moderator who you least want to ask, and ask him/her about the matter.
Hi Patience, I am doing my best to understand energetic feeding and am curious if you consider your comment to be an example of this. The reason I ask is because I felt a bit disheartened and drained by what I perceived as sarcasm. Did you find your comment amusing? Did you intend for me to find it amusing? I am not looking to stir any water here, but I would like to understand the dynamics of energetic feeding better, thanks! :)


Hi Scarlet,

I am wondering if perhaps that you think this is another example of your being assertive? I ask because of your following post that was also in refernce to a reaction that you had to comments that were not personal or insulting in any way:

Quote by Scarlet:
Thank you, Approaching Infinity, for this considerate explanation and also for mentioning Jay Carter to me! Reading back in EmeraldHope's post I see now that it was you who mentioned him to me. In response to the pretzel comment, the comment I posted in this thread was my effort at being assertive on this forum as I have been working to be with my friends and family in recent days. So far everything is going smoothly with that and I am thankful for it, though I have observed my mother becoming slightly annoyed here and there...

That was from this thread: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23640.30.html


I ask this , because when one has had long term issues with boundaries, it is a very fine line in knowing when to assert oneself and why. It took me quite a long time to get that down, and I am still not perfect with it by a long shot. I agree with everyone here that Patience's post was very factual and not sarcastic at all.

Quote by Scarlet
The reason I ask is because I felt a bit disheartened and drained by what I perceived as sarcasm

What you were feeling was a "shock" to your predator/false personality. I note from your prior posts that you have read ISOTM. If you can remember the references to shocks, and how they are needed to grow, this is a good example.

I also note that you had originally replied to Patience with a nice response and listed who your most feared moderator was, but then went back and erased it. The you came back later and posted the 1st quote here. So it seems to me that you stewed on it for a while, just like in the thread I also quoted here. Perhaps that may be a sign the predator is on the prowl?
 
On the issue of "energetic feeding" I have come to see my posting of posters-for-donation as a unconscious wish to find acceptance (false-personality feeding). I don't have the gift of writing insightful research as others do, I do have a gift for art, but it's not always certain what to do with it here..for me, at least. My issue is both narcissistic and self-esteem.

I volunteer free stuff, often. I have caught myself red-handed lately in the trap of looking for a "feeding" more than once lately and I don't like it. As often as I tell myself that approval is not a worthy goal, somewhere in the back of my head, I find that rationalization for that ego expectation is just the opposite, then denial, then expectation again. I sense that the only way to put "the brakes on this lying" is to get it out and say it's me, it's in me and I don't like it.

Here I was, using images of Gurdjieff himself to find the very thing he criticized. Seeking validation for my Self. I admit it. As someone said, it's a very hard program to get under control. I was also not taking criticism very well. So in examining this once again, while I can't take responsibility for anyone else's struggle, I can face and then take responsibility for my own. My impulse of presenting inspirational artwork for Forum donations started, I told myself, as sincere until I examined my deeper motives: Participation without hard Work. But it WAS sincere as I initiated it. There's no free ride in changing habits. Yes, running little programs of "like me, like my art." seem almost juvenile since it goes back a long way in myself. Self-esteem. Someone suggested I reread the glossary section on "energetic feedings" and "internal considering" and I have, slowly this time. And I will again.

Why does this internal predator get so mad when being exposed? I'd been mad all day. Flipping around like an alligator caught on a rope. There is no good side to this insight other than the wish to stop this and still be creative. I don't know a single artist who isn't facing the same issues. Creativity is supposed to bring us higher not lower.
 
NewOrleans said:
On the issue of "energetic feeding" I have come to see my posting of posters-for-donation as a unconscious wish to find acceptance (false-personality feeding). I don't have the gift of writing insightful research as others do, I do have a gift for art, but it's not always certain what to do with it here..for me, at least.

You have missed the entire point of the Work we do here. The most important gift you can give to this forum and this group of people is to be sincere and brutal with yourself as you engage in the Work. The most valuable thing you can give, or do, here is to deeply grasp that your soul is at stake and that you are your own worst enemy.

In other words, all that is asked of you is deep sincerity and a willingness to question your own thinking when it is the hardest thing in the world to do. We don't ask anything else - we don't need anything else, because without this effort on your part, you can't Do anything anyway.

A small start would be to go back through your posts and find the times you have dismissed the input of others as 'not true' or 'not applying to you', though it was true and did apply to you. Until you begin to grasp the idea that you are much more transparent than you think yourself to be, you're going to have a bumpy ride...

Narcissism and self-importance are the most common of all obstacles, so it's good you noticed them before you - now it's up to you.
 
I've had issues of denial and identity all my life. I was born transgendered and that probably compounded the thousands of false "i"s that anyone ever had to deal with. I didn't choose to be gender conflicted and it was nothing my parents "caused". It just was, as early as I ever could remember. This is the first time I've ever mentioned it outside of close friends.
Brutal honesty? I've been badly beaten up, stabbed and robbed, ridiculed and rejected most of my early life. Friends died of AIDS or suicide. Until the Stonewall riots of 1969 and gay people started standing up for themselves became role models for many of us. I've created a balance in my life of male/female identity that is as honest as I can make it after choosing not to get sex reassignment surgery at Johns Hopkins Clinic. I went there. So I chose, instead, to work for self-growth and not some surgical "fix" of Vanity. Contending with social prejudice and rejection had not been easy, but that's still no excuse. That was just ordinary ignorance. The only one I have to overcome is myself. I understand that.
Here I'm just me, another soul that wants to be awake, and I don't want to run away or lie. I never expected this to be easy, but harder. All I want is to strip away the false stuff and find my soul intact.
My health issues I'm taking as my wake-up call to fix what I can by myself. As a start, I threw out all the coffee and our meals are so much more deliberately planned. It's a start.
I DO recognize, Anart, that this Forum is ONLY about truthful Work on oneself and not lame socializing. The artwork was, I thought, my way of introducing myself slowly. And, yes, I do find myself rebelling against criticism. Hard to accept until it's pounded in past defensiveness. So if I acted rudely or denied criticism I apologize. Denial is a useless thing to hold on to while trying to be strong in so many other ways. I will try harder.
 
NewOrleans said:
Here I'm just me, another soul that wants to be awake, and I don't want to run away or lie. I never expected this to be easy, but harder. All I want is to strip away the false stuff and find my soul intact.
My health issues I'm taking as my wake-up call to fix what I can by myself. As a start, I threw out all the coffee and our meals are so much more deliberately planned. It's a start.
I DO recognize, Anart, that this Forum is ONLY about truthful Work on oneself and not lame socializing. The artwork was, I thought, my way of introducing myself slowly. And, yes, I do find myself rebelling against criticism. Hard to accept until it's pounded in past defensiveness. So if I acted rudely or denied criticism I apologize. Denial is a useless thing to hold on to while trying to be strong in so many other ways. I will try harder.

My remark about brutal honesty is about honesty with yourself - to attempt to see the parts of yourself that you hide most strongly - from yourself. That is being brutal with the self. Rebelling against criticism and defensiveness is par for the course when we identify more with our programs (our false personality) than with our real selves - and that describes pretty much everyone. I didn't accuse you of being rude, because you weren't rude - I merely pointed out that you're running programs - something that EVERYONE does. At some point, you're going to realize that everything you think/feel/do is exactly the same as what everyone else thinks/feels/does in defense of the false personality. ALL of it. The day you viscerally realize that, a whole new world will open for you.

Not sure if you've read Mme de Salzmann's First Initiation, though you probably have. If you can see yourself in each line of this piece (with no exceptions) then you'll be ahead of the game.

Mme de Salzmann said:
You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.
 
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